Don't know if this is true, but I've heard some churches want their 10% tithe and members prove their income to reap the benefits.

I know I’ve heard some of my Jewish friends talk about buying a ticket to services on high holy days, although I think that has more to do with having enough space for everyone. Don’t Mormons tithe a percentage of their income? When I was a kid they just passed the plate at the service and you put in an envelope with whatever amount you chose.

Just want to make sure I am understanding... to me, ”tithing” is pledging 10% of your income to the church. Stewardship is a big deal in our church (most, I assume, and I also assume synagogues are no different.) To be a “member in good standing“ you must fill out a pledge card. However....you can fill out any amount at all...it’s truly whatever you feel called to do. Our church does occasionally (usually on Stewardship Sunday, which is during the annual pledge collection,) talk about how parishioners can work towards actual tithing (pledging 10%.) They talk about this, not to goad people into pledging more to increase the church coffers, but to provide a pathway to this biblical ideal.

I will say, as we are progressing in our journey towards tithing the actual 10%...it is an extraordinarily joyful feeling to give back to God and the wonderful outreach work our church does. It also feels good to know that since we are able, others at our church can attend and worship and know God even if they only pledge $5 a month. No one knows what anyone pledges except the Vestry treasurer and the financial secretary. The Rector certainly doesn’t know...which I think is a wonderful thing bc it just shouldn’t matter. But the church does need money to keep the lights on, pay the clergy, and fund outreach so there are practical matters to consider.

I am wondering if the semantics are tripping the op up...they might just mean she has to sign a pledge card to be a member, regardless of amount.

Some religions, I believe LDS have tithing (10% of income), but I never heard of a synagogue having this practice. Yes, there is usually a suggested dues (this supports the Rabbi’s salary for example, building maintenance, etc.), but it is not mandatory. Please have your friend make an appointment to see the Rabbi. There is only one synagogue in the area?

The problem with just putting money in the collection plate is that the church cannot set a budget based on that. Signing a pledge card allows the church to plan. I literally cannot imagine a church requiring w2s to verify income...who on earth would “join” such a church? That‘s terrible.

I’m a lurker here, but I had to respond. I’m Jewish, and have belonged to synagogues in suburbs on Long Island and New Jersey. I’ve never heard of tithing in a synagogue. Both of the synagogues I’ve belonged to, as well as the nearby synagogues that I didn’t belong to but were familiar with, had membership fees. I’ve never heard a synagogue refer to it as tithing, but in the end, I guess it’s similar.

I've never heard of financial commitment being a requirement for membership in ANY church, but I am not well-versed in the practices of all faiths and denominations.

We belong to a large, century-and-a-half-old church with traditional roots but progressive leanings, and we are currently in the throes of our annual giving "campaign" (for lack of a better word). Nini's comment about the church needing financial pledges in order to budget is true, in my experience. Our church asks those who are inclined to indicate their planned giving for the year ahead of time, and only after prayerful consideration and acting as inwardly led. There is no prescribed amount (no adherence to a percentage), and certainly no requirement to give in order to partake in full membership and fellowship within the church body. I'm sure there are many who are unable to give so do not, or who give minimally. Likewise, there are those with very deep pockets who give substantially and who even choose to support the church with bequests after they die. Somehow it all balances out, and we continue to minister to countless needs in our community and further afield. I don't personally put stock in scripture as a literal source, but I do believe in the possibility (and have seen evidence) of the multitudes being "miraculously fed" with very little.

That said, there are fiscal practicalities that must be addressed, and I know that these can be a very big undertaking for church administrators. I don't envy them the responsibility.

We were never members anywhere. (I don't attend synagogue for years, so I'm taking 10 and more years back)

That doesn't prevent you from going to services, or anything .You won't have permanent better seats, or something..you wouldn't be on the board deciding things..but you're supposed to be just as welcomed. Otherwise I'd find it all contradicting well..just about everything.

I never yet saw a place that doesn't let you in. Can mean you'll seat on spare plastic chairs brought especially for that purpose, because no seats left-too many people.

One is indeed traditionally expected to give 10% of what he makes for charity, donations, etc. Unless he's very poor himself. His own family has to be taken care of first too.

This charity and donation and sharing doesn't have to go through a synagogue, not according to my understanding. Enough that you do that-and you yourself know it.

