Felicia is a tall vase shaped bush the size of a common lilac . Gruss is a shorter bush. Do you know about HMF roses? Google it and you can see photos and look up details of all well known roses.

Pink Gruss an Aachen is a small Bush with flowers that face up. Here is the one at Huntington Garden.
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.2228
Felicia is a short climber in a warm zone like yours. Whenever you see a height range for a plant you will need to look at the largest height for your climate.
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1770&tab=1

My Gruss an Aachen looks a lot like a floribunda. It's not much more than three feet tall and almost 4 feet wide. Flower size is 3.5 to 4 inches. In my climate it has no disease problems. The color is variable, sometimes a light apricot-pink and at other times, like now in greater heat, almost white. The fragrance is light to my nose. I'm very fond of this rose, which has a charming older-rose aspect.

Hi Sheila, I looked up both of these roses on HMF, but it’s often hard for me to discern all the info because I’m not quite sure if the photos will represent how the rose will grow in my climate. And, I really appreciate the notes shared by growers on this forum; it helps so much to hear from you and others to verify info and potentially save time and headache.

I will try to focus on the upper-end of the height range when looking at info, thanks Stephanie.

Thanks for sharing the pics, especially the bush pics as it’s much easier to see the growth habit and size nature of these roses!

Felicia looks like it would engulf my small yard, but I suppose that is the issue with most of the older roses.

I was was hoping to find a floriferous back of the border rose to use in front of the neighbor’s wall.

Would all hybrid musks be out of the question? Are there any other candidate roses I should consider?

Bubble Bath has been the healthiest rose here. It is a large Hybrid Musk, but so graceful and beautiful.I just looked this rose up on HMF and found the information given inaccurate for here. The foliage is absolutely perfect here.

Felicia and Bubble Bath and many other Hybrid Musks also have long pliable canes whereas GaA is definitely a bush. Is this a shady area or do you just like the looks of these two roses? Can you grow Felicia on the wall as a climber similar to Lisa? That would be lovely. If you have enough sun, perhaps one of the "pillar" roses would suit since they tend to grow straight up without much support. Even a grandiflora might work, but I don't really grow any to suggest one. P.S. I'm no help as I would consider both as "must-haves"! : 0

I had two Felicia plants a long time ago, the one in my picture and another one which never got above 4'. So it is not necessarily over large

I debated between the 2 Hybrid Musks, Felcia and Cornelia. They both seemed so similar when I was reading about them. I choose to go with Cornelia since she is more peachy. Mine was a very small band that almost died when I overwatered it the first week with a new drip system last Nov 1st. Nine months later and it has two thin pliable canes 3 feet long, so this comeback means it likes it here! I am going to train it up a 10 foot wall, with support, in a narrow spot by a path. I am hoping to keep mine 1-2 feet wide at the bottom and then let it go wider above 6 feet. I see all the climbing roses at Huntington Garden trained this way so I know it is doable with pruning. I am super OCD out in the garden every other day with the clippers trimming things back so not a problem for me. So I know you can keep a Hybrid Musk narrow and against a wall if you need to. I have a tiny 18x55' backyard and planted roses all along the edges. I will be attempting to keep all my roses growing mostly up and not too wide so check back in a couple years :-) After much research, a lot on this forum, I purchased a mix of Hybrid Musks, Teas, Noisettes, heat tolerant Austins and Hybrid Perpetuals (we are a little hot for HPs but Huntington has Paul Neyron and Rein de Violettes in partial shade and they do well there so I picked those 2 since they have excellent fragrance). Some of the Hybrid Musks like more acidic soil than we have so using a soil acidifier could keep them happier. Almost all my Hybrid Musks have gotten some chlorosis on the lower leaves. Many of the roses that were planted by the landscapers got no soil amendments so I have been giving dilute Miracle Grow for Roses, Magnesium Sulfate (ie. Epsom salts), chelated iron and seaweed extract every 2 weeks. I am going to do a lot more soil amending and top dressing this fall once the rains start so the soil improves. Teas seem to bloom a lot in the winter here, which is why I choose them. My goal is to have a rose blooming in my yard 365 days a year!

