katyajini

Guirlande d'Amoure and Darlow's Enigma

katyajini
5 days ago

At first blush these two roses look so similar. Are there notable differences though? In the fragrance, the constant-blooming-ness, shade tolerance, ease of maintenance, and habit? I was going to use one or more DE to cover a tall and long trellis but learned here that it really is a large stiff shrub and wont want to be a climber. I could still grow DE in the area but wwill have to be as large shrubs. Then, looking at pictures of GdA, well wow, what a white blooming rose! Maybe I want GdA instead? GdA can grow as a flexible climber?


I am trying to achieve a wall of white, very fragrant flowers that bloom as much of the season as possible and low maintenance if possible. The area gets at least 4 hours of afternoon sun.

If you have experience growing GdA or DE or both please comment how you like them (or not).


Comparisons would help specially.


Thanks!

Comments (9)

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    They are not really similar at all. DE is a big bush, while Gd'A has long canes and could be trained as a climber. I do not know the shade tolerance of the latter as not all HMs handle shade the same. I suspect Gd'A is hardy as it's offered by HCR who usually only sells roses that will tolerate Z5 conditions. You might call Matt and ask him about its shade tolerance. In addition, I would seriously consider Mme. Alfred Carriere for the site you describe; it has everything you could want and is lower thorn to boot.

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  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    I also have a baby Gd'A, and an older MAC.

    Baby Gd'A. Looks to me a winner from HCRs.



    Vapor is right that MAC is really outstanding. It always looks good. It repeats it's bloom and has beautiful yellow Fall foliage.
    Fall 2018 MAC.

    katyajini thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska

    Hi Katya

    I grow both DE and GdA in the same part shade bed, and I can totally confirm that they are very low maintenance roses. I grow both as self supporting shrubs, and they take nothing but tip pruning of the occasional dead branches if and when I feel like it during the year. They're absolutely hardy for me in zone 5 and should be fine in zone 6. They get no more than 4 hours of sun a day and DE probably gets less as until recently he was in mostly shade under some limbed up pines.

    Here is a photo showing them at their best, with DE standing upright at the back and GdA sprawling in the foreground, along with Heavenly Pink, Wilhelm (dark red) and some other hybrid musks joining in for the fun. You can see how shaded it is by the very happy hostas:

    Here's a similar shot from a particularly nice June. GdA is sprawling to its heart's content, but it does have strong canes and makes a fountain rather than a limp rose that needs staking up to stay vertical. I'd say DE is about 8' tall and maybe 4' wide at the back and GdA is 5-6' tall and wide:

    With Wilhelm, those three are by far my best blooming hybrid musks and none of theme seem to mind the shade. They don't bloom like that all season, but I get scattered flowers most of the time and repeat flushes on GdA look more like this. Not exactly a wall of white all the time, but a nice white presence:

    I agree with Vap that GdA is the only one of these two that would conceivably be willing to be attached to a climbing structure (a big one), and it might start to bloom more on the ends than all over as it does when it fountains. I do deadhead GdA since it's at the front of the bed so it blooms more often than DE, but I'm sure he'd do as well if I braved the sea of thorns to deadhead him once in a while. Both are the epitome of low care roses for me and they happily fend for themselves.

    Madame Alfred Carriere would get massive for you as Vap said, and in zone 6 it might do the repeat blooming that it's supposed to do during the season. Mine regrows to 10-12' at least even on canes pruned to the ground after the winter, but it only blooms on old wood and even in a highly protected spot only has enough surviving cane maybe one in three years. It has never ever repeat bloomed for me, even in the years it gets a nice first bloom, so I can't vouch for its ongoing bloom that you're looking for like others can.

    One other easy care rose that can take part sun and is rock solid hardy is the Ping Lim Easy Elegance rose Snowdrift. It isn't as tall as the others so it doesn't clilmb, but it wants to be 5' tall and wide if I'd let it. I'd say of the four mentioned it's the steadiest bloomer and it's in my zone 4 shade pocket on the north side of my house. The blooms brown a bit when they get old so it benefits from deadheading, but otherwise I don't give it any care at all. It's also reasonably priced and often available through the local Lowes. The flowers are notably bigger than DE or GdA so they make more of a clean white presence.