I can't know rules everywhere of course, just what I do know and is common sense, well at least to me.

Hard to imagine one to have to pay some exorbitant fee to get help and to give help. I'd talk to them directly. If she's in the mood for it-sometimes one's not in the mood for anything. Especially if it feels like asking for help.

But it can help. First to clear things..second..who knows..

Nini, I suspect we are of the same denomination. A tithe is 10%, the ideal, but less than 10% is no less worthy. We try to emphasize proportional giving insofar as a person should be aware of the percentage they are able to give. Nobody checks your income or questions the amount you've chosen. It's between the person and God. We encourage people to increase their pledge each year if they are able, but beyond that there's no shaming, harassing, etc. Also, if a parishioner gives to another charity, e.g., animal shelter, that is worthy of consideration in the total percentage.

Technically, to be a church member, to be able to vote at the annual meeting, you need to be a "donor of record." Ideally that means you're a pledger, but it could also mean a check for $1 in the plate every year. As Nini mentioned, church budgets are based around annual pledges. While cash dropped in the plate is most generous and appreciated, an organization can't plan a budget around that.

I'm not Jewish but I've just finished reading Leviticus and Numbers for a class. There was expected giving (tithing if you will) of produce, etc.

No it is not typical. I think it also is not really accurate......

I am Jewish, and find that one point that needs to be made is that in the strict interpretation, on Sabbath and holy days commerce and any handling of money is not done (as part of Sabbath).So , there is no donation on a weekly basis, no baskets or dishes being circulated.

The price that most would charge is substantial but every synagogue I know of has a charity committee and none would turn away anyone who cannot afford.

In addition, there is a very large movement CHABAD, which actually charges no money to attend or join anything. Yes they ask for donations, but they have some larger sponsors and their way is to be open to every one and not have $ enter into it.

One more thing - not sure where you /she are located but there are Jewish charities and social services (Jewish Family Services for one at least popular in the north east) and they would absolutely help.

When they passed the plate at church when I was a kid it was called offering, not tithing. I never knew to tithe meant to give 10 percent. Interesting. I don’t belong to any religious organization now but it seems many are struggling, except the local Catholic Church which appears to be rolling in dough.

Nini, you should be on your church's stewardship committee. I cannot get your thoughts on the pleasure of helping others know God out of my mind. ❤️

I'm also Jewish and want to add a few points about the concept of membership which seems to be confusing to some. In synagogues where I've been a member it is expected that the rabbi be able to live in the community with the congregation (and sometimes these are very affluent communities), provide for their family as the congregants do, and not have to find 'side work' to make ends meet. So they are paid a salary that is commensurate with their community. In addition, the assistant rabbi, if there is one, also receives a salary as does the cantor and the director of the Hebrew and/or religious school. There are certainly many volunteers from within the congregation but for certain positions, hiring a person with the needed experience requires a salary as in any field of work. Often the congregation has its own building which we all know requires a significant financial commitment. In synagogues I've attended there has been a full time position for maintenance/repair/custodial work (which may require hiring and overseeing a crew) and that person also receives a salary. Membership is not required to attend a service with the possible exception of the High Holy days which are the most attended services and all seats (and extras often brought in) are usually filled by members. However, unless it is against fire regulations for occupancy, there is usually the opportunity to stand in the back or in a side room where the service can still be heard - of course this depends on the specific synagogue. Often there are 'level's of membership, not with the concept of paying for extras but with the idea that a young family with children might have a tighter budget than empty nesters. So there is often a sliding scale that accounts for someone on limited income, seniors on fixed income or dealing with unforeseen expenses like a medical emergency etc. The idea is that the congregants who are able to pay the full membership do so in order to support the membership of those who can only pay a portion. So having membership enables the creation of a budget that is based on more predictable resources. Hopefully this makes things a little more clear.

In the synagogues around here with which I'm familiar (Reform and Conservative), there are suggested amounts to 'belong', based on income level. With membership comes tickets to High Holy Day services (Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur) which many Jews, even those who don't believe, attend, akin to Christians who only go to church at Christmas and Easter.

That said, no one is turned away from these services because they can't pay. But you do need a ticket to get in to the sanctuary, for security reasons. Many synagogues have a police presence or private guards at these services, because the risk of violence is so high.

