This would quite unethical unless you pay them for their time and are upfront about what you're doing.

I would call that unethical. You're knowingly using his time and expertise without paying for it. I'd suggest instead that you check out new spec builds in your area to get a feel for what a house of the size and standard you want is selling for. That's a rough yardstick only but it's a start. Your own costs might be lower (no builders fees) or they might be higher (fewer discounts, cost of errors, inefficiencies due to lack of expertise or reliable subbies, changes in pricing of materials and labor) but at least you'll get some idea. Or, if you have a house plan, you can do the detailed work of pricing materials with the vendors and labour directly with the subcontractors you're actually going to use.

My husband met a man recently and they hit it off. My understanding of what this guy does for a living is to put together quotes/packages for GC’s that is all inclusive for new builds. Not knowing anything about this, my take away is that he is hired by GC’s to do this job so they (the GC’s) can spend their time on the actual builds.

Does this make sense to anyone? If so, sounds like you would need to find one of these!

Once the subs get wind of that unethical practice, you won’t get a single one to work on your project. You’ll already have a hard enough time to begin with in this busy building environment.

If you don’t know enough to do this yourself, common sense says don’t do it your self.

Professional estimators exist in the commercial sector. Not residential. Residential contractors learn pricing by trial and error and coming up through the ranks. A homeowner is gonna have to sink or swim the same way. But they only get the one chance. And no practice. Which means that their build costs MORE than one done by the knowledgeable GC.

What you can do is once you have a floorplan get bids from subcontractors and put together your own budget.

Framing, roofing, foundation, clearing, windows, trim, etc. etc. [I'm not terribly knowledgeable about all the subs lol]

Also want to add that if you plan to get a construction loan, depending on where you live, might be really difficult unless you are in the industry so keep that in mind.

Best of luck.

I am a bit split on this one...

Many contractors charge for a detailed bid and if you find a contractor who charges then it is entirely ethical, at that point it is just an arm's length transaction and you are completely in your rights to do so. Contractors don't get to have it both ways, they can't get all their vested interest out of the deal and then pretend to protect that vested interest.

If they don't charge for detailed bids things get a little more nuanced. Companies will constantly do RFP's when they have no plans to switch, and there is nothing unethical about it so long as they are willing to switch in the right circumstances. If you would choose a reputable G.C. were the price competitive with your own price, then inviting a G.C. to do business is perfectly acceptable. You shouldn't lie about it and you should be reasonable in your value proposition, but creating value for consumers is what G.C.s do. Every single person who has every asked a contractor for a bid did so because there was some value above which they would have said no. It is not unreasonable that your value proposition is different from other people's, in fact, that is normal. If he offers a free bid, then you should be upfront about the likelihood of using his services, but an RFP is not unethical unless you mislead him somehow.

However, if you are not doing your own G.C. for a financial reason and no value proposition will talk you out of G.C.ing yourself then you shouldn't pretend anything else.

----

Talk to your local lumber yard, they will often know of a contractor who is retired but doesn't mind helping put bids together or doing some consulting work for a reasonable fee.

Good luck

Once the subs get wind of that unethical practice, you won’t get a single one to work on your project.

What magical land do you live in? Because I have a long history on the costing and bidding side of subcontracting and I have never met subcontractors of such high ethical standards. The relationship between subs and contractors are very often one of necessity rather than loyalty. I know half a dozen contractors out there whose sub contractor payment plan is, "I will pay you as soon as I need you again," and they don't struggle to find subs.

When we were building, people would approach my building partner and ask him about what this cost or that cost, sometimes even taking written notes.

My partner almost instantly started feeding them ridiculous information with an absolutely serious straight face while the questioner carefully wrote it down.

The real world ain't a Hollywood movie where everybody in a tee and a hardhat is brawny and dumb!

My partner almost instantly started feeding him ridiculous information with an absolutely serious straight face. Which the questioner dutifully recorded.

Because that is not unethical...

The real world ain't a Hollywood movie where everybody in a tee and a hardhat is brawny and dumb!

or apparently ethical...

---

Just to be clear, taking advantage of someone's ignorance in such a way that knowingly causes them harm is not ethical. So do you think it would be ethical if the contractors on this site banded together to lie to people who are attempting to use it for a resource because they didn't hire you?

taking advantage of someone's ignorance in such a way that knowingly causes them harm is not ethical

Indeed!

