We will see what Ann has to say on this. In my experience if a rose is infected in the fall and it becomes systemic. The rose will come back infected and ugly as soon as it starts to regrow in spring. The fact that it came up healthy and had a nice bloom very much suggests that it just recently became infected. You were either successful with your cut back in fall or what you saw was not rrd.

Do you or your neighbors use a herbicide (such as a weed and feed on the lawns)?

I do, and I'm sure my neighbor does as well. I literally hand spread my weed and feed, and in the case of the double knock out and the red hybrid tea, they are in a raised bed, about 8 inches higher than the lawn around it.

This can't be herbicide damage when you consider how it came back. Why didn't the symptoms show earlier?

When did you and or your neighbor apply this season's weed and feed?

I am sorry for sounding dumb, but what is RRD and how often does it affect Roses? Can it be prevented with good care or a product to not allow it to show up in the first place? Thank you

Mike

RRD stands for rose rosette disease. It is a virus that is killing roses across the country. Mostly found east of the rocky mountains. If you do a search on here 100's of posts will come up.

Ann Peck has, is and always will be the expert on here regarding this dreaded disease. I think she has had just about enough of having to deal with it.

Firstly, can anyone clearly articulate any differences between RRD symptoms and herbicide damage symptoms?

Secondly, I noticed earlier today that I have even more roses which showed RRD-like symptoms last year, got cut down flush to the ground for winter, came back up in the spring, grew quite a bit with perfectly normal growth and now are showing funky weird growth.

Lastly, one of my neighbors said they have not done any herbicide applications this year. The other neighbor admitted applying the liquid spray herbicide on a windy day. :( Just awesome. Will share pics tomorrow.

I am looking forward to your pictures. I swear that a rrd infected rose can not come back perfectly healthy. But my roses are usually growing from the ground up. However on roses with good cane after winter the newest growth coming off of any root infected areas. Will show rrd.

Herbicide damage is more than possible with what you describe. The symptoms I can think of that you should not see with herbicide include red rubbery growth super hyper thorniness. very fast growth and witches brooms. These are some of the things that you would see in the spring growth after a late fall infection of rrd.

I am relatively sure that I mistook herbicide damage for rrd on two occasions about ten years ago. I'll never know for sure thou. I was killing weeds in a path. The rose roots ran under this area. I react really quick to odd growth cause I was tired of losing rose to rrd. All of my other rrd was clear cut no doubt about it. Your pics will be interesting.

Patty, thank you very much. I hope I never see that around here otherwise all mine will end up ripped out. I can't deal with those kind of issues..Bad enough I have to worry about borers, other diseases, mold or bad winters..

Mike

It's not just herbicide damage, which IMO, looks very different. But in the spring or if you just fertilized or had a lot of rain, the roses can put on new growth quickly and sometimes it looks a bit off. So you shouldn't panic, but observe. After all, RRD makes the rose do things it normally does, but in excess or aberrantly.

The following was asked:

"Firstly, can anyone clearly articulate any differences between RRD symptoms and herbicide damage symptoms?"

H. Kuska comment: I assume that you are aware of the parallel thread.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/4700321/ugh-rrdnot-my-roses-though-thankfully?n=42

I just posted a link there:

" Please see the pictures posted on the link below:

https://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subthumb.cfm?sub=4248

This link came from the statement:

"Photographs that may be helpful in assisting with disease diagnosis are available at www.forestryimages.org/browse/subthumb.cfm?sub=4248.

Which appeared in a June 21, 2017 article.

http://www.ballpublishing.com/GrowerTalks/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=22185 "

Here is what herbicide damage looks like:

I've had both in my yard and they are very distinct. As I've said many times new growth can look suspicious and it should be monitored, but once it turns green and begins to look more 'normal', you are ok. And if you have RRD eventually it will look so bad that there will be no doubt. Like this:

Hi Buford, I think you're right, when a plant looks like your last photo, it's rrd and needs to be removed. The first 2 photos is what I would identify as herbicide damage, but it could be rrd.

I'm not sure that waiting for new growth is the correct decision, it gives time for the virus to spread.

In your own yard where you know the plant's history, it would be easier to make an informed decision.