ETA: the above does not apply to regular Friday evening or Saturday morning services, just the High Holy Days.

Synagogues, like most organizations which have expenses, have dues. But I've never heard of them being mandatory in order to attend regular services. And I've never heard of Jewish tithing. It IS considered wrong to handle money on the Sabbath. As a teen, I went to a friend's church service and was shocked to see the collection plate. I went home and told my parents that they had a "cover charge" for services. I also remember being at the same friend's house and seeing a membership roster of their church which listed exactly how much the different families had contributed. We had fun looking up the families of kids we knew from school. There were huge disparities, and it seemed kind of awful and shaming to publicize such personal information.

Leviticus 27:30 says a man should tithe 1/10 of his produce of crops.

FWIW, I just talked to my best bud who is the past-president of a large synagogue. He said that within his experience your neighbor’s information is absolutely (his word) incorrect. He said that at his synagogue all services are available regardless of paying dues or not. He went on to say that within his experience about 30% of the congregants pay nothing.

"No one knows what anyone pledges except the Vestry treasurer and the financial secretary."

They're people aren't they? People talk.

Read the last sentence in the last paragraph , wrong on so many levels.

The only person at my church who knows definitively what people pledge is the treasurer, a person who doesn't "talk." It is considered unethical, beyond bad form, unChristian to boot, to discuss who gives how much. One may guess all they want, but no one knows for sure.

The LDS church does expect 10%. Once a year one is called into a meeting with the bishop (head of the local church) to go over one's income and determine the 10% amount, and whether one will tithe completely, partly, or not at all. Non tithers are not permitted to make holy visits to the temple.

As well, one day a month one fasts two meals on a Sunday and the church sends the missionaries around to collect the fast offering which is supposed to be what one would have spent on food that day, but one is called on to be generous in one's fast offering and that money is set aside for the needy. The children in the family are encourage to contribute to the fast offering.

Tithing and membership dues have always made sense to me in their intents and purposes. No one expects to go to the gym for free, send their kids to school for free, etc. People who partake in organized religion shouldn't expect it to be free, too. But I do respect when there are accommodations made for those whose budgets may not allow them to give as much as the next person, which aligns with the charitable component that most religions have as part of their ethical foundation.

In the OP's example, I would advise her friend to make an appt. with the rabbi or asst. rabbi and explain her situation--that she wants to give her time, but cannot afford to give financially right now.

When I was a young mother, we belonged to a church but our finances were tight. We couldn't afford to give much, but I did volunteer as a Sunday school teacher. Each Sunday for 5 or 6 years I spent teaching and overseeing other parishioners' children while they attended the service. I loved doing so (I taught 3- and 4-year olds and have so many fond memories of their interpretations of our biblical lessons). But I also did it in service to the church, knowing we were contributing less financially. Teaching was a big time commitment, and the pastor and leadership members were grateful for my service. I think if the OP's friend wants to serve, she would be welcome.

"

•Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19

•Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27"

Looks like I'm missing out on a lot of useful guidance.

Just to clarify what I wrote above, while synagogues do have membership fees, you don’t have to be a member to attend services. Anyone can come in and worship on Friday nights and on Saturday. People typically pay membership fees when their children are growing up. The children sometimes attend pre-school, and later, Hebrew school at the synagogue. As other people have mentioned, the fees go to pay for maintenance and upkeep of the physical building, salaries for the rabbi, cantor and secretary, as well as any other staff.

Aw, Zalco, thanks!!

And Oakley, at least at our church, and any that I would attend...the financial secretary and treasurer do not “talk.” And if they did...no one would listen. My church is an area that I feel is blessedly free from malignant gossip.

I've gone to church all my life. I am totally ignorant on a church asking for a yearly "pledge" or tithing a certain amount. Yes, the 10% is based on the bible. I've been a member of two churches and it's always been you give what you can/want. The only time I've ever seen a "pledge" in a church is if say a capital building project is undertaken and you agree to give a set amount toward that project. But even that is not expected. And most certainly being a member is not based on you giving/tithing. You come forward to join the church by way of letter or baptism. There have been times our offerings have fallen off a bit and the pastor may address this from the pulpit, simply laying out what is going on and how as a christian and church member we should help support the church, etc. Honestly I can only remember this happening once in the church we attend, and it's almost funny, but some members, especially the older generation, express their support or dissatisfaction with how things are going in the church by way of what they tithe. I personally don't agree with that, but it happens. And Nini, yes, in our church the treasurer would be the one too see what is actually given and by who (at least what is given by check or in an envelope, of course many just put cash in the plate). Our church takes it very seriously that this is personal information and I cannot imagine any of those who have served in that position since we have been there giving out that info. I'm sure it happens, but it shouldn't.

