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wishiwereintheup

Options for internet music over home WiFi to multiple tube receivers

7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

I will soon be moving from the Chicago area to a remote area of Michigan's Upper Peninsula once the home remodeling project there is done. Only one FM radio station can be received in the area, however reliable cable internet is available.

I'd like to expand my live music options by somehow putting internet music on my home WiFi and then having someway to feed that into my multiple tube receivers that will be scattered throughout the home. Control can be very simple - only need one channel put on the WiFi at a time to be picked up by any or all of the receivers. Conceptually, I'm thinking one box to select the specific internet music and put it on the home WiFi with minimalist (cheap!) WiFi boxes at each receiver to take the music off WiFi and feed it into the receivers via cables.

I did a Houzz search and only found one similar question from 12 years ago. What are the latest and greatest solutions currently available? Any help & equipment recommendations appreciated.

Comments (15)

  • 7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    My suggestion for the question you asked is to go with Sonos. It works and is easy to use, it's about as simple as that. There was a competitor that's no longer in existence that (in my opinion) had a better system and a better community ecosystem. In case you're interested, it was the Squeezebox product line developed by Slim Devices and purchased by Logitech. Used equipment can still be found. Sonos is to Squeezebox what an iPhone is to an Android. Sonos nearly sets itself up (I've done it for a few friends), it requires little user intervention and maintenance, and it does what you expect. In return, it's inflexible, offers few alternatives, and provides a "my way or the highway" approach, just like Apple products. That's best for many people but not for all.

    The question you didn't ask - running streaming internet music through a tube amp is like distilling your own moonshine to put into the gas tank of a Porsche or Ferrari. Most streaming sources are at 128 kbps. For comparison, a standard CD (which most tube amplifier owners would agree is a VERY POOR sound source) is at 1400 kbps. Even a very high standard stream (there are a few) at 320 kbps has 75% LESS CONTENT than a CD.

    Tube amps are for analog (vinyl) sources and very high quality digital sound. The latter does exist, it's expensive, can be hard to find, and also requires special converters to play.

    You can get the full experience of internet streamed music using a Sonos Connect, a Class D amplifier for under $100 and a pair of foot-high bookshelf speakers or medicre ceiling or wall speakers at every location you want throughout the house. Or, get some of the single speaker or the double speaker Sonos. They're crappy for good quality sound but for an internet stream like Pandora or Slacker, they're just fine. There's no reason to spend money to have high quality equipment to run very low quality sound through.

    wishiwereintheup thanked Elmer J Fudd
  • 7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    There are some gizmos on amazon.com that would appear to do what you want.

    Google discontinued the Chromecast Audio but you can still buy them on ebay.

    You could also use the Amazon Echo Dot, Echo Input, or Echo Link.

    wishiwereintheup thanked wdccruise
  • 7 years ago

    Although I agree with most of what Elmer says, I disagree with his evaluation of CD sound quality. I'm in the process of resurrecting my vinyl collection with a medium quality turntable, but for the few recordings I have both the vinyl and CD version, I can hear very little difference. Usually the CD is better because of lower noise level.

    Regarding streaming sources, Sonos is the most popular because it's easy to use and has good (CD) quality. Audio purists would rather use something that will stream high resolution audio, such as HEOS or BlueSound. I'm not sure you would hear much difference in casual listening, but I'm pretty sure any of these would sound better than radio reception (except, perhaps, for WFMT in Chicago, which does stream); I use TuneIn. Or, a much simpler solution, would be to use an iPhone or Android equivalent and get the app for your favorite radio station. I have it for WFMT. Plug your amp into the headphone connector for your phone (if you have an iPhone7 or later, you will need an adapter).

    wishiwereintheup thanked mtvhike
  • 7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Sorry mtvhike, lower noise level is simply lower noise level. It's not better quality.

    SONOS is not a sound source, it's a wireless transport and sound file management product that can also manage sound files contained on a PC on the network.

    Almost all recording is done digitally these days but at very high sampling rates.

    When the CD standard was set, a compromised standard of 44.1 kHz/16 bit was chosen because one CD only has the capacity of between 650 and 700 megs. Had a higher sampling rate been chosen, multiple CDs would have been required for each "album". Sound sources have to be specially mastered for CD distribution because of the known problems of depth and dynamic range the limited sampling causes. It's like comparing this:

    Original sound source is to a CD of smaller size (because of limited sampling and so less data)

    as is

    A CD to a low bit rate MP3 file of the same sound, and for the same reason.

