Wow! Melissa, THANK YOU so much!! That was a lot of labeling for you and a lot of list typing for my sake. I copied and pasted your list into my computer notes so I'll have it if Houzz loses its mind again. Like Jin, I'm going to look up every cultivar that's unfamiliar. If it's okay, I may ask, once in awhile, what your experience with a particular rose has been. You are surely a rare source of old rose info now that many of these varieties and classes are rarely grown. As you mentioned on your other thread, many of your, and Petrovic's, roses may always be rarely grown and offered in places other than the European centers where OGRs were bred to thrive. Oh, what I wouldn't give to try them all, though! If Petrovic ever opens a US branch, I will surely have to track down a huge community plot and rope in a team of other OGR lovers to help me tend the garden. Thank you for noting the provenance of each rose and providing brief descriptions.

I wish I still grew Leda. I grew her at my old garden, and she was a particularly colorful clone with generous feathered carmine-pink edges. I think that one came from Vintage? (Cursing my former self that left her behind!) Of all the roses on your list, I currently only grow Nuits de Young.

Please feel no pressure at all from me to continue, Melissa. I am amazed that in 24 hours you turned around and posted this much! If you have moments here and there to add to your Serbian Garden list, that's lovely. If you don't, that's lovely, too. It means you are engaged in other garden adventures or sitting down to write one of your richly descriptive "journal entries." It's all win-win. Carol

Jin and Carol, you're welcome. I understand why these roses are so rarely grown, but it's not because they're not good varieties; and it does seem a shame that with all the things people find to do with their lives a few more of them don't grow the rarer sorts of old roses. Carol, I needed to label those roses anyway. It's actually rather self indulgent, as it gives me a chance to take a closer look at them and refresh my memory as to names. I've never learned most of these very well, in spite of all the years they've been in the garden.

I think you need to get 'Leda' again.

I love my Nuits too, Carol and Melissa. From Claire.

You know, Sheila, that's quite an inspiring garden. I hope to do serious perennials one day.

Second tranche:

This continues from where I left off yesterday, going up the hill from the bottom, the roses in a double line.

'Delambre' Smallish Portland; mine is fairly puny, but firmly present.

'Goethe' Single moss bred by Peter Lambert. Blooms a bit like those of 'Mozart'.

'Antonia d'Ormois' I thought I'd lost this, but there it was, right place and right description, a Hybrid Gallica? pale translucent pink blooms.

'Belle Helene' Classic Gallica, large full pink blooms on a suckering plant, very healthy and vigorous. Who wouldn't love a rose like this? It appears to have expanded into the space next to it, where 'Oeillait Parfait' used to be but has disappeared. It may also be stretching across the bed into the other half of the double line, where I see stray Gallica suckers but no flowers to help identify them.

'Paeonienrose' A plant where this should be, Gallica but without blooms. Probably this variety, but need to see it in flower. N.b. HMF lists this as a Turbinata, so characteristics are likely to vary from those of the Gallicas. I swim in the seas of ignorance.

'Sophie de Marsillie' Rangy pink moss.

'Sappho' Semidouble white Alba.

'Jeanne de Montfort' This requires research. This rose looks very like my rose of yesterday's list, 'Louis Gimard', and looks quite different from some of the photos on HMF of JdM. These two very similar-looking roses came to me from different sources (though possibly both ultimately from Petrovic).

'A Longs Peduncules' Lanky suckering moss, that might benefit from pruning shorter.

"Sissinghurst Castle" My rose looks a lot like 'Hippolyte' growing further down in the bed, and not entirely convincingly identical to the flowers I see on HMF. Opinions as to differences between SC and 'Hippolyte'?

'Belle de Crecy' A substitute, from La Campanella? This is buried in the grass, so I haven't seen it, but excavation today showed me that it has suckered excitingly. My parent plant is in a terrible spot, so I've never had the luxury of seeing this variety in its glory. I'm looking forward to it.

