@The Kitchen Place - The factory noting the Burnt Sugar stain is stamped on the vanity. The side of the vanity (a veneer?) looks wonderful. I just don't think hickory works in a traditional door design (stiles, rails, the way Shiloh constructs with center grain going in opposite direction), especially when it's stained BEFORE construction. Wouldn't Shiloh at least send us some stain if we remade the drawers? I wouldn't trust them to remake doors and drawers in the same style and stain. I'd go for slab, but I still want inset. If my designer won't arrange a meeting with my rep (she's put it off for almost 2 weeks now), how do you suggest I contact the company? Thanks!

My question is WHY won't your designer arrange a meeting. That's her job. She seems very good at taking money, saying NO and washing her hands of her responsibility to help remedy the situation. As a business owner, I would arrange a meeting even if I knew nothing would come of it. Not putting in any effort tells the customer you don't give a damn. With that kind of reputation a business does not survive.

@Design Girl , @The Kitchen Place, @The Kitchen Abode Ltd.- Perhaps she doesn't want a meeting because the rep will hold her responsible for selling hickory with detail. I'm writing to her to request a meeting. My husband it getting really mad about her unwillingness to help us. I've been very frustrated all along. How does this sound?

Tammy,

I still want the meeting I requested with the Shiloh rep. The vanity may be within their "tolerances", but it's not within mine. I'm pricing out new doors and drawers to replace the ones with stiles and rails. At the very least, one would think that the company would sell me new unstained doors and drawers at their cost. Perhaps they recommend slab inset doors to handle the inconsistency of the way hickory takes a stain. I've been told that alder is a much better wood. Gary and Kathleen's whole kitchen is alder and they said it doesn't dent that easily.

All - My friend the cabinet maker says he's never used hickory because it's the cheapest wood out there and difficult to stain. He will call his door and drawer front supplier tomorrow to see what they could do and recommend. He explained that the grain on the drawers would be horizontal and the grain on the door would be vertical, so it even with slab doors, it would be "busy". The cabinet I replaced had full overlay slab doors and I replaced it because I don't like the style - I'm traditional. Maybe inset slab doors would look more traditional?

@The Kitchen Place - From the Shiloh description, they're saying that slab doors will not have a consistent appearance. You said you may have ideas for me - but maybe a reorder/start-from-scratch?

Slab Style Doors

With the Metropolitan door style, you can achieve the modern or contemporary kitchen and bath of your dreams. Stained finishes in the Metropolitan door consist of a 3/4" thick substrate with a wood veneer and matching edge-banding. NOTE: Wood veneers can vary significantly in grain appearance and color from one sheet of veneer to the next. As such, variation in grain and color on the Metropolitan door may be more noticeable from one door to another than with more traditional door styles. This variation is considered typical of veneer and should be considered before purchasing this door style.

Painted finishes using the Metropolitan door will be solid MDF.

Natural finishes, Olde World finishes, and the Aging Technique are not available on the Metropolitan door style.

Flat Panel Doors

Flat panel doors feature five-piece construction and appeal to those wanting simpler lines and a more contemporary look. Shiloh Cabinetry makes each flat panel door in-house, to ensure quality and consistency. Stained finishes feature all-hardwood construction and will vary in graining and color according to the typical tendencies of the wood species.

@Ann - I'm wondering if your cabinet maker could address using a different wood on the doors and drawers? Does he think he could get the stain to match on a different species and/or would it be very noticeable? Perhaps it would be since you are stating that you want inset doors. While that would be my preference, I might entertain overlay if he feels he could make it work. While waiting, perhaps you can get the doors/drawers back and install them and see what really jumps out at you (and the Houzzers who are following along and routing for you). BTW, your husband is spot on. I've never had experience with a vendor who has not done their best to help out. Not to beat a dead horse, but I will. You had said that Tammy told you she would have steered you away fro hickory. If that's true, then why is she not taking some of the responsibility for her assistant not doing so?

