Just noticed this post here. If you are looking for turface, from what I understand, it is normally used for ball fields, as a soil conditioner, and even as a chemical spill absorbent and for kitty litter (it is basically calcined clay) so you might try a sports supplier or an auto shop for larger quantities. There are threads around GW from people making gritty with Safe-T Sorb or Napa Oil Dri (there are different grades I think). Some also sub crushed pumice for the turface.

Last year I bought a small bag of turface (2 qt) to mix with perlite and potting mix for a few plants and this year to use for a small cluster of ponytail palms in a single pot, but for the quantities that you might need, I would consider the above-mentioned alternatives or look for a "calcined clay" product (but you might need to sift it as necessary). Don't forget to consider Amazon too.

Hey, if you are looking for a mix that will hold up for a few years, then the gritty mix is the way to go. Many people take time getting use to watering in it and still fail while many others succeed... In my experience it has still taken me years to get use to using it but I do well with it at times.

With the 5.1.1, it will not last a long, but is lighter, easier to judge when to water, and very affordable. Products are much easier to find too. I love this mix and by the time it ages to the point it compacts, the roots usually fill the containers anyways..

Myermike where do you buy the pine fines for the 5-1-1?

I buy mine at Agway)

I would use 5-1-1 but I've switched to Coconut Husk Chunks (CHC) and ground coir instead of bark and peat. They last longer, resist compaction better, and they don't go hydrophobic. I just soak the bricks in water with about 250ppm calcium nitrate to rehydrate them and knock out any potential bound up sodium.

Citrus forums are filled with "special sauce" (soil) recipes. Ask 10 people what they use for citrus soil and you will get 11 different answers. What drains well for one climate might be entirely wrong for another micro-zone. Generally speaking Citrus like the same kind of soil that roses like. Rose soil is readily available in zones where you can't buy citrus so it is easy to find. Roses like rich loamy soil that drains well and so do citrus. Roses do not like their root system to be in the soggy wet soil and the same goes for citrus. Roses like citrus like slightly acidic soil. Go to Four Winds Growers website and read soil for container plants and read with emphasis on words like (organic matter, compost, rose soil). In their words,"The perfect high porosity soil mix can be hard to find, but we have found rose garden soil mixes (formulated for outside use) work well." Sandy soil is actually unsatisfactory for many rootstocks such as Carrizo and Trifoliate to name but a few. For that reason, they are giving a thumbs down to cactus mix which contains a lot of sand and peat. From a practical perspective, sand, peat, coconut husk chunks, coconut Choir, sand, calcined clay, gravel, bark, perlite, pine needles are all pretty much nutrient-less. Drainage is very important but also important is a good amount of readily available organic matter.

All I know is that if you use gritty mix in that size pot, they will weigh at least 100 lbs+, and in Texas, you might have to use a drip irrigation to keep them watered in that heat.

" Go to Four Winds Growers website and read soil for container plants and read with emphasis on words like (organic matter, compost, rose soil). In their words,"The perfect high porosity soil mix can be hard to find, but we have found rose garden soil mixes (formulated for outside use) work well."

This issue with using organic materials like this is that they will not hold up for long. They will continue to breakdown and decompose and as that happens, the soil mix will compact and you will lose the necessary aeration and fast drainage required for ANY successful container planting!! Personally, I would rather use a soil mix that holds up longer, is more durable and does not need to to be replaced annually like any mostly organic mix will. I prefer the 5-1-1 over the gritty just for ease of transport and the less frequent need for watering.

Container plantings do not require "readily available organic matter". It provides nothing of benefit and offers a lot of negatives. Nutrients for optimum container plant growth should be provided solely by applied fertilizers rather than relying on the half hearted and ineffective breakdown of any organics.

Although gritty mix is definitely superior I would suggest against it since this is your first time. There is a learning curve unlike other mixes and I would suggest try it first with a smaller plant in a smaller pot. Your pots are also pretty big and gritty will be very heavy. In general it will be about 7lbs per dry gallon. 511 is a better choice for you if you want switch to a well aerated mix.