'Celestial' A substitute, parent from way back from Peter Beales? Another variety that has never done well for me. I have hopes for this.

'Paul Ricault' Tall, broad, massive, Hybrid Bourbon type, thorny, abundant large, full, pink blooms in clusters, fruity scent.

'Suaveolens' Alba, white, moderably double. The Albas are much of a muchness for me: nice, but too similar among themselves: pink or white, double or semidouble, and you've said it all. This is particularly true of the whites. Outliers like 'Queen of Denmark' and 'Chloris' don't count, they not being really Albas, in my opinion.

'Camaieux' Small but present.

mystery rose We lost the name of this one at time of arrival, or it was misnamed. A Hybrid Bourbon/Hybrid Perpetual type, stout large growth, moderately sized cupped blooms striped pale and dark pink, once-blooming, rather light green foliage. It suddenly occurred to me today to wonder if it might not be 'Ferdinand Pichard', which I used to grow in Washington. FP was definitely not part of the Petrovic order, as I didn't greatly like it.

'Kawkasskaja' HMF lists this as a Hybrid Gallica. Mine is a rather tall, thorny plant.

'Gabrielle Noyelle' I remember Kim, I think it was, saying rather harsh things about GN. All right, she does have mildew. But, oh, the elegant,pale apricot blooms that currently smother the plant! I gave GN a big pruning last winter to bring her back into bounds, and she didn't mind, and I'm enjoying her.

That's it for today. I spent some time making notes about the plants, which are what I put down here. I spent a lot of time weeding. Making up the list is proving informative, to me, I mean.

Sheila, my Nuits de Young came from Claire, too. She's an angel! Your Nuits bed is gorgeous!

Melissa, thank you so much AGAIN! I copied your Serbian Garden additions onto my computer and pulled up another window for HMF so I could view images and read descriptions of each rose. Of all the additional roses on your list, I only grow Camaieaux and Belle de Crecy. I used to grow Celestial and tried to purchase another but was sent something else entirely. Then, I finally got one, and squirrels or some other band of rogue critters uprooted it from its 1 gallon pot, thoroughly mangled it and left it withered and dead 20 feet down the driveway. I didn't find it for two days, and by then it was almost unrecognizable. If we tried to list all the myriads of gardening challenges we face in any given year, we'd run out of paper, right?

I don't grow R alba Suavolens but do grow Semi Plena and Maiden's Blush plus--whether truly Alba or more of another--Madame Plantier, Queen of Denmark and Felicite Parmetier. I love the Albas for their health, delicate beauty, delicious scent and architectural form, but like you, I find that I am satisfied with what I have and at this point, others would feel redundant. Gallicas, on the other hand, I welcome in droves! Individual blooms vary greatly on a single plant, and each cultivar varies from the next in some delightful way. If I had time, funds, energy and space, I'd grow more Mosses.

Your mystery rose sounds like it could very well be Ferdinand Pichard. To me his blooms are both lovely and deliciously fragrant, although his bolder shades of raspberry-red and pink are more challenging to integrate with companions than, say, Honoring de Brabant's subtle variegation. He is healthy and vigorous, but as a shrub, he is dang awkward. I think I replied on.a past forum thread that I could always spot him from a distance because he rises straight up from bare canes and then shoots out in every direction, horizontally, diagonally,... He's like a teenager who hasn't grown into his knees and elbows. His leaves are unique. Jeri called them quilted, and I think that's a perfect description.

I envy you your Delambre. That Jacques Cartier kind of pink fluff really sends me! Ditto envy: Belle Helene, Antonia d'Ormois, Louis Gimard. I think Christopher planted Delambre in his cemetery garden.

Your Gabrielle sounds lovely! We all have our flaws and our gifts. Apricot-ness goes a long way toward camouflaging flaws. I still grow Abe Darby even though he is a disease magnet in my garden. I am planning to move him to a pot in the cutting garden. All I really want from him is his flowers, to gaze enraptured and breathe deeply his perfume.