Wow Stephanie! I applaud your observations and efforts for a rose in bloom 365 days a year! I wish I could be as earnest in my gardening. I always seem to be catching up, as I attend to work and many family responsibilities.

Could you share a pic of the shape pruning you mentioned for hybrid musks at the Huntington? It has been many years since I last visited the gardens there. Thank you!

I simply must learn how to read before replying to a post. The question was about Pink Gruss an Aachen, not Gruss an Aachen. However, except for the difference in color whatever I said should still hold true. It's just annoying that my mental faculties these days seems to wax and wane, right along with my physical ones. Arrggh!!

Your photos are great, Ingrid. All the information you gave was lovely. Pink or regular Gruss are both interesting. Never worry about this kind of "mistake". I really loved your post.

I agree with Sheila! To Ingrid and everyone else who replied, I really am so happy to be part of this gardening community that has been so open to sharing experiences both good and bad, and encouraging (and enabling) others to take a leap to try something new or old and grow a rose, grow as a gardener and grow as a person!

Sheila and Vaporvac, thank you for suggesting Bubble Bath, what a charming rose! The wall is quite tall and wide (essentially the side of the neighbor’s two-story house; it is a strange neighborhood plan where the side of their house is technically in our side yard). I would need something that can free stand so that it doesn’t rely on the neighbor’s wall to be upright. I wouldn’t mind at all a cascading effect of blooms if the rose could be tamed easily without terrible prickles.

Jjk, ohhh I am thinking of an obelisk for you that is self supported and could be put next to there house! Maybe 3 in a row since 3 is a good number :-) Huntington has all their climbers, modern and old, trained to go up trellises. Pic showing bottom of a trellis with Champney’s Pink Cluster. And showing the top of their trellises with Reve d’Or. I don’t have a Hybrid Musk pic from their garden. Here is a modern rose, Perfumed Breeze, that mimics the old ones showing bottom and top of their trellises. As you can see, all their climbers are trained to be narrow at the bottom. Champney’s Pink and perfumed breeze bloom all the way down, but Reve d’Or has large thick almost naked canes going up to the top and then all the foliage and flowers are waaaay up there and you can barely see them. Last pic of the whole effect. All trellises go up at least 10 feet.

That is something.... great pics that really show the structure of both the rose and the armature! FWIW, Bubble Bath does have prickles, but it so pretty. Cornelia is also another charmer. HMs are personal favorites. Have you considered Cl.PInkie? I would think it would do well for you. Ingrid, don't feel bad. I answered for GaA because I have it and I think they're very similar except for colour.

My thanks to all of you who have so graciously and kindly made me feel better. What a privilege to be here with you all! Below is a picture of Pink Gruss an Aachen (not looking all that pink) taken in 2015 when I had this rose, bought at the same time as my regular Gruss, but for some unknown reason it didn't do well and sadly grew backwards in the course of a year.

Wow, Stephanie thank you for posting those pics! Climbing up a support surely does give many flowers! Obelisks... I would have never thought of that; something I will research now!

Ingrid, very pretty pic of Pink Gruss!

You can also just use 4"x4" posts sunk in the ground.

Can anyone comment if one Felicia would be enough to be in the back of the border along a wall of about 20 feet, and how fast would Felicia or other HM grow?

I can’t comment on Felicia, but as soon as I saw you want 20 feet , I immediately thought of the Mel’s Heritage that Lisa grows in our SoCal area. She has posted some amazing pictures and it has a similar looking bloom to Felicia.
https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.51139.1&tab=1

Stephanie, I’ve read about Mel’s Heritage being capable of engulfing a house due to its vigorous growth habit. Are the flowers smaller than Felicia?

I think you could grow more than one Felicia on a 20 ft wall.

JJK, I don’t know the bloom size of MH but from the pictures they don’t seem too small. Here is a thread with lots of pictures.
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5334163/mel-s-heritage-2018

Would Felicia do well with full sun only in the afternoon for 4-5h? It gets shaded by a building for the rest of the time. The area faces west. The soil is amended clay. Would I have to add acid soil mix?

Should I consider the tea Duchess de Brabant if this is too much shade for Felicia?