To the OP, perhaps you could suggest your friend do some other charity work, rather than in her church. There are so many opportunities.

We just joined a local church and were asked to pledge, but not required. I absolutely had no problem with that, churches cost money to keep up and run, in addition to the outreach they do. As someone who is half Jewish, I find some of this a little skewed. Judaism is not a evangelical faith. As a faith, Judaism is a way of life. Casual membership is not sought or encouraged traditionally, although some synagogues are changing this long held practice so this is not a blanket statement about synagogues, just an overview of some of the tradition. Synagogues do have membership fees, but if someone could not pay, I can't imagine they would be turned away. The synagogue just said that the fee was suggested, not required. Many people believe Judaism is not something you pick up casually so initially discourage people but if you stick it out they will come around. But synagogues vary in how welcoming they are to newcomers. Some are totally cool if you want to just hang and are half Buddhist. It varies. If your friend is Jewish and wants to join a particular Jewish synagogue, she needs to commit and be persistent. If she wants to do some meaningful volunteering, that's a separate issue. There are many opportunities in every community, inside and outside of faith organizations of every ilk. I wouldn't let a fee turn me away from an otherwise inclusive community of faith, but if I wanted to volunteer and not contribute any money, I would focus on finding the best volunteer experience, within or without the religion part. Joining a church or synagogue and volunteering for an outreach activity are not necessarily one in the same.

BTW, I also attend and am associated with a nearby synagogue, very welcoming, but they too also ask actual members to contribute financially to support their work. But I am also sure they would make exceptions for poor people who wanted to join the faith community. I just get the newsletter so I don't pay anything, and if I go to an occasional event, I usually bring some kind of money donation with me, because I don't want to just take and not give something back. I live slightly above the poverty level in my community so I don't give a big donation in either the church or the synagogue, just something to contribute my share. Their weekly newsletter is full of information on activities, classes, volunteer opportunities, needs and donations and religious teachings, so lots of ways to get involved. They have supported me in my personal faith crisis too, and the rabbi said he was my rabbi when I reached out to him for help, so there is spiritual help which they give freely, and then there are membership dues, two separate issues. But still one does not have to pay if you can't afford it. But many churches and synagogues realistically want members to fully participate in all of the aspects of their faith community, eventually.

We attempted to join a church before settling on the one we're at, but were profoundly put off when we were presented with a "membership application" on which we were to designate which area of church ministry we would commit to volunteering for. Everything from car park attendant to childcare was outlined, and it was made perfectly clear to us that we were EXPECTED to choose one, then and there. Before knowing anyone and before having an opportunity to reflect privately and personally on such a decision. DH folded his application and told the minister who was explaining all of this to us that he would have to think it over some more, and then we left and never went back. I fully understand that a church depends on its volunteer staff, and in fact we both serve in several capacities at our church now, but I was astounded by the pushy demand attempted the moment we tried to become an official part of the other one. Some churches still have a lot to learn.

All of this talk about donations makes me think of televangelists, seed money and prosperity gospel. When the Reverend Creflo Dollar held a rally at Madison Square Garden some years ago, a 25 lb stucco ornament from the building across the street literally fell off and smashed one of his followers in the head. Talk about a sign from above!

This former clergyperson (liberal Protestant) considers that very likely to have been coincidence, jupidupi.

While I haven't challenged them on it, I would be interested to hear how those who believe that every word in the Bible is as true as though God wrote it view/explain some of the things that He is reported to have said and done there.

Not very pleasant to be connected to the wrong tribe, as outlined above.

That said ... many well-respected folk in our society, accepted at the time as practising Christians, were slave owners only two or three centuries before our time.

But -who are we to talk? There are some substantial reports that a number of temporary foreign workers in North America, in various kinds of work, including the sex trade, are very nearly actual slaves, and how much remedial action have we insisted be taken?