Your hallway linen closet is beautiful, I, myself, love inset drawers... so beautiful! Overlay doesn’t compare. Have it installed, live with it for a little while then decide what’s best for you. I am so sorry you are going through this, I would never deal with Shiloh after reading this post... shame on them! No quality control from the looks of it!

@Design Girl - I'll get the drawers and doors back and wait for the top to be installed before making anymore decisions. I'll have my friend the cabinetmaker to inquire about another wood species for the door and drawer fronts. Then I would consider a full overlay with stiles and rails. Good idea. Did you see what I copied from the Shiloh website above? Their slab doors are overlays and vary a lot.

Could you look at my draft note to Tammy (owner of "design firm") and give me your input?

I still want the meeting I requested with the Shiloh rep. The vanity may be within their "tolerances", but it's not within mine. I'm pricing out new doors and drawers to replace the originals. At the very least, one would think that the company would sell me new unstained doors and drawers at their cost. I've been told that alder is a much better wood. Gary and Kathleen's whole kitchen is alder and they said it doesn't dent that easily.

@Ann - The note looks good. Since you've been told that if Shiloh were to replace the doors/drawers this would likely happen again, I'd be specific about what you'd like Tammy to ask for. If they replaced the doors/drawers would you be happy? Why does the side look so good and the front doesn't? I can totally see slab drawers looking just fine, but I don't think I'd like slab doors (too modern). I'm assuming at this point you would be asking for unstained product so that your cabinet maker can stain it himself for a more uniform look. If you want them to supply the stain, ask for that as well (although who knows if your cabinet maker would like the product). I also wonder when you speak with the rep directly, if they could "handpick" the wood pieces they think might give you the best/most uniform stain result. I've been known to go through boxes of marble to select the pieces I want, and put the rejects into a different box. I'd definitely push for a meeting asap and be very candid when at that meeting as to what you can/may do if they wash their hands of the situation.

@Design Girl, @The Kitchen Place - The side of my Shiloh cabinet is veneer, everything else is solid wood. I think that's why the stain is so uneven. However, I read on their website that slab doors are veneer and the grain can vary a lot between pieces, so that's no solution anyway. I'm sorry to say, I highly doubt that they would let me pick the pieces for new drawers and doors - they are in Missouri and I'm in Minnesota and my woodworker friend (and Anne) said that's how they save money...they don't "waste" any wood...they use it all. They use the heartwood, sapwood and pieces that have both. So I would be taking a risk ordering new parts. I've learned that hickory has heartwood and sapwood....sometimes in the same piece. My woodworker friend says I know more about hickory than he does, because he's never worked with it (and doesn't sound like he's interested in doing so). He's going to ask his supplier tomorrow if they could guarantee an even finish on hickory (he would stain). So my dilemma is what my specific ask would be? The Kitchen Place suggested I ask them to remake the cabinet at cost in a different wood. That sounds like the most viable solution. Or, have my friend remake it in a different wood. Thoughts ladies?

@Ann - I wasn't suggesting you pick the wood, but that because of the problem you've had, the rep ask the factory to select pieces they believe would stain more evenly. However, that's a gamble that they would even do so, or what the outcome would be. You could certainly ask Shiloh to make a new cabinet in a different wood, but would you be comfortable with the outcome and their staining process or be back at square one. I think @The Kitchen Place said there is a 30 % up charge to reduce the stile between the cabinet and drawers. More money if you go that route. Painting is another unknown. It could turn out great, or you could hate it. My thoughts are that you'd be happy with your cabinet maker constructing a new cabinet in a different wood (did you say alder) and staining for you. Only you can make the decision if you want to spend the extra money to get what you want. Sometimes things that don't turn out can be embraced, and sometimes they bother us each day. I am attaching a photo I took last week of a stained cabinet made by a company called Bertch. The wood they used was birch. Look at the stain job.