But that was not what was described.

In any case, I'm not licensed and not for hire.

***

BTW, when we would get some outlandish quote from a trade, that partner would always politely let them know we had chosen someone else. And add that the trade we had chosen was charging, say, double their quote, but we felt they were more experienced or whatever. I guess he's not going to The Good Place.

If feels a bit shady because it is.

IIf the OP hasn't already figured out why this is a bad approach, I suspect there's little we can do to help..

Top subs are not going to want to work for a person GCing their own build when there is more work than time right now. Which leaves the shady subs who you wouldn't want to hire.

Additionally if you were able to find a good sub who would work for you, do you really believe that he's going to give you the same price to do the work as he'd give a GC who continually feeds him work?

And do you really think the sub is going to give you, a complete novice, a good price or is he going to add in a large PITA price?

And if you don't have a clue about pricing, do you have a clue about the order of hiring subs, and what order work should be completed? What order the materials should be on site? Etc?

If someone can’t tell the difference between their leg being pulled by quoting triple, and the standard PIA quote of 1.5X, then they are too ignorant to be info gathering for the job. There’s no discernment. Getting good advice from any source is just as likely to be disregarded because of that same ignorance. It’s done daily on here. Fools cannot be saved from themselves if they pigheadedly insist that they are not in need of saving. So, as on any jobsite, entertainment ensues. At least they didn’t have to fetch the board stretcher, or left handed monkey wrench, or the portajohn “accidentally” turned over with them in it.

Taking advantage of someone's knowledge in such a way that knowingly spends their time without compensation is not ethical. Kristin stated it well.

As the residential design, building, and remodeling industry evolves (and that's been an admittedly slow process) the three-bid, free-bid approach is giving way to one where clients partner with a builder or remodeler early in the design phase (gasp!) and pays them for their expertise the same way they pay their architect or designer for theirs (double gasp!) This approach allows for more timely cost estimates which inform the design rather than one that surprises the owner and architect or designer after the plans are complete.

Sounds like you're pursuing the latter approach.

If you're upfront with builders and tell them you're simply using them for estimating services, you're not likely to get one with very much experience--which would bring the accuracy and completeness of their estimate into question.

Taking advantage of someone's knowledge in such a way that knowingly spends their time without compensation is not ethical.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are not exactly correct because you left out deception. Asking a question of contractors on this site "knowingly spends their time without compensation," and is ethical because there is no deception.

Should you trick people into doing things for you? No.

However, it is not unethical to ask. Moreover, you will be surprised at how helpful some people can be. I have seen professional furniture makers spend hours helping an amateur woodworker correct some mistake in a piece. I have seen accountants spend hours fixing the books of some small business for free. The contractor can say no, but only no.

How is hiding your true intension not a deception?

Is a lie acceptable because someone believed it?

You should be a politician.

It's the intent behind the ask that I would consider unethical. It's not unethical to genuinely ask for quotes from contractors and due to a variety of factors, with cost being the most major, deciding to go a different route. That happens all day every day in the construction world and is the cost of doing business. Intentionally wasting someone's time is simply not right.

DH and I have GC'd several projects over the years. Every time we have, we say that we'll never do it again because of the headache in finding GOOD subs. I 100% guarantee that you'll pay more for the subs than a GC would, but in the end, maybe you'll still save money. Probably not, though.

Are you and your wife retired? If not, I would highly rethink trying to GC building a new house. GC'ing a bathroom alone would be trying enough. What are you hoping to accomplish by doing it on your own?

Would we put together a bid for someone that was upfront about what you are trying to do....my initial answer is no. We also would not send it out to our subs to bid if you have zero intentions of using them. Bidding an entire house ACCURATELY takes a lot of time = money.

If you're going to use your owns subs anyway you should just send your plans out to them and start gathering all the bids on your own and building the budget that way.

I highly recommend you do not do any of that however and higher the professional GC to do all of this for you.

Most likely it's going to be hard to get one to come in mid-stream if you decide that it's gotten to be too much to handle, out of budget or way off schedule.

Most people I know that have been their own general contractor in building their home have learned a lot in the process . . . more than they ever wanted to learn . . . sometimes more than they should have learned.

How is hiding your true intension not a deception?

Is a lie acceptable because someone believed it?

