I bought a home in the SF bay area (in a city with an amazingly stringent uptight permitting office, according to my last architect and GC) which had some unpermitted stuff. The city didn't care (not that we asked!). We offered less than the asking price due to that missing load-bearing wall and a few other things.

We have since had many many many dealings with the building department in my city and unpermitted stuff is not an issue. They don't care about prior work.

I would be skeptical of the quality of the work in your case. My house had been done many years ago for the homeowners' use, so they didn't do a crappy job. Flippers have a different motivation. If they want to avoid a building inspection, there might be a reason.

So I think the permit issue is no big deal if the work was properly done. But it's a red flag to me, coming from a flipper. I'd want to pay less for the house, and have an extra inspection done, by YOUR inspector at THEIR cost.

I don't know about CA but around here the homeowner always pulls a permit and gets all inspections done to make sure the work that was done is in code compliance. Seller will never close on the house because they need to get a certificate of occupancy and your attorney will never agree to close on it without that unless he told otherwise by you if you agree to pull permits yourself after the closing before you move in.

Maybe that is your experience in NJ, it is not that way in many, many states.

I wouldn’t buy a flip period. But one without permits? I’d run like heck. Get your money back. Fraud. Report them to the city.

If you move forward, better have some serious contingency funds for when you find their shortcuts. If the city doesn’t make them tear it all out.

I my book if someone flips houses for a living and doesn't get permits, what are they hiding behind the walls that they didn't want the inspectors to see. Yes some permits are stupid. I had a friend who lived in the city limits and technically you were suppose to get a permit to change a light fixture. Like who really would get a permit for that. But your flip house had extensive work done. My biggest concern would be the electrical and plumbing. I would also be concerned if he altered any load bearing walls. Even the best home inspector can't see through walls. I know around here you don't need permits to paint, hang cabinets, or replace windows and appliances. Is the seller willing to pay for a good warranty for the next 5 years that would cover any of his work? It's hard to lose 1k, but I would think hard of all the future problem that could go wrong with the house if the work was not done correctly.

How does a “licensed” contractor think its ok to do this work without permits? What is he actually licensed to do, drive? What else did he do that he thought was ok. You lost 1k, but in the end, it will be the best money you spent and lesson learned by walking away. Actually, dont walk, RUN!

I called the contractor and he said that the work was all done to code. He said that he gave the seller the option to do the work with permits or without permits and the seller opted to do it without permits to save on time and cost.

The sellers position is that "no structural changes were made" and for changes like that in the Los Angeles area, most do not get permits even if it is technically required

@SaltiDawg, Yes this how things work in NJ, a while back they really came down with this when homeowners started to get hurt and structures like decks started to collapse, fires from faulty electrical work, etc started to hit the media and complaints started to flood building departments and I'm not talking only in NJ, this regulation is starting to be adopted in other states as well.

So because of that, every house sold in most municipalities in NJ must get a Certificate of Occupancy before selling their house without that no lawyer will close on it unless you buying as is and even then you have to submit a letter that you will not occupy the premises until the required inspections completed.

The Fire and Housing inspector come out and check everything out, to make sure smoke alarms work, make sure there was no structural alteration, stair alterations, additions, decks, finished basements, etc wasn't done without permits etc. If they see a deck or a basement and there is no permit recorded, HO must get a permit and if any violations they much bring it to code compliance.

Some towns are stricter than others, like my town if there is a fan in the room and there is no permit for it on record, you have two choices, remove it and hang a regular fixture, or you get a letter from the licensed contractor with his seal on it that it was installed correctly and it has a fan box. Each town wants certain things done so the structure is safe and so is the new homeowners.

Since this new regulation came out, code violation repairs have been a big part of the business and I kid you not the "shady work" we come across which was done by the previous HO or by some unlicensed "hack" they hired, it's a disaster waiting to happen and the last thing you wanna see is a family with kids to move into some of this houses and for something to happen...Some are minor items and some are serious structural issues and

I know for many sellers having to go through this process is a royal "pain in the a$$" especially if something was done "halfway fast" and without permits, but amazingly many sellers are willing to do everything necessary to make sure the buyers are safe and happy in their new home, instead of having to deal with something like this after a year being in the house:

Addition with no permit before adoption of these regulations

Hacked up deck job before adoption

I have a whole folder of these beauties, and this is the obvious, easy to spot... if you saw the hidden items we uncover it would make your jaw drop.