@Design Girl - Thanks, I'm feeling a little nuts right now. You're really nice to hang in there with me. The countertop measure is scheduled for tomorrow morning. I'm sure a new custom-made counter would measure the same, so I could delay installation (scheduled for next Wednesday) if I decide to have a new vanity made. In the meantime I'll get the drawers and doors back and look at them in different lighting over the weekend. All this could have been avoided if Annie would have shown me the photos she claims she did. I think that's why Tammy doesn't want to meet with the rep. He will put it back on them for selling me hickory.

@Ann - I'm happy to hang in - I feel so badly for you. It makes me so mad when vendors don't do their job properly. If I was in Minnesota, Tammy would be toast. I can be a bear when I need to be. I don't think I'd measure the countertop until you are sure. What's another day or two. I'd hate for that to go wrong if you decide to have a new vanity made. Templating needs to be 100% accurate so rethink the measuring please. It will also give Tammy the ammunition to think that she can roll over you and that you're keeping the cabinet (which you may, but don't let on). I think that in this situation the rep will probably try to pass the buck to Tammy who we know is not taking responsibility for her employee. I do feel that it is a bad job by Shiloh, but ultimately Annie is the one who dropped the ball. If this isn't resolved properly, I would let them know that you'll be all over social media (as well as your Houzz friends) with the bad reviews. What do you think of the stain job on the cabinet above?

@Design Girl - I sent a note to the countertop salesperson and Tammy canceling the countertop measure again. Thanks for the advice. My husband doesn't want to spend any more money on the vanity. I'll send another email to Tammy now and ask again for a meeting with the Shiloh rep. This time Michael will attend and he's willing to get tougher...apparently I haven't been tough enough. You're right...better to be without a second bath for awhile longer while I figure out how to proceed. Thank goodness I didn't hire her to general my project. My neighbors used her for their bath remodel, but decided to go back to their original remodeling firm for their current project. ps. Don't care for the stain on the cabinet in that photo. I googled "how to stain birch" and got: " But, like hard maple, birch wood does not absorb stain evenly and should not be stained with dark colored stains. When staining, first apply a pre-stain wood conditioner, then select stains lighter in color." Thanks and goodnight!

I spoke with the local Shiloh rep this morning. He prefaced our conversation by saying that I really needed to work with Tammy on a resolution. I said that was fine, but she hasn't offered any. He agreed to inquire about remaking the doors in all heartwood (unlikely) or remaking the doors with mixed hickory (more likely) and shipping them unstained. I asked him what some of the possible solutions were to an issue like mine and he offered: 1) discount - reduced price, 2) low cost replacement, 3) return of cabinet. He said he would contact the factory and get back to me today. I'm sure he'll reach out to Tammy to let her know we talked.

Great news Ann! I'm still trying to find a photo of a hickory inset kitchen that I did in their CHESTNUT finish which is lighter than Burnt Sugar and it turned out gorgeous!!!!!! If I find it, I'll post it here for you to see

It seems to me that there are considerable misinterpretations concerning what is an acceptable or correct stain finish. The end result of any stained wood is determined by the wood species and the staining technique. Depending upon the look one wishes to achieve determines what wood species one chooses and which staining technique one uses. There is no right or wrong, it's just ones personal preference as to the look they desire.

The issue that Ann has encountered is that her personal preference, for whatever reason, was not properly understood by the designer who ordered the cabinet. Is this Shiloh's fault, not sure, the crux of the issue here is that the designer who interacted with Ann and ordered the cabinet either lacked the knowledge concerning different wood species and staining techniques and/or was lacking in understanding Shiloh's materials and finishing specifications. The majority of major cabinet manufacturers do not deal or sell directly to the public, they only sell to the trade. It is the responsibility of the trade to know what they are ordering and to know which manufacturer they should order from, especially when the product being ordered can vary significantly depending upon each manufacturers standard procedures.

As a Shiloh dealer, I would not be happy with that finish either. Something is wrong with it. I did a Chestnut stain on Hickory a few years ago for a client and the finish is not that varied. It's a very pretty kitchen. I always thought the darker the stain on hickory, the more it hides hickory's extreme variations.

