ZenMan, I have a question: are all cactus-flowered zinnias tetraploid, or just the Super Cactus mix? Thanks.

Hi CeeKay,

" ...are all cactus-flowered zinnias tetraploid, or just the Super Cactus mix? "

As far as I know, the Super Cactus Mix, and the separate colors from that mix (Aztec, Senorita, Redman, Burpee Rose, Sungod, Lilac Emperor, and Snowman) are the only tetraploid zinnias currently in the marketplace.

All the rest of the cactus zinnias are diploids. And I believe (hope) that the separate colors of cactus zinnias offered by Hazzards are diploids, because they are not "super". And because I purchased a quantity of Hazzard's White Cactus and grew a bed of them and in that bed I found my star-tipped mutant, which I crossed with a bunch of things and that white mutant behaved as a diploid. Fortunately for me. So that is additional evidence that the Hazzard's separate colors of cactus zinnias are diploid, and readily cross-able with each other and with other diploid cactus zinnias (like the Burpeeana Giants and the other cactus mix zinnias).

" More zinnia seeds arrived in the mail today- always a cause for joy! "

I am pretty sure you are over-buying zinnia seed, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. If you keep them in reasonable storage conditions (not where they will get too hot) they will last for years. And you can always go through them, picking out the "best" looking ones to give yourself an early advantage. I have, on occasions, purchased zinnia seeds in the handy one-pound pack.

You can get some interesting zinnia seeds from Tanzania. Grin.

ZM (not associated with Hazzards, Stokes, or Tanzania)

Thank you for the information on the Super Cactus Mix, ZenMan. It will be helpful when I try to cross breed them. My internet service has been down for the past 3 days. They don't get in any hurry to fix outages in the boondocks.

Yes, I can tell that I am overbuying zinnia seeds because of how guilty I feel about it! I got some more seed today- Gumdrop Candy. I am in such a hurry to try everything after just growing my own seed (probably California Giants) all these years. I did see a listing for Snowman zinnia, but the photo was not of a cactus flowered type. I recently ordered "Heirloom Orange" which turned out to be labeled as Oriole when received, and also ordered "Dinnerplate White" which was labeled Polar Bear when received- unfortunately, I already had Oriole and Polar Bear. I see lots of listings where the name does not match the photo and so don't know which is correct. And of course there are many listings that use the same stock photos over and over so you don't really get an idea of what all a given variety will do. I wish the sellers would use photos of their actual plants growing. I have even seen photos of dahlias used to illustrate zinnia listings, as well as photos with improbable colors (notably blue).

Speaking of overbuying- a one pound pack?! There must be thousands upon thousands in there. You really do cull heavily. I can't bring myself to cull any, even the less attractive ones. Do you find that zinnias from seeds grown in other countries differ from plants grown from seeds originating here? I see a lot of seed for sale from the Ukraine and China, and wonder if it would worthwhile to see if there is a difference. Of course you should well know if there is any difference in seed from Tanzania!

My camera arrived yesterday. It did have a battery and charger. I spent the day reading the user's manual and am now still waiting for the Dummies book to arrive.

The first crop zinnia bed that I cleared all the old plants off of is full of new zinnia seedlings. I would have sworn that I had kept those plants dead-headed, but I guess not.

CeeKay

CeeKay - just now home from an exhausting day of cross the state book-buying, and what do I do as soon as I walk in the door? I check the internet. Well, that's not quite accurate, since really the first thing I do is feed the 4 indoor cats and then the ferals outside. At present, 3 of the indoor/outdoor ferals are inside out of the rain which started this evening (I'm grateful it waited till we were almost home since I am a nervous enough passenger without dealing with rain conditions as well.) So that means there are 7 cats in this house. This fits in that category of "if I'd only known before it got this far..." - but there it stands; no backing out now. At least none of them are kittens; I shudder in remembrance of some of the experiences of the past wild kitten days. That expression "climbing the walls", is not simply an expression.

Well, enough cat stuff; sorry I'm a bit punch-drunk from "book-buying overload". And my foot hurts.

Anyway, glad to hear your camera arrived with a battery and charger. I thought there might be a charger, but wasn't sure. Don't wait for the Dummies books; just go out and play with the thing. That's the wonderful thing about digital - you can erase anything that you don't like. I frequently do before I even download into my PC. After looking at little thumbnails for years, I have something of a feel for whether a shot is even worth messing with. But there are no "mistakes". Take as many pics as you like. Photography is about art and inspiration, but it's also about science. You're capturing the effects of light, and the camera allows you to manipulate the capture. The Dummy book will have lots of insights into what makes for a good composition, but alot of it is looking at the image you want to photograph, and asking yourself, before you ever take the picture - what looks better? Should that tree be slightly to the left forming a frame for the landscape between, or is the tree itself a crucial part of the photo? Does this picture feel more dynamic in the vertical with the existing straight up and down lines, or are those up and down lines really a secondary element to the more dominant horizontal tableau? See what i mean? I love photography. I love the light. And I love telling stories with photos. Here's Samhain on one of her leash-walks under Grandmother Elm. There could have been more definition on the cat herself, but I wanted to capture the light coming through the trees most of all.

ZM - yes, I'd like to know myself if you've noticed a difference in quality between seeds from different countries!

Alex

Hi CeeKay,

" I see a lot of seed for sale from the Ukraine and China, and wonder if it would worthwhile to see if there is a difference. "

I stick mostly with USA, Canadian, and occasionally British seed companies.

" I recently ordered "Heirloom Orange" which turned out to be labeled as
Oriole when received, and also ordered "Dinnerplate White" which was
labeled Polar Bear when received "

That was probably not a "standard" seed company. I usually stick with "known good" seed companies. But even the best ones sometimes make mistakes.