You should be a politician.

I have always found distortion of the facts to be the paramount skill of politicians. So maybe it is you who should consider a political career.

From my first post in this thread...

If you would choose a reputable G.C. were the price competitive with your own price, then inviting a G.C. to do business is perfectly acceptable. You shouldn't lie about it and you should be reasonable in your value proposition, but creating value for consumers is what G.C.s do.

and later in the same post...

If he offers a free bid, then you should be upfront about the likelihood of using his services, but an RFP is not unethical unless you mislead him somehow.

and just a bit later in the same post...

if [...] no value proposition will talk you out of G.C.ing yourself then you shouldn't pretend anything else.

_________

I suspect that the OP will discover in the G.C. bidding process that the value of building your own home in today's market is a questionable one. If the OP is willing to accept some reasonable value proposition then I not only think getting bids from contractors is good, I think it may change the OP's mind. Contractors create value and they are good at doing it. Their fees are not a zero sum game and perceived savings rarely materialize. So the value of getting a bid exists, the question isn't whether or not the OP should do it, rather the question becomes how to do so without being underhanded. The answer to that question is to just do it without being underhanded.

Most people I know that have been their own general contractor in building their home have learned a lot in the process . . . more than they ever wanted to learn . . . sometimes more than they should have learned.

Truer words have never been spoken.

While this is not directly related to the OP's post, there have been many comments made on ethics that don't fit any real version of ethics. Ethics is largely concerned with situational responses, while honesty removes the situational portion of that.

A violation of trust, whether asked for or not, is unethical in normal situations. When there is no reasonable expectation of trust then that is a different situation and often leads a different response.

Is stepping into a retail store while you wait for your spouse to finish an appointment unethical? Isn't using the time and resources of the store and are doing so without any intention of purchasing merchandise a deception at its heart?

If I stop at a convenience store on a long drive just to pee, is that unethical? That store doesn't exist for my peeing convenience, so...

Is it unethical to ask Best Buy to price match Amazon? You are using Amazon's resources to get information to save you money from a different retailer, isn't that the exact same thing the OP is considering?

Is it unethical to ask a contractor, who you want to use but know is very expensive, to bid a job that is budget sensitive? Is it unethical to decline to do a job when the bids are too high. Or to switch to a DIY after the bids are too high.

If the reason you are interested in getting bids from a contractor is to double check the value you are adding by self building, and there is some reasonable price point at which you would choose a builder, is it unethical?

I have been in a professional procurement role for 20+ years. Bidding anything where there is no chance for actual business is unethical.

Paying for cost estimating services is what you want, and would be a fair proposition for a GC. However, expect little response from capable GCs - the good ones will be too busy to do this for something that won't garner business.

The OP says "planning to general contract ourselves." I guess we all read things a bit differently. I don't see that as an absolute.

However, my example is exactly the same thing. The only difference being the amount of time wasted. So how much of my time would you be allowed to waste without an ethical dilemma?

But let's look at another ethical question. We have a position coming open soon and will likely receive 80 to 100 applications. We have a strong internal candidate who is currently visiting, but have rules stating that we must conduct a national search... Is that ethical?

Each applicant will need to complete a cover letter and submit three letters of recommendation, each of those things takes 45 - 60 minutes. So collectively we are wasting 240 to 400 hours. Is that a sufficient amount of wasted time for an ethical violation? Wouldn't it be ironic if we hire an ethicist?

I will contend that if you NEED a GC to bid something to provide you with a budget, that you don't have the skills to BE a GC.

Again - speaking purely from a procurement professional perspective, our company won't knowingly waste someone's time to simply get their pricing.

IF the OP has a number that would make them NOT GC themselves, then it's fair to bid. It's also fair to say they are considering GC'ing themselves and seeing if it's feasible to go full service.

I would call it unethical. Plus, how much can you trust that the quotes they use would even be with the materials or product you'd like to use (example being plumbing fixtures, or light fixtures, cabinets, etc). They may chute you a number that ends up WAY too low and then you will be scrambling at the end when you realize you are a large chunk over your budget.

