Blaming the homeowner for not hiring a GC or you for getting involved with a homeowner who is winging it with who knows who on the cab install.

So you templated tops and dindt notice the 3" differential and proceeded to deliver and try to install? doesnt sound like you

JC after this many years in buis. You dont have a return trip, reschedule fee in your Contract ? you are taking work on a promisary and billing later

w/ no upfront written signed contrract to protect you for loss. ?

thatsmuchbetter:

Sorry if I wasn't clear. There was no templating on my part. The homeowner went to a Big Box and bought two vanity tops with undermounted bowls already installed and a back and side splash.

Contracts are nearly useless on jobs less than $1,000.00 or so. I can't cost effectively sue to recover and even if I did the bad internet ju-ju wouldn't be worth it. Most folks are like me and pay for their mistakes.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how you're "paying for your mistake", since you are, in fact, billing for your time. And how does it wreck your scheduling, since you are, in fact, billing for your time?

catbuilder:

I've allocated a day to get this done twice. That means I've wasted that time because I couldn't schedule anything else on such short notice. Furthermore, this lady goes to the top of the priority list, so I may have to bump someone else to get to her promptly. Sure, I can bill for the time I've spent, but I can't bill for the lost opportunities. That's how I'm "paying for my mistake".

I've never hired a GC and have always been the GC for my own projects. Some people can handle it, some can't. I don't think everyone needs one, especially for small projects. It's a lot of work to check & recheck, but I actually enjoy being in control of my projects.

Joseph, why didn’t you discuss drain placement with her at that first aborted trip? I’d want to know that I had to go back with the same cabinet configuration because of the drain. Especially if I wanted to add drawers and that wouldn’t work. I’d want to know if a taller vanity would work too. And I’d expect the contractor to tell me that there were physical barriers to changing the cabinets. I’d be pretty mad that I had to hire a plumber to move a drain all because I wanted to change my counter top. If I decided to do it after the choices were explained, in advance, that would be different.

I get the first mess up. The lady probably doesn’t know about different cabinet sizes and she messed up. But that is when you talk to her about different cabinet sizes, because it is obvious to you, the professional, that she doesnt know what she needs to know to make the right choice. Just telling her to measure the drain position, because not all cabinets with drawers would work with it would be enough. The extra mile would be spending an extra 15 minutes looking over an emailed copy of what she wanted, to say yes or no if it would work. Add that 15 minutes to your bill. But your professional expertise let her down.

Don’t you think you bear a bit of responsibility in that useless second trip?

"Don’t you think you bear a bit of responsibility in that useless second trip?"

Absolutely not.

I was not hired, consulted, or paid to select and/or specify cabinets. It could be that any cabinet she selected would have needed the plumbing changed. I can see into the future, but you've got to hire me to do it for you.

When she called you the first time to install the sinks, why didn't you just tell her then that she would be better off hiring a General Contractor? If you really think most people need a General Contractor to install a sink, sounds like you could have saved her and yourself a lot of trouble by declining the job.

Don't worry. I can install prefabbed vanity tops just fine. And order them in the right size. And move my drain over slightly--not that it's a mistake I'd make, but my as I was finding a good licensed plumber, I ran through a few idiots and one of them installed a drain in the wrong place, so I did move that one.

Now, if you wanted to save yourself the trouble and she didn't insist on special order, she could have picked out a vanity right then for you to pick up. You would have billed more hours on one day. And she would be happier, too.

Jelly toast: Too late. She decided to GC herself, bought the tops, then called me.

You ARE a General Contractor. Did you not foresee that a new cabinet might interfere with the plumbing? Why didn't you just tell her that when you were there? If you, a "licensed general contractor in two states," couldn't take five seconds to advise her (while you were already there!), why would she be better off with another General Contractor?

jellytoast:

It is true that I am licensed to be a General Contractor in two states, however, I don't always earn my living in that capacity. I am a sub contractor here, to the homeowner who is acting as the GC.

Why don't I pursue GC work? It's too competitive and the "Always get three bids" mantra is keeping me away.

As the more experienced subcontractor on the job, offering a word to the homeowner GC to help them not screw up again wasn’t something you felt like doing? Have you never done that on another job where the GC wasn’t the expert in getting the result they wanted without your expertise as a sub? Were you not treating this female person with less courtesy than you would if they were a 30 year old newly independent male GC who happened to be trying to learn what it takes to do the job right?

Let's give Joseph a break. We don't always think of everything up front and this might have been one of those times.

When people post a new thread, it's open for discussion and there are bound to be differing opinions. IMO, joseph's wasted trip was entirely his own fault and he should have given his customer a break.

Hmmm, the original project was just to replace the countertops? It wouldn't occur to me to hire a GC for a small bathroom project like this.

