I don't where I ever got the idea to line a border with rocks, but didn't take long to learn that it adds the extra chore of hand trimming the grass! Now I only stockpile rocks on borders with wood chip paths. If anyone has a better idea of what to do with rocks you dig up, please share!

davidrt..why use landscape fabric "covering it with mulch afterwards of course" when you could just use wood chips to start with?..fabric is horrible in my opinion..took me forever to undo the previous owners "landscape work"..fabric with a mountain of mulch and weeds growing on top of it..dry rock hard soil underneath..

deannatoby..I agree with you..lots of "natural" concoctions that are not science based..rattlesnake venom is natural..would it work for slugs?..lol..

The main lingering sacred cow is amending of planting hole back-fill. Along, to a lesser extent with arbitrary top pruning at planting time. It doesn't help, of course that commercial interests still promote these and other long debunked* practices.

*Research scientists were noticing that these two treatments in particular reduced, rather than improved plant response by the late 1960s - it will soon have been 50 years since the light started to be shed, and yet...

I want to speak up in defense of vinegar

the big difference to using salt is that vinegar will be broken down completely by microbes in a reasonable time

salt needs to be diluted strongly, till then it messes up turgor of surrounding plants, destroys the soil structure etcetera

I went to a lecture by James Hitchmough of the Uni Sheffield, when at some convention

he is a real plantsman, visonary(?), person with vison, and calls himself edgedweller~ questioning rules and thinking outside the box

he showed a prairie theme planting for a bank somewhere in the UK, so with the regional climate and flora they have a serious problem with cold season plants that always have a headstart in spring.

for a number of reasons they cant burn the "office building prairie"

so they cut it down in spring and then

wait for a werk or two

for emerging cold season weed seedlings and spray them with vinegar.

I can't remeber the concentration, but doubt it was the 20% stuff.

so, within reason and for certain purpose, like in this case, it works like a charm and breaks down completely harmless, the dormant prairie plants are not touched by it.

and before spraying the maintenace person makes the effort and checks the whole planting, handweeding emerging bigger plants like dandylion,

of which there are very few,

so, like often in life or with gardening, it depends...

"davidrt..why use landscape fabric "covering it with mulch afterwards of
course" when you could just use wood chips to start with?"

A lot of weeds would grow right through mulch, unless you piled it 8+ inches deep, which would be wasteful and/or impractical.

YouTube is one of the biggest offenders........to the point where I will skip over any
YouTube presentation of gardening practices. 99 times out of a hundred
it will just be self-promotional nonsense with no horticultural basis or
support!!

I don't think it's QUITE that bad. I think perhaps 10-20% of horticulture-related videos I've seen on youtube are actually useful, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdt3hnLH_8M

Cardboard under woodchips doesn't require later removal and has worked well to smother weeds in my garden.

weeds can grow in mulch but also grow on top of landscape fabric..

Worst gardening advice is that you have to do everything in the spring - lead by the nurseries, who want you to come buy their product when it is at premium price and they know everyone is itching to garden.

I have no real problem with landscape fabric around a permanent structure such as hedging...in fact, it was the best way to create my willow beds, pulling the lot out after the first stooling season. Wouldn't use it anywhere else though.

Here's another one: that hostas are the be all and end all plant for any garden situation. My next door neighbours live elsewhere on the street and rent out the house to students. As a result, they don't really maintain the small front bed except for a few times a year if they decide to come and clear up the debris that gathers during the course of the year. Well, one of these times they threw down some hostas - plunk plunk plunk, finish. I thought, well let's see what this does...and the result is, not much.

Really, hostas do need some upkeep, and they probably would have been the last thing I would have thrown down for a low (no) maintenance garden. (I would have suggested they throw down Brown Eyed Susans: easy, spreading, tough as nails with no care, cover all the debris, work better with the sun, etc)

Last year, as a complete garden newbie, I fell for the “landscaping fabric” one too. Luckily I’ve cut most of it out of my gardens (the places where I have left it I SWEAR there’s a good reason and I understand I am compromising the soil). I didn’t realize HOW bad it could be until I offered to help my neighbor in her garden (since I had learned quite a bit in my one year). Apparently the former owner of her home had put multiple layers of that thick woven plastic fabric, and SAND....for reasons I cannot understand. We couldn’t get the fabric up so we just tried to cut out big holes and mix dirt and compost with the sand. But this fabric with so entwined with some over grown bushes, and this god-awful thorny mess masquerading as a plant, it was nearly impossible to do anything productive.

