Attempting self design of kitchen, please advise...
Comments (36)
decoenthusiaste
6 years agoFirst of all, your work triangle need's adjusting. You'll be happier if you can allow 48" walkways around the island, so you might make the island a bit skinnier, and move it toward the large opening. Try to keep the distance between sink/fridge/stove at 9' or less. The fridge needs to be handy to the sink for ease of offloading and prepping foods. I know you have a prep sink in the island, but it is in the traffic path from the mudroom so that won't work well. You also want room to stand in front of the fridge with the doors open. I'd prefer it in the stove location. Also consider enough room so that in future you could use an armoire style with pull out bottom freezer. You might want to eliminate the breakfast nook and go for a dropped breakfast table at the end of the island. I see you're already planning for legs on that end. Then you can use the nook area for a larger pantry and perhaps build it around your mom's hutch as the centerpiece of that end of the room.
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6 years agoUse the online Ikea kitchen planner for easy layouts and visualization. Then talk to a professional kitchen planner who can work with your ideas and budget. Are you already familiar with make-up air requirements for a your big 48" range's hood?
http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_US/rooms_ideas/splashplanners_new.html
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6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoRouting all of your traffic through the kitchen is a giant mistake. That door needs to move down to a straight shot through an aisle so that you don't have yet another corner in the kitchen. Cramming in a 48" range 6" from a corner is a giant mistake. Part of the reason for choosing a larger range is so multiple cooks can work at one time. No way can that happen here. Cramming a giganticous fridge and a full height pantry into another corner is another mistake. They need to occupy the bottom wall only, and the doorway needs to be there, not bisecting the other wall. . You aren't counting panels, fillers, or actual proper clearances, so none of this will actually work in real life, or measure out properly. A halfhearted attempt at symmetry seems to control zone placement, to the real detriment of functionality. Not drawing to scale is really really hurting you. Some things just shouldn't be DIY.
You need an actual Pro here for the whole home design, and the kitchen. Too many truly fundamental errors in just the kitchen. Good design saves you money. Bad design wastes it. You're costing yourself a lot of money here.
qam999
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoThat plan needs a lot of work. I'd recommend using a kitchen designer as a good one will actually provide net savings and a better outcome. Just a few thoughts - NOT comprehensive:
1. Island is so deep that you will be unable to reach parts of the surface
- Seating area far too tight. You've drawn the chairs as if 2 of them could fit in the small prep sink, i.e. 6" diameter, whereas 18" x 18" would be more realistic. Table is drawn as 18" diameter...this is a possible size but would allow each person barely space for 1 small mug. No plates!
- Everything should be drawn to true scale
- This is a good size kitchen...about 14' x 20'? You have plenty of space for all the functions you show. Just needs to be arranged correctly
- Do you need 2 seating areas?
- On the bright side, you've got your garbage pullout next to prep sink - wish I had done the same!
jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoTy deco enthusiast I may bring island down and decrease brkfst nook side by 6" to make a def 42+" walk. The prep sink was added so that work triangle flowed and large sink was strictly for cleanup. Breakfast nook is a must.jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoA bit confused Flo... 1st don't see where you get 6" on side of range b4 entry. There is a main Entry on other lower side of 1/2 Ba wall, this one shown is just to bring groceries in when entering from garage. The chairs should be the only thing that is not drawn to scale as they Will be pushed in when not in use which is basically all the time.
Is it a mistake all to place fridge and pantry in one side next to prep sink and island? I don't understand why.
I will seek the website offered, ty. I will not be using a pro designer as I have my builder that will tweak prior as GC. I know you all say to have a separate designer but I do believe that given some suggestions I can tweak this myself with the help of the Internet and the knowledge that I've accumulated and a great GC that is honest and highly skilled. I just have yet to show him this plan because I meet with him next week. We leave in two weeks from Texas to Minnesota where this will be built.jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoAlso, I know that 48 inches is the most preferred if you will have two cooks in the kitchen however mine will be one cook and I read that 42 inches is sufficient with 36 being very minimum which I do not want. Is this not true?_sophiewheeler
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoBuilders are NOT designers. Neither are you. Nor did you stay at a Holiday Inn last night. This, put plainly, is NOT good. It's bad. Large kitchens can function much worse than small ones, as there are a lot more ways to get it wrong. Stick with whatever you do well that makes you money and pay a pro with that money. Stay in your lane. Start over with an architect for the house, and a kitchen designer for the kitchen.