In Canada, well over a thousand indigenous women and girls have disappeared (pretty well certainly/many actually murdered) without a lot of consequence - much less so than had they been/are they being white.

ole joyful

Elmer - On the issue of not wearing clothing made of two different fibers, true Orthodox Jewish men observe that commandment. Israel has a whole industry devoted to making "kosher" clothes!

@sableincal is correct. I was going to comment on that earlier, that in fact orthodox people, wherever they are, do still follow that commandment. I can recall growing up in NYC (Brooklyn to be exact,) but I am sure anywhere there is a religious community, clothes were labeled as such. SHATNEZ is what it is called, and this shows a label as an example

Indeed - Orthodox Jews observe all 613 of the commandments in the Torah (the first five books of what Christians call the Old Testament), as interpreted down the generations in the Talmud.

Salonva, I also grew up in Brooklyn. In the men’s clothing department at A&S (a wonderful department store in downtown Brooklyn which is now defunct) there used to be a sign saying Shatnez Testing Done Here.

As far as I know, all of our local synagogues have membership fees. The website of the one I know best specifically says that all are welcome regardless of financial ability.

Obviously, those among us who are not Jewish have posted to share our own experiences and understanding, but in contemplating this further, perhaps we should not have since Jewish tradition and belief is a beautiful thing unto itself, and the question was specifically directed to those with knowledge of that faith. I am truly sorry if any of my words caused offense; I generally work very hard against that "in real life", but when relaying my own experience in writing, I can see how it could come across in a negative light.

At any rate, I say these things simply to convey that I am confident nobody intended to insult or offend in this thread. Can we all extend grace to one another?

I only replied to this to offer an explanation and give context. I am far from an authority, but I am Jewish and I think there are some key points that non Jews would not be aware of-like the example I gave that a collection plate would NEVER make the rounds on the Sabbath or any holy day.

I think that really does explain some of the membership fees charged by synagogues.

We can definitely extend grace to one another and no insult was taken and I hope no one thought anything said was offensive. I think the lack of knowledge was apparent. It just is and I don't mean it as a negative.

If Jews and our practices seem un Christian, well.... .

I can remember as a child hearing people say we should do the Christian thing and I used to wonder what it meant. It took me a long time to understand, because I had no awareness to know that meant doing the RIGHT and GOOD thing.

We weren't taught that terminology to be a recommended goal. I hope this doesn't come off as a rant; I am just trying to maybe heighten some awareness. Now I will stop I promise.

Again, yes to extending grace to one another.

Seems odd to me that the OP was about a woman wanting possibly to do volunteer work and/or join a local synagogue and was worried about possibly having to pay a large membership fee, and most of the posts are critiques of various religions' either doctrine or fundraising practices, from people outside the tradition. The solution is rather simple, if you don't like the practices of a certain religion, don't join it but otherwise I would say it is not your business. Luckily for us here in the US, church or synagogue membership is optional and there are a plethora of options out there.

My current church home tries very hard to be as inclusive as possible, which is why folks actually like this church, but it still doesn't please everyone. A hard line to walk Graywings, to help someone who is depressed. For example, my dad is depressed and it is very difficult for me to get him to participate in any type of social situation, and when he does, he is very irritable and often rude to people. The opposite of what seems like would be healing for him. But many folks are like that, and maybe your friend is as well. (Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying your friend is irritable or rude, I'm just giving an example from my experience trying to help a person who has had some significant personal losses and I'm saying maybe your friend is in a negative funk so getting out and volunteering is overwhelming for her and there could be many excuses and problems that come up, not just the fee thing). I happen to feel that volunteering is a great way to heal, helping others and practicing compassion can be uplifting, but not everyone can access that experience. Particularly folks who are introverted.

If someone is motivated, volunteering isn't that tough, but my dad for example, constantly tries to volunteer and then gets in fights with the other volunteers or administration so it doesn't really work for him. Not sure if that is your friend's situation, but this kind of thing does happen with depressed people. Again, I'm not saying it has happened or will happen, but just that it could happen if your friend is depressed. But again, I would keep trying and maybe a good fit could be found for your friend, that would help her. There is a woman at my church who visits my dad and tries to get him to go out and do things, despite the fact that he isn't really very nice to her. She's a decent person, and I imagine that is also part of her faith. There are Jews like that too. But no guarantee your friend will find either a helpful Christian or Jew. But all one can do is keep trying, the right fit may be out there. That's our job, IMHO, as humans, to keep trying to channel God's grace. With mixed results IMHO, but that doesn't make the attempt any less worth it.

