May consider the flexible LED strips based on some reading I've done. Some of the below links have been helpful though none have what I'd really like to see, which is a one-stop location for up-to-date links to the all the items I should buy.

Total lumens and color spectrum are considerations that according to one source is a figure that is not usually found listed on the LED strips sold by Amazon.

Culling through these articles still leave a lot of questions unanswered, and more specifically, exactly what do I buy, exactly how do I set it up.

• [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/led-dsvw-vd~5142207[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/led-dsvw-vd~5142207)
• http://forum.african-violet.eu/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=923
• http://www.orchidboard.com/community/growing-under-lights/82453-flexible-led-strips-grow-lights.html
• https://www.facebook.com/hector.gesneriads/photos/a.1431421070487438.1073741844.1429468690682676/1745752852387590/?type=3&theater
• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DKSI0S8/ref=as_li_ss_tl?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00&linkCode=sl1&tag=floandfau-20&linkId=442c9539264ae84f46f57fb7aaaad18e

Sometimes the calculations are done and it should work in theory, though the authors may not have tried it themselves.

I thought I was nearing some answers when I saw recommendations for aquarium LEDs, (Are there strips? Not certain.), and calculations for buying a power supply, etc. Still, lots of unanswered questions I'm having trouble finding answered in just one place.

DViolet, I have several industrial plant stands and one of those proper African violet light stands in the living room since my apartment is so tiny there is really nowhere else for them to go, so an entire living room wall is plants. I am gradually changing over to more LEDs and less fluorescents. The plants are still blooming, of course that is not very scientific, but I'm happy with their performance.

I am absolutely not trying to change your mind about what a living room ought to look like, but I'm happy with mine and I get a lot of compliments from visitors. And there is room left for a sofa, loveseat and TV.

Originally there were some side tables and recliners which had to be removed, but to me it was a worthwhile tradeoff.

Of course, there are an infinite amount of Africa violets so one has to draw the line somewhere.

The little shelf you chose is very attractive.

Lucille, what type of LED lights are you using?

I have 3 different kinds, the bulb kind over the orchids, and then the T5 LED 4 foot ones plus the waterproof string (comes encased in a plastic tube) for the African violets. The cacti, succulents and vanda all get sun from the window plus T5 fluorescent fixtures and the plants on the plant stand have fluorescents plus LED T5 tubes..

The violets each get, per shelf, two T5 LED 4 foot fixtures and a four foot strand of the enclosed LED lights.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5142207/led?n=65

I know what you mean about not wanting the industrial looking stand. I bought a wire shelf rack in Dark Bronze, made by Trinity. They are made by different companies and you can get them in white, black and chrome in a variety of places (Home Depot, Lowe's, Walmart, Wayfair, Amazon) but the bronze only comes in a 54 inch height and not everyone has it. Check around for best prices. (The slat shelving is different from the wire.)

The other ones go up to 6 ft. and come in different widths (lengths?), like 2, 3 and 4 ft. They are about 14 inches deep and you can adjust the shelves wherever you like. I had bought some bronze fixtures already but a lot of people just get the T5 or T8 fluorescent shop lights (cooler/less energy use than T12s or as you mention you can use LEDs). Just use zip ties to fasten them to the shelves. One mistake I made was because I got the T5s, I thought I needed the HO or high output but it was way too bright and I had to put plastic screening over it. Laura Perdomo from the Peacock Cottage here locally uses one shop light which she fastens diagonally underneath each shelf, which works for her. (She does have natural light as well.) One thing I recommend is to get some heavy plastic to place on the shelves so you won't get soil or water in the light below. They make liners to fit or you could use that clear stuff that comes on a roll to put over carpet. You can also buy small trays, either cafeteria style (cheap on Amazon and come in different colors) or clear plastic faux cut glass serving/party trays at most dollar stores to set the plants on. I add pebbles for extra humidity. The thing about this unit is that so many companies make it, if you decide in the future to get another one (despite your best intentions to downsize!) you can get one to match.

Shelves. Try to get the folding kind. Try to get a style that you can add onto that matches

The Container store has multipurpose plain black or silver metal shelves that fold up. They come in various widths and heights. They are attractive and can be used for other storage or display items such as books, pantry, dishes. I measured carefully and lined a room with them.

I use those as well as 2 plant stands in the kitchen similar to your photo.