Some things that you should keep in mind. It is better to remove all/most of the old soil if it is significantly different from the new mix. Second this is not the best time to do this unless you are in a lot warmer climate. It takes a bit of patience and practice to bare-root a plant and repot. I hope you have read all of those bits pretty carefully.

There also some commercial mixes that are fairly well aerated as far as I can tell. I think people here recommend a specific product of Promix brand. The actual product name escapes me. I have never used it myself so cannot vouch for it. I suspect that it may not be as well aerated as 511. Others here may chime in.

I'd go with a slightly modified 511 type mix. Add some extra potting mix for moisture retention.

Josh

Al's mix is ideal for plants like (peppers) that require MORE water (soggy) than would be ideal for citrus. It contains a mix of 5 parts pine bark fines, 1 part sphagnum peat, and 1 part perlite and lime. It will be a very high maintenance mix and would probably consume two or three citrus plants for the average grower. Many people on gardening forums worship this mix and others think it is ridiculous because of the high maintenance required. I respect the fact that it is something you like and something that works well for you but it would be a soggy mess for many and not a good choice for beginners. Growing citrus in pots requires a lot more TLC to keep water, pH, and fertilizer at ideal levels because the roots simply can't develop deep taproots the same way they would in the soil. Again if it makes you happy and it works well for you then enjoy it. I do use a product like Al's but as an add-on soil conditioner and not a potting media.

There is nothing "high maintenance" about the 5-1-1 mix, which is why it is so incredibly popular. It holds up well and doesn't get soggy - and that is extactly what will happen with a highly organic mix like you described previously.

I also do not support the notion that growing citrus in containers is some sort of mystical process that requires a different approach than growing any other type of plant. It's not and the plants do not require any more specialized attention than does the growing of any other permanent container plantings.

Been doing this a very long time and I just do not buy into that notion nor have I experienced any issues with the 5-1-1.

Citrus growers know citrus is a fickle fruit to grow. Four Winds Growers have been doing just that since 1946 and they have 60 different fine varieties of citrus for sale online. They don't recommend a 5-1-1 mix for container planting.

I guess it's rather amazing then the success of all the many growers that do!!

I have to agree with gardengal48. There is no perfect mix, but a gritty mix or a highly water retentive organic mix, will not work well. Something like the 511 would work as well or better than anything. There is no maintenance other than watering and feeding the plant, and should hold up for at least three years, depending on how composted the pine starts out. Citrus are not fickle in the proper climate, and mine are growing like weeds, albeit not in containers, with very little maintenance. I've never seen a "professional" recommend the 511 mix, so it doesn't surprise me. But that's another subject.

edweather, why do you put the word "professional" in quotation marks? Do you know all of these professional people to make that judgment?

Brian, basically this forum is pretty much the only place that recommends the 5-1-1 as far as I know. Growers on the other forum. and the growers that were on the old Citrus Growers forum used various other mediums.

Gardengal, from reading all the postings that are put on this forum, I think it would be better said .as .....successes and failures.

The reason I said "professional" was nothing negative. Probably shouldn't have put the quotes around it. Just my experience that aside from this forum, and a few others, not many people really know about the 511 mix. Professionals and retailers only know to recommend a bagged or baled product that they sell or is easily bought, rather than describing the 511. ....which, imo, is the only downside.....making it. But if one can get a good source for the ingredients, the 511 is the best overall container mix. Also most nurseries, and garden centers, etc. aren't concerned with long term growth of their plants. They move 'em in and move 'em out for the most part, and and average growth medium will suffice. Where the nurseries have a big advantage, over me anyway, is that they know more about fertilizers, and their growing methods (aside from the potting mix) are superior.