History is important. For example: Distorted foliage showing on many established plants suddenly, probably not rrd. Distorted foliage starts on one branch and spreads to branches around it, suspect a virus.

Valrose stated: "History is important. For example: Distorted foliage showing on many established plants suddenly, probably not rrd. Distorted foliage starts on one branch and spreads to branches around it, suspect a virus."

H.Kuska comment: Yes, this has been the understanding in at least one other thread and this is part of my suspicion in the parallel thread concerning the appearance of severe damage in 74 of 75 bushes the spring after no apparent damage.

Please see a similar comment in the thread below.

See: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1649387/rosette-disease?n=13

--------------------------------------------------

Concerning the still repeated idea of "Here is what herbicide damage looks like:...." as if all types of herbicide damage will look like that: https://sites.google.com/site/roserosettevirus/home

-------------------------------------------------

Back to the statement:

"Firstly, can anyone clearly articulate any differences between RRD symptoms and herbicide damage symptoms?"

H.Kuska comment: maybe it would be helpful if Texas A and M would use some of the grant money to post pictures and descriptions of conditions for each rose that passes the molecular test AND post pictures and descriptions of conditions of the roses that failed the test.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

When looking at the post of pictures of roses that have rose rosette virus (that I brought attention to) please keep in mind that there is no description of how the determinations were made. If they were not based on molecular testing, their value is very limited (in my mind).

In the forestry images link does it say anywhere how many of those roses were tested and came up as positive for rrv.

I have seen limited photos of herbicide damage most dealing with plants other than rose. Then of course there are many types of herbicides with new ones entering the field. I would like to see 165 photos of as many cases of herbicide damage as possible.

Patty:. Some the images in the detail info says that the roses were confirmed positive by testing.

It took this photo yesterday at one of our jobs, it's herbicide damage on a Drift rose. It does resemble some of the photos of RRD. Once again history is important, all roses in the bed showed damage and there were dead weeds.

No, it doesn't look like RRD, which you obviously have never seen and ignore any pictures of.

Thank you Valrose I was curious.

Answer-----

RRD

Photographer:

Jennifer Olson

Organization:

Oklahoma State University

Descriptor:

Symptoms

Description:

Slight upward leaf roll has been observed on several rose cultivars. Rose rosette virus has been confirmed by laboratory testing.

Image type:

Field

Host:

'Lady Elsie May' Rose (Rosa hybrida cv. 'Lady Elsie May')

Interesting discussions folks, I guess we can't say any evidence exists of symptoms showing up more with heat?

And also it looks like most folks can agree that hyper thorniness is RRD and not herbicide damage?

I also wonder, when you have cut something down to the ground and it still comes back up with fresh ugly growth, could that also be herbicide damage?

I'll be home today, been traveling, but will be posting pics of my plants in the late afternoon.

Concerning hyper thorniness, this is from my web page:

" Concerning the possibility of a visible determination. Some people have stated that they feel that the diagnostic characteristic of RRD is the excessive growth of thorns.

I am hesitant to include the "excessive growth of thorns" rule as it may only apply to exclude damage from certain types of herbicides and not others with different modes of action. Also. often healthy young growth can have closely spaced needle like thorns which are not present in older canes. The opposite (no thorns, no RRD) is also NOT a dependable diagnostic that the cause is not RRV. Ann Peck (see E-book link at the bottom of this article) points out: "Hyper thorniness is not a dependable indication of RRD, it does alert rosarians to be vigilant. It appears on some HTs, but sick OGRs and roses related to 'R. multiflora' may have thorns no denser than usual. Further confusing diagnoses, many classes of old garden roses are extremely thorny and no one could look at a sick rugosa, damask, or spinossissima and declare it’s hyper thorniness to be aberrant. Likewise basal breaks on some healthy HTs appear thornier closer to the bud union, but become less thorny with increasing healthy growth. This year, I have also seen a characteristic of some roses from cold hardy breeding programs to have denser thorns near the base; these roses have a built in rodent deterrent that I had not noticed until a question from New Brunswick about the possibility of RRD in that part of Canada.""

https://sites.google.com/site/roserosettevirus/home

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning your question: "I also wonder, when you have cut something down to the ground and it still comes back up with fresh ugly growth, could that also be herbicide damage?

