much clearer now, thank you MaWizz and everybody:) your explanations make huge sense.

(well I guess it's a bliss I still remember multiplication table..)

I think the rule of thumb is flawed so I'm surprised by how close we are all coming to it. Like if you buy a house with a new kitchen that isn't to your taste, spending 15% to get a new one isn't going to pay off. And I feel like it's used by sales people to justify spending more.

My house is a modest 1050 sqft bungalow in HCOLA. When I bought it I thought the kitchen looked old but cute in a vintage-way. Once I started using it, I realized how bad the layout and condition was, and remodeling was very expensive due to the home age, labor costs, and California regulations. I think the (mostly) finished product looks great and will increase value, but I don't think buyers would realize how much it cost to achieve (especially doing it by the book) and reward accordingly over the old, cute kitchen.

Probably about 5%. We used IKEA cabinets, plus a lot of DIY.

Our property value has increased by over a third in the past 12 months (we're in NYC metro area, extremely desirable) but our place was a gross, old, filthy rental dump when we purchased in spring of 2016. We did a full gut reno.

Being that we are in an "urban hipster neighborhood", residents here very much like the big box store look.

Much of our budget went simply for electrical, gas and plumbing lines, the things you don't see. Our Ikea kitchen was budget friendly, we then bought higher end stainless appliances.

But in answer to your question, cabinets/appliances/counter/etc, ours was around 4% if we're not including electric, gas and plumbing, based on our purchase price. We paid 380G last year, and realtors say they would list our condo at 620G+ if we put on market today.

that's interesting Janie..aren't hipsters supposed to prefer things that are more..unique? them being hipsters?

I'm just educating myself as much as I can on ..well everything, not being born and bred here, so sorry for the off topic, and feel free to shut me every time:)

maybe it's the contractors who are using the 10-15% when they estimate? might explain why renovation costs are absurdly high in upscale neighborhoods and more reasonable a few towns over...but even if you get the contractor from a few towns over the estimates don't seem to drop much?

Beachem and islandgarden you make a good point that my dh and I were recently discussing ...we had visited a very nice local kitchen and bath shop and during our visit I asked the KD based on our size kitchen if he could give me an estimate? He said where do you live? I told him then he gave me the estimate :( WHAT?!

Hi Aprilneverends,

Yes, you are correct! They will listen to their vinyls while using an espresso machine that equals a car payment, it truly boggles the mind, lol!

@islandgarden and Mawizz

Contractors definitely inflate quotes based on location. When I had two houses in different cities that are separated by only two miles, I would use my old address as contact and get quotes based on plans.

The price would come in at a reasonable cost then jump 5-10X when I tell them where the work location is at. They would tell me that it's farther for their people to drive to my new house do it costs more and many other excuses. None of them ever give a valid reason like your permit cost is more.

It's a hoot to hear since you have to drive by my new house to reach my old house that's two miles down the road.

I always had to pay more and just use the contractors that only bump me by the lowest inflated percentage.

Wow beachem ridiculous!

Beachem- so true! My husband and I always laugh that contractors increase their fees 2-3x as they come down the driveway and see the dock and view.

This is premature (demo starts next week!), but we expect to spend about 15% of our home's value on our kitchen remodel, excluding appliances and including lots of DIY.

That percentage seemed high to me until I considered how low local real estate prices are here. Median home sale price is ~$250k, and our home (which is relatively old but also relatively modernized for our area) is probably close to that. Prices were much lower when we bought several years ago.

I don't consider it an investment. But I do recognize the fact that building our dream kitchen in our current house will prevent us from wanting to move and starting over with a new build or remodel (and thus spending a LOT more $ and time).

@johnsoro yikes dock and view is kaching!!!!

I hate the habit of giving bids only after they get your address. I know it's for pricing.

In one of our previous discussions, a pro said that if you can't or won't spend what your neighborhood is valued at then you shouldn't live there. I thought it was a warped mentality.