Sammy
6 years agoHey Jen-
All in all, your layout is not bad, especially for an amateur. I do think, however, that you'd be more likely to receive the kind of help you're seeking by posting here: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/kitchbath
Good luck with your build!
jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoSophie, although I haven't asked for advice on here before I have heard several forums speak very negatively that you offer negative solutions and put people down. Unless you want to please not comment on my post I guess I will report you to Houzz. I do hope that people like you are very rare on here because we seek positive solutions not put downs and you need to do something in your life that makes you happy because you're not happy.
That said I hope you will stay in your lane as well and not mention holiday ends or whatever else you need to mention to get your point across that you're rude. I am fully aware that general contractors are not designers and you obviously are not a pro.jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoAlso, if hiring a pro means possibly finding somebody like you I prefer not to go that route.acm
6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago6" from corner (on left) not doorway. it will feel crowded standing there.
I think there is at least one person on this site who runs a catering business from a 36" stove, so 48" is hugely overkill for most folks, and certainly not worth wrecking other aspects of the design for. also, as noted above, the vent hood for such a huge surface sucks so much air that you need to install a central source of make-up air (like a new component of the HVAC system) to keep your house from becoming vacuum-sealed closed every time you cook.
what caught my attention is all the corner base cabinets -- how are you handling those so that the storage is accessible? you can't put a lazy susan in that tight corner by the range, so that means a blind cabinet with a kidney-shaped pull-out, at best, which will limit your options on other cabinets close to the sink. the corner in the lower-right is also awkward -- you can fit a lazy susan cabinet there, but the refrigerator will extend past it probably 6-10 inches on the left (even a "counter-depth" fridge will extend 4-5 inches), and then you have a fulll-depth pantry on the right, so I think that corner will feel like a cave. it might be better to put your fridge where you have the hutch, on the top wall (where it will also be close to the living space, for grabbing drinks without bothering the cook) and then reconfigure the lower wall to have a better stretch of cabinets (straight), with the hutch maybe going where either the fridge or pantry are currently shown.
I also don't understand the island. (a) mix of soapstone and butcherblock counters -- why? and what sort of seam at the join, that will work and be able to be kept clean? (b) you show legs, but also a pullout on the right, so not sure if you're visualizing this as a table, like in deco's examples, or as a continuation of island cabinetry + overhang. (c) I don't understand what cabinetry is under the island at all -- you just have a list rather than a layout. if you're picturing a double row of cabinets, then are you prepared to have to crawl under the overhang (and move stools) to get to the second row? if you're picturing an L-shape of cabinets along the top and right, to get in the microwave drawer and so forth, then how are you supporting the rest of this ginormous piece of stone? it will be an engineering tangle! (you might be happier building in a place for the microwave in the zone on the lower wall, whether drawer or cabinet, although that would put it pretty far away from your prep areas if you use it a lot.)
just my first reactions. this is a large room, but since you're taking a quarter of it for an eating area, it's not a monster kitchen. I'd rethink the giant stove and the overall layout. kitchens are not good realms of design for civilians or for contractors, as there are many many considerations (and options you might not know about) that influence each other. you can probably have what you want, but a specialist is the best way to make it actually work. (and very few contractors do the cooking in their households, so they're often hilariously naive about good working kitchen layouts!!)
felizlady
6 years agoIs your 48" range only 24" deep, or is it deeper? You may need an extra inch or two for the gas supply line behind the stove, which may push it out further. Then measure from the island to the edge of the open oven door. Is there room to stand in front of the oven and bend to bring the heavy large roasting pan out of the oven?
42" between cabinetry and other appliances is workable. My dishwasher door extends 27" from the cabinetry when open. I have 44" between the island and dishwasher and it gives me plenty of room to walk through when unloading the dishwasher.
You need to show the actual measurements along the sink wall. What size cabinet is your sink installed in? Does the 39" counter space indicate the size of those two cabinets or is that just the clear space of counter?
The layout looks good. You just need to know if 42" from cabinets to island is correct. Do your counters overhang the cabinets and does your island counter overhang the island? Measure from the counter to the island counter. A 1-inch overhang on each counter reduces the space to 40" between cabinetry and island. That becomes more important when the oven door or dishwasher door is open. If those corrected measurements seem tighter, you could consider making your island 4" smaller in width and length.jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoYes, ty. Great advice. It's counter area. I think it may be best to reduce island to 90"x54" as opposed to 96"x60".jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoNow ty Linda, first off. But in regards to Sophie I don't care how good she has with that attitude and speaking down to people...stay in my lane and other insults are unprofessional as is she. I don't care how much you think she knows she's not somebody I care to deal with.
