Fragrance and black spot go together like Fred and Ginger. You can't have one without the other, especially hybrid teas. Some fragrant roses have more resistance to black spot than others.

Are you going own root or grafted on R. fortuniana? Many Floridians go grafted on R. fortuniana to overcome nematode damage. If you go grafted on R. fortuniana, the added bonus of greater vigor that particular rootstock gives may make such grafted roses also less susceptible to black spot.

I know of no fragrant red rose that does not get black spot. Firefighter and Dame de Coeur are great, vigorous red HTs, but do get some black spot; Firefighter less so.

Search the web for the most recently introduced fragrant red roses. They should be more black spot resistant than old guard fragrant red roses. The breeders are waking up regarding concentrating their efforts on disease resistance/proofness these days. People won't buy sickly, diseased roses like they did in the past. Nobody likes to spray roses!

I'm a fragrant rose nut. Therefore since I want to get the best performance out of my roses, I spray for disease...not happy about it, but the other choice is diseased, sickly bushes.

Moses

I grow my roses on their own roots and no spray., The varieties that I want are seldom available at Sam's.

My favorite red is an old hybrid tea 'Dame De Coeur'. It's form is more like a shrub rose, foliage is very clean and flowers are very long lasting both on the shrub and cut. I also like Rhode Island Red, though it tends to sprawl but flower are beautiful, fragrant and foliage is very clean. Can't beat Louis Pliliipe for a red flowering shrub.

For me, Paul McCartney have had problems with dieback, started with 3, now down to 1. First year with Firefighter, so far not impressed.

In Florida, hard to beat "Tea" roses for health and flowers. There are so many y to choose from, including Mrs. B.R. Cant, Rosette Delizy, Madame Joseph among many other.

You're in Florida, where blackspot pressure is high. You're looking at Hybrid Teas, which as a whole are not known for being blackspot resistant. Hybrid Teas were originally bred with exhibition in mind, not as landscape shrubs. They started out as by combining Hybrid Perpetuals, which were often selected for bloom quality over plant quality, with Teas, which were too tender to be grown outdoors north of zone 7. The aim was to get Tea bloom form and better repeat bloom on large-flowered and more cold hardy Hybrid Perpetuals -- and they were modified from that point. To produce large, award-winning blooms for cutting, they were selected for strong straight stems which focus energy on fewer but larger blooms. In a landscape, they don't blend very easily with other plants, unless you create an open space in which you plant several for bedding. If they're too crowded, poor air circulation will exacerbate fungal issues in a humid climate.

My advice would be to look at roses whose plant shapes fit in with what you want, and then narrow down the choices based on their blooms. There's no sense in falling in love with a bloom if the plant will struggle to produce them in your area. Being in Florida, you should look at types which do well in the humid heat. In your climate, the old Teas and Chinas and Noisettes reigned supreme. Their fault elsewhere was their tenderness in areas with cold Winters -- something you don't have. In your area, most will remain blooming pretty much year-round. Pop over to the Antique Roses Forum and check out some threads mentioning roses of these types -- you may find them more in line with what you want to do in your front yard. Also check out Rose Petals Nursery in Florida -- look through their Chinas, Teas, and Noisettes, and click on their accompanying HelpMeFind links for more pics and info. There are other nurseries in Florida, but RPN's listings are easy to peruse by type, and the HMF links are helpful.

I understand the appeal of Hybrid Tea blooms -- they are beautiful, and make for lovely bouquets. If you simply must have some fragrant red HTs, I'd suggest getting them -- for an area set aside as a cutting garden in the back yard, not for landscaping your front yard. You'll be able to fuss with them as you wish, and you won't have to anguish over struggling to keep them attractive during their ugly periods because they're planted out where everyone sees them all the time.

:-)

~Christopher

Below is a shot of Dame de Couer, a one year old own root, taken this morning. The colors are hard to photograph the red is almost black. Notice how clean the foliage is, it has been nearly disease free all summer.