    From best and most data to least, quality in the same relationship from highest to lowest

    Original source---->CD------->MP3

    An analog vinyl album has more of the sound from the original source and so "sounds better".

    Higher sample rate digital files are now sold and so long as your system's DAC (digital to analog converter) can handle the higher rates, the sound is noticeably better. HD Tracks is one such site.

    An example I have is the Sgt Peppers album. Take the track Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. From the 2009 remaster in FLAC form, the file is the CD standard sampled at 44.1/16 losslessly compressed to 22 megs. A different version of higher quality, purchased from HD Tracks, is sampled at 96kHz/24 bit and the lossless FLAC file is 67 megs. The depth and quality of sound of the HD version is noticeably better when played on my midrange system.

    Not everyone hears the quality difference, and not everyone has equipment that will faithfully reproduce the sound source. My transport system, a now discontinued former SONOS competitor, can natively play up to 96/24 files.

    Streaming music sources (like Pandora) and Tune In Radio have abysmal sound quality, providing even less than you'd get from a crappy 320Kb MP3 file. Think of that as less than half as good as a CD. If that's what someone wants to use and finds the sound acceptable, fine.

    Many (most?) people don't hear the difference between higher and lower quality sound sources. That's normal. You can say "it sounds the same to me" and that's valid, don't say two differing qualities "are the same" because they're not.

  • PRO
    7 years ago

    wishiwereintheup


    I see that this thread is still lingering like the fog...and by now I'm sure you're experiencing analysis paralysis - And although there are some good points made about streaming to a tube amp and digital encoding - I'm assuming that you want to continue to use your amps. I would still recommend SONOS or Denon's HEOS to keep all your music sources and control in one place -don't over think it, with a good amp and speakers the streaming music will sound great,

    Good luck.

  • 7 years ago

    Elmer, as far as I know, Sonos cannot stream high resolution files - it's limited to CD quality. Again, as far as I know, both HEOS and BlueSound do stream up to 96K/24Bit files (assuming such do exist). Using my own sound system (which I am in the process of upgrading), I cannot hear the difference; hopefully I will after the upgrade. That's why I decided to forgo Sonos and bought into BlueSound (by purchasing their cheapest speaker, to test out the interface). I intend to get an amplifier of higher quality, along with a BlueSound streamer and better speakers, but haven't done that yet.

    I spent some time digitizing some vinyl records I have, saving them as Flac, as well as 320Kb MP3 (my car can't play Flac). I have one such record from the 1950s which, of course, wasn't released as a digital file. I discovered that Sony recently re-mastered the original tape and released it as an SACD. I hoping a comparison of this with the original vinyl will be significant.

    Actually, I could purchase a high-res file from HDtracks (before I discovered the remastered Sony), but nowhere on HDtracks website was the analog source they used disclosed.


    It's interesting that when Sony (which had purchased Columbia Records) started releasing classical music on SACDs, the recordings were all from before CDs were available; I assume that's because when CDs became mainstream, the original recordings were 44/16 digital and they had to go back to the earlier analog master tapes.


    So, to cut this long response shorter, for me, the Vinyl vs CD vs High Res quality is still unsettled FOR MY EARS!. I am enjoying this discussion with you.


  • 7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "Elmer, as far as I know, Sonos cannot stream high resolution files - it's limited to CD quality. "

    Yes, mostly right. CD is 44.1kHz. This page says Sonos will handle 48 kHz too, a minor difference better but still limited.

    Sonos file compatibilities

    But unless your using Sonos Connect and plugging it in to a capable component system with good speakers, the little Sonos speakers and systems most people use will have little chance of producing the dynamic ranges the higher quality files can produce.

    "but nowhere on HDtracks website was the analog source they used disclosed."

    I believe (75% certainty) that the tracks they sell come from the master copies. Older masters will be analog, newer ones will be in the majority digital.

    All distributed music, whether vinyl, digital, or whatever, needs to be "mastered", a process that takes the master copy and processes the signal to produce the sound in a format compatible with the media to be used and with adjusted audio settings that are mindful of the limitations and idiosyncrasies of the particular media itself. For any given album, if you have a question about the source, I'd contact them and ask.