" Speaking of overbuying- a one pound pack?! There must be thousands upon thousands in there. "

According to the Stokes Seed company, zinnia seed size varies according to type from 2,500-6,200 seeds per oz/28 g. That allows for a lot of variation between large varieties and small varieties. However, for the Burpeeana Giants they are saying " 1 oz/28 g sows approx. nine (20x12 in/51x31 cm) flats @ 800 - 900 seedlings per flat. "

From that you could infer that for Burpeeana Giants 1 ounce of seeds would contain 7200 to 8100 seeds. But that is inconsistent with the 2500 to 6200 range. Burpeeanas are somewhat big-seeded, so I would guess them at about 4000 seeds per ounce. Considerably less than their flats estimate. A pound is 16 ounces by weight, so a pound of Burpeeana Giants zinnia seeds would contain on the order of about 64,000 seeds. So you are right, "thousands upon thousands". And yes, that was an over-buy. I am still using Burpeeana Giants from that pack, after several years. But eventually I will use them all. And by that time, cosmic rays will probably have mutated them.

" I would have sworn that I had kept those plants dead-headed, but I guess not. "

Birds may have scattered some of your zinnia seeds for you. Several species of seed-eating birds consider zinnia seeds a tasty snack, and when they "go at" a seed-head, they usually knock a bunch of seeds onto the ground. More later.

ZM

Hi CeeKay,

" I see a lot of seed for sale from the Ukraine and China, and wonder if it would worthwhile to see if there is a difference. "

I stick mostly with USA, Canadian, and occasionally British seed companies.

" I recently ordered "Heirloom Orange" which turned out to be labeled as
Oriole when received, and also ordered "Dinnerplate White" which was
labeled Polar Bear when received "

That was probably not a "standard" seed company. I usually stick with "known good" seed companies. But even the best ones sometimes make mistakes.

" Speaking of overbuying- a one pound pack?! There must be thousands upon thousands in there. "

According to the Stokes Seed company, zinnia seed size varies according to type from 2,500-6,200 seeds per oz/28 g. That allows for a lot of variation between large varieties and small varieties. However, for the Burpeeana Giants they are saying " 1 oz/28 g sows approx. nine (20x12 in/51x31 cm) flats @ 800 - 900 seedlings per flat. "

From that you could infer that for Burpeeana Giants 1 ounce of seeds would contain 7200 to 8100 seeds. But that is inconsistent with the 2500 to 6200 range. Burpeeanas are somewhat big-seeded, so I would guess them at about 4000 seeds per ounce. Considerably less than their flats estimate. A pound is 16 ounces by weight, so a pound of Burpeeana Giants zinnia seeds would contain on the order of about 64,000 seeds. So you are right, "thousands upon thousands". And yes, that was an over-buy. I am still using Burpeeana Giants from that pack, after several years. But eventually I will use them all. And by that time, cosmic rays will probably have mutated them.

" I would have sworn that I had kept those plants dead-headed, but I guess not. "

Birds may have scattered some of your zinnia seeds for you. Several species of seed-eating birds consider zinnia seeds a tasty snack, and when they "go at" a seed-head, they usually knock a bunch of seeds onto the ground. More later.

ZM

Hello Alex,

That is a beautiful photo -- a combination of good photography and artistic vision. The lighting and green color harmony really make that suitable for framing. It occurred to me that you could be an artist on top of your other talents.

In the past I have dabbled in acrylics, but nowadays I just seem to be too busy for that hobby. And none of my "art" survives -- it was in a storage unit that got submerged by a dioxin-contaminated "500-year" flood and everything lost. I also lost my favorite Merry Tiller in that submerged storage unit. I have had very bad luck with commercial storage units. I am not using one now, and hope to never have to again.

" I'd like to know myself if you've noticed a difference in quality between seeds from different countries! "

I have noticed differences in the strains, but not necessarily differences in quality. I purchased some Burpeeana Giants from Burpee that had a country-of-origin of France on them, and they had many odd black-seeded florets that I haven't seen elsewhere. It was almost like they had their own strain of Burpeeana Giants. The Netherlands (Holland) seem to be responsible for the Super Cactus tetraploid zinnias, but it isn't feasible to purchase from them directly. Some American seed companies apparently do buy some of their seeds from overseas, including from Holland.

My outdoors zinnias are pretty much shot by now. We have had several cold nights. This was a recent picture of a South Garden "survivor".

I am transitioning to my indoor zinnia project, and primarily just saving seeds from my outdoors zinnias. More later. Namaste.

ZM

Hi Alex, that was a lovely photo. I do see what you mean about consideration of the elements in a photo. My Dummies book arrived this morning and I have been busily reading it. I can see where it would take a very long time to truly master this camera, let alone the nuances of artistic photography. I will get outside later and try out the camera- as you said there are no real mistakes. My initial goal at this point is to accurately document the form and color of the blooms so I can evaluate the changes that breeding produces.

My favorite pastime has always been reading books- growing flowers is only a close second- so I envy you your bookstore, Alex. I worked my way through college employed in the college library all four years, and absolutely loved being immersed in books. I read for several hours every day. I am also passionate about cats- I have housecats, but keep the (neutered) ferals in a big chain-link fenced area that is topped off with an additional fencing product called "Cat Fence In". This area has their housing in the form of 3 big insulated storage buildings that are equipped with heat lamps. These are truly feral cats which I have trapped, and who on the most part do not ever become tame enough to pet- they are free-fed dry food, but do come running to me to get their canned food every day. We have too many coyotes and dogs running around here to not keep the cats fenced in. (Not to mention a plethora of feral hogs, armadillos, possums, skunks, and copperheads- just no chupacabras yet.) My long suffering husband goes out every night to run off the possums that try to get over the cat fence (to get the cat food) and armadillos that bulldoze the yard. I refer to him as Varmint Man when he is on patrol.

Hi ZenMan, you are right, I did get those misnamed seeds from dealers on Etsy, not a standard seed company, although most of my seed has come from the "big name" companies. I was just hoping that a small independent grower might have some handed down heirloom variety of zinnia that I could not find otherwise. I am intrigued by the black floret seeds you got from France- did you plant those? I would dearly love to know if flower strains in different countries have evolved differently. Your breeding program must surely rely heavily on Burpeeana Giants- what traits do they have that make them desirable in breeding? I have one miserable little pack of them, containing 28 seeds- nothing in your league! I hope you will go back to painting.

CeeKay

Good morning, yall! Raining like cats and... well - more cats out there right now and since yesterday. The zinnias are done for as far as I can tell. Powdery mildew and pounded by rain, wind, and the occasional above-mentioned cat. Well, that's alright. The flowers have done their duties and set plenty of seed which I've already gathered and stored away.