To be safe the general recommendation is to remove at that point, but yes it could be herbicide damage if there is still herbicide in the soil.

I'm certainly not an expert but in my yard when I have cut back a rose with what I truly believe to be rrd. When it came back but rrd was already established in the plant. It looks like Buford's photo of rrd. Nothing about it looks anything like any herbicide photos that I have ever seen.

Yeah well we keep learning I guess. One heck of a disease this is.

I was surprised that the government was willing to spend that amount of money on an ornamental problem. I sort of rationalized it by thinking that those trained to do research in this project will be available to tackle food based virus problems.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3177777/hr-2943-possibly-affecting-rose-rosette-research?n=28

Braverichard - I wish I knew. Personally, I have significant spider mite infestations during hot, dry spells which, I suppose, could translate into more RRD.

Valrose - that is interesting about the leaf curl. I've heard of leaf elongation or distortion but curl. One of my SdlM has had this on two stems the past couple of months and wasn't sure what to think of it. However, today I noticed these growths coming from almost every leaf node on two different stems. They appear like bolting heads of lettuce.

Dave is that normal for that rose because it does look suspicious.

No, not normal at all. My other two SdlM have not had the leaf curling or these weird growths. I'm debating on pulling it out now or watch and wait for more definitive signs of RRD.

Dave let us know what happens. Wouldn't blame you for ripping it out. I'd be scratching my head over that one.

"This year, I have also seen a characteristic of some roses from cold hardy breeding programs to have denser thorns near the base; these roses have a built in rodent deterrent that I had not noticed until a question from New Brunswick about the possibility of RRD in that part of Canada.""

Woah, I need these roses!

It appeared that some/many/most rosarians felt that 10-20 years ago everything that was needed to be known about rose viruses was already known. Very little new academic research was being done, and many academic scientists were not keeping up with new advances such as new detection methods and new ways of thinking such as understanding that plants have an immune system.

In searching back through my old files, I found this one that the readers may find interesting:

http://mbio.asm.org/content/5/2/e01003-14.full

At least 2 different academic groups e-mailed me that they had lost their funding and were no longer doing rose virus research.

For example:

2-7-2013

To: Henry Kuska

"
Thank
you for the updates. Unfortunately we were unable to secure any funds for this
project and we will wrap things up in the next month or so with the completion
of the paper.

Kindest
regards,

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

------------------------------------------------------

H.Kuska comment: Nature is complex. Please encourage your young acquaintances to consider a major in studying Nature, particularly the plant sciences as food resources are being stretched thin.

erin, try adding a silicate to your roses

Title: Boosting silica levels in wheat leaves reduces grazing by rabbits

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ps.1302/abstract;jsessionid=BBB03B5919E508A83E022EE67016B1B8.d03t04?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

Even larger animals may be discouraged:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1439179109000504?via%3Dihub

Excerpt from an article that may help distinguish RRD from herbicide damage.

Some herbicide sprays that have drifted over onto rosebush foliage can cause foliage distortion that looks very much like Rose Rosette, having the witches broom appearance and the same coloration to the foliage. The tell-tale difference is that the growth rate of the sprayed foliage and canes will not be extremely vigorous as the truly infected bush will be. - See more at: Rose Rosette Disease

Dave, that growth does look troubling.

Henry thank you, cool tip

Good tip Henry, and going by that tip for sure I'm certain that the growths I have seen in my yard are most likely RRD and not herbicide damage. Sure, that tip alone is not the sole criteria to go by but even after you factor in other criteria, it looks like it is bad news for me on these plants.

I finally made it back home after a 4 day business trip that turned into a 2 week one (it was great though).

To everyone, tell me if any of these pics look more like herbicide damage than RRD.

Pink double knock out, showed symptoms last year, got cut down to the ground, came up in spring, grew to 3 feet, bloomed well, all normal growth, now doing this.

Here is some new growth from my Prairie Sunrise that just showed up, this plant has never shown signs of RRD but is next to a Knockout that had to be removed due to RRD.

Teasing Georgia... showed RRD signs in spring last year, that one cane was cut off form the base, showed no more signs until now.

Cancan... showed RRD signs in the summer last year, that one cane was cut off form the base, showed no more signs until now.