Before we ever started building, I put together a spreadsheet and made a list of every single bid I needed to get to build EVERY part of our home. Then, I did the leg work. Sent out our pdf files from our house plan, met with people, made phone calls. Dropped those who wouldn't take time to answer back. Spoke to others I knew in the industry who could recommend some & listened when they told me some they would personally avoid. I typically put together 2-4 quotes per item line (example roofing, plumbing, painting, electrical, exterior doors, windows, interior doors, trim work, cabinets, etc, etc, etc). If you want to be the GC on your project, then you really need to do the legwork. You'll quickly get a feel for what you're getting yourself into. There is a reason the GC's charge a fee. It isn't easy. This is our 4th time to GC our own home & I still learn new things every single time.

I came back to add a tip...if you decide to go the route we did & get your prices together, I would suggest adding on some to the budget. Specifically on the house pad /concrete work & the framing/lumber costs. Those 2 may surprise you the most. We was fine on our house pad & concrete work this time for our quote & stayed within it. The framing quote stayed within 1.5k of the budget, not bad seeing we had to switch framers from the one that gave us the bid originally. The lumber budget though....the framer will usually get a list together of what he needs & get a quote on materials for you (once you decide which lumber yard you want to use locally, you may even want to get the quote from more than 1 lumber yard...we did). Well, even with being very careful on our bids/quotes we still ended up OVER 10k over the budget for lumber/framing materials. This isn't our first rodeo and we knew something would happen somewhere so we have around a 30K cushion in our budget for overages. So, it didn't kill us BUT a 10K punch towards the front of the build was certainly a painful pill to swallow. Moral of my story, cushion the quote some once you get it. 9 times out of 10, if you quote a job tight, you will go over your quote by a long shot.

bry - you're right that we don't read things the same way. I read: "We wouldn't be using any of them [the GCs], but rather using their estimates to build our own budget as we find subcontractors ourselves. " I do take that as an absolute.

As for your hiring process, it's one thing to have a preference but remain open-minded to alternatives; it's quite another to have made the decision before the process starts, and merely be using the competition to provide a superficial appearance of transparency and fairness. The latter is unfair to the candidates and also to the organization, which may not be getting the best person if it isn't giving consideration to the whole field. It's also a bad look for the organization and its values.

"I do take that as an absolute."

Well then what is the problem? My advice to the OP was that if it is his absolute position, then it is not ethical. It is only ethical if the GC charges or the OP is willing to use them at some reasonable price.

---

I don't see any informative value in a contractor's bid if you are not going to use them. Really, I am not that sure there is that much informative value even if you do want to hire them.

I strive for fairness. Whether or not that falls within someone’s definition of ethical behavior, I don’t know. I generally can live with myself though Because I try for what’s fair. If I can’t choose what’s clearly right.

I don’t think I’m alone in buying a drink or a snack from any store that I patronize in order to use the convenience. I consider it the cost of doing business so to speak. I may browse in a store to kill time, but I will wave off any associate working, so they can spend their time more productively than talking to me. I very rarely ask for a price match. I don’t mind paying 60 cents more for the absolute joy of not going inside WalMart. I actually pay more for the monthly delivery of pet food than I do if I bought it locally. I’m paying for the service.

Things aren’t always about the dollar. People who understand that, are ones that understand that saving 5K on a build, all while you lose your mind and your hair working 90 hours in a week, on two full time jobs, isn’t working smarter. Minimal savings isn’t worth the “savings”.

Attempting a “shortcut” to do the job that you want to take on won’t actually help you take on that job. Even if you pay someone to cost out the house, you haven’t saved yourself anything. You’ve actually cost yourself quite a bit. You’ve lost the thought processes and connections that go into figuring out how Part A slots into Hole B. Part of costing out a house is learning about the build process itself.

If you think that you can manage a build without some understanding of the parts and processes that go into it? And then want to throw away the gift of greatest learning aid to getting to know all of those parts and processes? Just because it’s also one of the biggest challenges standing in the way of your success? This wont be a happy build. Short cuts DO make for long travel. They absolutely do.

bry911 - I would say best practice for hiring for a position like yours is to include in the posting that there is a preference for internal candidates. I know when I was a job seeker I found that a fair way to give me a heads up about the likelihood of getting the job. And I also think that, barring an unusual circumstance or medical condition, one should purchase an item if stopping at a convenience store to use the bathroom. But, then I also protested a high school French assignment that asked us to call a travel agent to have them find and price flights and hotel for a hypothetical trip (that we obviously never planned to take) to an assigned francophone country, as I thought that was an unethical waste of the travel agent's time. (I introduced my skeptical teacher to the early days of internet travel planning as an alternative).