ZM and CK- you've convinced me I should buy more whirligig seed. Don't remember where I got the last pack, but it doesn't matter - they won't be hard to find. Still wishing I could get a-hold of a packet like that incredible mix that Jackie R posted some years back - the one that had 3 different bands of color in the most amazing tints!

Thank you both for your compliments on the photo. When we first bought this piece of property decades back, I was entranced with the layout of it. It has grown increasingly wilder with us living here; I am alternately pleased and dismayed by this. If I had money and a team of gardeners, there are many things I'd like to do, but alas! - there are only the two of us, and you don't get rich being used and out-of-print booksellers. And now I am aging and most of the dreams must be put aside. I can only hope when we are gone, that whoever takes over this place won't try to tame it too radically. There's much magic here.

CeeKay - I see we share a common interest in feral cats. I have friends, the same I've mentioned before as gardeners with whom I share seed, who were part of an animal rescue and TNR program for years. They have since retired, living on their own country property in a house which they built themselves. They also have a "stockade-type" fence they installed to keep in the ferals they rescued. I admire their and your efforts, though I can't hope to duplicate them. It is as much as we are able to do in keeping our charges in food and shelter and the occasional medicinal treatment. Our indoor people get treated like royalty, but the rest are the unwashed masses outside the gates! LOL. Though well-fed unwashed masses. Here is a pic of the "solarium" - our porch which is partially enclosed for them. Those two black lumps are probably Luci and Osiris. There are only 4 untouchables out of the 15, and of those, 3 are wavering in their "untouchability". I don't know whether to be glad or worried. I know this: I don't want any more coming up our driveway, please the gods.

ZM - I know we talked about colchicine before for changing ploidy in zinnias. In the next couple of years I will be working with a great number of daylily seeds; I am curious about the possibility of making some of my own tetraploids. Did you ever actually use it or research where was the best place to purchase it? Apparently, some daylily hybridizers use it as well.

Namaste, O savers of the seeds and cats,

Alex

Hello CeeKay,

" I am intrigued by the black floret seeds you got from France- did you plant those? "

No, not yet. I will probably plant a row of them next Spring. I expect them to produce plants like regular zinnia seeds, because "regular' floret seeds do that. But I will need to actually plant and grow them to get "ground truth".

" Your breeding program must surely rely heavily on Burpeeana Giants- what
traits do they have that make them desirable in breeding? "

They are presumably the best of the cactus flowered zinnias, in that they can have 6-inch blooms (occasionally) and they have a claimed superior plant habit, bushy and about 2½ foot high, which is a bit shorter than the "regular" cactus flowered zinnias. You are right, the Burpeeanas and Whirligigs have genes in at least 80% of my breeders. The scabiosa flowered strains (there are several) come in third. Only in recent years have I been adding tubular and star-petaled mutants and California Giants to the mix.

There is an odd story about the Burpeeana Giants. Their creator, Burpee, actually discontinued them a few years ago. But third party growers continued offering them, so Burpee was obliged to "re-invent" them. Wouldn't you know, the re-invented ones aren't as good as the originals. You would have thought that they would have saved some of the original seeds in good storage, but apparently they didn't. Oh well, maybe I can "reinvent" the reinvention. Now I am getting more curious about those black floret seeds.

" I hope you will go back to painting. "

I hope I will, too. I really enjoyed doing it.

ZM

Hello Alex,

" I know we talked about colchicine before for changing ploidy in
zinnias. In the next couple of years I will be working with a great
number of daylily seeds; I am curious about the possibility of making
some of my own tetraploids. Did you ever actually use it or research
where was the best place to purchase it? "

I created tetraploid zinnias with it years ago. They were actually kind of unimpressive and disappointing. Thicker leaves and bigger leaf hairs and stomata don't add that much. The availability of colchicine has changed a lot. Years ago, anyone could order it mail order, and I did. Now days there can be restrictions (and apparently transaction hazards). There are other substances that can produce tetraploidy. There is an interesting message thread on this over in the Daylilies Forum: If you want to buy colchicine....

An internet search would produce a lot of hits. Actually, you can do a search for Colchicine here on GardenWeb

There are several Colchicine discussions in the Daylilies forum

" Still wishing I could get a-hold of a packet like that incredible mix
that Jackie R posted some years back - the one that had 3 different
bands of color in the most amazing tints! "

I think those were not "out of a packet", but crosses, possibly multiple crosses, between different Whirligigs. Jackie R was a seasoned veteran zinnia breeder when I was just starting. I have gotten a few Extreme Uprolls, but nothing comparable to those that Jackie R showed. I do recommend buying Whirligigs from multiple sources and inter-crossing them "to beat the band". Tri-color zinnias can look great.

Although, I think that "middle" color is usually just an overlap of the tip color and the base color. Sometimes the "tip" color is just at the tip.There are a lot of variations possible, and making hybrids between hybrids can bring out some new looks.

Namaste.

ZM

Hello ZenMan. You have just given me an excuse to order at least a second packet of Whirligig seeds (from a different source) and more Burpeeana giants. Your tri-colors are gorgeous. I can just imagine a huge bouquet of them in all colors. I was harvesting seed last night and was excited to finally find a bloom which had seed that was wavy (along one edge only).

Alex, it is so nice to know that there are lots of other people out there providing for feral cats. I have had a few very ambitious ferals who managed to escape the fencing and who then started coming in the cat door of my house and eventually established themselves as house cats. I refer to them as the Jeffersons- they moved on up. I know what you mean about the magic of a natural place- most of our acreage is cleared pasture, but across our creek we have several wooded acres that make the rest of the world seem very far away.

You will both be glad to hear that I have been taking zinnia photos for the past 2 days. It turned out to be really easy, although I admit that I am not using even a small fraction of the capabilities of the camera yet. Thanks to you both for the encouragement to get the camera. Now I need to learn how to upload the photos.

CeeKay

Hello CeeKay,

" Now I need to learn how to upload the photos. "

The uploading part is easy -- just click on the Photo icon at the bottom of your message editing field, navigate to your picture on your hard drive, and click on it and click Open. The picture will upload and appear in your message.