*" Like if you buy a house with a new kitchen that isn't to your taste, spending 15% to get a new one isn't going to pay off."*

Well it might pay off -- but just not in resale price. Whatever I spent on my project is already paying off in my increased enjoyment, comfort, use of my kitchen (and condo). Whether or not it increases my resale value is kind of moot in my market, which is in the middle of a huge housing bubble and the condition of homes is almost immaterial. The resale value of my unit honestly didn't even enter my mind, especially since it won't be a shiny new kitchen in 10 or 15 years when I sell.

Spent $30,000 for a very small kitchen remodel in a $375,000 house.

A little over 6%, and I am going to say something unusual - I wish I'd spent more. I think I overskimped. I wish I'd gotten a better fridge, and cabinets that are maybe one notch higher in quality than what I got. I was so intent on not spending a lot, but in hindsight I think I should have loosened up a bit. I would have liked my kitchen even more (and I do like it) if I'd spent another $10-15k or so. A regret.

I did not skimp as I was doing my once in a lifetime dream kitchen. We have bought two different homes since then and looked at a lot of higher end homes in the process. Based on that shopping experience I'd say most people skimp - maybe unknowingly. I was astonished how many kitchens didn't even have pullouts let alone drawers and rarely a high end appliance.

Skimping is perfectly fine, if the kitchen simply isn't that important to you. And honestly, for many people it isn't. I think my brother is happy as long as there is a microwave to warm up pizza and a fridge for cans of coke :-) He'd rather get take-out than cook.

On the other hand, I spend a lot of time in the kitchen. I love cooking/baking foods from scratch. I love entertaining friends and family. The kitchen is a central part of our home. And I don't expect we'll move from this house for a very long time. So, even if the kitchen remodel costs a lot more money than I could hope to recoup in a hypothetical sale, that doesn't mean it isn't worth it to me.

People don't have a problem spending a lot of money on their hobbies. It just turns out that my house in general, and the kitchen in specific is something I like to enjoy spending time in.

We are also in a high cost of living area. I am about to gut what looks like, at a distance, like a perfectly good kitchen. I was considering just an update at first, but the previous owners, who built the house, did skimp on some of the finishes. It doesn't make sense to put new counters on lower end cabinets. The drawer glides all need to be changed. High end appliances are now 17 years old and it won't make sense to put those in a new kitchen. They've had several service calls since we've owned the house and some features don't work right. So I've gone from a moderate remodel, to a full out gut and replace with high end finishes.

We should be here for another 10 years, so not too worried about resale value.

"and looked at a lot of higher end homes in the process. Based on that
shopping experience I'd say most people skimp - maybe unknowingly. I
was astonished how many kitchens didn't even have pullouts let alone
drawers and rarely a high end appliance."

This is interesting, because what I enjoy most about my kitchen is that it's what I want, not what's considered "high end" or trendy. There are some things that see really common in new "high end" kitchens or upgrades that I didn't want, and wouldn't want. For instance, I absolutely didn't want an ice maker or water dispenser in my refrigerator, and a double oven is the last thing I wanted. So some people's "skimping" might actually be getting what they want.

Then again, maybe they didn't know what options they had.

I really don't feel any need in high end appliances(even though theoretically I'd love something boldly colored lol). I need appliances to work well. that's about it. (which already puts them in mid range price, nowadays..)) Lets face it, I'm not a cook of the century

more than that, people who are very talented cooks, they'll do well just about with everything..plenty of people who I know were amazing cooks in whatever sad conditions they had..I had a roomate in my dorms, the girl could concoct heavenly dishes out of thin air in that very basic dorm kitchen

of course if one is doing a lot of cooking, and entertaining, I can see that having more upscale things will make his life much easier, then why not, of course he/she should outfit his kitchen as he wants it to be if he has the means to do so

I did want water/ice maker in the fridge(not for myself! out of motherly love lol), and I definitely wanted maximum drawers and pullouts, so I got them.

I wanted more glass front cabinets but alas, not enough uppers for that.