I suspect that Sissinghurst Castle may very well be something that is currently grown under another name. I almost ordered that one just because it is purple and a mystery discovered on an English estate. My inner Miss Marple arose for a moment. I would love to know if you continue to see similarities between Sissinghurst and Hippolyte or other Gallicas. I can only speak to photos I've seen.

Good luck sorting out Jeanne and Louis!

I'll enjoy researching more about your other roses tomorrow: Kawkasskaja, A Longs Peduncules, Sophie de Marsillie,....

Thanks again!

Carol

Dialoguing with the roses, dialoguing with other gardeners. Thank you, too, Carol, for your response!

I've gotten so engaged with this label-cleanup-take notes that, unusually, I went out this morning and continued. Amazingly, it's still spring here, late spring, true, but you don't die if you get out in the open. The current group is in the middle of the line, after the ground, after rising gently from the low starting point, descends slightly again and then starts rising steeply. Here are the largest and most prosperous roses in the bed. I worked on them last fall, giving them a thorough pruning possibly for the first time since they were planted, and filling in around their bases with additional soil and mulch. We prepared these holes at the time we planted the roses, and they sank significantly as the old hay we amended with decomposed. (This isn't a great way to plant roses, but we did what we could.) I'm happy when I see my roses begin to sucker from the scion; it means that rose will be with me forever. I never feel secure as long as a rose is wholly dependent on the rootstock.

'Gloire des Mousseuses' Substitute, offspring of a plant from Schultheis, identical to the Petrovic GdM. I believe both are 'Mme. Louis Leveque'. This rose takes kindly to being pruned shorter. (I don't prune unless I think it will be actually helpful: pruning isn't the default.)

'Amelia' I need to do a side by side comparison of this rose and 'Celsiana', which it's suspected to be. A lovely rose in any case, and certainly similar to the Damask.

'Anais Segalas' Rich bright pink-red with paler reverses, like a Gallica with something added: somewhat heavier canes and taller than most Gallicas, but more like them than like any other class. Very satisfying rose! I'm not sure any of the photos on HMF adequately conveys its color.

'Blanche de Belgique' Another white Alba. Fine stout upstanding rose, which I can't distinguish from 'Suaveolens', but I'm no botanist.

'CHEwdelight' A modern Hulthemia hybrid I got as an experiment. I use this name because it's the one I know: I don't know what the commercial name is in the U.S.; it has several different ones. There's a second Hulthemia hybrid further up the line. More to say on these varieties later, but the blotch does continue to appeal.

'Duchesse d'Abrantes' HMF photos show what look like a number of different roses that purport to be this variety, as I pointed out in the comments section. Mine is purple--pinkish-lavender aging to purple--on a strong-caned and fairly upright plant that might do well pruned lower, as it tends to bloom at the ends of the canes. A good rose, different from others in my garden; I have no idea whether the name is correct. I had no idea there were so many mosses around.

'Rene d'Anjou' Apologies for omitting the accents: they confuse the computer. Pink moss on arching canes.

What you said about 'Hippolyte' and "Sissinghurst Castle": there's plenty of confusion about the correct names of old roses, and new mistakes get made all the time as nurseries propagate and gardeners share. I'm surprised my notes on these roses are in such good order. Simple observation can help, though, noting possible resemblances and looking closely.

With all my roses, if I can keep the garden from being overwhelmed as I get older, I have enough roses to keep me looking and thinking for as long as I live. It's like my sister, who, finding the public library closed, ordered herself a hundred classic books. She'll be reading them for the rest of her life.

Me, too, Melissa! I love the conversations on this forum, connecting with you and other OGR lovers across the miles. As soon as I get a skinny minute, I'm going to sit down and peruse your most recent additions. I took my computer to bed last night so I could read and write back to you...and then I fell asleep sitting up with my laptop literally perched on my lap! More later.... Carol

Hi, Carol. I have some more to add to the list, but need to go out running errands this morning. Not many names: I've been pulling and shearing too much to make fast progress on the bed. But it has been lovely spending all this time with these roses, and with good weather, too. For your part I imagine you're busy.