However, you need to prepare the image to make it suitable for uploading here. Nikon ViewNX 2 software came with your camera. Install it on your computer, run it, and click on Help to access instructions on details of how to use View NX2 to transfer your images from your camera to your computer and how to edit your images in ViewNX 2 to make them suitable for uploading here. This is a screen grab of the View NX2 Help screen. Click on it and hit F11 for a readable view.

The red lines are hyperlinks to explanatory material. You can actually do quite a bit with the Nikon View NX2 software. My D3200 JPGs are 6016 pixels wide right out of the camera, but I upload JPG pictures here that are just 1000 pixels wide, and the inline picture appears at only 500 pixels wide, even though I uploaded it at 1000 pixels wide. But clicking on the picture takes advantage of the extra pixels. I am sure you have lots of questions about all this, but hopefully the View NX2 software's Help feature can answer a lot of them. So your first step is to install View NX2 on your computer. And then spend some time exploring its Help function.

ZM

CeeKay - looking forward to seeing your zinnia pics with your brand-new camera! Yeah, it can definitely be exciting when you learn a new trick with it. Don't know if you're starting out with your setting on Automatic, but don't be afraid to switch to the Manual setting and then start playing with changing ISO, shutter speeds and f-stops. For instance, if you're outside on a sunny day, you would probably have your ISO set at 100. Then if you're taking a closeup of a zinnia, you would probably want your f-stop to be at 5.6 or even lower - this will give you a shallow depth of field, blurring your background. The shutter speed will necessarily be high because the other settings are allowing so much light in that you don't want to have the shutter open more than the briefest instant. This works well if you're trying to get a hummingbird or butterfly visiting your flowers since it catches the action of that micro-second. If you wanted the action to be blurred for some reason, you could just start lowering the shutter speed, but you'd have to compensate for the added light by upping your f-stop, otherwise your pic would be over exposed. Anyway, we're here to talk about it with you - love this stuff!

ZM - love those two tri-colored zinnias! Yes, I definitely will be buying some whirligig seeds! It would be cool to see some of my larger strains that I had this year, with the added bands of color - cool!!!

This is totally off subject, but just now I remembered how sometimes I accidentally erase stuff that I am going back to alter, and, of course, this isn't like e-mail - no draft is being saved. So, when I think of it, I call up Notepad and write my comment there first. Whew! That can be such a bummer when you're as long-winded as I can be and you lose all of what you just wrote!

I think those were not "out of a packet", but crosses, possibly multiple crosses, between different Whirligigs.

Are you sure? Because, I remember I did ask her, and while I'll freely admit that my memory can be faulty, I thought she surprised me by saying they had come out of the packet that way. But my mind may have just got stuck in a self-repeating groove, I suppose.

Thanks for the colchicine links. I checked and don't see anything recent, however, so I guess I'll just play the "newbie" again, and go post a thread asking for info. The daylily crowd are variably friendly, but still seem a bit aloof. I probably did it to myself by coming on too strong. Who, me - PUSHY?? LOL. It may take a few years to get accepted. One of the things I've much appreciated here on your thread is how welcoming it is. Some of these other specialty threads scare the bejessus outta me! :)

Alex

Hi Alex,

" Are you sure? Because, I remember I did ask her, and while I'll freely
admit that my memory can be faulty, I thought she surprised me by saying
they had come out of the packet that way. "

I'm not sure. I'm usually not sure where my coffee cup is. And I don't know why Jackie R's unique zinnias couldn't have come directly from a packet -- all of my mutants came directly from a packet.

" That can be such a bummer when you're as long-winded as I can be and you lose all of what you just wrote! "

I think we all have had that experience. More than once. Lose a whole bunch of "inspired" text that we can never re-invent exactly. Sometimes I just do a Ctrl+A Ctrl+C to select everything and copy it to the Clipboard. You can always Paste the Clipboard with Ctrl+V. The Clipboard is usually "safe", until you inadvertently copy something else there, or you get an electric power glitch which erases everything. Electric power failures here in this rural area are not that uncommon. There was one odd day a couple of months ago when we had about eight in a day. And it wasn't even stormy. I have no idea what was going on. I just heard a funny noise from outdoors, and did a Ctrl+A Ctrl+C.

I sympathize with CeeKay, faced with learning about her computer AND new software. Things that are second nature to us are completely mysterious to someone who is just learning. I am not expecting any pictures from her anytime soon. She has "a long row to hoe".

Namaste.

ZM

ZM - whoa on the colchicine. My daylily peoples have informed me that new evidence supports links to cancer. Dangerous stuff to mess with apparently, so I've abandoned the plan to try changing ploidy in my daylilies. More later. Your coffee cup is on the planting shelves in the basement. :)

Alex

Hi Alex,

" ...whoa on the colchicine. My daylily peoples have informed me that new evidence supports links to cancer. "

Sunshine has links to cancer. The bottle of colchicine I was using had warnings that it was toxic and could be absorbed through the skin. So I was careful not to get any on me.

Oddly, some people are deliberately swallowing colchicine daily, on advice from their doctor. Colchicine is a pharmaceutical that is used to treat gout and other medical conditions.

" Your coffee cup is on the planting shelves in the basement. "

You are a sly one. It was actually on one of my planting shelves in the basement. Now I want a cup of coffee. Hold the colchicine.

Namaste.

ZM

Hello Alex and ZenMan. I want to thank you both for the detailed advice on how to use the camera and to get it to upload the photos. I will surely put that advice to good use as soon as possible. My situation at present is that my brother has been hospitalized with acute renal failure and he lives 2 hours away, so my personal plans have gone on the back burner for now.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

CeeKay

CeeKay - very sorry to hear about your brother. Go take care of things, including yourself. We will talk with you when you are able again. Our thoughts go with you.

Alex

CeeKay -- echoing what Alex said. Our thoughts are with you and your brother.

ZM

Hello ZenMan and Alex, I appreciate your kind sentiments. I know it will be a bit of a rollercoaster ride for the next few days. Look for me to return soon with zinnia pictures!