Here is a photo of the Chestnut on Hickory...several shades LIGHTER than Burnt Sugar!

whole galley kitchen

@Ann - Well it seems you have gotten more out of the Shiloh rep than Tammy. She is covering her ass ( for a few hundred dollars profit makes me wonder what shape her business is in). He is already working with you on possible resolutions. A discount (or money refunded to you for your unhappiness, a low cost replacement (where you would choose another wood and have Shiloh remake), or a return of the cabinet and a total refund where you could then have your cabinet maker remake the cabinet). This tells me that he is willing to lose his part of the transaction ($), but can not make Tammy lose hers. Think about what you really want. If I could return the cabinet and get what I wanted from my cabinet maker, that's what I'd do. This is ultimately Tammy/Annies fault and they know it. The cabinet rep is already saying a refund may be on the table(on his end). That says to me that he would be willing to do it, but Tammy must agree. I would be having that meeting with your husband and not back down from what you want. A Kitchen Place above who deals with Shiloh says she would not be happy with that finish. I'd bring that up if I had to (that you have been in communication with several vendors who sell Shiloh and that wouldn't fly with them. (No names need be mentioned). I addition, if Shiloh says he'd refund your money(but Tammy won't), I'd take his money and put it towards a new cabinet made by your guy. I am worried about the quartz at this point and if you'd get a decent job out of them given the tension. I'm routing for you. A short term delay is better if you are happy in the end.

If you're husband is worried about time? Shiloh does have Express Truck shipment for replacement cabinet (not parts) issues such as this. See if the rep will offer this up at no extra charge, if you decide to get a new cabinet. Lots of gorgeous dark brown finishes. Express Parcel leaves factory in 5 business days via a Fedex freight truck. So you'd only wait a week or two at most....depends on how long fedex freight takes.

Thank you all for your replies. To clarify, the factory rep didn’t offer me a refund as he explained that I’m not his customer. He was willing to ask about replacement doors and drawers and whether they’d be willing to provide just heartwood. He shared what other dealers have done to satisfy their customers. Unfortunately I forgot to point out that the sample I was given was stained very evenly. It should be up to Tammy to point out that the sample door is misleading. Tammy is the one who would have to agree to a refund, giving up her commission (on a $1000 vanity), agree to sell me a new one at her cost, sell me new parts at cost. We’re going to send her an email if we don’t hear from her today.

The Kitchen Place - according to this article, due to the hardness of hickory, there are tricks to an effective stain. Those cabinets are beautifully stained. Did Shiloh manufacturer them?

How to stain hickory:

https://www.hunker.com/13412920/how-to-stain-hickory

Hickory itself has many tones within the same board. You’re setting up incorrect expectations again if you expect a naturally striped piece of wood to magically become unstriped. Will not happen. It’s inside the wood. This is why lesser quality cabinet companies use tinted toners. It masks the actual grain and nature of a beauty wood like cherry or walnut. It’s like a thin paint.

But the stripeyness and wildness of hickory is a desirable FEATURE, not an obstacle to be overcome. And that’s why you got varied tones in the first place. Because hickory.

This lack of research and hen party public flagellation due to your buyers remorse is getting tiresome. Someone could ask their legal team to take a look at this, and you’d be even unhappier.

Live_wire_oak - if the salesperson has shown me the end result and the sample would have represented the end result, I would have chosen a different wood. You are welcome to stop following at any time.

There is no doubt Ann that you have a legitimate case that the sample you where shown by the designer was not representative of the overall appearance of the final product. The designer you dealt with should have made you aware of this fact. It is fully reasonable that when one is shown a sample that they would rightfully expect the final finish to be similar in colour and consistency. The designer had a duty and obligation to inform you that the sample being shown was not within this reasonable, rightful expectation.

And if you had done your job as designer and GC you would have completely avoided the issue. You aren’t throwing yourself under the bus though. And whomever you are throwing under the bus on a public forum might just take exception to that and be phoning their lawyer to deal with some of that public disparagement.