Here's another small tranche, completed a couple of days ago. These roses begin where the bed begins to rise steeply uphill and the soil, from wet, becomes drier and also stonier. The mixture of varieties also changes, and there are a good many failed plants, from some combination of unsuitability to conditions and poor conditions themelves.

'Yolande Aragon' Great overstuffed upright HP, big pink fragrant blooms. Handsome enough, but for my taste somewhat short on grace, delicacy, and restraint.

'Rose de Meaux White' A true Centifolia, open and scraggly; and more lightly built than others of this class in keeping with the miniature blooms, but a tolerably healthy plant. The flowering this year was very poor, but I think it has been good at other times.

'Crimson Globe' This is finally starting to grow. I was wondering if I hadn't gotten another 'Nuits de Young', but the bloom looks a touch lighter and redder, and the plant taller. Still I'm going to keep an eye on it. Healthy.

'Marbree' Most definitely a Hybrid Damask, with the heavy canes and lush growth. Shortish (don't know if that has to do with the conditions of cultivation) and welcomely suckering out a bit. Big bright pink flowers, mottled, with a bright golden eye, something like 'Officinalis' in general effect, only with the spotting. A happy plant.

'Souv. de Mme. Corval' First of the failures. HP A single stick with two blooms of bright light red, full.

'Empereur de Maroc' This is what I get when I buy a rose I've read is difficult: an eight inch tall cane with two leaves on it. I need to confine myself to tough plants.

'Gloire Lyonnaise' I pruned this back hard in the winter and it has made a slow recovery. A very handsome, strong growing Tea-leaning HP with beautiful white flowers. The beetles absolutely adore this one. Who knows, perhaps it will flower this fall when insect pressure is less.

'Lewison Gower' Another failure. With the sole exception of 'Louise Odier', I've never had a Bourbon do decently in the garden.

'Anna de Diesbach' This looks identical to my 'Yoland d'Aragon'. Can anyone tell me of differences between the two varieties? Is there a definite, distinct AdD in commerce? HMF tells a tale of confusion.

'Bright as a Button' Another modern shrub with the Hulthemia blotch, similar to its fellow a bit below. About this and its neighbor down the line. They're modern shrubs, with glossy small foliage, scentless. My plants look battered: I suspect I should have pruned them regularly to stimulate new growth, and didn't, The plants are tough, though. I have a question about how well the flowers assort with the foliage and habit: the assembly is an artificial one, but then all hybrids are that. I did rather like the effect, like a limbed up shrub, of the second plant. And the flowers are pretty as well as interesting.

The beetles have been absolutely terrible this year, and there's a lot of disease: the unheard of amounts of rust (nothing like as bad in this bed as in the bottom bed in the older part of the garden, possibly on account of better air circulation), but also on fruit trees, a mystery tree growing along the drainage canal, and my etruscan honeysuckle has been hit hard and may die. I thought nothing could kill honeysuckle. I think the way to attack the beetles would be through predators that dig and eat the grubs, but don't know what animals do so. Badgers? hedgehogs? birds? toads? I don't see hedgehogs, and you'd think the garden would be a paradise for them. Crab spiders, I was sorry to see, don't attack beetles, only bees--that was irritating.

In spite of all these negatives we've had a beautiful spring, that began early and is still going on now: we're on the very verge of summer, but not there yet. We've gotten enough rain, and are in a happy period at the moment when ticks, mosquitos, and chiggers aren't yet very active. I count my blessings.

Correction: 'Yolande d'Aragon'.

Melissa,

I am thoroughly enjoying your posts as you travel through your rose beds, labeling and taking notes! I have been looking up your roses which are unfamiliar and revisiting others that I haven’t grown or seen in a long while.