CeeKay

CeeKay
I Wish You and Your Brother Well, My Thoughts Are With You Too

ZM
PLEASE Say That You Have Saved Seeds From Your Red and Orange {Also Sure There Was another NON Pink One Too} Tubys and Will Be Working on Them In Your Indoor Growing!!!!!!

{I Know This Message Was Meant To Be Sent a Few Days Ago But I Couldn't Post a Reply To ANYTHING Anywhere}
Thanks

Hello Ninecrow,

" Say That You Have Saved Seeds From Your Red and Orange {Also Sure There Was another NON Pink One Too} Tubys and Will Be Working on Them In Your Indoor Growing!!!!!! "

I planted some seeds from a yellow tubey a few minutes ago.

This one's "claim to fame" was the extra large flare-outs at the ends of its petals. It was crossed with a number of things, so the progeny may look quite different. My indoor zinnia project is just getting started, with many more plantings to come.

ZM

What About The Red?
PLEASE Say You Got Some Seeds From That One???????????
Sorry, JUST REALLY Like That One and The NON Pink That You Posted on The 27th of September
Thanks......

Ninecrow - had to go back to see, but remember I really liked that watermelon-y red of ZM's from Sept 27th, too. And as ZM prepares for his winter gardening, I am finally able to shut off lights and clone machine upstairs. Think I mentioned at the time that I bought a 36 slot Klone King a few months back, and promptly put it to work, growing some rose cuttings and all sorts of other bits and pieces of stuff just to see how well it worked. Worked very well, but not close to the 100% the advertising hype suggested. I didn't keep records, so can't give an accurate percentage - I'd say it was more like 75%, but then perhaps this was because I was doing more woody cuttings rather than fresh green. Of the three different roses, that first one was the bug-a-bear that kept me running the dang thing for months. The other two roses probably rooted within 7 days, but the old variety yellow Pioneer rose that a friend had wanted to salvage from an abandoned building just would not root. Of the 9 cuttings, only 3 made it. It might have also been because of the insect infestation the poor darlings brought with them. Grrr..........I dealt with both aphids and scale - both of which hatched out during the rooting process, much to my chagrin. And, before you ask - yes, it was definitely from these roses. Nothing else in the machine ever showed evidence of either of these, thankfully. I was alternately spraying the poor cuttings with water and bug spray. Can't have helped the rooting process. But, happy end to the story, I was able to pass on the best of the three to my friend to plant out this fall in a protected spot. The other two I will overwinter in the greenhouse - after I'm sure I've killed off the last of the scale. One other thing that I was inordinately pleased with was the lavender I saw in front of a library and took cuttings from. (I asked them first if I could.) I was too shy to get any really big pieces, so I had these puny little 2-3" pieces - about 6 of them. Only 3 rooted, not surprisingly; 2 of those died after transplanting. But one survived, and as soon as I could, I took another cutting from it. Now I have two. :) Come spring, I'm going to make a bunch more. Yeah, I like that machine. And very soon, I'm cleaning up my entire indoor planting area with bleach! LOL

Alex

Hello NineCrow,

" What About The Red? ...and The NON Pink That You Posted on The 27th of September "

I saved seeds from them, but not strictly selfed seeds. Since the "tubie" stigmas are concealed in the tubes, I break or cut the tubes to expose the stigmas, and then apply pollen from "upgrade" pollen donors, which could even be non-tubie specimens and some from even (shudder) pink specimens. But their genes "carry on" in the gene pool, to make their appearance again in the future. And my preferred "upgrade" color is white, not pink. But zinnia genetic recombinations are hard to predict. That's part of the "fun".

ZM

Hi Alex,

" And as ZM prepares for his winter gardening, I am finally able to
shut off lights and clone machine upstairs. Think I mentioned at the
time that I bought a 36 slot Klone King a few months back, and promptly
put it to work, "

Actually, I don't remember the "Klone King". Have you ever tried a zinnia cutting in it? Don't misunderstand me, I am not recommending that. I gave up zinnia cuttings altogether because they were always a source of infection or infestation by some pest or disease from outdoors.

After a late breakfast (brunch?) I am going downstairs to the basement to start washing some more pots. It's amazing how much of my indoor project consists of washing pots and preparing potting mix.

I do have a flat of breeder seeds on a temperature-controlled germination shelf, but it is too soon to look for germination yet. There is room on the germination shelf for three more flats. (There is room for 18 pots on each flat.) I am working toward populating that space. After which, I will set up for another germination shelf. Busy, busy.

Namaste.

ZM

But You DID Self Some of The Ones I Asked About , Right??????????
Do Selfed Tubey's Come True From Their Own Seeds?
Kinda Lost Track of What You Said About Them.....
Sorry

ZM -

I do have a flat of breeder seeds on a temperature-controlled
germination shelf, but it is too soon to look for germination yet.

Well, just color me green! A temperature-controlled germination shelf would be a lovely thing to have.

No, I didn't do any zinnia cuttings, though if some year, I think I'd like to multiply or just keep some particular cultivar, this thing could do it. I could have a bed's worth of the same plant in a week, ready to bloom not much long after. I may employ it for this next season, starting some things to fill in spaces for the fall when some perennials disappear on you. But, as you've mentioned, you'd have to deal with insect pests and possible diseases. You wouldn't want to be doing it at the same time that you were raising your seedlings - not in the same area, at any rate, because of possible contamination.

Yes, I know what you mean about washing pots. I am definitely cleaning up my act for next season. I've gotten slovenly and there was too much loss of seedlings to damping-off, etc. this past spring. I should have done a complete cleaning of the entire area after having grown the potted-up catnip for the kids the winter before.

I do enjoy preparing the potting mix. That's sort of like the whole zen thing with choosing the seeds. I like sifting my hands through the soil. :)

Alex

Ninecrow - I hope the nasturtiums are doing well. Did they bloom again yet?

Hi Ninecrow

" But You DID Self Some of The Ones I Asked About , Right??? "

Sorry to disappoint you, but I think I pollinated all of those Tubies with "upgrades", which were meant to increase both the bloom size and the plant size. Only the floret seeds were "selfs", because that is the nature of floret seeds. Some Tubies don't even have any floret seeds, and depend on me exposing the stigmas in the tubes and pollinating them with something "good" that has available pollen. And the best candidates don't always have available pollen on that day.