    Many recording artists over the years, especially with CDs, are unhappy with how far from the "studio recordings" the distributed copies are. It's why many continue to release their work in vinyl form.

    Neil Young has been especially vocal and active in this area. He's been releasing high quality digital files and vinyl for a number of years now.

    " I am enjoying this discussion with you."

    Thanks! Me too! As a longtime music fanboy and relatively early adopter of digital music and wifi transport, I've learned a lot over the years and am happy to share what I know.


  • 7 years ago

    Elmer, you're certainly correct about using the small Sonos speakers. I was only talking about when using Sonos Connect on a fairly high-end system. The OP seems concerned about sound quality, hence is multiple tube receivers. I think you would need a separate Connect for each receiver. The Connects can be linked so that each receiver gets the same signal, without delays. Or, you could stream from an old phone by getting the app from the station you want. But, if you use multiple phones, they won't be synchronized.

  • 7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Running sound from an internet streamed source through a tube amp to quality speakers is like serving Chicken McNuggets on early 19th century Limoges porcelain. The opportunity for a grand result is there but the potential star of the show is being used sub-optimally.

    Tubes do produce a warmer sound but feeding an inferior quality source through them is silly. Most people with tube amps know better. Many won't listen to digital sound of any source other than the now more recently available high quality ones.

  • 7 years ago

    Elmer: I ran into a review yesterday discussing various streaming hardware ( https://darko.audio/?s=sonos). The reviewer claims that the Sonos Connect is a little out of date, and and he recommends three others. One is the Bluesound Node; I haven't heard of the others. It's a good read.

  • 7 years ago

    Yes, that's interesting, to a point. As mentioned in my comment 5 days ago from today, the heart of the issue for sound quality and sample size compatibility is the DAC (digital to audio converter) that processes the signal. I believe the Sonos Connect has a digital out socket (Toslink) and if so, it could be used as simply a transport and management system. Connect the Toslink to the high quality DAC of your choice and sit back and enjoy great sound.


    I say "should", it's not something I've tried. If you're interested, call Sonos support and ask if the digital out will pass the unaltered file signal to an external DAC. The Sonos ecosystem, its apps, file management, network, etc., are good and shouldn't be dismissed if it's possible to use for a higher calling. The system I use (Squeezebox) is, I think, better, but it's more like comparing the Apple world to the PC/Android world. Sonos would be the equivalent of Apple, it sets itself up into a standard configuration while Squeezebox requires tweaks and user chosen alternatives (not hard at all to use) and so has more flexible. Squeezebox allow passing a signal out to an external DAC.

  • 7 years ago

    "Tubes do produce a warmer sound but feeding an inferior quality source through them is silly. Most people with tube amps know better. Many won't listen to digital sound of any source other than the now more recently available high quality ones."


    It all depends on the quality of the components. I always cringe at these statements (vinyl sounds better, digital is better, new is better than old) because they do not take into account the quality of the equipment (or the recording engineering, mixing etc.). Vintage equipment, like new equipment, can either be great or it can suck. It's true of amps, speakers, turntables, all of it. With vintage there is the added complexity of what kind of shape it's in electronically, i.e. whether it's still performing up to whatever the original spec was.


    I'm not actually arguing one way or the other here, since I know nothing about the OP's tube receivers. Just saying, it is not so cut and dried.

  • 7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    " I always cringe at these statements (vinyl sounds better, digital is better, new is better than old) because they do not take into account the quality of the equipment (or the recording engineering, mixing etc.) "


    Independent of the system producing the audible noise a vinyl source or a high sample rate digital source contains much more of the sound than a low sample rate digital file. I have two cars with great sound systems, my wife's car much less so. A higher quality file played in her car sounds much better than a lower quality file. In my cars, the same effect but to a greater extent.

    The topic obviously depends on the system functioning properly. A broken system or one that introduces some amount of distortion/interference/outside noise to a sound source is going to do that and sound poor no matter what the sound source is. Vintage equipment in good shape performs as expected.

    Older rock musicians are often still playing amps that may be 50 years old or more, and such equipment is prized. They're all maintained in top condition and sound as new (or as desired with whatever mods have been made). Same is true with home equipment of true audiophiles who have the money to buy and maintain top drawer equipment.

  • 7 years ago

    Agreed on all points.