I think 5-1-1 is actually an OK medium for anyone to use. After hanging around this forum for a while, I tried it. I put 20+- trees into a 5-1-1 using Repti Bark for the wood portion. After 6 months, I did not like it as well as the peat biased medium that I had been using for years. I recently removed all but one of the trees from the 5-1-1 and went back to Miracle Grow Garden Soil and perlite (not MG potting soil). I left one tree in the 5-1-1 just to compare the tree after a couple years. The most strange thing about this form however, is that the membership evidently feels some sense of an obligation, or duty, to defend the "honor" of the precious 5-1-1 medium. I write this because every time a poster mentions that they use another medium, there seems to quickly be a rush of the membership to defend it, and almost to a member point out any and every presumed dangerous flaw of any medium other than 5-1-1.

I think it’s probably more important to understand the principles behind 5-1-1 than to adhere to it religiously. Any sufficiently coarse, aerated, and durable mix will work fine for citrus. If I lived in the desert, I’d probably want more peat in my mix or a slightly smaller particle size to retain more water. If I lived in Georgia, I’d want a more freely draining mix like gritty or 5-1-1. I have most of my citrus in G&B Organics potting soil (itself basically a 3-1-1 mix), usually augmented with 1:1 with perlite, reptibark, pumice, hydroton, coarse perlite, or most likely a combination of these and they have thrived all summer (and my yuzu spends the entire winter out in the drizzle with no root rot or problems).

Hi, I started this thread a few months ago. I didn't mean for this to become an argument on whether the 511 was good or not, just if the gritty was better for citrus or if the 511 was. I'm not sure why people consider the 511 not be suitable. Al's thread on the mechanics behind the mix made great sense to me, and I figured if my plants can survive and fruit in trash dirt, Al's mix cannot be anything other than a better alternative. A few things I've done the past 2 months:

I have a full drip irrigation system in my pots with 2 micro sprinklers per pot. They are watered once every 12 hours for 5 minutes. They're still in garbage Sta-Green soil, but after I switched to the drip irrigation sprinklers, my dying citrus has started to put on lots of new growth. I think they were just not getting enough water oddly enough. I really thought I was drowning them before, but I guess this isn't the case. For nutrition I use Dyna Gro, which I think works really well. Probably the best fertilizer I've used.

I think I will give the 511 mix a go because it's just way cheaper than the gritty, and the material is easier to find here. (not that locating pine fines was easy, it was ridiculously hard) I haven't repotted yet because I'm scared I'll lose my citrus or lose my citrus fruit on the trees if I repot this late in Texas. When is the best time to repot (not pot-up) citrus for a northern Texan? We get colder winters, but our summers are pretty brutal. I just wish I could find a better alternative for the pine fines. The only ones I located here in Arlington are at Calloways nursery for a ludicrous $7 per bag. Any ideas?

I'm just a poor college student with a big hobby for gardening that I have trouble affording, haha. I'm stubborn in that I want to do everything "right" (I know there isn't always a "right" way) the first time and research as much as I possibly can before just doing "whatever" so I can get the most out of my time. I'm growing citrus because I love citrus fruit, and because I love the smell of citrus flowers more than most things. I'm a huge perfume/fragrance hobbyist as well (why do I pick expensive hobbies?) and neroli/orange flower is some of my favourite smells! Thanks for all the responses!

I have repotted at all times of the year without adverse consequences. Some on this forum have said don't repot, unless it is an emergency (like root rot) until the spring.

As for pine bark fines, you can use Repti Bark instead from Amazon but it is more expensive. It does go on sale periodically. Try Petsmart and https://www.chewy.com/zoo-med-premium-repti-bark-natural/dp/123784. It does not have the fines but I and others on this forum have used it successfully in the 5-1-1 mix.

Turface can be purchased at a landscape supplier. Chicken grit at a feed store. Agway might have the turface and the pine bark fines. Get the ones in the blue bag.