I did want a warming drawer..but we had one before, and silly me I didn't use it once during 6 years, I don't even know why..so I signed and decided it's not likely I'd change my ways

sometimes one has limited space. I'm not a great cook plus I have limited space

one of my friends is an amazing cook -like, a wow cook-but her kitchen's my kitchen's size, so she doesn't want to hear even about double ovens(I suggested it to her since they're about to remodel). and she's confident she'd do just as great with one, as she managed until now

April I'm like you I don't feel a real need for high end appliances. I like to cook but all I need is a gas stove or a grill :) too me some of those are a niceties not necessities. Also agree that if it makes things easier or that's important to someone by all means get it! Could be me someday who knows? But I'm happy with my mid range for now :) and no warming drawer for me either.

When I first lived by myself, the landlord had installed the most basic cheap gas stove available. It was was probably 20+ years old, when I moved in. It was extra narrow (24" ?). And after all this time, it was in such bad shape, I managed to accidentally punch a hole through the top.

Surprisingly, as far as cooking performance was concerned, it wasn't the worst stove I have ever used; in fact, given its apparent price-point, if was surprisingly OK if you just baby'd it enough. I cooked some very yummy Thanksgiving dinners on it. But it took days of planning and was quite an elaborate process.

These days, I own my own place and I have a Bluestar range. Cooking is so much more effortless. I always feel that my range intuits what I meant to do and simply does it. Sure, I could still cook on a low-end stove. But I'd rather enjoy cooking than fight with the equipment.

On the other hand, if cooking a big feast isn't really something you look forward to for weeks in advance, you might not even notice the difference between my range and a much cheaper model. So, no need to up the price once you reached your personal "point of diminishing returns".

Geez M you deserve that Bluestar after using what you had! Lol I too do enjoying doing big feasts and hosting parties but yes for me it's more about the planning and prepping ahead not the appliance per se. I usually get the menu down a month or 2 ahead and that helps. Never had a struggle with a mid range appliance but you don't know what you don't know either. I always get a lot of compliments on the food, presentation, and how I can get it all ready so fast. Easy = planning and doing all prep ahead! So I guess with that no need to change up at the moment.

to me, you all deserve gold stars..not just bluestars lol

month in advance? I can only die of anxiety month in advance..very efficiently

I'm building a new house and I'm guessing the cost of the kitchen and dining area (which is part of the kitchen) to come in around 5-8% of the total cost of the house including the land. I'm doing this kitchen for me and DH and not because I think I'll recoup my money. If I was doing it as an investment, I'd have put in less expensive appliances (no integrated fridge or DW) and not have cabinets going to the ceiling.

This is our last hurrah house and we decided to make it how we want.

For instance, I absolutely didn't want an ice maker or water dispenser in my refrigerator, and a double oven is the last thing I wanted. So some people's "skimping" might actually be getting what they want.

Good point too. For example, I did spend on our fridge, DW and the cooktop but I got a single oven and it's the Bosch lower end model. Why? I rarely use the oven. I do most cooking on the cooktop or we'll be doing lots of barbecuing outdoors.

I also didn't get a large pantry since we eat dinner out 4+ x a week (but never lunch or breakfast), and I didn't need any specialty ovens or other specialty features. Just lots of drawers as we're getting older.

Cpartist. Yes, you get what you need. It's too hot here most days for any kind of outdoor cooking, so the broiler in the Bluestar french door wall oven gets used a lot. The no bending over and no large door to reach over is great. I do about half the cooking with the oven and half with the cooktop. The kitchen remodel cost about 30% of the purchase price of the house.

30% of purchase price would put my kitchen in around 200 K...that'd be really hard to swing lol.

My house was a lot less expensive than yours :-)

hence my stupid mathematical question earlier..:)

(I'm really so very ashamed I already need to use a calculator to do simple proportion..)

We disregarded the recommended percentage and focused solely on our wants/needs. We're lucky that we are able to afford this freedom, because on paper this was crazy! We plan on aging in place in this house (the previous owners lived here into their 90's), so recouping the remodeling cost wasn't a factor. The remodel cost, without appliances, was $100K. The appliances and range hood were another $35K.

Value of the house is $500K, up from $425K pre-remodel. Two days ago a realtor was going door-to-door asking homeowners if they knew of anyone considering placing their home on the market, as they have clients wishing to buy in the neighborhood. Should we have an abrupt change of heart and decide to sell, I believe we'll be much better situated because of the remodel.