    Here's a shot of the bush when still young in its second year:

    Hope this helps. Your idea sounds lovely.

    Cynthia

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  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    Oh, Cynthia. My favourite shots!!! Did I tell you I'm basing my "wild" hill on these plantings. I have Applejack, DE, Mrs. Anthony Waterer, Wilhelm and R. Roxburghii, R. Hugonis, Cantagibriensis and a Spirea as the taller mid-range plants and Wind Chimes, Prosperity, Marjorie Fair, Ballerina, Danae and EVS as the lower ones that I hope will spill over a stone wall. I also have a back retaining wall at the hilltop where I'll be planting LaBelleSultane and Mme Plantier. Sorry for the OT, but what other HMs do you have planted there? I have planty of space on this long hill. Are you growing your MAC as a free-standing shrub? I didn't realize that was possible and it opens up some further options for my cuttings. Thank you for chiming in on this post. Now I'm really sorry that HCR was out of Gd'A last year. : (( I really love the Lens HMs.

  • katyajini

    Thanks for all this input everyone!


    Vap: I love MAC. I had one that grew to 30 feet at least. I did not know the habit of MAC when I planted it and thought it was a large arching shrub....it grew into a giant making its way into the neighboring trees. I debated and debated and finally dug it out. I would not be able to transplant it. Well maybe I could but it would be iffy. I do have plans for a new MAC elsewhere...

    I did call HCR. They do not have GdA now but probably will have them in spring. And he thought that with 3-4 hours of sun the rose will be plenty happy. I can think of a way to incorporate DE and GdA in the spot I am thinking...You got me looking up roses by Lens...I dont have so much space left!!! Thanks so much! Oh and how I long to have all the roses you do..


    Sheila GdA sounds good to me too...I will probably try one. Thats MAC there with some shade right? Looks really nice.


    Cynthia...wow. Thank you. The spot I want to plant DE and/or GdA looks just like your photo. Under the trees is it wide open shade or do the bushes get some direct sun? here is something I am wondering: Dont the shrubs get a lot of root competition and so grow slowly or not so big? There is a big tree near where I want to plant but the bushes would not be directly under it. Your garden, what I can see of it, looks so beautiful. Natural and serene. Hope one day I can show how this spot turns out. All your suggestions are well taken. Please let me know how much sun those to bushes are getting....



  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska

    Thanks for the complements folks - it's a fun area and pretty easy maintenance as compared to the HT/flori roses in other locations.

    Katyajini, the bushes in the front like GdA get at least some direct sun daily but not the baking hot sun I get on the south side of the house. This bed faces north so there are fairly limited times for direct sun. The filtered sun seems to be sufficient for the HMusk roses to keep up some regular blooming, though the climbing varieties out of the way on the left side of the photo would be happier in particular with more sun. As for if the root competition has restricted their growth, it's like asking if prematurity stunted the growth of my teenage twins - at 5'11" for my daughter and 6'2" for my son, they're already tall and robust enough that it's not an issue. DE and GdA are some of the bigger and more regularly blooming roses among the 1000 or so I have, so I can't tell if they would be yet bigger and more regularly blooming with more sun. Like you I needed to fill a part sun area with something in addition to hydrangeas and other shade perennials, so I picked these roses to suit that location. DE never gets even the supplemental water that the front of of this bed gets in dry weather and it hasn't stunted his growth either, so when I have a survivor rose like that I put it in a survivor location to take advantage of its strengths.

