Thanks, yes, moving things into the dining area and using the useless space as new dining area is definitely something we are looking at. Our neighbors have done just this. Only downside is that the old dining are space becomes a bit awkward. My thoughts there would be to make that wall (the far right) a built in desk/homework/computer/study area...

Don't want to move the plumbing. My understanding is that can be troublesome but I don't know for sure...

Thanks for the feedback, though. Believe me, any ideas are much appreciated!

What do those doorways lead to?

I agree that moving the dining space to the wasted space will probably work best, but it depends on where those doors lead.

doors on the top of the drawing lead to living room, double doors on the bottom left lead to the patio

Far from a pro, but if you moved the dining to the wasted space you could use the current dining as either a small family/tv room or breakfast or reading

nook. That way the kitchen stays essentially the same. There are some good ideas for very "cozy" family rooms.....for now probably a kids' area. I don't think the walls behind the sofas are necessary, btw.

Thanks Kim, yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. Our neighbors did something similar. The area between the old dining room and kitchen is a bar/penninsula. But now with old dining space being smaller, they put in a very narrow table for study, etc. I was thinking of just putting something along the exterior wall...this photo is kind of what the neighbors's did (won't show more so as not to influence anyone's ideas...

A basic outline of the entire floorpan, and where the rooms are, would help the planners optimize how they all relate. Are you on a slab? Is that why you're hesitant to move plumbing? How high off the floor is the dining window? Is the 13' wall in the dining area interior or exterior? What are your must-haves and what are your wants? Does your lifestyle warrant storage for china, an accessible cookbook collection, tons of cookware, or a huge pantry for storing bulk and canning items?

An example, my kitchen is 23' long and ~13' wide. It had a narrow island running the length with a breakfast area at one end. Both are gone due to my preferences in appliances, work flow, and extreme dislike of the cooktop island. It's now a wide galley furred out for 30" deep countertops. Cleanup has it's own wall by the dining room and the cooktop has exterior venting - two of my must-haves. My oven stack had electrical and plumbing added for a future convection/steam oven - one of my wants.

Do you have a problem with an island? Seems like you have room for a long one and a dining area.

That sounds cool Alex. Ours is about 13 wide as well. Would be curious to see yours.

We are on a slab :(. The 13 foot wall is to the living room. The dining window is counter height at the bottom. One of our ideas was to run counters and so on all along there and then up the side wall. But we thought it might make for a weird "work triangle" getting from the sink to the fridge...but I'm open to ideas...

@suzyq53, nope, not at all...

I think your ideas are good. Island and 12"D cabinets on the other wall give you 3'6" walkways behind and in front of the island

How many people live in your house? How many people cook? Do you have company for dinner often? If so, how many are you usually?

These links are usually helpful at the beginning of kitchen remodels,

New to Kitchen Forum? Read me first!

The Sweeby Test

Thanks Becky. As mentioned in the first post, we are a family of 4 (2 adults, 2 kids). Thanks for the links. You know, I looked at that thread initially and all I saw were a bunch of people bumping it. Then realized that it wasn't displaying the first posts with all the useful stuff. Will be looking over for sure.

As far as company, we don't entertain too much, at least not formally. Usually my wife is the cook. Kids and I are limited to microwaving as far as our cooking skills go.

Yeah, not a fan of the last one but that's because we're stuck with the sink in that spot. "L" layouts are very functional, overall.

I cook a lot, from scratch, and participate in online cookbook of the month/dish of the month groups. We're a family of five and the kids are learning to cook, as well. They and DH are the clean up crew. They get their own area because I'm nice like that ;)

I'm in process but here is the plan. Coffee zone and fridge on south wall (laundry/extra freezer is behind). Pantry, baking zone, prep zone, cooking zone are on the west wall. Clean up and dishes/cutlery on the east wall. I'd like a small table, or two, for more landing zones and decorative appeal. I work alone so something to keep people out of my area, but offer a seat for visiting, would be nice. I'd sit there and gaze at the garden through the sliders.

Be sure to keep the fridge and sink in close proximity. You don't want to schlep foods to be prepped all the way across the room.

deco, your post reminds me of marcolo's famous thread,

Looking for layout help? Memorize this first: Ice. Water. Stone. Fire.