In the last 3-4 years I've had several such projects done in my house -- all by the same contractor -- and we've zipped through the projects without difficulty. Each time he's visited my house, told me in detail what I needed to buy, and set a date to return. I've scrupulously purchased exactly what he told me to buy, and he's come back to install it. Zero problems.

I'm under the impression that -- in this case -- the homeowner made the purchases without an initial consultation with Joseph. I think that's the problem.

" ... the homeowner made the purchases without an initial consultation with Joseph."

"I set the new top on the cabinet and realized the top was for a 21" base cabinet and hers were 18". I explained that she could return the tops and I could reinstall the old or she could replace the cabinets. She choose the latter. I told her to call me when they arrived."

whats happening is novice unqualified(to project manage) homeowners are tryin to shave costs to achieve crap they dont need but want and cant afford

they get hopped up on hgtv and DIY and hooz and set about finding a way to shave costs rather than living within their means OR HIRING a pro to pre-emptively save money the smarter way.

They play GC hire handy whos for this that do bits themselves and then Call Joesephs of the world to do the tricky bits or fix debacles.

as such a percentage of real contractors get caught in the frey via losses.

Leason never forgotten yet it happens from time to time for The Joe's

"Changing a vanity top hardly requires a GC. Any handyman should be able to do it."

If that's the case, why is this lady finding it so difficult?

I'll tell you why. A homeowner pretending to be a general contractor usually doesn't know that the (2) quartz tops with bowls she purchased for $179.00 each (before speaking to me) are for 21" cabinets, not 18". The homeowner doesn't know that the drawer slide hanger of the new cabinets she purchased interferes with the location of the plumbing rough-in. She doesn't know that the duplex receptacles on the walls are in the way of the new side splashes and have to be raised and the wall mirrors pulled and reinstalled.

Other than that, you're handyman's got this.

"couldn't take five seconds to advise her (while you were already there!)" Apparently, only architects, lawyers, interior designers, and KDs are allowed to charge for intellectual property up front. On about 90% of the smaller jobs I do, the homeowner has called me to do one job that they expect to only pay $100 for, but when I get there, they start out asking questions on how THEY should do the rest of the job. So, I do not do those kind of jobs very often. My answer to their questions is always "Pay me to do it." or, "My consulting fees are twice my labor fees." Why? Because they are all doing it deliberately, trying to milk me for information without paying for it. They all know that they can hire me as a GC, but their answer is always "I just need you to do the hard part."

Keep in mind that the pretty cabinet that they REALLY want at the big box store only comes in one configuration in that length, and they convince themselves that you can JUST make it work cheaply. After all, the plumbing parts only cost $3.95

"if they were a 30 year old newly independent male GC who happened to be trying to learn what it takes to do the job right?"

NO! I charge them double so that he never tries pulling that bull of thinking I would do his job for him "since I was already there" again. A hammer in the tool box and a level in the back window gun rack does not make a general contractor. You don't put on a concert before learning how to sing unless your Milli Vannilli.

completely hit me from left field there fred

In regards to charging for consulting . My time is $ , if were in your home i dont care if im swingin a hammer or chatting

Another disadvantage to buying big box Chinese is that the splash may not be from the same run as the tops:

I finished this job today. She is delighted and told me so. The plumber will finish early next week. She'll be under 3K total, even with my drive time.

Unfortunately, even with my hiring a licensed GC, architect, and designer, there were tons of mistakes and redo's on my renovation.

Was this one my fault? Electrician asked me how many recessed lights I wanted in the ceiling of the downstairs shower. I thought one would give enough light. So, electrician started installing wiring for a recessed light in the center of the ceiling in the downstairs shower, directly under the new drain installed in the upstairs shower. Plumber complained; I ended up with two lights in the shower ceiling.

Or was this one my fault? Designer chose different faucet brands for upstairs and downstairs bathrooms, but the same sink and cabinet depth. Fabricator cut holes in the countertops in same position for both bathrooms. I did not realize that the faucets were different lengths (one is an inch longer than the other), so the downstairs bathroom faucet (the shorter of the two faucets) pours water precisely over the drain, while the upstairs faucet overshoots the drain.

Or what about this one? The plumber was re-installing the dishwasher, but realized that he did not have the correct parts to hook it up, so he "winged" it and hoped I would not notice. I ran the dishwasher; it flooded the kitchen floor during the drain cycle. GC decided it was my fault and insisted that I pay his plumber directly to come back and fix the connection, after I ordered and paid for the missing part.

1. "so the downstairs bathroom faucet (the shorter of the two faucets) pours water precisely over the drain, while the upstairs faucet overshoots the drain." This is why I'm rarely a general contractor. The water doesn't fall precisely over the drain? What are we building here, a space shuttle? When you build a space shuttle, the docking mechanism must be precise. Faucet water splash? Not so much. Geesh.