    Vap, your plan sounds fabulous, and I'm honored to be among the inspirations for what I'm sure will be a lovely wild hill. I have recently planted Applejack just off to the left of this photo on the fence, and Mrs. Anthony Waterer around the other side of the house in mostly shade. They seem to be nicely hardy and are still settling in their second year. I used to have EVS at the center front of that photo till GdA totally ate it for lunch over a couple of years. I also had Danae, Prosperity, and Marjorie Fair planted to the left side of the photo but they didn't survive my zone 5 winters in this spot. They'll probably survive fine for you in zone 6, but they might not cascade as much as in yet another zone warmer. I'm impressed that La Belle Sultane and Madame Plantier would be hardy for you as I haven't even tried those in my zone. The species roses sound like a terrific addition and I'll look forward to seeing your wild pictures of that area.

    No, MAC wouldn't in my wildest dreams be something I'd recommend as a freestanding rose. Working around MAC is like trying to change the bedsheets around a teenager who refuses to get up on the weekends and takes up all the available space and then some along the way, just rolling reluctantly out of the way with a lot of prodding (ask me how I know...and why they change their OWN sheets). I have MAC tucked up by the bay window against the south side of my house and she drapes herself over a series of peony support rings next to the house so she doesn't obliterate the entire rest of that fussy-pants rose bed. She's like a toddler that finds it irresistible to poke her arms and legs into everything her neighbors are doing, and it takes a whip and chair (or peony support and bungee cords) to keep her in her own extensive horizontal space, more or less. I can't imagine her standing upright without supports, so she's 3' high and 12'+ wide draped over all creation.

    Let's see - what other HMs and OGRs do I have in those beds? The other monster next to GdA is Heavenly Pink and it's a similar hardy repeat blooming survivor that's huge and low maintenance. Wilhelm I already mentioned, and the sport Will Scarlet looks to be equally good though still young. Other surviving HMs (in addition to some that died mentioned above) include: Cornelia and Felicia, but they're a pale imitation of what they can do in warmer zones and they just put out a few flowers here and there. Nur Mahal is around the corner in mostly shade but it's upright and trouble free and blooms off and on all season. Robin Hood (if that's his ID - came as a mystery RV rose) is another HUGE freestanding shrub in even more shaded conditions at the neighbors' but he only blooms much once for me.

    Here's Nur Mahal - the flowers are larger and a little more crimson than Wilhelm, but the bush isn't as tall:

    This is only a fraction of the size Robin Hood is now in mostly shade - he's now the size of a mid-size car (not a compact) if given the space to claim:

    I've tried multiple polys in this spot and Ave Maria is the only one that liked the dry conditions and part shade and cold winters. Eutin (poly) and Enfant de France (HP) do fine but don't bloom a ton around the east side corner in mostly shade. Several HPs seem to have settled in nicely and bloom mostly in spring - Comtesse d'Oxford, Duchesse d'Orleans, Francois Arago, Madame de Stael, Paul Verdier, Rembrandt, all have been reasonably hardy for a couple of years. Sydonie is the best of the bunch and so far the only one that repeats much to speak of once or twice. Other Portland, Bourbon or moss that do OK here include: Indigo, Mme Dore, Mme Platz, Marbree, Paul Ricault, Mme Dubost, and Soupert et Notting. Stanwell Perpetual is still trying to establish itself. The two biggest so far are Marbree and Paul Ricault, but again I don't get any repeat and many of the others are pruned to the ground. The Bishop climbs well and is coming into the fourth year where I should get some nice spring bloom though no repeat.

    For climbers, Applejack is a great bet, as is Frau Eva Schubert and Awakening - the latter is really coming into its own and will probably be my best climber on that shaded fence. Laguna is also good though it would prefer more sun, and Mme Bovary, Louise Odier, and Larry Daniels (sport of Grandmother's Hat) put out blooms off and on in the season. For YEARS Ghislaine de Feligonde didn't do much of anything but it finally had a reasonable flush this year. No repeat yet though. Here's a picture of those in a good year with even GdF showing itself for a change in the small white flowers right of center (the fence doesn't usually look this good):