I’ve drawn the kitchen layout this way I hope this helps

Aaron, I like your last layout with the dining room on the left. Consider putting a cooktop in the island offset a bit to the right from the sink (so the cook and anyone at the sink aren’t exactly back-to-back) and then move the fridge down a bit so it’s at the end of that walkway between the cabinets and the island. I think that would be a reasonable work triangle and give you plenty of countertop space all around the big items - fridge, range, and sink. You could do an oven under a cooktop in the island instead of breaking up the island cabinets with a freestanding oven/range combo.

Thanks Alex and Claire. Appreciate all the feedback. Will certainly take all the ideas in and try to get through some of those threads suggested earlier...ice, water, fire, etc. good way to think of things...

A. Is there another Dining Room in the house?

B. Is this the Dining Room?

C. Is this dining area basically an eat-in kitchen?

D. Do you want/need a Dining Room?

I ask the above, because if this a proper Dining Room, I'd never move it to the end where the doors to the deck are. I'd keep that end more informal and open to casual traffic.

Tatts,

Yeah, the original layout had the formal dining room on the right. There was originally a wall separating that part from the kitchen. My drawing didn't show it. So with whatever we do, we'd lose that aspect of having a more formal dining room and just having a kind of eat-in kitchen (which, 99.999% of the time is probably fine)

What does the rest of your space look like? Is it groovy 60's or some refreshed version? I have seen some cool spaces divided with partial height walls. I know you want to update but seeing your style and the bones of the house would help with a direction... If you keep the DR where it is, what need do you have for the useless space you be having? :) Without knowing the rest of your house or how you live, I don't know if you need:

- study or play area for kids

- wet bar for backyard entertaining

- game table

- library area

- home office

- mudroom/back entry from yard (dog wash? utility sink?)

@mnmamax3, here's what it looked like on move in day

Sooo...do you need a real dining room for those special occasions (0.001% of the time)?

If so, I'd leave the dining area as it is and turn the Here be dragons, errrr, ummm...wasted space into the kitchen eating area/homework/rec room.

I just think that the empty space should be casual to encourage more traffic to and fro from the deck.

Something to consider -- do you need more than 8' of patio doors?

@becky, not necessarily, but it's nice to have...

@tatts, yeah, that's one thing we've thought about, i.e, putting some built in desk/homework area in THAT space...not sure what the vision was back in 1965 when this house was built. I think back then, from looking at other homes in the area with the original kitchens, this would have been some kind of breakfast nookish area

That scale is a bit of a pain to work with but the first thing I see is that the range needs to be on an outside wall for venting and since the double doors at the top lead to the LR I would leave that as is and use what you call the useless space a really nice seating area for all those people that want to hang out out in the kitchen and it is nice for the access to the patio. I would like to see some pics of the actual space. Those overhead cabinets that were removed were always a pain IMO . I think if 99,99% of the time you do not need a formal DR then where it is is perfect.

A centered galley would be the best so you can have your dining area and sitting area at the other end

Thanks Patricia. I found a picture of a neighbor's house that had the original 1960's layout. You can see the wall between the kitchen and dining area (with a funky little pass through). The picture of our kitchen a few posts above shows what the previous owner did by knocking out that wall.

At any rate. We have some neighbors who re-did the space by pushing the kitchen into the formal dining are up to the window. Theere is now a bar/overhang between the kitchen and old dining area.

They got rid of the penninsula adjoipning the "useless space" and put a small island (about 30x60) in....I thought it looked pretty good, so we had a similar design mocked up. When that was shared on here by my wife, many people jumped on to critique it...too little space, etc. So that's why I'm here...

Below, the old-school look, taken from the perspective of the useless space by the french doors. Below THAT, a shot of the neighbors new layout, taken from the perspective of the old dining room area. Note that, again, the kitchen comes a bit more into the old dining area than originally...

@Claire...I like that

My opinions are based on my own PITA former layout. Others will not share them, you may not share them, but they're formed through my experience.