The 'defense' of both the 5-1-1 and the gritty mix (and their hybrids) is entirely justified. If one wanted to study the physics of soils and water movement and how that is applied to the unique requirements of container culture (regardless of plant type), it is very clear to see the benefits of the highly structured and textural attributes of these compared to 95% of any bagged soils you will find. And there is just no place for garden soil, topsoil or lots of organics in any container media. They add nothing of benefit and have all sorts of drawbacks wrt to durablility and particle size that will only impede good drainage and prevent proper aeration.

Brian,

just the fact you even attempted to go further in your suggestion tells me your an honest and caring person here. Thank you for the pictures and info. You could of kept going on with the light levels and size pots in relation to root size and how often you have to do repots but that will take some time. It seems you are in agreement that a good porous mix is best and thank you for sharing your time.

Nice pictures by the way and might I add nice room set up)

Pac,

wowowow. What a beautiful looking tree and other trees. Great job there!You made some very valid and great points.You always do. Good job.

Mike

As far as this Citrus goes, they are different than other indoor container I'm a 5-1-1 convert using reptibark, although I've probably gone even higher 6 or 7 bark to two or 3 perlite to using old 5-1-1 as the peat medium, which I save upon repots. As an in/out hobbyist, the increased need to water in summer is outweighed by the indoor benefits of fast drainage and aeration. I do need to look into heating pads or something before the annual fall bring in.

Thats one prcey light setup.....ouch

A historical note adding to what Mike said about PWT. Al made it his mission to educate gardeners about importance of soil structure, aeration and water holding capacity. In bonsai world this was known for a long time though. Eg. Brent Walston wrote about it in 90's when internet was still not very popular - Why earth is not like a pot. Knowledge was limited to bonsai practitioners. For most gardeners this was too exotic. Al made that knowledge accessible with his own formulations with ingredients that are cheaper and easier to source. I do not think anyone else has delved deeper into the intricacies of soil with science to back it up.

At the same time, over the years, bagged mixes have changed a lot too and have become more accessible to home gardeners. Now some of the better ones even advertise how well they balance moisture and aeration needs. But they have to reach many customers with wide range of knowledge, plants, expectations, goals and local conditions.

Yes, and using mixes specifically for 'potted' plants can be quite tricky to say the least. A balancing act too that is one does not master, your growing experience can be quite limited or very rewarding.

For me it's all about sacrifice's, sacrifices made in order to attain the best possible growing experience possible without sacrificing the integrity of the mix and the vitality of my trees and their root systems. One has to be able to foresee any potential issues before deciding what to use. What might do a great job in the 'summer' might be the death of your trees in the 'winter' months.

For instance:

One could use a mix that hold much more water for the summer while in the end could kill your trees holding too much water come the winter and shorter days.

One could use a mix that holds PWT that can be used to your advantage and disadvantage if it rains too much, stays cold for long periods of time, or gets worst as the mix break down.

One could use a mix that dried out very rapidly, almost too fast for the summer and in the winter and then in summer loose their trees to not enough moisture.

One could also use a mix in which you have to check the moisture levels quite often in each and every pot, for some hundreds, or use a mix that you can water every time you water for all at once without fear of root rot without having to check to see if they need water.

The 511 to me is a good balance. You can add just enough smaller particles to keep the soil mix moist longer in summer while reasonably dry out in the winter in a good amount of time.

You can use it on all your plants and water all your plants at the same time whether they are still moist or not.

The 511 also allows you to store your trees at very cold temps, even though the pots are still moist without fear of rot.

The 511 also dries out evenly and holds its structure much longer than peat or fine particle based mixes..

So If I were to match up the 'pros' with the 'cons'. I'd say the 'pros' far outweigh using a 511 mix or the like in my favor.

It might be a great idea for each of us to decide what you are willing to sacrifice in the winter or the summer and find a happy medium that will work for ALL seasons to save yourself a lot of headache and certain trees their demise.

What is forgiving in the summer time or in a nice warm brightly lit greenhouse structure might not bode so well for trees in less than ideal conditions come shorter colder wintery days indoors.