Some stores deliver if you want to go in person.

I also got a glass two shelf wide buffet table from Wayfair for the dining room.

Irina is probably shaking her head and wants to advise us of her serious shelving. I am still at the stage where I think AVs can be part of the decor.

I had one of those Gro Carts. The lights were on timers. It was unsightly and poorly made. It was basically an incubator for starters.

People I know who are serious growers use narrow, wide metal shelving to line entire walls. They have tubes under the shelves. But when they retire from growing, the shelves are not used for other purposes.

Hi everyone, I haven't been posting while giving serious consideration to what everyone is saying. My first posted response is about shelving. I figure that comes first, before ordering more plants, and before installing lights.

I'm getting very close to placing an order today for a white wire shelf unit that might not look too obtrusive in my living room. It is not a decorative, outdoor or folding unit and basically I'll have no use or space for it if not used for plants in that location. After listening to all of you, I relaxed my requirements to only that it now be all white. With all the blooming going on there, maybe you won't even notice the shelves!

Thanks so much for everyone's input -- it has helped and made my planning a lot easier.

Not trying to overthink this but it's more difficult for me add a shelf unit than it is for you all because I have little space in that room and the furniture is not going anywhere any time soon. ;-)

I only have room for about a 30" wide unit, 36 inches is pushing it but probably doable, with not an inch to spare. A 6' unit is too high for the window swag that hangs there, so I'm considering a 4-shelf unit that is 54-inch Tall, 36-inch Wide, and 14-inch Deep that Corrine described.

I have a 28" high window sill so that would put the bottom 2 shelves below the window sill, thereby needing lights on them. The top two shelves would just get by with natural light and no supplemental lighting.

I'm hoping to get some thoughts on this from anyone who'll chime in before I place my order. :-)

Here's what I'm looking at from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Honey-Can-Do-SHF-01907-Adjustable-250-Pounds-36Lx14Wx54H/dp/B005FW1WV4/ref=sr_1_5?s=storageorganization&ie=UTF8&qid=1526925541&sr=1-5&refinements=p_n_feature_twenty_browse-bin%3A3254100011

Thanks again for your comments!

I have this unit and really like it. I wish my other stands were white! This one sits in the kitchen next to the refrigerator. All my appliances are white so I think it fits in well. I would think it would look fine in a living room also.

Yours looks nice Terri! Do you remember where you got it and who makes it? It's a little nicer without the black bands on it.

Sorry, I don't recall where it was purchased but it probably came from Menards or Lowes. It isn't new; I've probably had it for ten years or more.

No matter what we do... our houses turn to warehouses with a garage shelving....

I am going to resist that fate, Irina, but I will not put any money on it! Just a reminder, "D", the wire shelf unit I got has shelves that can be adjusted at one inch intervals, so you can customize it to fit your needs. You can have a smaller gap between shelves for minis and a larger one for standards or other plants, for example. If you look closely at the photo of Terri's unit, it is the same thing, you just can't see the little decorative bit below the shelves because of the trays sticking out a little.

They also have them at Bed, Bath and Beyond, but I'm sure you will pay more there. BTW, although not very heavy, the box is a little awkward to carry, so instead of having UPS drop it off at my front gate, I had it delivered to the store at Home Depot and had them put it in my car. When I got home, I just drove right up to the front door so I only had a few feet to get it inside. Of course, you can do the same thing at Walmart or Lowe's. You could also get your light fixtures at the same time.

The black bands are the spacers holding up the shelves. I never noticed it but they do show up more on the white units. You could just spray them with some white spray paint that adheres to plastic and let them dry well before putting the unit together. Rustoleum makes some but I think even the Walmart brands might work. Just read the label and make sure it will stick to plastic.

The only other suggestion I have is to contact Honey-Can-Do directly and ask them if them make white shelf levelers. Here's their contact page link:

https://honeycando.com/pages/contact-us

Corinne -

I have nice shelves, even 3 IGS ones, bought them second hand. It is not the quality of shelves... it is the total number of them...

Irina, That is the word I was seeking. The big growers I know use what Irina calls garage shelving. At least they all match!

Joanne.. they never match. You acquire them one at a time. But who cares what I have in a basement.

Nice when they have wheels. I can roll it out and work with plants on the other side - and roll it back into the corner.

Your set up sounds ideal.