" Do Selfed Tubey's Come True From Their Own Seeds? "

That depends on how you define "come true". My zinnias are all heterozygous to some degree, and some of my breeders are highly heterozygous. So if the strict definition of "come true" is that the progeny are identical to the parents, then only a small percentage of them do that. If by "come true" you mean that a Tubie mother produces Tubie children, then maybe 50% of them do that. Meaning that a lot of the progeny have Tubie style petals, but the colors, sizes, and shapes can vary.

Don't forget, I still cull my zinnias very heavily, keeping about 10% of them as breeders and discarding about 90% of them as culls. At this stage I am not trying to purify strains, and I am always trying for improvements, and a specimen that is merely identical to its parent is in danger of being culled. My zinnia breeding is still guided by Sturgeon's Law.

ZM

Hi Alex,

" I like sifting my hands through the soil. "

Me too. I am using ProMix, and it comes in compressed bales, and so I "decompress" it by hand. And if I find some sticks or anything that doesn't belong, I discard those things. The sticks probably wouldn't hurt anything, but it's easy enough just to toss them.

I would think that a big operation like a greenhouse would want to have some kind of "machine" to decompress the compressed bales of stuff. I tried putting some of my compressed ProMix through a meat grinder, and it did a great job, but it was very slow, primarily because its feed "hopper' would hold only about a double handful of stuff. So I continue to decompress compressed ProMix by hand. And enjoy doing it.

Namaste.

ZM

Alex

Can't Remember, Sorry....
But I Think You Are Right About The Alaska Variegated Part....
I'll Post When it Flowers Again as I See I Still Have Some Buds To Come....

Right He Has a Flower Showing Colour and To Me it's Looking Like it Could Be Orange......
But I Can't REALLY be Sure Until He Opens Up.....

That depends on how you define "come true". My zinnias are all heterozygous to some degree, and some of my breeders are highly heterozygous. So if the strict definition of "come true" is that the progeny are identical to the parents, then only a small percentage of them do that. If by "come true" you mean that a Tubie mother produces Tubie children, then maybe 50% of them do that.

Yes That Is What I Meant As In Cross a Tubey With a Tubey You Get At LEAST Some Tubey Children......

Sorry If I'm NOT Making That Much Sense Heavy Meds and Lack of Be Able To Sleep Makes For a Nutty NC.....

Ninecrow - I had two different kinds of nasturtiums planted in the patio garden last year - a scarlet Alaska and some seed I'd saved from the year before that was supposedly yellow. They grew like gangbusters, the scarlet Alaska in these compact, but extensive mounds, and the yellowish-orange in trailing runners all over. This year I bought Moonlight nasturtiums which are the trailing kind and a very pale yellow, but I kept them in one of the big planter boxes and some pots; I didn't plant any in the regular patio beds.

However, to my great surprise I had volunteers in the beds of both Alaska variegated and the plain green leaves of the trailing variety. But it was the colors that were especially cool! The Alaska was still scarlet, though slightly more muted in tone, and down the line from it was an orange, followed by a salmon, then a yellow. Such a careful graduation of color, that it looked like I'd planned it that way! I'm wondering now what may happen, having introduced the Moonlight nasturtiums.

Alex

ZM - I hesitated to post this because it is daylily-related, and possibly not applicable to zinnias. But take a look at this video, and tell me what you think. I so fell in love with this method of pre-germination, that I immediately ordered a big bag of perlite. This will be my new method of pre-germination for any larger seeds, I think.

There are several parts to the series as he walks you through the method to the actual transplanting, but you get the idea. The perlite, as long as it doesn't damage the root, would be far superior to my damp towel method as there is no danger of the root becoming embedded. I will experiment with other seeds, including zinnias to see how well they stand up to the abrasion from the perlite. I also like the idea of the addition of the hydrogen peroxide, oxygenating and keeping the perlite cleaner. That has been an issue with the paper towel, in that sometimes it starts to get slimy if the seed takes too long to germinate.

Namaste.

Alex

Hello to all! I did manage to get a photo posted! No one is more surprised than I am.

I must say how much I appreciated the good wishes of Alex, ZenMan, and Ninecrow regarding my brother's illness. He is doing a little better and the doctors are optimistic, but it is going to be a long haul before he is "clean out of the woods" as we say around here.

My favorite view of my saved seed zinnias is the profile. After all, they do not have the gorgeous petal shapes of the cactus or tubey, etc. forms. I guess that is why I was so taken with the 2 Lilliput volunteers that I had this year- such a deep profile.

Above is my pink Lilliput. It had 283 petals and not one viable seed! I suppose the pollinators could not find the stigmas under all those layers.

I have some Apricot Profusion zinnias that are the most glorious color, and I would love to get their color into a larger flowered zinnia. Is that cross possible? For that matter, I would like to get the color habit of my yellow/pink Lilliput into a larger flowered zinnia form. This pink/yellow Lilliput has yellow new growth that progressively turns pink.

I am so glad to be back and catch up on the conversation. ZenMan, your yellow tubey looks like it has some orange in the center- just gorgeous. Alex, thanks for the perlite seed starting video, I enjoyed it. Ninecrow, I hope you enjoy your nasturtiums. I grew some this year for the first time since I was a kid, and saw that I had forgotten how beautiful this plant is.

I have more zinnia pictures but for some reason it takes about 10 minutes to upload each one, and I am not a patient girl.

CeeKay

ZenMan and Alex- I forgot to say thank you again for the help with the camera- I am enjoying it so much!

CeeKay

Alex
The Flower is Open and is a Yellowish-Orange As You Put it, May Be a Short Day Thing Though As The Flowers Before Where a Bright Almost Neon Orange But I Don't Mind As it's Flowering.......

ZM
Have You Planted Any More Tubey's?
I KNOW I Seem Obsessed With Them and I MUST Admit I Am {Well The NON Pink Ones Anyway} Those and The Sparkler Forms Like This One...