In Southern California I wouldn't imagine Felicia would need any more than 4-5 hours sun. (Felicia, a Hybrid Musk, would tend to like more shade than DdB, a Tea.) But 4-5 hours of strong Western afternoon sun if there's nothing dappling or breaking it up might even be a bit too much for either of them if temps keep rising the way they are.

Re amendments: I would think you'd only need to add acidifying amendments if your soil is very alkaline. I'm not sure how much truth there is in the thing about R. multiflora descendents (which is what the Hybrid Musks are) not thriving in alkaline soil - opinions seem to vary.

These are just my general thoughts; someone who's actually grown these two in SoCal or similar conditions would be far better placed than me to comment. Hopefully bumping this up will bring your question to their attention. :-)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for the bump! Its not as great location as I had originally thought because it is shaded for most of the day but gets late afternoon direct sun. It really doesn’t get burning here, upper 80s at most even in July and August but the neighbor’s wall could reflect whatever heat there is. I think in the winter it would get more sun and a little less in the afternoon.

Any additional thoughts and advice would would be appreciated!

My Felicia gets very little sun, and blooms just fine. My soil is alkaline clay, just as yours is. I do throw some organic sulfur around in that bed occasionally, but I didn’t really see signs of her needing it in the earlier years, before I started doing that. I mainly wanted my hydrangea to bloom blue in that bed, since I already had so much pink going on. The hydrangea and the Hybrid Musks in that bed are planted close to the concrete foundation, so I thought some sulfur might negate the lime in the concrete, the alkaline soil, and our highly alkaline water. I don’t really know if it’s helping them, but Felicia, Bubble Bath, and Lovely Fairy are all healthy and happy. I can’t seem to provide enough sulfur to make the hydrangea blooms blue, most of the time.

I think Mel’s Heritage might have blooms about equal in size to Felicia’s, if not larger. They are certainly fuller than Felicia’s blooms are. A Mel’s Heritage bloom has many more petals than a Felicia bloom does. I don’t think Mel’s Heritage would be happy with that amount of shade, though. It seems to be a heat and sun lover. My Felicia grew quite quickly from a tiny 4” potted plant from Annie’s Annuals and Perennials. You might want two, if you want Felicia to cover your 20F wall. I really like Bubble Bath, and it cascades beautifully. That being said, it has caused me more blood loss than any other rose I can think of. Those hooked little thorns are vicious, and don’t let go easily. My Gruss an Aachen is one of my most compact roses. Everything Ingrid said holds true for mine, as well. I hope that helps some:-). Lisa

Not pink, I believe there is a climbing Kroos on aachen. Excuse the voice recognition who's issue.

Thank you Lisa for sharing your experience with Felicia and your recommendations for amendments for alkaline soil and water which we also have here. It’s also helpful to read your comparison of Felicia and MH. I wonder if MH might do well climbing up a chimney? I am thinking growing it upright might be a good way of displaying if it needs more sun and can handle more heat?

I read about the thorns on BB and decided that it would be too dangerous to have around for my boy. He has a penchant for getting into trouble!

There are are so many great roses! I’ve been thinking and considering what might be best for this area and go well together color-wise. It’s so helpful to hear from everyone! Thank you!

Vaporvac do you mean that MH is not pink while Felicia is?

No. I meant that although it is not the pink groose a Knockin, the regular groose a knocking also comes in a climbing version if you are interested in a climber. At least I believe that is the case. I probably should have looked that up before I commented! LOL!

Jerry posted some magnificent pictures of males Heritage on my post about thorny climbers.

Vaporvac, thank you for clarifying and I will check out your thread!

Oh, I love your voice recognition, Vap! It’s brought me so many laughs over the years! Lol. Lisa

I think Mel’s Heritage would be lovely on a chimney, but he does like to get very long canes. They are pretty pliable. You’re eventually going to be doing plenty of cutting him back if you want him to stay on the chimney. If you want to let one or two of his lightweight canes trail along the edge of the roof, he’d take right to it.

I don’t recall exactly where in So California you live, but if you have whatever conditions it is I have, you will be astonished at Mel’s Heritage growth. I can practically SEE him growing. Lisa