I also heard the vinegar “trick”. For me it didn’t work, I used GALLONS of it on a large area over run with invasive plants, after i had whacked the foliage down. Perhaps a stronger concentration might work, but all the poorly researched “articles” i had read said regular house vinegar or apple cider vinegar would work. It didn’t work at all and just made that area stink really bad, also wasted a ton of money.

There's tons of bad advice of all kinds online (health suggestions probably topping the list).

The worst gardening advice I've ever encountered was on a weekly gardening show appearing on a major Houston radio station. The co-host responded to a caller asking for advice on his failing lawn by suggesting that the problem might be "too many" earthworms, and that he should "kill off" some of them.

That was a jaw-dropper.

The worst advice to me is the one given with snobbery. For ex., once a person told me she was out of town on Feb 14th (last frost date in my area) and she wasn’t able to prune her roses. She was truly panicked b/c an “expert” had the ‘do or die’ tone to their recommendation and scared this beginner to complete inaction. In nature, there is more than one way to skin a cat. if you don’t believe it, look at the weeds that grow in crevices everywhere. They do fantastic in less than perfect/magic soil. Mother Nature works with what’s around, so can we.

The cardboard under mulch method works great. There is some weeding needed afterwards especially in my area for the wood violets and wild onions which store energy underground and can out wait the cardboard. Dig out by the roots and they are gone forever.

I love hostas but those poor guys are suffering in the picture above. If I didn't have ravenous deer requiring a crazy amount of spraying to deter them, I would have an entire bed of them with companion plants - in the back in hummus rich soil with a huge amount of fallen leaves for mulch and lots of room for root growth (unlike the pinched, probably dry, maybe too much sun conditions above).

My one issue is advice is multiplied on the internet. For example I'm out of the gladiolus zone and according to many sources they should be an annual here. Don't tell that to any of my neighbors or my garden where they no only overwinter in a multitude of conditions (no microclimate explanation here) but set offsets to the point of being incredibly weedy. That's one example- there are so many! Cannas, some dahlias, some callas (not just the white ones)....I could go on. People in even colder zones have the same surprises.

I shouldn't care, but it would be nice to know what actually grows /dies. I'm getting to the point, I am just planting things hearty to zone 8 and seeing what happens. I have two Amaryllis which are not blooming indoors for me. I think I might plant out near the sidewalk (cough - microclimate-cough) and see what happens.

LOL at the suggestion above about "killing off earthworms". Did this savant provide further information about how one would go about doing that?

If in Texas, w/ a shotgun

Vinegar actually does work as an herbicide. But you need to know how it works in order to use it effectively. The higher the strength of the acetic acid, the more efficient the process. But even table vinegar can be effective if applied properly.

Vinegar does not translocate into the root system as do many other herbicides like glyphosate. It will only desiccate and kill off the foliage so deeply rooted plants - like dandelions - may need additional, repeated applications to achieve the point where lack of ability to photosynthesize finally kills off the root system. Cutting back the weeds before application defeats the purpose entirely!

And even very strong vinegar with a high acetic acid content (horticultural vinegar) will not permanently affect the soil. It is rapidly dissipated with irrigation or rainfall (which is why it suggested to apply on a sunny day) and any soil biology affected will regenerate rapidly. And it has no long term effect on soil pH either.

Well, gardengal, I respect you tremendously, so I certainly will change my mind about vinegar! Can you give any clues for kali as to why hers didn't work? Are some invasive just too robust for vinegar?

As for landscaping fabric, last year my new gardening beds were easily in the hundreds of square yards (I measured), and I ran out of cardboard to use to kill weeds. Had to buy some landscaping fabric. I layered TONS of fall leaves (because we have TONS and I figured, why not?) underneath the cardboard or fabric, with at least 6 inches of mulch on top. Probably overkill. But, the areas sat for a full season and all the grass/weeds, died underneath. Both were easy to work with when ti came time to plant, and because the original soil was so bad I had to bring in compost, etc., and till till till, so in the end the health of the original soil underneath the fabric wasn't as big of an issue. The fabric areas were much easier to rake the mulch off of, but I must say that the fabric areas also seemed to have more compacted and tough soil underneath. The cardboard areas had allowed the leaves to degrade in a more fluffy fashion, whereas the fabric just seems to have squashed things.

I got some hostas from my neighbor with landscape fabric completely engulfed in the roots. the people before her used the fabric. The hosta's roots had grown and just absorbed the fabric, which I am sure is a fairly common phenomenon.

(Does anybody else's computer always auto-correct "hostas" to "hosts"?