Below is an own root China, a local found rose but is similar to St. David also very clean foliage. Would be great for a hedge. The flowers have a nice fruity scent but are not good for bouquets as they shattered. For a taller hedge, Louis Philippe would give a similar effect.

As Valrose has shown, you will be able to find a few individual Hybrid Teas which may do well for you. Certainly rank highly any fellow Floridian recommendations, such as the 'Dame de Couer' above. But you'll find that compared to the Hybrid Tea class as a whole, such individual cultivars will be few and far between. As a whole, the old Chinas, Teas, and Noisettes are safer bets for landscape shrubs in Florida. And if you see the same cultivars being sold by several Florida rose nurseries, those may be safe bets as well.

:-)

~Christopher

To the ones that replied, I'm humbly thank each one for your wise advise. Earlier this evening I started researching your recommendations and still have not finished going through the list. I've noted plenty of recommendations in my growing list of roses.

Hopefully, I'll get through the remainder of the recommendations tomorrow night. There's a few questions I have but it's probably better for me to complete reading the replies before I post the questions.

After finishing reading/researching/studying all the great recommendations tonight, an overwhelming feeling took over me. So many great ideas.

It seems the antique roses are awesome for no-spray gardens. I really need to study these selections a bit more as i'm intrigued with the possibility of no involvement with some of these old roses, once the plants take to the soil. In any case, some of the teas form a big bush. I was really hoping for a 3'-4' high bush instead of the usual 7'.

What really catches my eyes are Dame de Couer and LD Braithwaite, not necessarily in that order. The appearance of green leaves is a big bonus over sight of BS. Both are beautiful in my eyes.

So a couple of more questions, if I may:

1) when do I order roses for a January planting? Is it order a week ahead or must it be ordered now for delivery in January?

2) how deep of a layer of pine bark nuggets is required for a weed free area for the rose bed?

3) any special soil amendment besides a bit of peat moss for sand soils? I'm planning to get Fortuniana root stock roses for the HT roses but how about own root roses? I add earthworm castings, peat moss and water absorbing/releasing crystals in the soil when planting roses.

Christopher: Thanks so much for making me see possibilities with the antique/old roses. I never really thought about it before but it makes a lot of sense. My researching goes on. It's interesting the better old roses are sold out.

Valrose: Thanks for your recommendations. I believe you recommended the Dame de Coeur in a prior post but I had forgotten about it. Now I wrote it down in my list. Where did you buy this rose or did you propagate from a clipping? Your other recommendations made me research a lot. I started daydreaming about ripping out the 5' wide patch of grass on the other side of the driveway to the lot line, putting up a white fence and planting some of your recommendations. I may get crazy enough to do it too.

Ken: I did buy one of your recommendations in your above reply, about 2 months ago and transplanted it in a big pot. Belinda's Dream seems to have pared back a bit but that's ok as long as it continues to show a vigor for life. There's been a few very small blooms on it so far but I discount these blooms as the plant is way too immature to deliver the expected fragrance with an abundance of blooms. Thanks for your pics. You really helped me think about the other roses. And yes, your guess is absolutely perfect...I did find out very fragrant red roses and disease resistant green leaves are a paradox. Modern HT roses I've planted this year are a lesson learned for me. Fragrance comes with a price: easy black spotting. I was late getting on the spray program (foolish me thought roses don't have issues after looking at so many pics of photogenic rose plants on the net). Also, I really like your Louise Estes. Is it BS free because of your spraying regiment or is the plant naturally resistant? Thanks a bunch for your help. By the way, my JFK blooms are insanely huge...6"+ dia. Yours seem about 1/2 the size. I can post a pic or two if you would like to see. Why would there be such a big difference?

Moses: The more I read your postings throughout this forum, the more I realize how little I know about roses. Thanks for sharing your wealth of information. I'm with you on the need for spraying. Without it, my roses would be doomed to be sticks bending in the wind. I'll be prepared next year when I start spraying much earlier. It's just a way of life to get the nice roses. Strangely enough, my mom has a few roses and totally neglects the roses but yet, her roses are not only fragrant but the plant is free from disease. But it's not the case for me.