Do your job as designer and GC. It’s what you wanted to happen. You want the glory. It comes with the poop. Handle it, like you want to do business with them again. Antagonizing your subcontractors and being confrontational and accusatory, and all the piling on, isn’t how a professional anything in the field handles it. Learn from this. It’s only going to happen again. You didn’t know what you didn’t know, and this is part of paying the price to find out that you didn’t know it. All designers and GC’s absorb all kinds of losses in situations like this where they didn’t understand the specs enough on the front end. They deal with it. It’s just part of the job they do. They learn from their mistakes. It’s part of your job too, Take it off the forum. Stop the pile on mind set. Delete this post if you can.

@User - OP went to a kitchen/bath design showroom to order her cabinet. She worked with the DESIGNER in that showroom. The designer asked some questions and showed her a sample door which OP liked the looks of. As a designer myself, it is up to me to tell a customer if that door sample is not representative of the piece they will be receiving. Actually, I would NOT be using a door that was not representative of the finished product. I certainly could not show a swatch of material to a client to make draperies or reupholster a couch and have the fabric come back with lines and blotchiness in it that was not apparent in the sample and tell the customer they should have known because it as made of a "X". That is my job as the designer. The designer made money on that piece and failed to execute the job she got a commission for. As a matter of fact, the owner was on vacation when this order was placed. She told OP (after the fact) that she would have steered her away from Hickory based on OP's desires. Her assistant failed to do that. It should be a teachable moment for the assistant that cost the owner a commission. BTW, no firm names were mentioned in this post so nothing to contact a lawyer about.

Design Girl - 100% correct. Ann was acting as a client, not the designer. She had a reasonable expectation that the designer she was dealing with would inform her that the shown sample was not representative of the final product. I have this type of situation all the time, it's not always possible for me to have samples of every possible combination of stain on every possible species of wood on every possible door/drawer profile. On a recent project the client desired a wall/desk unit using walnut. I don't just assume that they are aware of the many different varieties of walnut, how they may differing according to the cutting method or how they will differ according to the staining/finishing process. It's my responsibility to relay this information to the client so they can make the right choice according to their expectations. Even if the client is another designer, I can't assume that they are fully aware of this, still need go over everything just to make certain.

The very first sentence of the diatribe reads,” I ordered a wood-stained bathroom vanity.” Not “I had designed” or “my designer suggested”. Nope. “I ordered” Sorry if you somehow confused a sales clerk with a designer.

Did you pay an actual design fee? You wrote a check for $500 for “design”? And another Check for the “vanity”? What does the notation on the contract say? You’re buying product, not design. This is no different than ordering Americk drawer pulls in pewter and then deciding they’re too black after they arrive. Or buying the latest Metallica album on vinyl from the bored hipster when you were looking for easy listening Pan flute music. You have a responsibility to yourself and to the project to do due diligence. Imagine your customer as your husband. Because he IS. Does he really care about the why’s? He just wants a wood vanity. He wanted you to handle all of that research and make that happen.

You hold in your hand a tiny computer that is attached to the eyeball every where you go. One single Google is all that it would have taken to be informed thst hickory looks like a explosion at the sawmill with all of that prominent grain. That is the absolute minimum due diligence that you as the GC and designer on the job could do. There’s a whole lot more that could have been done as well, and would have been done, had you hired out those roles. You cannot throw your hands up and claim to be just a dumb uninformed homeowner victim who was taken advantage of when you step into the active job responsibility roles that you have chosen to assume. That only applies if you hired someone else to act as your advocate and fiduciary adviser. That isn’t the clerk at the plumbing store taking your order for the gold faucet that ends up not matching the gold pulls. Not a designer. That’s on you. Again.

You can not have your cake and eat it too. You chose the pluses. Well, the minuses go with it too. Like hiring the wrong tile guy who doesn’t have a clue that proper waterproofing isn’t cement board and tile. Due diligence is required. The responsibility is yours.

Even "salespeople" have a responsibility to manage expectations. I still think her vanity is not typical of Shiloh hickory finishes.