I will make it my life's work to keep young contractors from giving free valuable information away to tire-kickers.

"If I stop at a convenience store on a long drive just to pee, is that unethical?"

Only if you don't use their bathroom to do so.

To summarize, you want to be your own GC but you do not want to do the work of a GC and prepare a cost estimate for your own project. Ethics aside, I don't think you are well equipped to GC your own home build based on this information.

I would say best practice for hiring for a position like yours is to include in the posting that there is a preference for internal candidates. I know when I was a job seeker I found that a fair way to give me a heads up about the likelihood of getting the job.

That is a great response and thank you for offering a reasonable and thoughtful response, however, that could be an ethical violation.

This is a perfect demonstration of the difference between ethical and honest. You have a fiduciary duty to the company you work for. If revealing a preference for internal candidates will yield a less qualified pool (which it definitely will), and there is even a chance you would hire an external candidate (which might apply), then your honesty would be an ethical violation. You were not hired by your organization to look out for the interest of applicants, you were hired to look out for the best interest of the organization that pays you. You were free to turn down the job, but you didn't.

-----

So let's turn this back around to a contractor. Suppose a contractor has a couple of partners in his business, and he is asked to do a bid for someone, which is a service he charges for. As the bid comes together he realizes that he has no intention of accepting the job. What should he do?

Obviously, the move with the most integrity is to give the money back and come clean, anything else is tantamount to stealing. However, returning money that he had no obligation to, would be a violation of his fiduciary duty to his partners.

Ethics aside, I don't think you are well equipped to GC your own home build based on this information.

I completely agree with this. This is also why I think finding out how much you will have to pay someone to do it for you is a really great option.

I wonder if you would be willing to meet with a builder and pay them for their time to walk you through the process of building and talk about budgets etc. Just to give you an idea of what is involved. A good builder, who does this task well, will likely earn you as a client.

The builder we ended up choosing put up with a year of back and forth on our part as we tried to narrow down which house to buy and tear down. He was with us through several failed attempts and helped us avoid some potential issues with certain homes and zoning. All of this was before we signed a contract. It wasn't the only reason we chose him in the end but boy did it seal the deal knowing how invested he was in this process with and for us. Now we never even considered doing it alone so there is that but it does go to show that cultivating a relationship can be worthwhile at times.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! We (more accurately I, not my wife) read about the idea in a building book, and it had felt a little funny so I wanted to make sure before trying it. After thinking about it more and hearing from you all, it definitely feels unethical and dishonest.

Thanks for your time, and thank you to those of you who had suggestions! We appreciate it.

I suspect there is a lot more erroneous and misleading advice in your DIY book. Use with caution as the say...

Don't think because you read it in a book that you'll be capable of DIY'ing your own build. There are thousands of details and unless you can be there from 7 am when subs start in the morning until after they leave at 3 or 4 pm, you should not be doing this yourself.

An advantage of using an experienced GC is that they have experience with the subs and choose ones they know will do a good job, not necessarily the lowest priced ones. The subs are motivated to do a good job to get future work. You as a one time build are going to be low priority for subs to get to in a timely way and finish on time as well. Yes a contractor charges a premium, but your time is worth something too. I agree with the comment that if you need a GC to come up with a budget, you are in over your head. The way to come up with a budget is to get the subs you will use to bid on their portion of the job and add it all up including carrying costs and unexpected extras. A sub may give a contractor a better price than they give you for the same job.

I am in the middle of a job. The subs came out twice. First for a very preliminary bid and to give feedback on making the plans better (such as you do not want the roof lines directing water like that, I would suggest this.....) And then when the final plans were done, they came back to give a final bid. The GC handled all of this and handles coordinating and scheduling everything. Yes I am paying him a markup over the cost of the subs. But I would have no idea how far out to schedule things or what order they get scheduled in. The GC also handles all permit and inspection details.

I think it is possible to be your own GC. But that it will take longer and possibly cost closer to what it would cost to have a good GC supervise than you are thinking, unless you have extensive experience already.

Keep us informed. I like watching progress and hopefully your project will go incredibly smooth and you can tell us "I told you I could do this and save money!"

Lafdr