Now, that said, I love your idea of oval table as I did consider that because it does allow for more elongated seating area and more open walkway. I do understand you're telling me that it's too much casual seating but I do want three barstools at the bar because our kids do like to sit there and watch what I'm doing. I'm loving your idea of pantry next to fridge, would that be in the same back wall? The formal dining is shown in this pic attached. I'm appreciative of your positive criticism and advice. I am possibly too large on appliances and seating, but it's my dream kitchen and my husband and I will be opening up a restaurant in four years so I may do some catering out of it. I'm looking ahead.jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoAcm, I will consider moving 48" by 24" depth (minus knobs and gas line) towards 3' doorway a bit allowing more space in corner cabinetry. Is that okay, though, to not center range sling back wall as it will be slightly off centered doing so?
As for island having 30" butcher block and other part soapstone it's nothing I've seen but decided to have. It allows adequate space to remove fresh produce/veggies from refrigerator directly to prep sink to be washed then directly to chopping block for dicing and slicing with waste going directly into garbage below butcher block. I want majority soapstone as I've loved the timeless look and prefer one uniform and seamless slab flush with wood for easy cleanup.
not been seen by me, but I want it for injen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoSorry about spelling on last post, I don't know what happened.tfitz1006
6 years agoThe best money we spent was on a kitchen designer. Ten years later, there is not one thing I would change. I recommend. My experience with the GC is that he was great at following the plan and offered a few suggestions, but the KD is the one who made it work really well. Why not at least interview a couple?
Denise Marchand
6 years agoI am so jealous of your huge kitchen and the space you have to build your dream kitchen! You can accommodate all your wishes and it seems you know exactly what you want/need. It's just making it functional and beautiful.
Is it my understanding that the wall entering the kitchen has a ten foot opening, with the other end backing a bathroom?
If so, everyone sitting at the kitchen table should be able to enjoy the view to the lake. That is definitely where I would have my first cup of coffee!
I don't know about you, but I am a very messy cook. When entering the kitchen, it would help my head if there was some kind of order.
That being said, here is a floor plan that might work for you.
1) Locate the table centered in front of the lake view window.
2) "L" tall pantry on the left of the hall door to the mudroom and garage. I moved the door to the left, if this can be done. It would line up the edge of the island with the doorway and help with the traffic flow through the kitchen. If it cannot be moved, that's ok, there will just be smaller cabinets on either side of the range.
3) I love a butcher block on the island with the trash right underneath it. Good idea.
4) By locating the stove on the right of the hall doorway, it can be a gorgeous cooking station (must have a pot filler). It will be the focal point as entering, but just tucked away enough.
5) Locate the refrigerator on the bathroom common wall. They are always so big and not great to look at. By having it on that wall, it not only hides the size, it's easily accessible for everyone.
6) One of the most brilliant ideas these days is a breakfast and coffee station. Next to the refrigerator is a perfect place.
Banquette near window facing lake Window at sink can be off center Banquette at center window Banquette at window facing lakeDenise Marchand
6 years agoOther inspiration pics
Open above range Island with butcher block Sweet banquette at center window.Note woodwork and mouldings around window
jmm1837
6 years agoOP - I'm no pro, not even a talented amateur, but I've read enough kitchen design dilemmas (and had enough kitchens in my time) to have a few concerns here.
First, I think part of your problem is that you have a sketch of a kitchen, but not a plan. You really need to get those dimensions down accurately. One of the biggest problems I read about is people planning their kitchens and failing to measure properly. Some forget to account for the differences between outside wall dimensions and internal wall dimensions. Others forget that doors and drawers need to have space to open - so there may need to be fillers or bigger spaces for refrigerators. There was one dilemma about a person who couldn't open a lower cabinet because it was blocked by the handle of the oven door (which appears to be a problem with your corner cabinet, BTW). So, first suggestion would be, redo this sketch as an actual plan with accurate measurements of all dimensions.
Then, as others have pointed out, think about the size of the island, which seems to me to be bigger than it needs to be to be functional. Have a look again at that corner area between the fridge and pantry: I'm a great believer in using drawers for pretty much everything below counter height, but you couldn't really use drawers there without wasting a lot of space. And it's not clear to me that you have adequate clearance between fridge and island to actually open the door, or to allow passage between the two. But again, that's hard to tell without real dimensions. I think, actually that the suggestion of having the fridge and pantry side by side on the same wall would be a vast improvement.
You also need to be more clear about what sort of cabinetry and drawers you want, under the counters and below the island. And please bear in mind the horror stories about improperly supported 15" overhangs. You absolutely have to get the cabinet design and support structures right on that one.
Kitchens are pretty complex beasts, and I personally wouldn't try to design my own, but if you're sure you have the skills to do it, then take the next step and do the proper measurements and schematics.