I think it was Campanula that was less than pleased with Mme. Louis Leveque and went on a tirade once. Ha, ha. Except for MLL’s tendency to ball in wet weather, I find her to be a lovely thing! Voluptuous blossoms in glistening silvery pink. Delicious fragrance in the bloom and moss. It’s helpful to know she takes kindly to pruning, although I have always tended to grow my taller Mosses upwards and outwards along fences and trellises where I sort of draped the blooms on top of supported canes. A bit lazy and casual on my part, but I also liked the effect. I don’t know what I’m going to do with my trailing, potted Mosses in my current garden though.

Amelia or Celsiana: either way, a beautiful pink, semi double rose. I love them both! Speaking of Alba mix-ups, I grow Blush Hip from Pickering, but I’ve heard there’s some confusion about what’s actually in commerce. Maybe I grow Blush Damask? I’m in the process of handing the mystery off to John (the John in Portland) since he’s taking a number of my old roses. I really do have to downsize and focus. I am growing a ridiculous number of roses on my microscopic lot, and they are beginning to suffer the consequences. I need to focus on a hand picked selection. This is probably one of the reasons I’m having such fun reading your extensive, ongoing list of roses! Vicarious indulgence. :-)

Anais Segalas is one of the many Gallicas I have never grown and will probably never grow simply because there are too many Gallicas, but I’ll bet yours is gorgeous! HMF said something about it being classed as a Centifolia in one catalog, so maybe the Centifolia ancestry is bulking it up and pushing the height?

The Hulthemia hybrids are fascinating. I somehow became interested in them back in the 1990s, probably because of photos in Peter Beales’ enormous rose encyclopedia. I kept telling friends involved in small, local nurseries that they should breed roses using Hulthemias to try to capture those delightful central eyes. Isn’t that funny? I had a huge crush on central splotches back then: Lavatera ‘Barnsley', Hibiscus ‘Blue Bird’,’ Philadelphus ‘Belle Etoile,’, etc. I’m so glad Warner latched onto the idea of breeding Hulthemias and ran with it!

I had to research Duchesse d’Abrantes on HMF. I was totally unfamiliar with that Moss. It does look like there are at least three different roses going under that name in the photos section, so I hope that others will see your comment. It looks like some ID untangling is in order. From your description, I’d say your rose matches my favorite photos on HMF.

Rene d’Anjou: a really charming, fragrant rose! Is yours remontant? I envy your Moss collection! If I were to collect a pile of roses other than Gallicas, it would be Mosses. They are a very, very close second. In fact, I am currently growing a few which have displaced some of the Gallicas I had on my wish list. I’ve got large pots of Capitaine John Ingram and Nuits de Young, plants gifted to me from wonderful Claire, plus Salet and Nightmoss in the garden. I am trying to root two mosses I discovered in the neighborhood plus I intend to ask another neighbor for cuttings of yet a third. You can see from my list of Mosses and Gallicas that I have to restrain myself so that I, too, do not make the mistake of planting a whole lotta purple and burgundy without lighter colors to break up the sea of darkness. Goth gardening.

You and your sister are kindred spirits, I think. Roses and books. With much difficulty, I have been downsizing our family's library over the last 2-3 years. Our house was overflowing with 2500 books…or maybe closer to 3000? My 9.5-year-old daughter has as many as my husband or I do! I’ve knocked the books down to around 1000. I would love to have 1000 roses in my garden, too, but books are easier to care for except for dusting. I’ve been eyeing a Redecker book brush on the internet since I have a birthday coming up. My b-day wish list also includes another stack of assorted injection molded nursery pots and lots of soil.

Thank you for the lovely diversion and pleasurable conversation! I’ve copied and saved all your rose list installments, and I am working my way down to the next one.

Until I read on to 'Yolande' and company,

Carol

I've enjoyed reading your comments, Carol. A scatter of responses:

I believe David Austin, too, had objections to 'Mme. Louis Leveque' (and perhaps to a good many of the Mosses), but personally, and in spite of frequently objecting to overstuffed roses, I love it. It helps that it's healthy in my conditions.