As to why the vinegar did not work as planned, I'd consider this as the primary reason: I used GALLONS of it on a large area over run with invasive plants, after i had whacked the foliage down. As I noted, vinegar is only effective on desiccating or burning/drying the foliage.....it will have no effect on cut back plants (stems only) as it will not transfer down into the root system. There will be not much more impact than pouring plain water on the plants if this method is used. And even if foliage remains in place, one will generally need multiple applications before it actually kills off the weeds or invasives. It also makes a huge difference what sort of invasive species we are talking about. Some do not even respond well to strong or concentrated commercial herbicides, let alone something as weakly herbicidal as table vinegar.

Why don't you guys just pour some boiling water on the weeds you want gone? Probably time-prohibitive if you have a large area to deal with, but for sidewalks, driveway cracks, patio, etc it works great. Or use a flame weeder?

Mxk3, using boling water, how long b4 weeds reappear

The boiling water worked pretty well for me for small areas. Wish I could’ve used it for my garden but it was an extremely large area and I don’t trust myself walking up and down my hill with a pot of boiling water haha

NB, that boiling water, used over and over, would probably weaken asphalt by warming and loosening the hydrocarbon component.

" We couldn’t get the fabric up so we just tried to cut out big holes and mix dirt and compost with the sand."

Yes in the one tiny part of my 3 acre garden where I put down landscape fabric (to stop weeds from coming over from a neighbor's yard, that was a veritable disaster zone) after a few years, roots had become entangled. Simple solution if you have the right equipment - pull it up with a "middle buster" or "subsoiler" 3 point hitch attachment. Those uncommon tractor attachments are tremendously useful if you know how to use them.

"Ran out of cardboard...Had to buy some landscaping fabric...But, the areas sat for a full season and all the grass/weeds, died underneath. "

Yes I really do think landscape fabric has a place in some situations, but it is often overused and used incorrectly.

"I have two Amaryllis which are not blooming indoors for me. I think I might plant out near the sidewalk (cough - microclimate-cough)"

Hippeastrum X johnsonii should be pretty foolproof if planted correctly in zone 7a. Warm, sheltered sunny site should be best. Other commercial florist's Amaryllis will not be as hardy.

Once organic mulch placed over landscape fabric decomposes enough - or enough organic litter falling onto rock mulch resting on landscape fabric accumulates - weeds are able to grow on top of the fabric.

And then one has to remove this upper layer and pull up the fabric.

Also if the fabric ever gets torn or poked through any perennial weeds still present beneath the fabric (or growing in from beyond the fabric - giant morning glory (Calystegia) for instance) will come up from underneath.

Weeds with potting medium attached that get dropped or spilled onto the fabric will root down into it from above even with the heavy grades that are used for nursery operations.

Some aspects of mulching with paper products are discussed here:

The Myth of Paper-Based Sheet Mulch - “Newspaper and cardboard sheet mulches are excellent ways to reduce weeds and maintain soil health
in permanent landscapes”

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/newspaper-mulch.pdf

Hello, my name is bossyvossy and it’s been xx years since I laid landscape fabric, ha. One of the hardest things to do was to remove it. I have a partial roll that I’m selling on CL, and somebody will buy it, I’m sure.

I'm proud to say that I've never used landscape fabric..another bad look when you use it - the mulch washes away or disintegrates and you see it laying there wrinkled and faded ugh..

Ah yes I forgot to mention the neighbor I helped with her landscape fabric has tons of massive weeds perforating multiple layers - yay. Made it crazy hard to get any fabric or weeds up. I wish we’d had better equipment, all we had was casual gardening stuff like scissors, a couple trowels and shovels etc.

lol

"that boiling water, used over and over, would probably weaken asphalt by warming and loosening the hydrocarbon component."

Really? That's you're beef?!? Pfffttt...

I still want to know how soon b4 weeds come back using boiling water method

bossyvossy - it will probably vary depending on climate/soil/what weed it is and so on.

But for me when I used this method of pouring multiple pots of boiling water on driveway weeds they didn't come back that summer. They probably would have come back next year though. This will of course vary in each scenario - we didn't have very many weeds in the driveway so it was a small problem

Wow, one application per season is not a lot of work and shouldn’t ruin concrete. Worth trying. Thanks.

Wow - just stumbled on this discussion and I've never felt the need to use landscape fabric either, since I've seen firsthand the outcome over time.

Here's my contribution: somebody told my hubby that he could use roofing paper (the black stuff) under shell mulch. Good grief what a disaster that quickly became!

