Paul Barden’s Rose Varieties Are Becoming Rare

5 years ago

last modified: 5 years ago

I am writing this post following some correspondence that I have had with Paul that began a couple of months back. Originally, I contacted Paul to discuss the idea of placing some of his rose varieties in the new Rose Garden at the Summerland Ornamental Gardens in the Southern Okanagan of British Columbia, in order to display his work. Paul was pleased with the idea, but when we began to discuss sources for his roses, he told me that he had lost many of his roses in his personal collection to a very bad winter in 2015. He also advised me that Rogue Valley Roses no longer has some of his varieties and they are not regularly propagating others, so his roses are becoming difficult to find.

Hence this post, which is in fact a request to help gather wood for cuttings which will be propagated as a first step to ensure that Paul’s Roses are not lost. Paul has given me permission to write this post and supports our idea to build a secure collection of mother plants to make certain there is a source for these beautiful varieties. My partner in this project and to give credit where credit is most certainly due, is John Prendergast, john_ca on the forum, who in fact will be doing the propagating of cuttings at his property in California.

Now to the details of what we wish to do and how we foresee it will work. We are asking for help from anyone who has mature plants of any of Paul’s varieties as listed in the second last paragraph below and is willing to help, to take appropriate cuttings within the next month and send them to John. It is most likely that the places where roses are at the right stage for taking cuttings are California and other Southwestern States. If you have appropriate plants and would like to help, please PM John through this site. You can do that by going to one of John’s posts, clicking on his screen name and then clicking message on the page that comes up. We would ask that only those who are keen, willing and able to assist, preferably with more than one needed variety to contact John. For some reason, we suspect there may be a fairly significant response to this post and we do not want to overwhelm poor John if we can avoid it.

John already has plants of Jerri Jennings, Mel’s Heritage, Oshun, Janet Inada and Won Fang Yon, so we do not need wood from those varieties. Paul has plants of Ellen Toffelmeir, Carolin Supinger, Unconditional Love and Gallicandy, so those too are accounted for. We also know of a soon to open commercial source, Hummingbird Roses, for Golden Buddha, October Moon, and Pam's Choice. Mindy, the owner, has offered to work with John.

The list of other varieties that we are particularly wishing to acquire is: Treasure Trail, Licorice Tea, Allegra, Marianne, Siren’s Keep, Barbara Oliva, Hettie, Ettiene, Mel Hulse and Joyce Barden. We know there are others as well.

The final stage of the project will be to approach two further reliable Canadian commercial growers with whom John and I have worked previously; see “A new source of vintage David Austin Roses”; and ask if they are interested in preserving and offering Paul Barden's Roses as part of their collections.

Please wish us luck and help us out if you can.

Cheers, John, Rick and Paul

Featured Answer

Rideau Rose Lad

last year

Paul said: @KittyNYz6"How are your efforts to locate your roses?"

I can't speak to that, since its Rick (@rideauroselad) who was pursuing this effort, not me.

Hello Paul and Other Interested Rose Folk,

I just saw this renewed post and felt a need to at least answer Kitty's query and referral from Paul briefly. I have not posted for a long while, many other things going on in my life right now. This project though is still being pursued. Here is a brief update. I will try to post a more fulsome answer on a separate thread if time allows.

Where we have been, Covid 19 pandemic, border closures, John.ca growing on some of Paul's Roses, as well as many early Austin roses, both of which we wish to create a gene bank for in a Public Garden. The pandemic put a halt to our plans as it did to other "Normals" for almost four years. During that time, John.ca kept propagating and growing on