I mentioned before that I had a strong dislike for my island cooktop. No venting, a layer of cooking film over everything, not protected enough from anyone strolling by or my curious kids. Your neighbors elected to provide some protection with the elevated bar and go to the expense of an island hood. For best capture, those are recommended to be around 12" wider than the cooktop. Your neighbors didn't choose to do this, probably because the larger hoods are quite a bit more money and they interrupt the line of sight. A better design will put the range/cooktop/venting on an exterior wall. The CFMs work better on straight/shorter runs and it's more economical. The vent hood works better because the back wall prevents the effluent plume from dispersing as much and acts as a guide towards the blower. Better is the word of the day!

If the neighbor's kitchen is 13' wide, the counters out of frame must be pretty shallow. I wonder how wide their aisles are? With all four of you contributing at meal time, you want spacious aisle widths. The area by the fridge is especially cramped and looks like they have to stand to one side to open the fridge, then shift to the other side to open the other door.

Consider that any fixed island you might install will have to have electrical run to it. This means trenching into the slab.

Claire's example is hard to make out details but you'd need a sink on that island. The wall out of frame could be shallow pantry storage.

Thanks Alex. One thing we're doing is having an induction range (in fact, we've already bought it) so that will alleviate the danger factor...

Yeah, the layout that I'm growing a bit more fond of is something like what I put above. An L with island, or galley with island. With or without some very shallow cabs along the (upper) wall. I'm thinking though, that they would cramp things a bit...

Kinda what I'm thinking island is 10' x 42"...again, buffet cabs are optional

Usually my wife is the cook. Kids and I are limited to microwaving as far as our cooking skills go.

Definitely take some time to think about whether you want a one-bum or four-bum kitchen, since this will affect the layout. Does your wife like being "the" cook, or would she eventually welcome some company/assistance in the kitchen? Some cooks, like alex, prefer to work alone, while others prefer to work together. My kids, who are older, now either work with me on the same meal or in another part of the kitchen on a different project (for example, making a cake while I'm fixing dinner).

An induction range does nothing to mitigate the safety issue of boiling water/oil, etc., that is in the pan. That's an important safety consideration as well.

I agree with Patricia on seating for the "useless space". Those doors & sidelights are awesome! So much natural light! Add a rug, some comfy chairs & a loveseat, and bring in bookcases or maybe an electric fireplace for cozy evenings, aka Keeping room.

In our house (a 1994 spec house), we have a similar sequence of rooms. The non DR area has an L-shaped banquette (so no outside access) and table where we eat most meals, and where cats lounge for bird-watching. Pre kitchen re-fresh, we toyed with the idea of shifting the kitchen into the DR (we actually use it for tv room, and placed DR stuff in formal LR space #toomanyrooms), but then we'd have a "useless space" with a banquette. DD suggested cat ramps and cat condos - do you have pets in need of their own space? If we didn't love our banquette area so much, we would have converted it a cozy seating area. But it opens into the great room (with seating, bookcases, and stereo). I am so looking forward to downsizing...

I like your proposed L shape. It reminds me of this kitchen Young House Love kitchen, including the shallow buffet cabs.

I think a 42" wide island will shrink your aisle widths too much. You'd have to shrink it or remove the wall of shallow storage (which would be a bummer!) Remember, you count the handles that stick out and the depth of the countertop. ~36" for standard fridge, 25+ for countertops, ~26 for wall oven and dishwasher handles, etc.

I had induction on the island. Grease/oil pops out of the pans in all directions. The pans are very hot. The glass surface does heat, though not as much as a radiant cooktop. I love it, but the act of cooking still carries cautions. I never had an incident involving a handle getting caught by someone, thank goodness. I was very vigilant about where they pointed but the other family members weren't.

Edit: The two safety features are that it won't turn on without a pan on the hob you're trying to activate and you can lock the cooktop so that it won't turn on, at all. It's nice to put something under the pan for messy dishes but that doesn't work unless it's low heat. Bump it up to high, on purpose or by accident, you'll end up with singed paper. I really hated having to clean grease off the floor on the other side of the island.

Abby, yes, why, we have a cat and a great dane. Cat isn't too big of a fan of the dog...