***Photo is One I Found on Google and is a Chrysanthemum***

Ninecrow - that chrysanthemum looks suspiciously pink to me - LOL. Though definitely I can understand your fascination with the tubey form. And on the nasturtiums, the yellow-orange shade seems to be the dominate color. I like all the nasturtium colors, though I am probably partial to the more pastel shades - at least in the larger scheme of things when they are together with other plants in a landscape setting. It's a toss-up for me whether I prefer the mounding kind or the trailing kind; they each have their place.

CeeKay - glad to hear that your brother is showing improvement. So many advances in medicine these days, that one can develop life-threatening illnesses, and still live to tell the tale. Continued good thoughts sent to him and you during this time.

Nice photos - looks like you're getting the hang of it! Look upon it as play, and don't hesitate to be adventurous. Whatever photoshop you may have, even the pretty basic ones, should allow you to "play around" with the image. On the issue of uploading, check the size of the image. ZM would probably be better at giving you specifics, but - very simply - make sure you don't exceed 6" on either of your dimensions, and they should load more quickly.

Above is my pink Lilliput. It had 283 petals and not one viable seed!

Oh no! LOL. Yeah, been there. Oh, well - there will be others.

Alex

Hello CeeKay,

Echoing Alex's sentiments regarding your brother. Continued good thoughts sent to him and to you during this difficult time.

Both of your zinnia pictures look just fine. They seem to be sized just fine for display on this site.

" I have more zinnia pictures but for some reason it takes about 10 minutes to upload each one, and I am not a patient girl. "

The slow uploads may have to do with your Internet connection speed. Even with my GEN4 HughesNet satellite connection, my pictures take less than a minute. And I think my file sizes may actually be significantly larger than yours. My JPEG picture files typically run about 300 kilobytes. Your "tall" Lilliput was about 100 kilobytes, and the other Lilliput was a little over 80 kilobytes. Those are rather compact files.

" It had 283 petals and not one viable seed! I suppose the pollinators could not find the stigmas under all those layers. "

The bees have no interest at all in those stigmas, nor in doing any pollination. Bees get a lot credit for doing pollination, but bees are
not the least bit interested in doing any pollination. Their only
interest is in gathering nectar, or in some cases pollen, as food. Any
pollination that bees do is purely accidental. That is why you need to "be the bee" and apply pollen to those stigmas. You can lift the layered petals to expose the stigmas and apply pollen to them. By doing that you could have gotten 283 seeds from that bloom. Crossed with big cactus zinnias, no telling what you might have gotten in the way of hybrid zinnias from that remarkable bloom.

CeeKay, we are glad to have you back. And we are pleased to see that you are taking great zinnia photos. I am optimistic about next year.

ZM

Hello to all. I know that my photos are not focused as well as I would like for them to be, but I will enjoy working on that this winter. My internet speed is terribly slow, although it is the fastest speed that my carrier offers.

I am intrigued by Alex's Klone King. I try to root numerous cuttings every year, always with a high (expected) failure rate. This year I had success with 2 hydrangea cuttings, 4 butterfly bush cuttings, and one rose. Unfortunately, I had started out with perhaps 3 dozen rose cuttings. I just dip cuttings in rooting hormone and pot them in shade. I know you should cover them to avoid loss of moisture, but they always rot when I do that.

I know that hybridizing means that I will have to "be the bee", and I can see that it will be a lot of work and record keeping, but am looking forward to it all. I have already catalogued what seeds I have and some of the crosses that I plan to make. I need to get my weed barrier fabric, flower netting, irrigation lines, and disease spray ordered. I will get Bayer Advanced 3 in 1 for disease, but can't tell if it works on alternaria or not. This year is the first year we ever had powdery mildew here, but we always have severe alternaria. I plan to get Mancozeb for that.

Time to get back to hauling empty pots out to the shed until next year.

CeeKay

This is my favorite zinnia. It starts out as a deep orange red, turns tangerine orange, and finishes a vivid gold. I have failed to capture it's glowing color.

CeeKay

CeeKay - capturing the special effects of light is not easy; I think you've done a good job. And isn't that interesting the way some flowers will age. I have one I call the Changeling that does what yours does, but the colors are reversed. It starts with the yellow and turns deep orange later, usually with a mix of color that makes me think of some trees in autumn.

About the Klone King, it does work well, though as I mentioned, it will work better with newer green growth than with older woody cuttings. It's a simple device really, which someone handy could construct for themselves, if they were able to find a source for the little spray nozzles, and something to burn holes in the plastic tubing. I am not that kind of "handy". :) Anyway, what it is, is a plastic box, the reservoir, into which you place the water and the aquarium pump (that's included, but it's not some special pump, just a regular pump such as I used to use with my fish tanks. When the motor eventually burns out, I can go buy any pump I would think.) Attached to the pump is a plastic hollow framework with numerous holes, into which are placed the tiny spray nozzles. This framework and these little darlings are the real workers, and though they do give you some backup spray nozzles with the initial purchase, you need to baby these and not allow them to clog or get broken. They do clog up after you've been running the thing for some weeks, and it's necessary to stop and clean them out with a piece of wire or whatever so you can continue to get a fine even spray. Oh, and even when you turn your lights off after 12-18 hours, the pump is left on.

It's this misting on the ends of the cuttings that this thing is constructed to do. The cuttings are suspended above the misters by use of another tray with pre-cut holes. What keeps the cuttings stationary are round circles of foam that have been slit on one side, so you can slide your cutting into the foam circle and then reinsert the foam/cutting into the holes in the top tray. The top tray can be lifted out completely with all cuttings in place to check for rooting, but as I was starting so many different kinds of things, rooting at different times, I found it easier to pull individual foam circles out to check that cutting. It didn't hurt the cutting to do so, as it is held firmly by the foam. BTW, I found out even if you aren't using all the available holes, you still have to put foam circles into them or you have water spraying up through them! That wouldn't be so bad except that I have electrical outlets too near there for indiscriminate spraying. In fact, I did go through the process of misting the tops of the plants at least twice a day with a little handheld sprayer, though the instructions said this was unnecessary after the first couple of days.

There's no dome on the thing - the manufacturer says that not only is it not needed, but that the heat generated by the pump, coupled with the heat that a dome would hold in since the whole thing is supposed to be sitting under lights, would be too much for some cuttings to stand. In fact, at one point when checking for roots, I noted that the water in the reservoir felt warm, so I immediately added some cool water to offset this.