MIke

Yes, Mike, you're so right! (Hey, buddy!)

That's why I prefer a mix that will dry out better in the Winter, even if that means slightly more attention to watering during the Summer.

Josh

Hey Josh!! Thanks and so good to see you. Stay safe from those fires so close to your house buddy@!

Brian, I love the sounds of your light set up. I'll bet your trees just love all that light. It certainly shows there) I love the fact that you care that much for your trees and that you try and do what's best for them. Great.

Brian, I hear you. I still, have bat guano, worm castings, clam shells, coconut fibers, shells, cubes, coir, bags of happy frog, all kinds of organic mixes I guess that they use to grow marijuana, sand, pebbles, perlite, turf ace, pine bark, mulch, repti-bark, peat, pumice, charcoal, orchid mix, orchiata, and all the other stuff like you, lol

That was before I came to this forum and learned of the very simple 511 method and how to either make it more water retention or less to meet my needs and that of my plants. How to make the PWT in my containers work for me instead of against me.

Out of all that stuff, all I use is the bark, peat and perlite. I have been debating on what to do with all the other extras...Sometimes I will just add this or that as long as my mix is very porous. Anything to make sure my mix does not break down too quickly, and anything that won't stay wet too long or grow fungus gnats.

Good goals right?

Seems you and I have that in common) Oh did I mention that every once in a while I will buy a good quality bag of mix, Pro-mix in particular or Sun-gro which start out very porous but one in which I must change out every year to keep it as porous as the 511 I use. It's important for me to keep all my mixes about just as porous as I can so I can equally water them all at the same time when I want. Makes my life of growing my trees very much simpler. I am OCD, so making sure I can do something well as easy as possible is always my challenge and goal. My success at the end.

Thanks

Mike

Brian - interesting links. I could relate to all the ingredients in the first link since I use exactly those components minus the compost. I mix in partially aged/composted pine as a pine component. For some plants it seems they work better. But also reduces longevity of the mix. I do not have many citrus (may be 7-8 now) but I have many plants - guestimate about 300 including outdoor potted plants. I have three citrus in gritty/bonsai mix and they have the best root systems and also robust. I have to add that I do not go for large plants with lots of fruit production. I generally tend towards keeping plants small - sort of semi bonsai.

Hi everybody, I am sorry to revive an old thread and this is my first post too :)

I am going to give 5-1-1 a try for a meyer lemon I just got from four winds growers. The reason why is that it looks a lot like the hydro drain to waste method I've been using this year to grow the best pepper and tomato plants I've ever cultivated. I was using a mix of Tupur and Grodan mini cubes plus dynagro Grow and Bloom fertilizers.

Now when I read about 5-1-1, it really really sounds like hydroponics to me. Soilless media with high porosity and letting extra water drain to waste plus the recommendation to use dynagro FP!

This might also be a big reason why people have so much success with it, drain to waste hydroponics grows the best plants in my experience.

Pepper Cuts: You are right. Gritty mix is closer to hydro, and 511 is a bit of a more compromise between hydro and growing in soil. In bonsai the soil is of utmost importance. Gritty is one kind of bonsai soil. The particle sizes are chosen to leave lot of air space so that water basically runs through it and a part is absorbed by components like bark and turface to provide a micro humid environment. Depending how well aerated the soil and how much water retaining it is, one may need to water often per day making it even closer to hydroponics.

Thanks for your reply @tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA). This helps a lot.

I am used to drip irrigate 5 times a day in summer with pumps ( large vegetables growing hydroponically in clay pebbles). So I will reuse the same principles to experiment with 511 and fruit trees!

511 Should not need watering everyday except may be when it is very hot. It retains quite a bit of moisture. If you want to reduce the water retention of 511 you can eliminate the peat portion. If you also eliminate the dust portion of the bark it will lot closer to hydroponics like situation. I did that once but I had to water the plant 1-3 times a day depending on the temperature.