Yes, many of the Teas can get large. If you prefer smaller, look at some of the Chinas. There are also many Polyanthas out there that don't get huge or could be maintained smaller, but not as many are fragrant. Most which are will have Tea ancestry -- such as Mlle Cecile Brunner and its sports White Mlle Cecile Brunner and Rita Sammons, Perle d'Or, Marie Pavie and its sport Marie Daly, Clotilde Soupert, Pink Soupert, Lady Ann Kidwell, etc.

If you're able to do it, collecting used coffee grounds from Starbucks will make for a great soil addition. I did it daily for a couple of years, before a job change made that no longer feasible. For your situation, what I'd do is dig out grass just around the perimeter of what will become a new bed, then smother the rest with used cardboard. If you are putting in edging, have the cardboard extend to under it. If you're doing a trench instead, have the cardboard extend into the trench. Then top with mulch to hold the cardboard in place. If you're collecting used coffee grounds, put this down on top of the mulch -- rain will wash it into the spaces between the mulch particles eventually, and earthworms will do the rest. Get this started as soon as possible if you're planting in January -- it will take a few weeks for weeds and grass below to die, and for the earthworms and other organisms to improve the soil.

You could, of course, dig out the grass, but I find that there's always some amount left behind that will invade a new bed. So, even if you go this route, I'd still recommend lining the bed with cardboard before putting mulch down.

Oh, and since I don't know what kind of grass is there, this may not be enough to kill the grass. Now that I think of it, St. Augustine grass is kinda ubiquitous in Florida, and I think it may require some poison to kill it.

I can't speak for all nurseries, but those from whom I've ordered roses all offer delayed shipping -- order now, choose delivery date for later. Of course, the roses I ordered were own-root and in active-growth, not budded and bare-root. The former will be able to be shipped and planted whenever it's neither too cold nor too hot. The latter would be available only during dormant season.

:-)

~Christopher

My first Dame de Couer came from Antique Rose Emporium, the rest I rooted.

Pine bark nuggets will certainly help with weed control, prevent the germination of seed and will smother young seedlings. Without mulch the weeds will drive you crazy, with mulch and monthly weeding, you can have an almost weed free garden. The recommended depth for pine bark is 3"-4", a cubic yard will cover about 100 square feet at 3". An additional 1" applied yearly will help control new weed seed that will eventual come in.

There are extremely fragrant roses available for Florida grower. Clotilde Soupert, Cecile Brunner, Marchesa Boccella are three that come to mind. In cool weather Rhode Island Red is very fragrant. Most teas and chinas are fragrant also but are more of a fruity tea scent fragance then the traditional hybrid tea scent.

I work for a landscape company and we use many old fashion roses in our projects. The roses are a hard sell, folks think that they will be high maintenance. We often include them at no charge, we grow our own so we can afford to do this. Later the rose bushes become one of the most appreciated elements in the garden, with clients requesting that we plant more.

Our site prep is always the same. First clear the area of all unwanted plant material, if it's sod, we remove it by pushing a flat point shovel a couple of inches under the ground to sever the roots. Once the area is raked clean and smooth, we plant the roses. We plant so that the root ball is 1" higher than the ground, if the soil is heavy clay then we plant about 2" above ground level. We water in well and then apply the 3-4" of pine bark.

When I first started this job, 15 years ago. I was skeptical about not enriching soil, planting high and using pine bark but the results are convincing. The plants grow out very fast.

At home I don't use pine bark, it is a cost thing, my beds cover about an acre.

If a rose is not flourishing in a pot, like your Belinda's Dream, you might try planting it in the ground. It is a lot of work to keep roses looking great in pots in Florida. Many commercial growers only sell roses for spring and fall markets, because this is when the potted roses look best.

I already feel the project limits are increasing in scope. Initially, I thought one side of the driveway closest to the house, and one side of the long walkway would be it for the roses. Now I'm thinking of installing a white vinyl fence on the other side of the driveway and ripping out that grass to plant some of these great recommendations. If I do add the fence on the other side, I could use the late morning to evening sunny areas to plant some of those recommended teas and chinas. The shady areas would be fine for shade tolerant plantings.