    Shrubs also take this location well. Bonica is pretty happy, as is Caldwell Pink. Smiling Jean isn't available that I'm aware of but it is pretty constantly blooming bright coral all season. Lady Elsie May does the same and is more readily available. Here are photos of these, first Smiling Jean, then LEM:

    LEM

    A lot of the Austins or Kordes shrubs can take part sun, and I have in these spots or the East side zone 4 pocket: Heritage, Earth Angel, Teasing Georgia, Queen of Sweden, Hannah Gordon, Elmshorn, Soul Sister, La Perla, Lone Star, The Shepherdess, Red Riding Hood, Carding Mill, Lady of Shalott, Polar Express, Bliss Parfuma, and several of the Vigorosa Kordes roses. I'd happily recommend any of the Morden series, OSO Easy, Drift or Easy Elegance roses that are the bulk of the color punch in the north or east side beds that are cold and part sun at best. The Canadians also do well in part sun and you know I'm particularly excited about Felix LeClerc who's at the far right end of this bed. Canadian Shield is also impressing the socks off me in the east bed with a ton of true red flowers (not crimson), as is Cape Diamond with pretty much nonstop pink ones. A lot of the Bucks also seem happy enough in these circumstances, including Applejack that you mentioned as well as Folksinger, Freckles, Malaguena, Pearlie Mae, Prairie Sunrise, Prairie Harvest, and Rosenstadt Zweibrucken. A fervent honorable mention goes to Elizabeth of Goshen if you can find it, since it's a surprisingly hardy and robust reblooming LAVENDER shrub that can take shade (only Poseidon and Lavender Veranda are in its class for hardy lavender rebloomers).Hope this helps visualize this. No rose is probably as happy in shade as in full sun unless you have a really hot zone, but these do surprisingly well all things considered.

    Cynthia

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  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    What a lovely report, Cynthia. Your garden is beautiful! You really help people with your information of z 5 gardening for the realist.

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  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    Gosh Cynthia, I'm saving your post so I always have it for review. Thank you for taking so much time to answer! My hill(s) sound so similar to your situation down to the difficulty getting water to all the plantings. It does get sun during the height of summer, but becomes increasingly shaded as the sun moves. The furthest end is where the species roses and once bloomers are going. It will probably be a while before it's ready for prime time, but I'll post pics when it is and be sure to do 'before', 'during' and 'afters' as I personally find those so useful for planning..

    I'm also going to start a thread on my NOID Robin Hood that I hope you'll look at if Houzz cooperates. I'm kicking myself for not getting Heavenly Pink from Peter Schneider last year, but I really wanted Ascot, Dream Land and Peggy M and didn't want to pay the extra postage for just one rose. Silly me! I should have just gotten six! ; )) I'll comment more after I study your post. Another rose I might suggest for shade is Chuckles, although it's a bright cheery colour that may not suit everyone's taste.


    P.S. Definitely consider Mme Plantier and La Belle Sultan. HMF lists the former to Z3b and LaBS to 4b. Both are sold by HCR and nurseries in MN, so I think they are good in the cold.... and Mme.P is low thorn to boot!

    Sorry for going OT, Katya, but hopefully you've been further enabled! ; D

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  • katyajini

    My goodness Cynthia! I love your post and your gardening. I did gasp when I read you have over a 1000 roses. But then I am like this little kid from the Sudan first seeing the glitz and opulence of manhattan. I dont have any friends who grow roses like that. Well now I getting them!

    I love what you have done with the fence. Climbers, shrubs tumbling and growing into one another. Looks BEAUTIFUL! I am trying to create something like that in principle as I am redoing my garden. And this fence area gets 3-4 hours of sun? Is the dark pink taller rose Laguna?

    All these roses I am hearing of for the first time....specially the ones that take some shade that you have mentioned I can think about them in my garden now! And yes, the spot where i want to plant DE and GdA is where I have hydrangeas, hostas and magnolias, so it will work! Thank you Cynthia!

    Vap: go OT as much as you want, I am loving this.





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