Yes, I'm a retired rocket scientist. My point is that, as a homeowner, we take on a lot of responsibility for renovations, even when we have a professional team on board.

I left the countertops and faucets "as is," but if I had noticed the difference ahead of time, I would have asked the fabricator to push the holes back an inch on the upstairs countertop, especially since this faucet "shoots" the water forward on an angle. (See attached photos.)

As you may notice, I have two other problems with the upstairs countertop:

(1) stain from cabinet towers leaks onto the Caesarstone. I should have wrapped the bottom of the towers in countertop material. And I wish I had gone with the cabinet-maker's suggestion of one center tower between the two sinks instead of two side towers -- way more storage than I needed, and the side towers are too close to the sinks.

(2) I have very hard water, which leaves yellow rings on the Blizzard Caesarstone. Takes a lot of vinegar & water mixture to get it clean. I installed the water "softener" system the GC's plumber recommended: Nuvo H2O - does nothing to help with the hard water problem.

I'd rather wash my face in the first pictured. The two faucets aren't comparable.

retired rocket scientist

re: the faucet spray hitting the drain: I was at first impressed that the faucet for the vessel sink in my powder room sent the water in a beautiful arc directly to the drain. However, when washing hands, they're not down at drain level, they're up a few inches. This places my hands right next to the sides of the bowl. I care less about where the water lands then the functionality of getting my hands comfortably under the water.

re: Joseph's adventure - sorry that 'easy' project took a detour. I'm glad it's all resolved to the homeowner's satisfaction, and she ended up with more counter space and likely more storage than if she kept her old cabinets. Good thing the deeper cabinet fit!

Joseph, if she weren't dumb, she wouldn't have hired you for such a job in the first place. Let's face it.

I still don't see why you didn't run out to a box store right then, gotten a new vanity she picked out, and turned your little 2 hours of billing into 4-5. You would have been a hero and your pocketbook would be happy, too.

Milly Rey:

And suppose the cabinets she likes are special order and not in stock? Do I bill her for the time I've wasted helping her shop?

The customer ended up happy so all's well that ends well. But I still don't understand what point you are trying to make with this thread. If you are encouraging people to not attempt even the smallest job (installing a sink top) without hiring a general contractor, then why do you deal with homeowners directly instead of referring them to a general contractor? If it's not beneficial for HO's to work directly with subs and vice versa, then why do you do it? I don't see how this customer was going to save money either way. It would have cost her on the front end to hire a GC, and it ended up costing her on the back end because she didn't (well, not an acting GC anyway). This seems like a pretty extreme example because most people have enough sense to measure a sink base before buying a top. Those that don't are bound to end up paying for their ignorance one way or another.

jellytoast:

The next time we get an "expert" on Houzz telling a poster how easy it is to save money by doing such a simple job yourself, I'll link to this thread.

People continue to think they aren't getting anything for the markup GCs charge. Obviously they are. In a fixed-price contract they are transferring all the risk of cabinet purchase and installation to the GC. A GC is essentially in the risk buying business. HIs experience is turned into profit by his ability to see into the future.

This lady got lucky; she hired me. Others may not be so fortunate.

Joseph--you have her pick them out on your smart phone right then, showing her the inventory at the box stores and local independent places. She picks it out right there, you run and get it.

And it is a simple job that you can do yourself if you're not dense!

I can't imagine what you did for her that any handyman wouldn't.

The day that the majority of people need to hire a General Contractor to install a sink top or do other simple jobs is the day that we should just give up on ourselves and stop claiming to be an intelligent species.

There are plenty of sub contractors and handy-persons (not to mention DIYers) out there who are completely capable of doing business and providing quality work without this "seeing-into-the-future" gift that is supposedly granted to General Contractors! You think GC's are the only one's with knowledge and experience? General Contractors have their place, but they sure as heck aren't needed in every instance. Your customer may be an exception, but she's not the rule. The population is not nearly as stupid as you would have us believe, lol!!!

Joseph,

Where can I find a fixed price GC?

"In a fixed-price contract they are transferring all the risk of cabinet purchase and installation to the GC. A GC is essentially in the risk buying business. HIs experience is turned into profit by his ability to see into the future."

My GC was cost-plus-plus-plus ...

"Joseph--you have her pick them out on your smart phone right then, showing her the inventory at the box stores and local independent places. She picks it out right there, you run and get it."

Yes, people pick out countertops without seeing and feeling them in person all the time. Why not cabinets? Why didn't I think of this after all these years?

Don't be silly. You're the one who brought up special orders. She's very unlikely to see her special order before it ships. If you know your local stores, you can steer her away from the really bad stuff.