We spent about 7% of our home value on our remodel, doing most work ourselves. Our house is worth less than $200k and we are unlikely to recoup any of our kitchen remodel cost if we sell, and we don't know when/if we might sell, so we didn't want to go overboard. We have nothing high end, mostly mid-range, but it is still an upgrade over the kitchen that had been in our house for 26 years. Despite the general consensus around here, I am so happy that we now have some cabinets without pull-outs so I have a spot to put my stock pot and large/tall appliances.

Wow Cheryl that's like 32% I realize there are a lot of variables did you have a lot of structural work done?

We put in a big window (4'H x 8'W) that is bumped out 11". We added a sidelight window beside the patio door. Um, there is a lot of cabinetry... The granite came to $9K...The kitchen has two islands, a pantry/bar section, a command center, and a mudroom style bench with cubbies and coat hooks. It's a big kitchen 13'W x 27'L (well, half of it is only 12'W.)

The first GC we talked to came in $50K over the $100K budget, so we shopped around for another. We did the demolition ourselves to save a few thousand - and because it was fun.

Initially our cabinets came to $50K and we kind of choked/gagged/swooned. We changed the wood from walnut to cherry, and we changed from Plato to Woodland which saved $11K.

Appliances. One can spend a mint (obviously) and my partner kept upping the level of what he wanted (for me/us). By the time we set a budget he had decided upon an appliance budget, so this wasn't something that snuck up on us.

So, here we are with Sub-Zero and Wolf appliances: counter depth paneled refrigerator, Combi-Steam oven, Convection/Bake oven, and 2 paneled refrigerator drawers. The appliance store made us a deal, spend $150 more on the Bosch dishwasher to get the top model and in exchanged they'd tossed in a Sharp MW drawer. And then we got a Vent-a-hood range hood.

One of these days I'll get some decent pictures taken and do a reveal thread.

You know what this thread tells me? The "average kitchen remodel price" often quoted on this forum CANNOT BE RIGHT! You all are in a 4-15%, mostly, range above, and most of you are not in million plus houses/condos.

So, where does the "average kitchen remodel price" come from, that is so often quoted in this forum?

kirkhall. I think it depends on what price you use to start. The purchase price, the purchase price plus other improvements you've made, The tax assessor's valuation, or what's shown on zillow. Depending on how I jigger the figures, I can get from 50% to 12%. The other thing that's not known is if the average price is taken over the entire time that GW has been around. And I'd guess that GW members spend more than non-GW members* who either spend a lot less or a lot more (e.g. For them buying a fully loaded Tesla uses a similar decision process to me buying a cup of hot chocolate at Starbucks. )

* Assumes the average price is an industry wide figure.

Mine wasn't a remodel, but a new home build that we built ourselves. Original cost was 10% percent of total build/land cost but with some different choices made I got it down to around 6%.

Cpartist. Yes, you get what you need. It's too hot here most days for any kind of outdoor cooking, so the broiler in the Bluestar french door wall oven gets used a lot

That's why like you, I'm doing an induction cooktop. We're in SW FL and I'm tired of standing in front of the cooktop and feeling like I'm having a hot flash. LOL. Actually I tend to do something like ceviche once a week. We have a farmers market downtown on Saturdays, which gets in fresh fish and DH goes first thing in the morning and picks up something for us which I later marinate.

BTW: Pretty kitchen.

Oh and since I only cook a few days a week, I didn't feel the need to go with top of the line Miele or Wolf appliances (except for my dishwasher, which is a Miele). I went with Bosch for my cooktop, oven and fridge and a Sharp drawer MW.

Even for our outdoor kitchen we went more basic since here in FL, we'll probably have to replace the grill in 5 years or so. (Salt air.)

@Janie it's a funny disparity, but my husband drives home from work every day in his $3700 car, wearing a $7000 watch (company gift for length of service) and when our kitchen is finally finished, he will walk in and make himself a coffee on a machine that doesn't cost a car payment, it cost almost as much as the CAR.