OK, I got carried away writing about this thing; will stop now. :)

Alex

Alex, can you let the cuttings stay in the Klone King until the roots are really well developed (say 2 inches or so)? I have an enormous old moss rose that I have never seen anywhere else (someone rooted it from an old rose planted at his great-great grandmother's grave in an old cemetery). This rose absolutely will not root for me and of course this is the one that my daughter desires above all others. Currently I am trying to get it to root over the winter by burying the middle of an attached branch underground- my last try. If this does not work, I might be interested in a small Klone King. To my eye, the rose is actually kind of ugly and if the bush were not just one huge woody trunk, I would simply dig it up and give it to her.

We are supposed to get our first frost tonight, so I guess it is time for me to say goodbye to outdoor zinnias for this year. Alex, you mentioned a greenhouse- do you ever grow zinnias there? Lucky ZenMan having that sweet setup to grow zinnias in his basement. My daughter just bought me a tiny greenhouse (about 6ft. X 5ft.) so I could extend the season for a few potted zinnias and also start some seedlings early next spring. However, I am toying with the idea of setting it up in the (unheated) attic level of my house, with a grow light and small heater, and seeing if I could actually grow a few zinnias up there this winter. It might be more trouble than it is worth!

CeeKay

CeeKay -

Alex, can you let the cuttings stay in the Klone King until the roots are really well developed (say 2 inches or so)?

Absolutely. Actually, you want the roots to be pretty well growing (I waited for at least 3 different 1+ inch roots) before you try to transplant or it may not make the transition to potting soil. I lost some things, I believe because I jumped the gun. I didn't buy any, but there's also a special liquid nutrient that is offered for cloning, so the cuttings are getting fed at the same time. I mostly don't see this as necessary unless you were leaving something in the machine for months. I did buy some rooting hormone gel which is made specifically for the clone machines. I had some regular powdered stuff - RootTone, I think it was, but it was old, and when those yellow roses I mentioned just wouldn't root for me, and I was getting antsy to shut the thing down for the end of season, I bought it and that seemed to do the trick. The three cuttings had callused, and eventually probably would have rooted, but that sped them up, thankfully. My other two roses, as mentioned, only took a week to root as opposed to the several weeks the yellow rose took. As for your antique moss rose, I feel pretty confident that you could get successful green cuttings come Spring, using the Klone King or one of the other cloning machines. I can't say whether any of the other machines are any better, but I will say that if you see one with a dome, avoid it. After reading the material, I am in agreement that too much heat would be generated under it because of the heat from the water pump and being under lights. I think, reading that, was what settled me on the Klone King - intuition spoke to me. :) Use some rooting hormone from the beginning, though, to give things the extra edge. I was cocky and thought I wouldn't need it. Another blow to my gardening ego. Sigh.

Oh, and there are different sizes - some have only 12 slots for cuttings, I think. I was "in the mode" at the time, and John said: "Go for it!", so I bought the one with 36 slots. Nice, but possibly unnecessary. Wish I'd been "in the mode" about 3 months earlier, though, when I first saw the thing advertised, because by the time I bought it, the price had upped about $25!

We're also predicted to get first frost here in the morning. It's been a long season - longest I remember in ages. I have things I need to do outside still, but they are for after the annuals die, so I've been puttering around, twiddling my thumbs waiting. Am not anxious for winter, but am anxious for shutting the garden down for the season, so I can concentrate on other things.

Alex, you mentioned a greenhouse- do you ever grow zinnias there? Lucky
ZenMan having that sweet setup to grow zinnias in his basement.

No, my greenhouse, which is about 8 x 18 ft up against the south side of the house, is not heated. Perennials can overwinter, and many annuals can handle the cold by the time May rolls around and outside temps aren't going into deep freeze for extended periods. As for ZM's basement setup, he'll be the first to tell you that you can have an indoor setup, too with just a shelf or two - or more - and a 4 ft utility light suspended over it. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. You don't have to have temperature controlled germination shelves (sniff), or even high intensity grow lights, etc, etc. My set up is pretty simple, though it's bigger now than it used to be. I have space for 12 flats that are about 16" x 23" and only 6" high. These will hold about 14 6-cell seed starters or 35 (more or less) styrofoam cups which I use instead of plastic pots for various reasons. You could set up a single shelf with one 4 ft light that would handle the equivalent of 2 of these flats worth of plants. That's still alot of plants. And if you wanted to grow some zinnias indoors, you could simply elevate your trays with books or boxes underneath, removing them as the plants grow taller. You getting me? Think I've talked enough. Whew.

Alex

Alex, I had no idea you could grow indoors with just a utility light. I thought it had to be some kind of light with a specific spectrum, and involve a whole lot of research to determine which one. I am getting really tempted to try it this winter. As hubby said, what do you have to lose except a few seeds. I guess it would run up the old electric bill, but I am running 10 heat lamps in my feral cat houses anyway. I wish it were spring already so I could get a Klone King and start rooting cuttings!

ZenMan, where are you? We are way over 100 posts on this message! You must put a stop to this madness and get us a new one! Plus I really need you to tell me if I can crossbreed Profusion Zinnias with standard ones, and I need your opinion on whether or not you think that Bayer Advanced Disease Control can handle alternaria. :)

CeeKay

ZM - you're being paged...

CeeKay, he really is busy at this time when he's setting up the winter garden. I don't know the half of it, I'm sure.

Anyway, yes, a utility light is good enough. I went through the process a couple of years back, from seed to blooms to crosses to gathering seed, and it worked just fine. I only did it with 2 plants just to do it. I kind of need the space for the other stuff I start in March, though, so I haven't done any more.

Alex

YO ZM!!!!!!
Where You At?!?!?!?
LOL LO LOL

As CeeKay is Right My Computer Is NOT a Happy Bunny With Over 100 Posts With FAB Photos......

Hello Alex, NineCrow, CeeKay, and everyone,

Apologies for the delay. I am now right here. Been busy finishing up my outside zinnia project and starting my indoor project. I have started a "belated" new thread, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 45, and I hope to see you all over there soon. I will respond to your questions above over there in subsequent messages. Patience please.

ZM