But I will add....that doing small orders has a tendency to bite the salesperson in the behind. The smaller and simpler = SOMETHING WILL GO WRONG AND ALL WILL GO IN THE HOLE. Murphys law for sure! Designers? Am I right? hahahaha. I've had $80K kitchens go off without a single hitch. If someone comes in and wants to order a simple vanity? Takes as much time sometimes and I end up losing somehow. SMH

Wannabath I assume your comment is a joke. Houzz is a public forum where people post all kinds of nonsense and get all kinds of nonsense replies too. This doesn’t even come close to being a questionable post on that front. Someone is allowed to get a product, not like it and think it doesn’t meet their standards, then complain. End of story

AS - agree - perhaps Wannabath should purchase a beige sofa and just because it is delivered brown take it anyway. Reputable Kitchen dealers who purchase from this company have indicated that it is not the quality expected from said company. If this post bothers you, simply unfollow.

Wannabath, while you're at it, please post your full name and location as I would not want you as a client or hire you for whatever your occupation is. Your condescending tone is not very nice,,,,(both towards her as us "so called pros"). As a pro, I don't pretend to know everything....I'm always learning. But I've been in this business for 37 years, so I do know a few things. And before that, my parents were kitchen designers...basically, I have been around this industry since 1964. Also some of your post was confusing. Not sure if it was spellcheck, but some of it didn't even make sense.

@The Kitchen Place - Would you mind private messaging me? I sent an email to the owner of the design firm and just heard back. I also heard back directly from the Shiloh factory rep. Thank you.

Sorry we are closed Mondays and I got slammed yesterday. I just sent you a PM.

I'm happy to report that my new custom walnut vanity was installed today. I worked with an old friend of mine who is a woodworker. He understands design, symmetry, etc and ordered doors and drawers with the grain going in the same direction (from a company in Wisconsin). I'm very happy. The first photo is the unfinished cabinet. Thank you for all your suggestions, advice and counsel...especially @Design Girl, @The Kitchen Place & @The Kitchen Abode!

@Ann - Just gorgeous. What a difference from the other one.

Oh yes! I am so glad that this worked out so well for you after what you went through with the first one.

That is a stunning vanity. So glad you got something so beautiful

Looks great! Happy for you!

Love the replacement. Have you had the quartz installed yet? Hoping you will post a picture when it's complete.

@Sherrie - the quartz counter will be installed tomorrow morning (Wednesday) and the toilet and sink will be hooked up tomorrow too. Will post pictures. Thanks for following along! I started this project on January 6 and it would have been completed in one month had it not been for the vanity. Thanks!

Here's my new custom cabinet! I couldn't be happier. I pretty much ate the cost of the initial one, but I'm glad I replaced it. Thanks for you suggestions!

Master bathroom · More Info

Looks fabulous !!!

Yes, @wacokid, there were lots of helpful suggestions and for a couple of others, its seemed to strike a nerve. I lost about $800 on the original cabinet. The remodeler promised to refund most of my money, but came through with a partial refund. I've written them off.

They lost a lot of good will over $800. Penny wise, pound foolish does apply here, doesn't it?

EVERY piece of wood will take stain differently. That is why it's important to use wood that looks similar to one another while in it's raw state. Maple will have the most consistent color when stained because it is naturally consistent in it's natural color. Hickory is a beautiful wood, but not for those who do not like A LOT of variation in their wood. Your vanity looks like stained Hickory. The stain is not poorly applied. The look of your vanity is to be expected for a hickory piece of furniture. Your sales person should have known this and steered you towards another wood species if you were looking for a uniform stained vanity. Uniform color with hickory MIGHT be achieved if ALL the hickory wood used in the project is uniform in color and grain. A hickory veneer, or engineered Hickory might also be more consistent in color. People looking for a rustic vanity would gravitate to real hickory wood. If you were looking for a formal vanity then hickory was not the wood for you.

"I wanted a wood that wouldn’t turn red and didn’t have a distinctive grain."

If those were your words to the designer, then hickory was a completely wrong recommendation, due to its color variation and grain. Other than the splotches on the middle drawer, that looks like how I would expect a stained hickory to look like.