Our total expense, hopefully around $30k, will be a title less than 15% of the current value of our home. We're in the Houston burbs, so pretty low COL. Ours is mostly DIY, but wth lots of structural changes. We put about 1/3 of our budget in plumbing and electrical. We knew the espresso setup would be $3k. And I knew I wanted 2 ovens and Marmoleum for the floor. We worked everything else around that, including getting our cabinets from Craigslist and then 16' of counter from ikea clearance for under $100

We got married in our backyard, my youngest daughter was born upstairs, and we love the neighborhood and neighbors and schools and we're about 15 minutes from most of my family. Unless we have to relocate, we're not going anywhere.

We used the 15% number as a guide to not overimorive for the neighborhood. I wouldn't have thought a minimum was really applicableto any kitchen though. Because there's so much variation in what needs to be done. Some kitchens might need new counters and a coat of paint. Ours required rebuilding 3 load bearing walls.

@townlakecakes, did you get any damage from Harvey?

@Janie No we didn't. We're in the original part of our city, so built on higher ground. We also *just* finished a drainage improvement project in our neighborhood. As in they were replacing the sod in our yard by the street last Thursday as the rain was starting. Most of my family is in this area. My sister and mom are on the Brazos flood plain, but their master planned community has a levee that is still holding up, but still not expected to crest until tomorrow, but 3' lower than originally forecast. My sister evacuated because my nephew has epilepsy and needs refrigeration for medication and a pharmacy and hospital nearby. My dad has a sandwich shop close to one of the reservoirs and it's completely underwater and I think still rising.

I have a lot of guilt right now. It feels awfully frivolous to be going about our remodel right now, and we'd be happy to take in a small family but we don't have a kitchen. I kind of feel like a desperate family ( and there are a lot of them) would be happy with a bed and sandwiches. DH says it's too chaotic and we just can't.

@townlakecakes, PLEASE do not feel guilty, it's absolutely okay to talk about your remodel, in fact, it's most likely therapeutic on some level.

We luckily didn't flood during Sandy, although just a few blocks away businesses, friends and neighbors were underwater.

Countless Houstonians will be out of work and will be thankful someone like you is doing a remodel, you'll be putting food on their table.

So happy that your family is safe, especially your nephew.

I did a lot of volunteer after Sandy with my church and quickly realized that it wasn't the immediate aftermath, but the months that followed after the devastation, (after all the "help" had left) was the most crucial.

Please keep in touch, XO

@townlakecakes Glad you are safe. Don't feel guilty because you're finishing up. I think you did a great job of managing the funds for the remodel with how much you did.

Woot in the countertop cost. I wish I could have buy the Ikea clearance but my stupidity in making the counters deeper kept me from a lot if cheap sources.

about 12% ... the $867/sq ft part is painful

We have totally changed our plans for our remodel and haven't started getting new quotes, so I don't know where we will end up, but the budget today is ~ 10% not including appliances and includes some smallish structural changes and new flooring on the first floor. For us, barring another housing crash, we should recoup a fair amount of that if not all. We are in a higher COL area but in a "more reasonable" area than the others that feed into our very desirable schools. The houses are older and while we were looking the ones that had remodeled kitchens, especially with a move to a more open floor plan, went fast and well above the comp's. I don't plan to move for about 10 years but I do think the changes we are looking at making will improve the value going forward, should we do them.

Beachem...we had a 3" waste stack sticking out from the wall about an inch where I wanted to put the dishwasher to get it out of the prep area. We considered deeper counters to accommodate it. But we had already gotten our clearance countertops so we furred out the wall instead.

We spent less than three percent. We lived in a very high cost of living area with very expensive housing--the San Francisco Bay Area. The houses are small and so are the kitchens. We tore down a wall and gutted the whole thing. I could see spending 5 percent, but I can't imagine how I would have gotten to 15 percent. That would have been over $150,000 on what ended up as a 9 X 13 kitchen. Even I would have had to work at it to do that.

Percentage of house value isn't very useful in those areas that are outliers (either extremely expensive or extremely inexpensive areas of the country).

For example, this is the kitchen in a 1 BR condo (975 sqft), price slightly below 1 mio.

ANd now Washington, DC area:

2mio house, just sold.

6.5 mio