April 2022? Finally, the US / Canadian border opened to a "semblance" of normality on April 1st. John and his wife spent several days doing the extremely hard work of digging, bare rooting, labelling, packaging, arranging inspection and shipping of more than 50 roses, All of the roses were either Paul Barden varieties, or rare Austin varieties. in the first week of April, I made a 12 hour round trip to Lummi Island, Washington to pick up the roses and clear them with Canada Border Services on their way to the Summerland Ornamental Gardens in the Okanagan Vallery of British Columbia. On arrival, two of my volunteer rose team members and I potted them back up. Total transit time from the Central Valley of California where they were leafed out and ready to bloom at time of shipment to British Columbia, where we still had early spring temperatures and our roses are just breaking bud, 6 days. As you can imagine, this was a huge transplant shock to the plants. I am happy, under the logistical circumstances, or perhaps sad to say, if you are pessimistic, that almost 40% if the roses shipped succumbed to their shipping and transplant ordeal over the spring and summer. Not surprising perhaps because of the seasonal and climate differences and the young age of some of the plants, but not a great surprise either. The surviving roses were later planted for growing on and drip irrigation installed.

Where are we now? The surviving roses are being grown on in the "English Shrub Rose Garden". We just completed the last rose team volunteer day for 2022 this morning. The roses are hydrated, some are winter protected if I think it necessary and all are hopefully ready for thir first real winter. Irrigation has been off for two weeks and we are getting the first gentle rain in almost three months today. Winter is coming finally after yet another very abnormal year, wet spring, very warm summer and a lot of wildfire activity yet again here.

What happened this past season? I was contacted early in the season by Jason Crouch, proprietor ofFraser Valley Rose Farm after he had attended an online talk I gave last November to the Canadian National Rose Society, regarding the rose collections at the Summerland Ornamental Gardens where the roses are ready for winter. We already had a significant collection of early David Austin roses in the Gardens, but John's and Sharon's contribution of rare Austins and even rarer Barden cultivars has given us an extremely significant collection of both.

Jason, my rose team members and I also did some propagating of established English roses from the collection in the Garden in early July. Jason and I are growing them on, and we have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 80 established rare, rooted cuttings that will be offered for sale by Fraser Valley Rose Farm and at the Summerland Ornamental Gardens spring plant sale in May. So, for local Canadian rosarians, there will be a few very rare treasures to vye for. Jason has stated that he wishes to continue our collaboration and propagate more roses from the Summerland Gardens mother plants next summer as well. Proceeds from the roses sold will go to maintaining and caring for the heritage rose collections.

Unfortunately, some of the Barden roses that John and Sharon sent didn't survive the shock of bare rooting and shipping from the Central Valley of California, more than 1100 miles north to the Okanagan Valley. These included Barbara Olivia, Janet Inada, Allegra, and Ellen Toffelmeir. What did survive, 1 plant of Marianne, 1 plant of Jeri Jennings, 1 plant of Oshun, multiple plants of Galicandy, plus I have a plant of Treasure Trail. So, while sadly, we lost some, others will hopefully survive a zone 6 winter and become mature plants in years to come. Plants that we can propagate from, I hope. It is not out of the realm of possibility that John and I will have another go at trying to establish more Barden cultivars in the collection at "Canada's Secret Garden". Time, energy and fate will tell. John and I are both getting up in years and beginning to slow a bit.

Anyway, here are a few images of some of the rare Austin roses acquired through John's generous collaboration that are blooming today in the soon to be renovated new section of the English Shrub Rose Garden.:

Clare Rose

Dove

Emily

Molyneux

And an image of some of the California and other shrub roses growing on in the to be expanded English Shrub rose collection.

Wish the new California roses good luck in their first Canadian winter.

End of report.

Cheers, Rick

Volunteer Rosarian, Summerland Ornamental Gardens

Comments (146)

PDXRobertZ8
last year
True. I am appreciative of that @Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR, and I love the rose they did send, even tho it's not Joyce Barden. HOWEVER, it's a moot point because they technically can't supply those rare treasures if they cannot get a handle on their inventory. :)
User
last year
@Hummingbird Roses I strongly recommend you flower all of them to ID them, before you propagate them. i know of at least one nursery that got Marianne from RVR and has distributed it, but its not the right rose
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Hummingbird Roses
last year
Paul, I definitely will. Those that I've had for a while (Crested Damask, Gallicandy, Ellen Toffelmire, Rook, Golden Buddha, Pam's Choice, Castle Bravo) all look correct.

