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andrea_walheim

help solve the mystery of the disappearing arc fault breaker!

5 years ago

I live in a rural valley in central WA state and I am no stranger to being ripped off by local contractors (severe lack of competition) but I am in the process of trying to figure out what happened with the electric portion of my kitchen and garage remodel. I was hoping someone here might be able to venture a guess.


I had a water damage claim that resulted in me having to remodel my kitchen. This involved new cabinets, new configuration of counters, added floor to ceiling pantry; so some added electric receptacles and moving some pendants and ceiling cans, new under cabinet LED lighting, replacing the old ones on my old cabinets.


The highly recommended local electrician gave me a quote of 4 to 5k which included the pulling of a permit as there had been a water damage claim.


They did most of the rough in, then it was the day of the electrical inspection. As per the code change in 2015 (or thereabouts) my kitchen GFI outlets had to be replaced with arc fault breakers and outlets. They had had some trouble with an added pantry circuit, but I assumed they got it worked out. The day of the inspection, the owner of the company (Mike) called me to say that as soon as the inspector left, they were going to remove one of the newly installed arc fault breakers and replace it with a regular breaker. But they had to do it after the inspector had passed the panel, since new codes required arc fault. I asked why would they change my breaker back down to one that was not to code as when I went to sell my house I would have to reckon with this. Mike assured me that it was “perfectly safe” and that is the way it was in his house and when I was concerned and questioned him further, he said that the arc fault breakers had to be on a dedicated circuit and I had too many outlets and switches daisy chained together and if I wanted that arc fault breaker, he would have to “rewire my house” and it would cost me another couple thousand dollars.


I replied that I had Building Ordinance Coverage through Farmers Insurance and THEY would pay the extra dollars and that my house had to be to code when the remodel was finished. I was ignored and have had a hell of a time getting this contractor to return to finish the job. I hired him in July of 2019, it is now January of 2020. I have consulted with another electrician who said he had no idea what Mike was talking about, as arc fault breakers do NOT need to be on dedicated circuits.


My house was built a decade ago and has a 400 amp panel. Nothing really was that old or out of date and there is plenty of free spaces on both panels. I don't have a zillion outlets attached to each breaker on the panel like I did in my 100+ year old house in Philadelphia. So what he said was pretty much bulls$%t.


I am considering calling the building inspector to ask what is going on, especially since I might have to hire a new electrician to get this job finished. I paid the electrician $3200, but will not be paying him a dime more until he finishes and resolves the arc fault breaker issue. He has started to dun me for work he has not even completed yet.


My suspicion is that he let the drywallers close up the walls (they were open in the kitchen as well as in the garage below where my panel was so it was very easy to run new wire without having to deal with my attic) before they completed the rough in. Mike did not admit his mistake and did not want to eat all of that extra labor, so he tried to complete the work in a shoddy manner.


Anyone have any thoughts or guesses as to what might be going on here?


Suggestions on how to handle the delicate issue of reporting a possible license violation on the part of this contractor?


I am open to any and all theories. I will probably end up getting it done right with another contractor and suing Mike in small claims court for the return of a portion of my money. I would rather not go to that length for $2000 + damages, but he will turn around and try and lien my house so I need some teeth of the law to stop him in his tracks. I do need to give him an opportunity to make the situation right, however, before I try and mitigate my damages and pursue remediation for having done so, according to a good friend who is an attorney.


Sorry this was long - thanks in advance.

Comments (15)

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I have my severe doubts about both the contractor and the inspector. Yes, you should be concerned. Is Mike really an electrician, or is he just an unconscionable crook?

    An ARC FAULT itself is not a substitute for a GFCI. Many of the breaker manufacturers do now have a dual-funciton AFCI/GFCI. THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST HAVE HERE.

    Get the dolt of the electrician back to put the dual-function AFCI/GFCI breaker back (or an AFCI with GFCI receptacles).

    It is unsafe both from a fire safety and an occupant shock hazard to leave it as it is. You should be concerned about your SAFETY first, and what your insurance will do after you are shocked or burned second.

    The building inspector will likely have issues with what went on, but he likely has no authority to compel the contractor to fix things. In addition, an inspector can only inspect what he sees (or bothers to look at). This doesn't mean that an schlock contractor like yours didn't also cut other corners. You should get a professional electrician to put eyes on this disaster and make sure you are safe.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Thanks for your good points and concern - it was an electrical inspector who inspected it, not a building inspector. The breaker in question is not in use yet and due to concerns about my safety I am likely firing this guy.


    yes Mike B is a highly respected genuine licensed electrician who owns the second largest electrical company in the valley. He is quite legit. At least that is his reputation. I was not able to find one negative review. This mystery is not as simple as another inexperienced homeowner getting screwed by an unlicensed charlatan.


    I don't hire unlicensed contractors. This was an electrical inspection and he committed fraud--I think? None of us are really sure why though. I do have another electrician looking at it, ironically the electrician who was the journeyman who had Mike B as an apprentice 40 years ago. yes, it's a really small world out here.

  • 5 years ago

    I guess I'd like to know what type of circuit this was, ie, a counter top circuit, a lighting circuit, a dining room circuit, a refrigerator circuit, a microwave circuit, etc.


  • 5 years ago

    A lighting circuit. For an extra over the sink light fixture to be connected to an existing 3-way in the pantry/laundry room.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    If it doesn't serve the countertop or near the sink, then it doesn't need GFCI. Lighting circuits however DO require AFCI in this case.