There's some other questions that arise with the fence idea. It's a narrow strip from the edge of the driveway to the lot line, about 5' or a bit more in width. Along the lot line there's a drainage path to carry the rain waters to the front; very shallow at the back, about 15" or so deep in the front. Last thing I would want is for erosion to occur. I'd think using a geotextile fabric would help prevent erosion. Would this work or is there a better way to prevent the expected erosion? It's because of this erosion concern that I've only planted sago palms between the palm trees on the lot line side of the driveway and kept it grassy (yes, Christopher, it is St. Ausgustine variety). Not really a fan of the sagos but it was convenient.

Christopher and Valrose, thanks for your continued comments and suggestions. I really appreciate your great recommendation. I certainly could use all the help I can get when it comes to landscaping, especially rose selections.

Christopher, I'm curious about your fantastic and deep knowledge on antigue/old roses. Are you in the rose growing/selling/distributing business?

If it matters, I started planted roses this past January in search of a more pleasant enjoyment away from the increasingly demanding realms of my work. Travels may appeal for some but when you have done it for seemingly countless years, simple enjoyment of being in one's home for more than 48 hrs is a dream and travels became a serious annoyance regardless of the destination (had quite a few nice destinations too). So I took a few weeks off that began around Christmas. Eager to do something I never got to do in the last 18 years or so, I built a small screened in porch to the rear of the house so I could enjoy it, And I did. I thoroughly enjoyed building it. Then I bought a few roses. Planted them. I had a joy I had not experienced in such a long time. Bought more. Had more joy planting them. Finished landscaping the backyard. More joy. Bought more roses thinking I could find a space for them. Had more joy planting them. I nourished and pruned the lemon and orange trees, long neglected because of my travels for work. It was fantastic. Told the office, I'll need a 2 week extension and then that turned into another 2 week extension. So many of my friends and family became worried about my changes and asked why I was doing so much long postponed work around the house. I told them I never been happier than when I plant, construct, prune or just appreciate the fruits of my labor. A few thought I was doing these things to put the house on the market and move. Nope. I just want to make my home comfortable, very comfortable, a refuge from the madness of crazy work demands. I did the backyard to a point of contention, now it's time for the front.

I have no idea how this performs in your neck of the woods, but 'Barcelona' is a beautiful red with a lovely fragrance.

No, not in the business. Over the years, I developed a fondness for fragrant flowers, which led me to David Austin's roses, which led me to the oldies he sought to emulate. When I started my current garden a few years ago, I wanted to try and "meet" as many types of oldies as I could after reading about them. I still find them fascinating. For one thing, most of the oldies were grouped by ancestry, so it became easier to make generalizations about them than about the more modern roses, which are more classified by form and function. If you know characteristics about the rose species that went into the ancestry of a particular class of roses, you can make generalizations about most members of that class -- with some exceptions.

:-)

~Christopher

OK. Back on line today. I had kidney surgery Monday and spent some time in the VA Hospital. Healing fine. Now to answer your questions. Louise Estes is disease resistant but not disease free. I spray my roses every two weeks so my garden is pretty much disease free. I choose to grow specific roses and the only way to keep the foliage clean is to spray a fungicide every two weeks. I figure my roses are worth doing this every two weeks. I like Louise Estes so much, I now have 5 bush's of it and will probably add another this coming spring. It has it all for a HT. Strong growth, after 2 yrs long cutting stems, great foliage, beautiful blooms and a nice scent. My JFK also puts out huge blooms but Louise Estes and Let Freedom Ring puts out blooms a little larger. Think 6/8 inches. Most of my JFK's are around 5/6 inches.

Like everyone has said, I use pine bark nuggets all through my beds now. I have used pine needles and they break down to easy and have to have a new layer every 4 months or so. Pine bark nuggets, definitely.

Don't forget, it will take 2 to 3 years for your roses to mature and start looking good.