Those newer to me this year are: Dolly's Forever Rose, Umbra, Marianne, Hettie, Mel's Heritage, Jeri Jennings, Diablo Hawk, Dakota Redwing, Allegra, Joyce Barden. I have seen the blooms on Hettie, Joyce Barden, Jeri Jennings, Dolly's Forever & Mel's Heritage, Diablo Hawk, and Dakota Redwing, and I believe them to all be correct. Rook is 'fabulous"!!!! I love Diablo Hawk too! It's so yummy!!
Nola z5aWI
last year
Can Joyce Barden be identified by just the plant and leaves or does it have to flower to verify? I bought one too from RVR and would like to confirm.
The Rose Geek
last year
Marianne from RVR ?
User
last year
@The Rose Geek That doesn't look correct at all, no. At least, I've never seen it flower like that.

@Nola z5aWI No, sorry. I have to see a flower to accurately offer an ID.
The Rose Geek
last year
Thank you @User 😀
PDXRobertZ8
last year
@User Janet just called me to apologize and offer a replacement. That was thoughtful. She mentioned not wanting to upset you, and I didn’t mention that you knew already. :)
Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
last year
last modified: last year
That looks a lot like my Polka, @The Rose Geek

Although under good conditions it has many more petals than the above photos and is gorgeous in its own right. It tends to look like the above photos when it's a bit hotter outside.
jacqueline9CA
last year
This is such a wonderful thread - very glad that more Barden roses are being put back in commerce!

Re RVR - I have been there too, although it was about 8-9 years ago. Janet was lovely and helpful, but I agree some of her employees had no idea what was what about roses. The "display gardens" were wild and wonderful - worth the visit. I came out ahead by accident - I had ordered Perle d"Or to be picked up at the nursery, and when I got there Janet was not there, and they could not find my order. A nice man walked all around, and finally found a Perle d'Or in a pot to sell to me, so I bought it and left. A week after I got home to CA, another Perle d"Or arrived at my house from RVR!

Jackie
KittyNYz6
last year
last modified: last year
Hi, Paul & Friends,

I am so excited about this thread!!! I’d like a few Paul Barden roses… I am on the wait list for Barbara Oliva, a moss. I read it repeats blooms some. Is this true? It sure is a heavenly beauty!

Photo from RVR…. I have ordered from them and received the correct roses before..

I think the pandemic hit many nurseries hard and they are recovering now….
User
last year
@KittyNYz6 'Barbara Oliva' does not repeat. I'm not sure where you found information to suggest that it does. But I'm glad you're going to grow it!
KittyNYz6
last year
Thanks, Paul! Barbara Oliva is gorgeous! I am in Rogue Valley wait list for her! How are your efforts to locate your roses? I am excited to finally have one of your roses! Your roses are amazing! OGRs are the best!
User
last year
@KittyNYz6 "How are your efforts to locate your roses?"

I can't speak to that, since its Rick (@rideauroselad) who was pursuing this effort, not me.

I've lost a lot of my own named roses in the past 8 years (mostly thanks to the 2015 Deep Freeze) and I haven't attempted to replace them. I retired from rose breeding in 2010 and have not been directly involved in the business since. Two-thirds of the old collection (one acre of the property which housed about 3000 varieties) has either died from neglect (irrigation system failed years ago, and I no longer apply fungicides) or been subsumed by Blackberries. I have no place to put new roses anyway, if I were to get any of those old varieties back.

So hang on to whatever varieties you still have, because some of them may be irreplaceable. That's the way it goes with roses. I think about the hundreds of roses Ralph Moore created in his 70 years of breeding, many of which are now extinct. It doesn't take long, especially in a depressed market.
ColleeninMHD 6a
last year
Paul. The Maryanne I got from you is looking amazing, so many new canes! I am in zone 6, I am thinking that after a few frosts, I might wrap her up in a breathable frost blanket. She is my favorite!
Colleen in Marblehead, Ma.
User
last year
@ColleeninMHD 6a I'm glad its grown well for you, thanks for the feedback! Its a remarkably vigorous rose. Not many roses I know of that will make a 3-5 foot bush in its first year of growth.