I asked our plumber about permitting and he said 90% of the work they do - no permitting is done. It's a big pain. Also, our last permitted roof - the guy stood on the ground, scratched his chin and said looks great. I'd be more interested in who did the work. Ask for details - are they reputable companies? They would not be willing to do a shoddy job. Also, ask for a home warranty. Usually one year is very reasonable.

It depends what the plumber does if he changing the toilet, a sink or a faucet you don't need a permit, if fixtures being moved, the vent is being moved, you opening walls or ceilings, etc you need a permit.

If an electrician is changing a light or a receptacle you don't need a permit... if he adding lights, outlets, moving them, etc you need a permit.

Here is an example, the bathroom was remodeled, the toilet location was changed and this is what the plumber did, not only he screwed up flooring joists, he screwed up plumbing as well. He did the work, patched the ceiling and now the toilet backs up every week.

This GFI was re-routed, and this the splice they left in the wall.

This one they ran a gas line to the BBQ and the plumber also told them you don't need a permit. There was a leak, followed by fire (thank god nobody got hurt), no pressure treated lumber on the deck, the deck burned down to the crisp and they almost lost their house.

This why the towns want everyone to get permits to avoid this from happening, I doubt they get enriched from a $90-100 permit for electrical or plumbing work, they do this to provide safety.

OP said: "The agent said that many do not get permits due to time and cost, the cities ask permits just to make money, and no one will check or care." This agent is full of it and if something would happen he could easily end up in a lawsuit for making that statement and lose the license.

I don't know about CA but around here they check and they fail inspections when something is not done right and since some of the HO take out their own permits saying they will do the work themselves, they go online and find unlicensed trade to do the work, and building inspectors tell me sometimes they have to go back 2-3 times until it's done right... Now imagine when electrical work or plumbing work is being done without inspections.

I walked away from 8-10 jobs just in the last 6 month because people wanted work done without permits to save 300-800 a year in taxes for a deck or a basement.

Homeowners need to wise up and check with the building department if the work they plan to do need a permit or not before they call a contractor so they know whats going on. Because if something happens, like this fire above, and the fire department and building department issues a report which stated the gas pipework was faulty and the work was done without a permit, the HO told us that insurance company didn't cover the damages and they had to pay for all the repairs.

@Janelle, the way they do existing roof inspections when you apply for the permit, you have to indicate how many layers your existing roof has now and how many it will have after you done. They basically want to make sure when they come out there that there are 1-2 layers and not more. Some places they will require a drawing so they can see existing rafter sizes to make sure the roof can carry the second layer.

So when they come for a final inspection, the only thing they can do is scratch their chin and tell you it looks good. I know some inspectors will do a drive-by if they have time and watch how the guy is nailing the roof and I've seen they stop a job because they saw the installer skip on the nails. Some guys with a good eye and roofing experience they can tell if the shingles installed the right way or not, they look how they stagger and if shingles located too low on a shingle which its an obvious defect which can be spotted from the ground.

Good luck.

Walk away from that home. I'm a Realtor and most, not all, of the flip homes I see are poorly executed. Sure the cosmetic items typically look decent, but the systems like plumbing, electrical, HVAC and roof are not in good shape in many instances. Sometimes the shoddy work also shows up in the finishes, but not always. IMO it's not worth it to purchase a home that needs many thousands of dollars of repairs to hidden defects just to save your $1000 in appraisal and inspection funds.

I assume you are still in your due diligence period. This is the type of issue the due diligence is meant to uncover to allow you a chance to either negotiate an acceptable solution (seller getting permits after the fact) or a discount or walk away or something else.

What that agent told you is completely off base. You're expectations are not at all excessive. To me this is a red flag. If you decide to continue with the purchase, you would need to be prepared to get the permits and make corrections after closing to all the defects you can't see right now because they are in the wall or otherwise hidden. I can almost guarantee that the defects are greater than $1000.

Most flippers take shortcuts IME. GN Builders posted some scary examples. What would you do if you had that plumbing set up in this newly flipped home and didn't know about it? Or any of his other examples?

BTW, in my area (S FL) roof permits are required. In fact depending on the municipality or even if you are in an unincorporated area, you need a permit for most improvements, but not all. In Wellington you need a permit to change color of the exterior paint (city permit and HOA approval if you are in an HOA). The code violation fees can be very expensive so this is not something to take on and then ignore or delay once you close.

We had a home inspection done and according to the home inspector, the renovations were done well with no issues in plumbing and electrical. He took note of a few minor repairs. However, I am not sure how far a home inspector can see compared to a city inspector.

The two are totally different. In fact, the home inspector should be listing that as a defect in the report if there is no building permit for the work that was done.