    The fact that some of us survived without GFCI or AFCI doesn't mean that they aren't essential. Many fires start even in older houses because of arcing that gets very hot without enough current flow to trip a conventional breaker.

  • 5 years ago

    Thanks for your comments. The bottom line is it has to be to code because when I go to sell the house with such an extensive remodel I'm going to get nailed if I don't make it right. I am always concerned about safety. But yeah, I paid a pro handsomely, I just need him to handle his job with professionalism.


    They could not get the breaker to work with an AFCI for the inspection, and the electrical inspector just looked at the panel. Can you folks think of any reason that an AFCI would fail (or repeatedly trip) when a conventional breaker would not? I'm confused about that.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Yes, I can. Sloppy wiring. While it's possible you have an arc (not so likely) the ArcFault breaker will also detect ground faults. It doesn't do it as sensitive as the GFCI does it, but it will do it. My guess is that the grounds and neutrals touch somewhere in the circuit. That would cause an immediate trip.


  • 5 years ago

    I have another electrician coming over today to take a look. I will report back. Your comments were very helpful Ron & DavidR.

  • 5 years ago

    When retrofitting AFCI onto existing circuits, it absolutely is possible to have nuisance trips. This is particularly likely if somebody has previously played fast and loose with when identifying which neutral goes with which circuit. That is by and large not a major safety issue and can go undetected for decades, but it simply won't work correctly with AFCI or GFCI breakers.

    You then either don't put an AFCI breaker on that circuit (if this was a circuit that didn't require AFCI protection by code) or you might have to bite the bullet, remove the broken circuit, and run a new one. That's labor intensive. I don't fault any electrician who offers a "creative solution" to the home owner, but I am surprised they refuse to do the work when they are told that this is work they'll be paid for. And yes, ideally, you do want all your neutral wires sorted out correctly. Not doing so can cause other headaches down the line.

  • 5 years ago

    M brings up an interesting problem for me: a few decades ago, I rewired part of my house, using EMT (I'm from Chicago!). In some places, I ran what I would called "balanced circuits", that is two hot wires on two adjacent circuits, one neutral, and one ground. The idea was that if both hot wires are being used for a high current application, the draw on the neutral would be less. Maybe this was a bad idea, but how would this situation affect either AFCI or GFCI receptacles or breakers?

  • 5 years ago

    So this is all really interesting; what we figured out, (with the help of all of you) is the house, built 10 years ago by dude named Terri, was possibly not wired perfectly. Although I really have not had other problems with it except a propensity for breakers to trip when I run my vacuum cleaners. I buy the house, I do a renovation that was precipitated by a water leak so panel had to be inspected etc. I ask the licensed electrician to add a simple light over the laundry sink, so they were tying that in to an existing 3-way switch on a regular breaker. Not a huge deal....


    When they came in the day before inspection to test with AFCI, they were getting the nuisance trip. Journeyman was on the phone for an hour with Mike B the master electrician/owner. So they faked the inspection, and then called me and told me they were removing the breaker and replacing it with a normal one but it was perfectly safe. I think the only reason they bothered to tell me is that I was onsite and working myself and asking questions....plus I had to be there for the inspection and they wanted me to call them "as soon as the inspection was over." They were nervous about it.


    That's when I told Mike I would like to pay him to do it properly. He never did. Then he became quite difficult showing up to finish the rest of the work, so I am going to give him one more chance before I hire someone else to finish and attempt to back charge him for the work not done.


    I agree that this will most likely not burn my house down. I have been told that by several electricians at this point (including here) that is the case. But I very well might sell my house sooner rather than later and it will be tough to hide that there was a major renovation within the last few years. Plus the money I was charged! to spend 5K for some minor work and then not have the house to code when you are done seems insane to me.


    I called L & I and they were all over it. Wanted to send a field inspector out immediately. I declined to give the details and told them I would call them back. It will be difficult for Mike to do business in our valley if word gets out that he fakes electrical inspections with the county. So although I hate to use the "nuclear option" I definitely have some teeth I can use against him if he refuses to finish my job or correct the situation. The county will be pissed and the state will go after him too. He already has a license violation in 2018 for excessive ratio of apprentices to journeymen. (and yes I know this infraction is quite common in the construction world but charging the customer $150/hour for an apprentice is sleazy)


    Agree with M- he should have honestly described what was doing and and discussed options to correct it instead of lying to me and the inspector.


    I guess we will see what happens. Thanks.





  • 5 years ago

    Alas, I will have to disagree with your "my house won't burn down" arguments. Arcing is indeed a problem which is why the AFCIs once developed have been progressively expanded by the last three versions of the electrical code.

  • 5 years ago

    That's okay Ron, that makes me feel better in a weird way, because I intend to get it fixed and I can use safety as my main objection. Thanks for your input.

  • 5 years ago

    Ron and I are usually in agreement, but not here. Yes, you should have AFCIs, because the code requires them, because they improve electrical safety, and because you paid for them. But the increased risk without them is small.

    AFCIs are kind of like side curtain airbags in a car. Having them can be really advantageous in a particular kind of wreck, but not having them won't cause you to get into an accident.

    Being blunt, AFCIs are in the code because their manufacturers lobbied for them. Not to say that they're not a good idea, they definitely are, but chances are very much in your favor that you'll be just fine without them for a month or two. Don't let this keep you awake at night.

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