As for winter protection, all reports I have received indicate that it will not need any special protection in a Zone 6 climate. Folks are reporting that it is cane hardy to the very tips in cold climates, so I think you don;t need to bother with wrapping it.
Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
last year
Does anyone here grow any of Paul's roses in a dry zone 5 climate? We have long winters with a lot of very dry wind, it's hard on plants. I'd love to know how the cane survival is for these roses in such a climate, since I know they were bred in a much wetter, relatively milder climate.
User
last year
@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) If you can grow any of the Damasks and Gallicas in your garden without difficulty, then you can expect the same performance from any of the Gallica types I bred.
Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
last year
Thanks Paul, that's good to hear! I've only got one gallica and one damask that are very young and new but I'll be watching them to see how they do, with your roses in mind for the future :)
librarian_gardner_8b_pnw
last year
I'm in more mild climate but was certainly impressed with how much growth and how many blooms Marianne put out in just one year from being a band. A wonderful rose, indeed

Magpie, I think you would love it. It has a nice long bloom cycle, too. At least 5 weeks, I think.
Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
last year
Librarian, I've wanted Marianne for quite a while (and Allegra), but I wasn't able to get my hands on them over the last 2 years and now my garden is full. Some roses aren't doing as well as others so far, if they don't shape up I will eventually take them out and a spot will open up for one of these beauties. One day! :)
User
last year
@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) I recall you inquiring about purchasing a plant of 'Marianne' from me in 2021 and again this past spring, but all the plants sold before you were able to make a decision about the purchase. So its fair to say that it was available to you, but you missed the opportunity :-)
User
last year
Thank you @librarian_gardner_8b_pnw for the generous feedback, and the great photos! That rose is no slouch, that's for sure.
fig_insanity Z7b E TN
last year
Marianne is definitely a grower. Now, if Deerlilah and Buckzilla will just leave her alone next Spring, I might get to enjoy her blooms. I lost every.single.bud this past Spring.
User
last year
@fig_insanity Z7b E TN John, sorry to hear that. Here, we have 8 foot fence around EVERYTHING we value, to keep D & B away from it. We'd have nothing in our yard if we didn't fence it.
Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
last year
Paul, yes I do remember that :) I was trying to diligently ask questions to make sure the roses I bought were going to be appropriate for my garden, and while I was inquiring everyone else swooped in with the quickness. And I don't blame them one bit! Took all of about a few minutes for you to sell out, that must feel nice to have your rose creation be so loved.
User
last year
last modified: last year
"Took all of about a few minutes for you to sell out,"

Actually, it took about 5 days to sell out in both years. Sadly, I won't have any for next year - our weather went from 60 to 90 in 48 hours last May, and the cuttings all failed this year.

But I do have about ten plants of 'Allegra', which is the first time I've propagated it in nearly fifteen years!
Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
last year
Paul, I remember you saying that Allegra was hard to strike cuttings from, right? How exciting that there are more!!!! Might they be ready to ship in spring?
User
last year
@Rideau Rose Lad Thank you Rick, for that update! I am very grateful for the effort you're making to archive these roses. Sadly, not even RVR has a surviving plant of 'Janet Inada' (so I'm told) so I doubt it will appear in their catalog any time soon. I no longer have it either.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) Yes, it can be difficult to root. Plants of 'Allegra' will be available for shipping in March or April of 2023, depending on where they are going. For west coast destinations, I can ship this fall.
Rideau Rose Lad
last year
Paul,

I am pretty certain that John has a mother plant of Janet Inada. He sent me a cutting this spring, so perhaps we will have to see if we can try again. I have no doubt he would supply you with a plant if you want to grow it yourself.