Edited to add I don't know what is up with the sentence/paragraph spacing on this post but I can't figure out how to fix it so am giving up.

P.S. a little off topic, but if you want to see a great movie about the healing power of service, I recommend, "The Same Kind of Different As Me."

I only had one Jewish friend while growing up in Topeka and we never talked about dues/pledging!

But when I got to Washington Univ, there was a large Jewish population and I remember hearing my friends talk about having to pay for a "membership" at their local temple/synagogue. Most said their parents only took a membership if it was time for a Bar Mitzvah or Bas Mitzvah or a wedding. They just bought tickets for the High Holy Days. One friend said that the rabbi would call in the head of each household and tell him the amount his membership would cost. Her father was a prominent doctor and it was assumed that he would pay a very high fee. This was a huge surprise to me as I'd never head of such a thing!

I was raised a Presbyterian and became an Episcopalian in my late teens. In both denominations, there is an annual Every Member Canvas when people make their pledges (amount the intend to give to the church) over the next year. Some make it all at once at the beginning of the year, many all at once at the end, some want envelopes to put their pledge in the Collection Plate each Sun and some want an automatic charge to a credit card. It is totally voluntary but I'm sure there are many who know the amount pledged by each person. I do know that in order to be nominated to the Vestry, one must be "a proportional, pledging member of the Parish" according to the notice sent out. Don't know quite how they decide what is "proportional"! Brand of car driven? Address? Children in private schools? Club memberships? I'm sure it is all taken into account. I have no doubt those in charge of the Canvas would love to be able to do it the way "membership" is done in a Jewish house of worship!

This is going on right now in my church. According them them, the Average Pledge is $5,323 and the Median Pledge is $2,837. I was surprised it was this high - guess everyone is more generous than I thought (or than I am!)! Tithing is something that is rarely discussed so I doubt that it is done. The numbers certainly reflect this as this is a very wealthy congregation and I can't imagine that there are many members who don't have an annual income of at least $100,000 and most much more than that. My own pledge reflects that I rarely go to church anymore - just too difficult for me to do this alone. They're hoping for $1,350,000 in pledges this year.

I have a very good friend who is Mormon and she and her family always have tithed and her now adult children do the same. One cannot be in good standing and "Temple-worthy" if one does not tithe. I assume that the Bishop asks to see tax returns to be sure people are honest. My friend and her husband were always teachers and had 6 children so tithing was a sacrifice for them. But they would have done another else.

Potatoe potato Bottom line any congregation is a business that has to pay staff/rent/energy bills. Some are more "business" like than others but they all need their members to give an appropriate amount. The honesty of "applications" doesn't insult me. Truth is the bible does put 10% out there as what we owe in giving back for all the gifts God has given us. How one distributes that 10% among their parish or outside charities is an age old debate and every congregation handles that differently. How blessed we are that in America we can pick and choose and there are many many churches to choose from--for now. Sadly people use silly issues like this one as an excuse to just not bother with their faith. Churches are closing doors, there are fewer and fewer heading off on Sunday morning....FYI: We aren't better for it.

God is still God and she/he is still working in this old world of ours in beautiful ways. Don't ever lose sight of that. :)

" How blessed we are that in America we can pick and choose and there are many many churches to choose from "

It's no different here than in dozens of other democratic, industrialized countries.

" Churches are closing doors, there are fewer and fewer heading off on Sunday morning....FYI: We aren't better for it. "

I think the reason that organized religion is in decline is precisely for the opposite reason. Many of the leavers and others believe that religious institutions are not necessarily positive contributors to themselves personally nor to their communities and countries nor to the world in general. It's a compelling view, not just for the current problems many people in the world face today (including we here in the US) but equally those globally of the past many centuries.