I was a drywall man most of my working career. I would get home from work, grab a glass of tea and head out to my garden to unwind and relax. I understand all too well where you are coming from. Enjoy your garden and don't stress over it. Nothing is perfect and never will be. Enjoy the little things and every thing else is simple.

I am wondering if you would consider some red floribundas for your driveway planting. I would recommend checking out how these generally do in your area. Lavaglut/Lavaglow, Black Cherry, Oh My, and Europeana. Lavaglut has small individual flowers, but they occur is showy sprays when happy. Perhaps one of these would be of interest. All of them blackspot in my climate, so I would just consider that a heads-up alert.

Hello again. Ken, I wish you a very speedy and painless recovery.

Bustopher...thanks for your recommendations. I'm intrigued with Black Cherry. This may get planted in the back yard. But I also learned the hard way that the older non-patented scent filled roses easily black spot. This is something I want to avoid for the front yard of the house.

So I concluded Dame de Couer will be planted on the right side of the driveway between the palm trees. Internet searches of this rose have all been expressions of wow! I'm a simple guy and nicely appreciate the eye catching beauty of this rose. It seems some reviewers have mentioned this rose as a strong scent, others not. A strong scent would be most welcomed but it wouldn't be disappointing if it wasn't.

Along the length of the sidewalk to the house, I haven't concluded anything at this time other than I'd like to have a few Louise Estes at the end of the Dame de Couer plantings (ie. corner where sidewalk meets the driveway). I simply have to review the great recommendations again.

The white fence along the lot line on the left side of the driveway is a strong possibility. The idea of planting some of the old roses, chinas and teas, intrigues me greatly. With somewhere between 5-6' width to the edge of the driveway, this seems like a perfect spot for some of those old roses. I think it'll look good to see bushy types of roses between the palm trees on the left side, at least up to the shady part.

Just a bit off tangent...I came home to see the roses in buckets thriving well! All of the bucket dwellers are doing better than when I saw them last. Belinda's Dream has grown and taken to blooming a lot. Angel Face the same. But alas, Summer Romance has been growing but no blooms or buds are to be seen. Even the mis-planted Oklahoma Rose has shown great signs of life and had a small bloom (I did a beginner's mistake of planting it in the shade initially). I can plant Belinda's dream on the left side of the driveway, if that project happens. Angel Face will remain in the back yard but will be planted in January. However, I'll keep Summer Romance in a big bucket. I think this plant may be a give away if it refuses to bring forth rose blooms.

The knowledge on this forum is amazing. Thanks once again to all for your great recommendations. There's a lot of work ahead to make this happen. I'll wait for the cooler months to get it done.

I saw this thread come up again on the Antique Roses Forum, and was wondering if you caught it.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4747609/colorful-tall-teas-for-white-picket-fence?n=28

Considering your preference for Hybrid Tea form, I was thinking you might enjoy one of the later Teas -- Rosette Delizy.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5493.0

Teas aren't known for deep red coloration, but there are a few red Teas. You'll find more red Chinas than red Teas. In general, Teas known for softer shades that will vary with the seasons. I'm actually jealous of you for your climate, since you could grow them to their full potential, and be able to pick blooms year-round on them. Here in NJ, I grow most of mine in large pots, bringing them in for Winter. A couple are in the ground, but only about a third of what they grow in a season will survive Winter. "Bermuda Spice" is never without blooms, though they do get smaller during the hottest part of Summer.

Search "Teas" on the Antique Roses Forum:

http://www.gardenweb.com/gardenweb/query/teas/topic=rosesant

:-)

~Christopher

Hello Christopher. You're somewhat correct in your assessment of my partiality for Hybrid Teas but I'm really intrigued how old rose varieties fight diseases like black spot. Where I think it is best for the antique roses would be on the left side of my driveway; they would be in a spot where I could feel very comfortable letting those roses become a nice height bush full of blooms. If I put those old roses on the right side of the driveway, when fully grown, they would effectively block the house and front yard from view, not something I desire. But the old roses on the other side hiding my neighbor's house is a huge positive for me.