_sophiewheeler
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoThe dining table is right next to the island is right next to the banquette. Too much eating seating, and not enough separation of the more formal dining space. What exactly is being cooked for such a relatively small family that needs 48" of stovetop cooking space and two ovens? Why that over a more ergonomic and efficient 36" induction cooktop and separate wall ovens?
Are you aware that your location is one of the most restrictive in the nation in the enforcement of the required heated make up air system? Plan to spend 10-15K on that expense alone, and that does not include the range vent, or the giganticous range shoved into that corner. That will be another 10-15K.
With custom building a home starting at $200 a square foot on the low no frills end and rapidly escalating from there, every bit of poor design costs you double to create, and then to fix later. IF it can ever be fixed. Poor design wastes so much money in discomfort, workflow inefficiency, redundancy, family sociability, and energy efficiency.
oOamyOo _
6 years agoI'm not a pro and I designed my own kitchen. It's fun and you'll love the sense of pride you have when it's done. The issue I see has been noted by others: island is too big. There is not enough space between the table area and the island to allow for a comfortable walkway when people are seated at the table. Good luck!The Cook's Kitchen
6 years agoJen, posting the larger home diagram confirms that you need to stop and rethink the overall home plan, with the help of a good professional. 3 eating areas so close together are overkill. The dining area is informal already, rendering the banquette area moot. The approach and access to the home is not well organized, and the circulation paths involve too many dead ends. The home has a lot of expensive to build square footage, but will live like a much smaller house due to the inefficiency of the design.
The diagram is a great jumping off point to use as an adjacency diagram, to sit down with an architect and show which rooms you think should be next to one another. It gets to the heart of the fact that you think all of the public space should be connected, and that you prefer the master space be well separated from the secondary bedrooms.
Those ideas are what you will be getting across to your professional. Much of what you have needs to be rearranged in order to accomplish those central goals though. That is the value of the architect. They can view the meta picture. They see the forest for the trees. Your ideas, as ideas, are do not create a workable, buildable, home plan. It IS a great jumping off point for that conversation with a Professional though!
jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoWhere to begin Sophie. First, your opinion of induction with wall ovens is just that. Your opinion. I opt for 48" range for reasons stated earlier if you read my comments to other people. In four years we plan on opening our own restaurant with possibility of catering out of the home. And if I want casual dining (3@island and a small corner nook) with formal not in kitchen conveniently overlooking lake view just behind in its own designated area, okay. Many do it this way. And the comment about staying in my lane, staying at holiday inn and now this being the most something or other in the entire nation...stay away from my post please for the second request. I've reported your rudeness and do not care to say it again.
Thank you all for your input. I've got done rethinking to put into this and will adjust my design to include better flow for walkway as well as eliminating the cornered brkfst nook benching to be a single bench seat that same windowed wall allowing better direct walk from living area toward back doorway leading to hall/mudroom/garage. Also I will slide 48" range over about 6-12" towards right in doorway direction. Also put pantry right next to refrigerator on that same back wall. All positive help is so greatly appreciated, thank you!remodeling1840
6 years agoJen, we moved into a house that has butcher block at the prep sink. It is scratched from the knives used directly on it. There is no way I can completely clean it. Dirt hides in the cuts and I know bacteria are happily living there. I never cut anything on it--only use boards that can be thoroughly cleaned.jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoI agree, the architect is next to assist in putting what I'm obviously as an amateur trying to relay on paper. I know exactly what works for our family and the architect will get it better. The overkill on dining fits the needs of our purpose for our dream lake home. The 2 casual spaces are for kids/grandkids visiting the lake home. My husband and I manage and run restaurants and will be starting our very own in about four years with catering on the side.
This will be our forever home. My aging mother currently lives down the road and I see her issues with her home having continual Company up to enjoy the lake home. So, I do not find fun seating options to my kids who live in the kitchen too much, it will work if better routed, I agree.
I chose a gas double oven over the stovetop/wall stacked ovens for asthetic reasons (just love the focal point of dbl range) and we need 6 burners with grill top if you've ever witnessed our huge morning breakfasts. I run all burners at same time-I cook fast and furious.jen ukutegbe
Original Author6 years agoDenise, thank you so much for that photo of sweet banquet on centered window!!! I love it and it will work better than my plan yet allow so much better walk path!Denise Marchand
6 years agoJen, hope it helped. Having designed many kitchens over the years, having people in and out of my way, is key for me. The plan I posted gives you your domain, especially now that you mentioned grandkids. Yum, what's your specialty?
jmm1837
6 years agoPerhaps you should start your own posting. I'm afraid I dont understand your diagram, so a little more detail about what you want to do might be helpful.
The Cook's Kitchen