Thanks Denita. We are torn because we have relatives and my boss who says that unpermitted work is super common in Los Angeles and should not be an issue. We are considering asking for a lower price or a credit due to the unpermitted work but unsure of what to ask. We are talking to a contractor to see if he can work on getting everything permitted by the city and how much it would cost. However, this work can only happen if we become the owners.

As an agent I have run into this issue before, but I'm all the way across the country so my market is different than your real estate market. Some buyers walk away or sometimes we can negotiate a discount. Some sellers get the permit after the fact (rare). The credit usually doesn't cover the entire amount to get the permit if the buyer decides to go through with the purchase. And yes, you can only fix it after closing. This is a tough one because the paperwork is one thing but the actual work done is where you need to make sure it is worth taking on this project. Go in with your eyes wide open. Make sure you speak to the building dept to find out what you would need to do to get the permit so you know now if it is feasible or not.

Don't buy the house without enough cash to redo all of the work.

I would worry about what cover ups are inside the walls, that he didnt want the inspector to see, so he didnt get permits.

Run, Forrest, Run!!

You are letting what you think (but have absolutely no way of knowing with any certainty) is a good buy, obscure your common sense.

You are buying a pig in lipstick, what is most probably shoddy work done by a lazy unethical flipper taking shortcuts and knowingly breaking the law to save himself time and money.

And you are going to take the word of this immoral slug and the contractor in cahoots with him that "no one" in that geographical area bothers to pull permits and that all the work is up to snuff?

There is a bridge in Brooklyn that someone wants to sell you...

There will be other houses that will have had permits pulled.

Never get so emotionally attached to a potential aquisition that you abandon reasonable judgement.

Run, Forrest, Run!!

Some people just won’t listen to good advice. They only want you to agree with them.

Just as hope springs eternal, so does the capacity for self-delusion.

Cleopatra isn't the only Queen of DeNile

I cannot believe how many idiots sell homes in reality making 10s of thousands in commissions ! at the buyers expence ALWAYS

if a home passes inspection and was done in a proffesional manor !

are you saying the inspector is stupid and doesnt belong doing his job ?

licenced even !

ok so a flipper remodles a home has done everything to pass inspection and according to you all because he skiped a permit to move wire

your going to condemn them !

remember you lie through the hole transaction not disclosing why you dont let your clients talk ! lol

because buyers have no idea how much they pay you for stupid oppinions and your BS.

6% people $$$ 6000 for every 100000 all for what again

you can afored 20 inspections at 1000 for average cost of commision $20000

and still save the bs,,,you could do without !

oh and escrow is who actually has your back not the realitor know it all !

remember Buyers

realitor COST YOU $6000 per $100000

average 20,000

and do nothing but blow smoke

inspectors do most and escrow does rest !

sellers add commission to price believe me !

and lie to you to buy the homes that belong their clients or their agency !

they lie about the process!

they lie about everything!

if i fits thier agenda

restoring homes is a value to your nieghborhoods every home in the neighborhood starts fixing their homes the minut we start !

flipping homes is who makes this happen,

flipping is hard work,,, and takes smart hard working people

gives work to hundreds ,

i do it everyday and care about our city as does everyone i know in the investment of flipping does,,,

so realitors remember without us you lose 1000000$ of homes and commissions you thieves

ugh!

🧐

I would not be comfortable buying a flip with extensive renovations and no permits. We’ve done 2 major renovations to our 1976 house and the GC got all required permits and inspections both times. You should be able to check for permits prior to even doing an inspection, which I would have done.

California requires sellers to complete and provide to a buyer, long before escrow closes, a standardized Transfer Disclosure Statement. A comprehensive list of questions must be answered concerning the home and its condition, based on the sellers' best knowledge - an investigation to answer particular questions is not required. One of the questions asked is if any work was performed for which a building permit would be required but was not obtained. It's true that certain types of projects, typically simple ones, may commonly be done without permits but what's required at sale is the disclosure of that fact.

The buyer has a "take it or leave it" choice to make if such a disclosure is made and the seller is unwilling to pay to get into compliance..

A false answer to the question constitutes fraud and if discovered after the close, legal action typically will require the seller to pay for all remediation and permits, no matter what is required to do so. Including demolition and rebuilding areas not accessible without doing so, like for example removing wall board to see the framing of walls and or what's in them, like wiring, if applicable.

and HU whatever number is the rest of your ID, not only is your rant ridiculous but all that happened THREE YEARS ago. Evidently you had nothing better to do today.