Pink Don Juan... showed RRD signs in the fall last year, that one cane was cut off form the base, showed no more signs until now.

Thats just sickening and is about as rrd as it gets. Sad to say you are down wind of me. Obviously I'm no expert. The only thing I add is if the new rrd is up on the end of a cane it should be a new infection. The last photo looks as thou it was indeed a systemic infection as it appears to have had rrd since it emerged.

Well a big thing for all of us is that all these symptoms started showing up when it got hot. The spring growth and blooms were all normal, giving me false hope that I was able to prune off the virus infections. Either the heat brings it on or the stress of the heat does, might just be an aspect of RRD that has not been researched.

Research shows that once a plant is infected by RRD it is very unlikely, if not impossible, that pruning can eliminate it. Traces of the virus can be found all over the plant despite it not showing symptoms. I'm guess that as the plant started growing, the virus was also reproducing and it took awhile for the virus to infect enough of the tissue for the damage to be visible.

Very unlikely, but not impossible, I've done it successfully three times, and those plants certainly had RRD and not herbicide damage. Those 3 have now had 3 virus-free years in my garden.

So sorry about the loss of the these roses, braverichard. Best wishes.

I just want to mention that Round Up and other similar herbicides can drift 30 feet on a still day. So when windy, even further. also here is a link to Ann Peck's definitive website on RRD. http://www.rosegeek.com/index.htm I lost 50 or 60 roses to what I thought was RRD to find that my mother was spraying Round-Up in my yard when we were not home.

Dr. Tzanetakis reported in a combined post and the pre review copy that he posted on this forum that when they checked Julia Child 3 months after placing the mites on it:

"3.2 Systemic movement
A total of 20 RRD symptomatic and RRV-positive ‘Julia Child’ plants were tested for virus movement to the root. All samples amplified the internal control indicating the integrity of RT-PCR and 50% of the roots tested positive for the virus as determined by sequencing all amplicons."

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3575226/resistance-to-rose-rosette-virus?n=7

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/4247839/preprint-resistance-to-rose-rosette-and-transmission-attributes?n=19

So that was 3 full months after infecting the rose before it was tested. I have without a doubt saved a rose by cutting a cane the second I see a problem. Given so many varied weather conditions and differences in roses it is likely impossible to predict a timeline for how long before rrd becomes systemic in a rose.

I dug out a grafted rose once that had been cut back after showing RRD symptoms, came back with new growth that was symptomatic, so I figured that the infection had become systemic, I dug it out and later on Dr Huey came back up from left over roots but looked perfectly clean and free of any symptoms.

Seems reasonable that some roses may be saved by removal of RRD growth before it spreads to the entire plant. Early detection would be key.

If you get it early enough, and the aberrant growth is at the top of the cane, and you remove that can, you do have a chance to save the plant. I have done that twice on roses that are fine years later.

Buford Sometimes so hard to separate fact from fantasy on forums, but you have convinced me.

I have had success when caught early also. Bag that cane before cutting or try to be gentle when removing it.

Someshere I read to cover it in hairspray before cutting to immobilize the mites. I'm just praying this never visits my garden. I feel for you all.

Back to the temperature behavior.

"The effect of temperature on Wheat streak mosaic virus (WSMV) replication and in planta movement was examined using a virus (WSMV-GFP) tagged with green-fluorescence protein. A rapid increase in virus accumulation was observed with increasing temperatures beginning at 15°C in Tomahawk, but this response to temperature is delayed with virus accumulation increasing beginning at 25°C in Mace. Some wheat plants that were not systemically infected at 10 and 15°C were found to be infected with the virus in regrowth shoots later at 27°C, suggesting that WSMV moves at undetectable levels under suboptimal temperatures, but rapidly begins to replicate and spread in planta under optimal temperatures. These results indicate that temperature played an important role in WSMV replication, movement, and disease development in susceptible and resistant wheat cultivars. "

https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/programs-projects/project/?accnNo=424225&fy=2016

The virus WSMV (Wheat Streak Mosaic Virus) is not an emaravirus, but the above study suggests that it may be useful to add a green-fluorescence protein to Rose Rosette Virus and study its temperature behavior.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#newwindow=1&q=green-fluorescence+protein+tag+to+virus&spf=1499315033843