Thanks for everyone's input on the shelf unit and the awesome advice as to what's out there. I put the unit together and added the shelf liners. Waiting for the lights and wheels to be delivered (would like to pull out to vacuum though this unit seems a bit wobbly when I pull on it).

The top 2 shelves will have natural light. The integrated LED light fixtures I purchased are for the lower 2 shelves below the sill, though I'm not sure how these lights will work out at 6000K Daylight and 1000 lumens.

I actually wanted the 5000K LED light but at 1125 lumens I thought that would be too much light for the plants. Through my research I found that there's some thought out there that you don't actually need a mix of warm and cool LED lights on the violets.

Now, how's this for firm, definite, possible decision -- Costco is having a short time sale of their Feit LED Grow Light that I've seen has some good reviews. Since I hadn't really made my mind up, I wanted to get in on the sale before it was over.

https://www.costco.com/Feit-Electric-LED-2'-Grow-Light.product.100393562.html

I don't see the lumens listed in the specs. Also, what I don't like about these lights is that they're 60W fixtures. I like the idea of using only 10W with the other lights. But I did order them so I can still decide.

With regards to making the choice between shop light fixtures with LED tubes, or integrated LED fixtures, it was a matter of simplicity. The tubes I was considering required that the ballest be removed which is not something I can or want to try...so that immediately ruled that out option!

With nothing set in stone, still open to hearing any discussion on this.

The other 2' LED I bought a few months ago from HD has been working out for the leaves and plantlets, but plants do not seem to thrive and bloom with it.

Once the lights come in, I'll work on shelf spacing. Not yet sure whether standards or semis will do better with the natural light. At least one shelf will be full of the semis. I'm sure there are GW discussions that cover spacing, hopefully using LEDs, so I'm off to do a little sleuthing...

I am afraid that 4 tubes can be too bright. Keep the receipt and a box. Costco has a generous return policy.

Still a little confused on the lighting setup some of you use:

@Tiffu (Oregon 8b) you mentioned that you've been successful with T5 2000lumen white LEDs . Are you supplementing that with warm LEDs? Do you find the 2000 lumen too bright for your violets?

@Lucille(9a) I see from the other discussion thread you got Jarsant LED T5 Integrated Single Fixture Utility Shop Light, LED Tube Light 20W 4FT 2200lm 6500K. In this thread you mention a that the violets each get, per shelf, two T5 LED 4 foot fixtures and a four foot strand of the enclosed LED lights. Are you using two of the Jarsant 2200lum LED fixtures with the strand of enclosed LED lights? If you are, isn't that too much total lumens for violets?

@terrilou I don't recall what lights you might have said you're using. Maybe it's been a while for you but do you remember what the lumen and color temps are for the lights you have put up?

@alabamaav Your setup with 3,700 lumens at 4,000 K sounds like the lumens are especially high. Besides having to lower the time you have them on, what other effect are you noticing?

@irina_co(z5 CO) and others,

Do you think my plans to use (2 ft lights on 3 ft wide shelves) 1000 lumens per shelf is too low for my setup? Perhaps I should add couple of warm LED strands to the 6000K Daylight 1000 lumen fixture I was going to use? Or maybe add another integrated LED fixture in the warm temp to the daylight one I was planning on using?

I don't especially want to place the lights Very close to the plants as more room will allow me to more easily see and enjoy them.

This lumens and distance equation is just one big riddle to me. Can't seem to grasp my head around it.

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Question: How many GW'ers does it take to install an LED setup...

:-]

I'm afraid I can't help much in the technical area and am quite lost in these LED discussions. I don't know much about lumens, K's, & and the like. I'm basically still using the same simple set up as when I started with violets in the mid 1970's: one Glo Lux WS tube and one regular/plant aquarium. These are all T-12's. The lights are about 7" to 10" above my plants. Even my white stand features T-12's. These are 24" bulbs with the same type of tubes. The bottom shelf is lit by T-8 bulbs, both Gro Lites. Because of shelf spacing, the light on this bottom shelf is too strong for violets when new, but gradually, the brightness fades. I run all my lights until they burn out, ten to twelve hours a day. T-12's are old hat, but I know how they work and as long as our electric rates are low, I won't be changing them.