I plan to head down to the Huntingdon Beach area next March on a trip with friends. I will see if perhaps John has more rooted plants of JI. I was also very disappointed when the plant of Allegra he shipped succumbed to shock. I tucked the young plants of Jeri Jennings, Marianne and Oshun into a good mound of dry wood chips this morning in anticipation of another forecast cold winter. Time will tell.

Cheers, Rick
susan9santabarbara
last year
@Rideau Rose Lad Thanks so much for the update on the project. I don't think most people realize how important your work is, or how difficult!
librarian_gardner_8b_pnw
last year
I really enjoyed reading your update, Rick. What a big task. I'm sorry that quite a few roses didn't survive the transplant shock, but I'm so happy to hear about the ones that are doing well! Here's to them doing well through winter.
User
last year
Thank you Rick.

I may pursue getting 'Janet Inada' back at some point, but right now, I have no safe* place to plant one.

*Safe = inside the deer-proof perimeter
Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
last year
Thank you Rick for your work propagating and saving these rare roses!
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last year
Wow, Rick. What a labor of love. I feel for John and his wife too.
Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a)
last year
I remember some rose friends want Paul's roses. RVR has some of them in stock. Here are what I see today:

Farside de Mills(Gallica)

Gallicandy(Gallica)

Sugar Jangle(Moss)

Fara Shimbo(Moss)

Sanibel(Miniature)

Black Jade(Miniature)

Little Butch(Miniature, Cl., Polyantha, Cl.)

Jeri Jennings(Hybrid Musk)

Robert’s Wondrous Ruthie(Hybrid Musk)

Pam’s Choice(Floribunda)

Hettie(Floribunda, Cl.)

Mel’s Heritage(Hybrid Wichurana)

Won Fang Yon(Tea)

Dolly’s Forever Rose(Shrub)

Incantation(Shrub)
Nola z5aWI
9 months ago
Paul Barden I finally have a bloom on RVR's Joyce Barden. Could you please confirm that it is Joyce Barden?
User
9 months ago
last modified: 9 months ago
@Nola z5aWI Sure. Show me a photo, please?

Edit: I've seen the photo, and as with previous reports, it is NOT 'Joyce Barden'. So I think its a reasonable assumption that RVR no longer has the correct rose to offer.
LauraLG Z5b-NwPA
9 months ago
I have not gone through prior posts in this thread but i wanted to add (if it hasn’t been mentioned yet) that Peter at Freedom Gardens has a gorgeous Marianne in his garden. When i went to his Open Garden Days earlier this month she was absolutely BREATHTAKING. I took so many pictures of just this rose.
Nola z5aWI
9 months ago
I've read Freedom Gardens is not shipping anymore, so only for pick up.
User
9 months ago
@LauraLG Z5b-NwPA Thank you for those photos. Spectacular in Peter's garden! For me, in this climate, it rarely leans that far orange.

@Nola I don't know about that. Peter's FAQ page still includes mantion of shipping fees. Ask Peter directly.
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
9 months ago
I thought he only ships in the Fall, Nola. Pickup only the rest of the year.
Nola z5aWI
9 months ago
I hope your right, I have an order with him.
Rideau Rose Lad
9 months ago
last modified: 9 months ago
Forgot to mention in my other recent Summerland Ornamental Gardens update post. We now have a number of Paul's varieties going into their second summer in the Gardens. They include:

Marianne, Galicandy, Oshun and Jerry Jennings. I have Treasure Trail in my own collection that I very nearly lost to the winter. But it is alive, albeit struggling a bit and I hope it will come back over the summer. It to will go into the Summerland collection if it lives.

We also have stuck cuttings of Allegra, Barbara Oliva, Marianne, Mel's Heritage, Oshun and Janet Inada that are about 6 weeks in the pots now. So, it is our hope that we will be able to add most of these to the collection as well.

Cheers, Rick
Joe Moose, Zone 9A
2 months ago
last modified: 2 months ago
Any update to this project? Please let us know!
Rideau Rose Lad
last month
Sorry for the late reply to your query Joe. I haven't been on the forum much over winter, busy with other things.