Unfortunately, I did not know about it until it was too late = (

bossyvossy - I hope it works for you! Best of luck. Like I said, I used it on a small area of some small weeds, so not sure if my results are typical. Be sure to completely saturate the weed with boiling water so the roots get destroyed.

The boiling water will kill the weeds you doused it with, and they shouldn't respout. Doesn't keep other seeds from locating themselves and subsequently sprouting in the area, though... Really worked well when I had a paver brick patio, weeding between tightly-laid pavers is a PITA!

I tried boiling water a few times, but it never seemed to work. I just thought the water had cooled off too much by the time I got it out the door.

Just to go with the picture I posted above, where you can see "evidence" of application of some bad advice: that filled plastic water bottles will prevent animals from peeing in your garden. I'm not certain where this idea came from, but in most cases it just looks like you've thrown some extra garbage in your bed.

Encouraging people to plant invasives because, "They're going to spread from somewhere else anyway" and/or "I planted [invasive plant] and it hasn't spread".

Miz_G hahah I love the meme! I'm always shocked when I see local nurseries selling invasives, I wonder if they don't realize or just don't care? Ugh I hate the mentality "It's going to spread from somewhere else anyway" - no not necessarily, and people using that excuse and planting more of it obviously is going to make it worse -ugh-

With all this talk of using boiling water to kill weeds.... I am thinking of trying out my newly purchased heat gun to do the same thing.

I have a decent run of natural stone walk which gets full of weeds and seedlings from the Brazilian verbena. It's always a pain to get down and clean the run up. I figure hooking up an extension cord and heat gun will make quick work of the job.

Thinking about the mode of action of the vinegar, couldn't you get the same result by repeatedly cutting the plants down to ground level?

Regarding the heat gun, I think Campanula had Sarah Connor fantasies of a flame thrower a la Terminator. Which may be perfect timing, considering James Cameron is working on the next Terminator flick, bringing back some of the original players 35 years later.

"Thinking about the mode of action of the vinegar, couldn't you get the same result by repeatedly cutting the plants down to ground level?"

Yes. In fact, this is one of the most recommended methods of controlling the dreaded horsetail, as it doesn't respond well to vinegar or standard herbicides. Consistently removing all above ground parts as soon as you see them effectively prohibits or severely limits photosynthesis, weakening the plant and eventually killing the root.

Repeatedly weed whacking some invasives I had was really the only thing that helped me as well. Had to do it about 5 times in 1 season, then disposing of the foliage, but I’m hoping they don’t pop back up again.

This Article on quackgrass actually discusses that same concept as a major way of killing it. Repeatedly mowing/cutting when the shoots are small forces it to use up all its sugar reserves from the underground rhizomes and kills it.

Only because it comes up frequently at this time of year, I wanted to comment about the appropriateness or inappropriateness of using the "last frost date" as a planting guide. Many folks (and a whole lotta websites!) seem to think the average last frost date for their area will determine when any planting can take place. This is an invalid assumption.

The average last frost date is typically only an indicator of when it might be safe to plant out cold sensitive plants like annuals or very tender perennials. And a date to count backwards from when starting seeds indoors, so they will be of sufficient size and maturity at a safe planting time. But it has little to no bearing on when one can plant fully zone hardy plants like most trees, shrubs and perennials. These should be able to take frosts easily, although newly emerging foliage may be damaged with a sharp frost but will recover. Generally, the only limitation to when they can be safely planted is the soil condition and if the plant has been hardened off. If the soil is workable and the plant still dormant or if not dormant, adequately acclimated/hardened off, then you can plant any time regardless of when the last frost may be.

Gardengal, follow up question, does his mean direct-sow hardy/perennial seeds can be started before the last frost date?

(dear OP sorry for asking on your thread)

kali, that depends - some yes, some no :-) Seeds are not exactly plants (yet) and are governed by an entirely different set of 'rules'. I would follow whatever recommendations are on the seed pack. Or look up propagation details online.

"Why don't you guys just pour some boiling water on the weeds you want gone?"

Works for me, mxk3. That is how I kill the weeds (and also ants) in my small patio pot ghetto about once a year. It's time consuming, as you said, but highly effective, and except for the ants, nothing in nature is harmed.

Oh no, I don't think boiling water (or any of these drenches, soaks and soil treatments) would be for me - there is a whole world of microlife in symbiotic association with our plants...and much of it is beneficial, even necessary. I am not above using the sock of death (or glove) but less narrowly targeted treatments worry me.