@wiscokid, no, I realize that, the cold fusion cooktop is still a few years off. Hopefully, induction at least reduces some of the risks. Though, to be honest, I have doubts about it. A search for "induction vs gas" will yield many long back and arguments for or against. Things like, "no professional chef would ever use induction" and rebuttals with youtube videos showing professional chefs using them, along with references to high end restaurants that do as well. WE just like it because a bit safer and kinda cool...

When that was shared on here by my wife, many people jumped on to critique it...too little space, etc. So that's why I'm here...

If you already started a thread on this exact issue — and received feedback on it — why, then, did you start this thread?

Please post a link to the original.

Originally you indicated both doorways at the top of the drawing head connect to the living room... Do you need both doorways? Could you relocate the double doors (or just have a good sized opening) more in the middle? That might give you a little more flexibility/room on both sides of the space... Just be sure that solution does not create additional problems in other spaces or with the flow from the patio.

@abby, yes, that younghouselove does look similar, it looks nice I think, and we wouldn't have the door they had to deal with, though we'd put the range (maybe) along that wall and continuous cabinets along to the end (that is if we didn't put the range in the island)

Alex, yeah, those buffet cabs are optional. Worse comes to worst, I'd just skip them and maybe add a very slim table, not sure...sigh....

@sammy, I wanted some untainted opinions reflecting my own (not my wife's) thought process. Thanks for your advice. What is this, stackoverflow?

@mnmamax3, good food for thought, but I'd hate to move too much. That wall (the upper one) the the main load bearing wall for the second floor and is 2x6, moving too much around would be a PITA and I think affect flow a bit too much...

I like Abbycat's suggestion. Your layout is similar to Young House Love. It might look something like this. I don't know if you need mudroom closets but you could have a 12" deep sideboard on that wall if you don't. Or have nothing on that back aisle. Maybe a nice piece of art.

Young House Love

@Renov8or, I like it a lot. What do you think about the "useless space" on the left? Another table? Was originally thinking squareish counter height thingy...or, could make an even bigger island and add side seating...anywho...

I think side seating would look great. Depending on how formal or casual you like your family dining, either a rectangular dining table or a built-in banquette.

@Renov8or,

Looks good. Do you think the panty and fridge will be weird being on that right wall, or not so much. I was thinking trying to find a way to put them closer to the sink, then the range maybe on the right wall. The problem is the two windows. We could certainly put the fridge between the french doors and sink. But not sure there's enough room for the pantry as well. I've tried some online kitchen planners, but they mostly suck and are laggy/buggy. Might be worth springing for a program than runs natively on my computer and doing it that way.

Our "designers" are the cabinet installers and so on. The down side of that is that A) they are probably getting sick of us changing things so much. And B) they have a conflict of interest and C) they aren't the most imaginative people. (yes, we probably should just pay someone to do a formal design...sigh...we're getting to the 11th hour on this. Thought we had it done, but wife got cold feet, thus are this rethinking...

Aaron, if you post their design you'll. Get great advise here. There are some very knowledgeable folks in these kitchen discussions, but they'll respond more readily to an actual design. Don't worry about it being perfect. They love a challenge.

Assuming you don't want a sink on the island, due to slab foundation, can you move the plumbing along the wall? Switch the sink to the other window to decrease the space between it and the range, to a more functional distance, with the fridge on the same wall. That doesn't leave a very wide tall pantry, but you can utilize the stud space on the long wall. At 13' you don't have space for an island, and standard cabinets on that wall, and a comfortable seating/traffic aisle.

You could also keep the current plumbing, and include a small sink for the secondary prep area, and if you don't need all that space for the dining area, the prep and serving counter could be extended. Keep in mind that this is a rough representation, since the scale is difficult to estimate:

More separation of kitchen and dining for formal dining:

[Houzz--stud-bay storage[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/tap-into-stud-space-for-more-wall-storage-stsetivw-vs~26936417)

New to Kitchens? Read me first.

@mama goose, I like that a lot, yeah we're on a slab, and I'd have to move plulmbing (we've had enough trouble with it as it is, moving the sink away from the vent/drain seems like I'd be asking for trouble, but I don't know enough to say)

I like this though...never heard of the studbay idea. I wen't and googled and love it...we would have some issues, though, is there is a cleanout on that wall, so would have to find a way to cover it...