I did go up to the Summerland Ornamental Gardens yesterday to do a quick check on the roses. We had a very difficult winter with a warm November and December, and in early January a sudden flash freeze with temperatures as low as -27 C for a week or so. It is still late winter here and the soil is yet frozen to a degree. Summerland is rated as zone 6b, but we had 5a temeratures with strong arctic catabatic winds and wind chill during the cold snap.

So, on to the roses. Most of them will be going into their 3rd growing season this summer, and so are still immature plants. I am happy to report that all of them survived. Many have quite a bit of cane damage, but they all have live cane close to the ground and some have swelling buds already.

The collection at the Gardens consists of the following: Marianne, Gallicandy, Oshun, Jerry Jennings and Treasure Trail. We also have Allegra, Janet Inada, Mel's Heritage and Won Fang Yon in the greenhouse at Fraser Valley Rose Farm in Deroche. I will continue to look for viable opportunities to acquire more varieties if feasible, but won't be actively seeking them out.

We imported six cuttings of each, along with many more early Austin varieties and a few other hard to find varieties last spring. Jason stuck the cuttings and has been growing them on over winter. I have not spoken with Jason for a month or so, but he is doing an inventory and I will know in a few weeks what took.

As well as putting Paul's Plants into the collection at Summerland, Jason will be growing Barden varieties as well and will no doubt have some for sale in Canada in a few years. We too will propagate from the plants in the Summerland collection when the mother plants are mature enough. We will sell our resulting plants at our spring plant sale and our annual Rose Tour held in June. The proceeds will go to help support the Ornamental Gardens.

So by my count, we have nine of Paul's varieties in the two Canadian collections. They should be secure for a long time in our Public Garden, which is now 110 years old. We of course were unable to get all of the varieties that we might have liked, but we did pretty well in my books. Because the whole idea of the project was to secure and currate some of Paul's varieties in a safe place, I guess we have a success. An additional intent was to allow us to propagate and share these lovely plants with others. Jason will be able to do that better than we can at the Gardens in the next few years and may in fact eventually begin shipping to the US as his new nursery grows. But again, that will be a few years down the road. Even propagating plants for sale here in Canada is still a year or two away. But then this project started in 2019 and we are now entering year six, but we are on the road to reaching our long term goals.

I know many on the forums are familiar with Jason through his You Tube Videos and website. he is young, energetic and a cutting edge nurseryman and Rosarian who shares my passion for preserving rare, garden worthy varieties. For those of you in Canada, check out his website and support him if you can.
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last month
last modified: last month
That all sounds like a success to me Rick.

Rogue Valley Roses here in Oregon just sent me this restock notice with some of

Paul's roses.
Al Mitchell zone 5b (ameri2nal)
last month
last modified: last month
I'm not seeing Unconditional Love listed here, I'm pretty sure its a Barden Rose. It's a mini moss red with good repeat. There's a decent picture on help me find It grew to a little over 2 feet tall for me last year. The flowers don't have much rose scent, but there's a lot of them they have a lot of moss scent which is fun. It has pretty good repeat and has been healthy and hardy in my zone 5B chicagoland garden. Its definitely worthy of preserving. I can send some cuttings this growing if you need them.
Rideau Rose Lad
last month
Thanks for the offer Al. Yes Unconditional Love is a gorgeous little rose, I have seen it grown in California. Unfortunately, there is the matter of the international border that precludes shipping cuttings across the border. That involves expensive inspection fees, border inspections and delays and a lot of logistics, Jason and I have imported a lot of rooted roses and cuttings from California over the past 5 years. But to make it worthwhile we have to import large numbers of cuttings all at once.

Once again, thanks for the offer. I know there are a few other small boutique nurseries in the US that are growing some of Paul's roses. Besides RVR, there is Hummingbird Roses in Michigan and I believe Freedom Gardens in Ohio. So there are a few other sources for other varieties in the US.

Once again, thank you for your kind offer.

Cheers, Rick

Paul Barden’s Rose Varieties Are Becoming Rare

Comments (146)

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