You do bring up a curiosity of mine. I wondered if rose plants in zone 9a go dormant in December and January (believe it or not, this area is known to have a few frosty nights, in general; exception was the two polar vortex years...citrus trees had significant damage but palm trees were not affected). From your comment, they may not.

I'll check the antique rose section of the forum. But if you come across another thread like the one above, please let me know. Thanks.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1599667/anyone-growing-teas-in-s-florida?n=14

http://www.gardenweb.com/gardenweb/query/florida/topic=rosesant


:-)

~Christopher

Braveheart is new to me as of last year but was one of the best bloomers this year, and has had almost bs free leaves. It has wonderful vigor and branchiness. Blooms are huge, a beautiful shade of red, but not fragrant.

Palm trees? What kind of palm trees. Hopefully, not Royal Palm trees. They are terrible. They have a huge root system that mats at the ground level they will over take your roses if you just dig a whole and put the roses in the whole. I have ended up digging huge 4 foot deep trenches and lining it so the stupid royals (in my opinion tall weeds). That being said, there are things you can do to still have nice roses even if the palms are around, it might just be a little more work, but well worth it....

One of my best pinks, is Pink Peace. Though mine is on Dr. Huey and should probably start to decline as it is about 5 years old. I would love to find it on the fort. rootstock because otherwise it is really healthy, smells great and puts out lots and lots of blooms. Did I say it smells great?

I have two reds that I love. One is Olympiad. Mine is an own root and I have it in a pot because it is own root. It is doing quite well, and actually put out two bloom right after hurricane Irma. It was saying everything is going to be alright. The other red one I have has more scent than Olympiad but still not a lot, but I got it because of the size of the blooms. That one is Legends. The flowers can be 7 to 8 inches. Makes a great statement for vases. I just purchased Veterans Honor, don't know how it does. The other reds I have is Chyrsler Imperial smells great, but BS prone. Oklahoma smells ok, but also BS magnet.

I have JFK, but it always looks slightly yellow, so not too fond of it. I have Sugar Moon on a friends recommendation, however, she since took hers out because she had problems with disease. Me, on the other hand loved it so much bought a 2nd one. We both live in South Florida. It just goes to show that even in the same zones the micro climates can have an effect on your garden.Though I hear that Pope John Paul does well in Florida and it is not supposed to have a yellow tinge.

Fragrant Cloud is my one of my husbands favorites. (his other is Double Delight) so I always try to have one each in the garden. FC does not do well for me UNLESS it is on Fort root stock. The Dr. Huey ones never seem to make it through the summer.

I have a tiny little Intrigue that I got on Dr. Huey before I knew any better. It keeps growing back wards, but I have had it for 6 or 7 years so it is probably subcomming to nematodes. I did try to get one on fort. but can't seem to find it. So I broke down and bought it again at Costco on Dr. Huey and decided to keep it in a pot, only to find out it was mislabled..... not sure what it is, but certainly not Intrigue.

If you like coral colored roses, I have Regatta that does quite well. Smells nice but not like Intrigue or Pink Peace. If you like floribundas I would recommend Outta the Blue. That one was a purchased mistake for me. I got the name confused with something else, but it was the BEST mistake. He puts out lots and lots of great smelling roses.

Teas do not go dormant in the winter time, but only the tender new growth is susceptible to damage. The temperature has to fall below 28 degrees to cause tip burn. We had sustained temperature of 17 degrees a few years and the teas were fine. Some of the dormant roses have more trouble than the teas with freeze damage, they are lolled into believing that winter is over by long spells of warm weather and then are hit by a late freeze, this can cause dieback infection.

Thanks all for a wonderful education.

Sharon...my driveway is lined with Pindo Palms. These palms are quite old given their heights, survived 2 incredibly harsh winters and never showed any signs of weakness. Obviously, I'd like to be careful and keep them alive, healthy and happy. As for their roots, they generally tend to grow downwards but they do have horizontal roots going outwards 3' or so from the tree. Really not a congestion problem like you mentioned with your Royal Palms.