Those who are blessed enough to give a lot subsidize keeping the buildings open for those who cannot pay as much. So yes, maybe some churches and synagogue are more "up front" about it than others, but I don't think it is snobbery or hubris to ask people to be as generous as they can. That's what participating in a community of faith entails. If you don't like that, you are free not to participate, unlike some countries where you have to belong to and support the state religion. Churches and synagogues are grappling with how to keep the doors open with the middle class that was their bastion being increasingly pressed financially. And membership is no longer a given, a thing that everyone will automatically do. Churches have to compete in the marketplace of activities and ideas. There is some data in their favor now that says millenials crave authentic experiences so if a church or volunteer organization can find key ways to provide that, they will have a leg up. Some churches and synagogues do a better job of welcoming and incorporating new members than others. Those are the ones that are going to grow and that will boil down to the leadership. My church is rebuilding after a former pastor drove people away en masse. That's why I suggest that with both a community of faith and with volunteering, you seek out an organization that fits well with your values and meets your criteria for being well-run. They do exist, but if you are super picky and expect perfect human company only, you will probably be disappointed wherever you go. But some communities are just more welcoming than others, so if you really want to join one, look around, they can be found. But it does take energy and motivation to find it, something a depressed or very stressed person may not have.

Church membership, and volunteering, is a give and take endeavor. You both give and get from the experience and sometimes it is a long process before there are any fruits in either direction. This would happen in a secular volunteer organization as well. Faith and service and love are journeys. I am reminded of another secular story about the journey of service, a movie called, "Being Flynn" about a troubled young man and his troubled dad. Great movie about what happens when you try to help a very unlovable man. Stars Robert DiNero and Julianne Moore and Paul Dano.

I would just like to add that for me personally, when you have been blessed and you have received grace, you WANT to pay if forward. And when you are so motivated, you can often find unique ways of "paying" and also receive gifts that you might not have noticed if you weren't already in a service mind set. You still often get bombarded by the yuck of the world, but sometimes there is grace that you are overlooking that you can tune into. Reminds me of when Dr. Zhivago is on a train trying to escape the Russian Revolution and his whole family's safety is on the line with some harrowing experiences on the trip, and he pauses to notice the beauty of the full moon. Love is very difficult and elusive, but it does show up if you stop to notice it. It doesn't make all the yuck go away though. We are stuck with the yuck and art and service help us make the best of it.

Beautifully put, lpink.

I have often heard it said that "church doesn't meet my needs", and I think that
can be indicative of unrealistic expectations. One doesn't have to attend church or synagogue in order to experience God or to grow in things of a spiritual nature. Some of the most profound moments of connectivity with my higher power have been found in remote canyons and dark forests; certainly the creator is neither contained nor constrained. In my experience, church is all about connecting with a community of disparate personalities who all long to be one body, in spite of different experiences, pasts, goals, politics and even theologies. It's gathering to experience that which surpasses all of our humanness and in so doing, we manage to minister to one another and to the community around us. It's a synergistic phenomenon that can move you in unimaginable ways, both inwardly and outwardly ... but you have to be willing to be a participant. Just showing up and expecting it to be "all about you" is missing the point and sadly, that's what many do.

I think church/synogogue, and life, will be a more rewarding experience if you join in with the idea of trying to help others with their needs rather than satisfying your own.

Helping others can easily be done without being an active participant in a religious organization. Many such groups have activities so described that are really quite self-serving - missionary/proselytizing programs or soup kitchens with a required religious service are obvious examples. At the same time, you don't have to look far to find people with religious activity or professed beliefs who we each may know (I know plenty) and also observe in public life whose ethics, morality, and conduct are astoundingly hypocritical and obviously contrary to any spiritual teachings they pretend to follow.

Free choice requires tolerance. True devotion to any belief system requires knowledge of and acceptance of people whose preferences are different from your own. Including those who reject or feel they have no need for any such beliefs. It's a mutual thing. I see not nearly enough of that in our country or in the world.

Elmer, everything you have said is true, and I don't see anyone stating anything to the contrary here. The flip side of your observation is that there exist many religious organizations that are making a positive difference in the lives of others and by extension, the world at large.

And by the way, even believers have times of doubt and disbelief. Nobody knows anything with absolute certainty; that's why it's called faith. We're all human. And it's ok. :)

I appreciate the calm and balanced exchange of views. Growing up in a secular and non-religious family influenced my orientation (as the opposite does for others).

As someone with no religious sentiments, I don't have periodic moments of religious belief or questioning. Doubt or certainty are not factors for me. I see it as feelings one has or doesn't have, which may or may not change for everyone over a lifetime.

Everyone have a good week and thanks for keeping cool heads.