Terri

Dviolet -

sorry for your predicament. 36" wide shelving is always a lighting disaster. 36" fluorescents are expensive and hard to find. 24" fixtures leave low light areas on the sides - which you can use for your advantage growing plants like Petrocosmeas, Primulinas and species Saintpaulias with lower light requirements on the edges.

Lumen is the unit of the brightness of the source. You do not care very much about them. What you care is the light intensity on your leaf level - it is measured in lux or foot candles (10 lux is about 1 foot candle). Even the high lumen source won't give you much light if it is too far. Lower lumen source can work if you keep the lamp close to the plants or if you increase the hours.

I am more inclined towards Terri's setup. It will work 100%. With LEDs... I have some LEDs fixtures in the house - and I still do not feel comfortable. I have Feit fixtures form Costco - 4 feet ones - and at first they where selling 4200K fixtures - and they bleach leaves. Now they are selling 3700K fixtures - and they do work much better for the plants. And I have 24" LEDs from Home Depot - and I use one tube only as a supplemental light for leaf starting. It seems that we do not have very much control over them. You do not know if they will work until you buy, hang and use them for a month.

i.

Thanks Irina, 3 ft. wide is truly a bear.

But the situation may not be as bad as I make it out to be. I'm actually now 3/4s the way to a solution.

I've adjusted the unit so now the 1st three shelves have natural light. Only the bottom shelf needs a light where the distance from shelf to shelf is 19 inches. Maybe I'll just use a 2 ft. shop light on adjustable chains for the bottom shelf.

Good looking unit. Your plants look really nice! Just curious if that is a rather wide windowsill I'm seeing?

Thanks Terri. Yes, it's a wide window.

Just testing out the look with a few plants. When it's done, there'll be more than twice the number of semis on the shelves. Putting some fast food trays under them will allow me to slide them out when watering but so far I've only found white opaque ones. Do you have any ideas where to find the translucent ones you're using? (Hoping it hasn't been too long to find a source any more.)

I found my trays at Ikea a short time ago. I bought a couple at first as a trial and then went back for more. I'm thinking a specialty kitchen/container store might carry them also.

I use the FEIT 48" LED 3700 lumen light fixtures from Costco and have them on for 4-5 hours in the morning. The plants also receive indirect sunlight from a North window. The stand in question is offset from the window against the wall, six feet away. The sunlight alone would not be enough to sustain them at that distance and location. There is another stand set in front of the window sans LED light. Some varieties grow well, others appear to get too much light. Plants with low light requirements should be further from the fixture. Leaves for propagation are covered with plastic wrap, in plastic sandwich bags, or in take-out containers with plastic domes. Use fluorescents if in doubt, as some LEDs are too strong or too weak for plants. I opted for LEDs due to efficiency, quiet operation, and they don't need changing every two years like flourescents. They will get better, but there is still room for improvement in the spectrum.

I wanted to go with that Costco light fixture that Alabama and Irina mention, as it's also recommended in AVM's article about Building an Economy LED Light Stand by J. McKinney.

The closest I can come to that for a 3 ft Integrated LED shoplight is 3,000 lumens, 4000K by Lithonia Lighting at HD.

Got it up tonight and first thing I said was oh boy that is Bright! (Not exactly what I said...but close.) ;-)

Both the DrMeter and iPhone light meter app I bought seem worthless trying to get a read on them. Having no other easy way that I know of to measure fc or lux, I'll start off setting the light at 12 inches above some semis and young, low plants for 8 hours daily, and see how that goes for a while.

Good plan!

The shelf looks good and you don't even notice the spacers.

you might look at baker's racks - they come in various styles, some more expensive then others. but it's possible to get more modern looking ones.

the narrow LED light strips you can simply attach under metal shelf with zip ties.

and just cut them when you decide on different positioning.

I am assuming that this problem has long since been taken care of. I would only mention that with a little effort, heavy duty wire racks on wheels with any number of shelves can be had for MUCH less money than what is available at the big box stores. I used fabric to manufacture makeshift curtains for all of my shelves so the light fixtures are all hidden and the overall effort sort of matches the rest of my decor.

Not the best photo in the world but you get the idea. Having them on wheels makes cleaning the area a piece of cake. I just unplug them and roll them to the other side of the room while I sweep and mop.

Way to go. Having a man of the house with hands installed properly and working - makes a house and home maintenance easy.

I am looking at my SILs - and thinking - how many of them you need to change one light bulb... at least 6. Both of them are great guys.