'Amelia' and 'Celsiana'--I am coming round to the idea that they're the same rose, but still need to do a side by side comparison--have that simplicity and that clear pink coloration that I admire in the Damasks.

I don't know whether the Centifolias had descendents. Seems I read somewhere that all their sexual parts got converted to petals and it's difficult or impossible to breed from them; that's why most of the Centifolia and the Centifolia Mosses are sports. I could see a rose being placed in a certain class on the basis of characteristics, as opposed to ancestry, but 'Anais Segalas' doesn't strike me as particularly like a Centifolia. I do think it has a dose of something besides Gallica in its genes, but don't know what. It's a nice rose, in any case.

I never noticed that 'Rene d'Anjou' is remontant, but it could be that it is, or potentially is, but the weather was too dry or I wasn't there to see it.

Last tranche:

'Baronne Prevost' I'm not sure this is correct. It hasn't started to flower yet, delayed by its winter pruning.

'White Cecile Brunner' Puny. Like the Bourbons the 'Cecile Brunner' tribe generally don't do well for me, but in their case, I mind. I think it not impossible that I could get them to grow, but so far I haven't succeeded.

"Vallunga" Local found rose. The parent plant is a Tea-leaning HP, pink-flowered, strong, and cheerful. It had a young elm growing through it but was still blooming. My plant, a year and a half in the ground, is taking its time getting started.

'John Hopper' Rigidly upright HP, with beetles, blackspot, and pink blooms, but one day it may grow decently. It gets a reprieve.

'Henry Nevard' Two short canes with four stupendous purple red, fat blooms. I'm hopeful this may take off one day, so continue to wait.

'Souv. de McKinley' This is listed variously as a Hybrid Tea, Hybrid Perpetual, or Portland (see HMF); I'd say it looks more like a Portland than anything else. Modest upright growth, substantial bristly-thorny canes, not heavily armed, suckering a bit; flowers soft pink, double, fragrant. Nice.

Rosa foetida or variety. Probably from Nino Sanremo, possibly La Campanella. It could be the species, 'Persian Yellow', or 'Austrian Copper', as all three grow in the garden. I haven't seen this bloom yet. These roses are healthy for me and the first two flower well, but they're really slow to start from suckers.

'Sydonie' Nice vase-shaped Damask-y HP, thorny, delicate clear pink double blooms.

'Mlle. Cecile Brunner' As I said above. This is a little more thriving than the white sport.

'Oeillait Flamand' ('Oeillait Parfait'?) I bought this one under the name 'Oeillait Flamand'. This one is complicated. Actually, too complicated to try to explain, and I need to look up Graham Thomas, who's downstairs. My rose, whatever its name, is a clear bright pink fading to soft pink, double, shapely; canes heavy but lax and suckering, as though it can't figure out whether it's a Damask or a Gallica. An earlier tranche included 'Oeillait Parfait', which I wasn't sure had survived, and which only adds to the confusion. It's a nice plant in any case.

'Conditorum' Taller and leggier than some Gallicas, and not showing so far a great propensity to sucker (grafted, like all the Petrovic roses).

'Duc de Guiche' This Gallica is still getting well under way, so I don't have anything to say about it.

'Zoe' The Moss of a thousand names. This looks like the rose I've gotten as 'James Mitchell', and The Vintage Gardens Book of Roses says 'Berangere' is also the same rose. A tall, lanky, suckering moss with tidy smallish pink blooms, flat and double with a neat button eye: a good rose.

Rosa hemisphaerica. Similar in growth and foliage to R. foetida. It grows reasonably well and sets buds, but this is the first year it opened them. I'd like to see it get off on its own roots, but see no signs of it so far.

'Rote Krimrose' I just took a look at HMF and they list it as a Gallica, which my rose is not. It's a fair-sized shrub with smooth sturdy green canes with sparse sharp thorns, which flowers in clusters on side shoots, the flowers starting pink with a white base to the petals and fading almost to white. The flowers show all colors in a cluster at once, which is noticeable. I don't know about scent. Leaves matte and large. It looks to me like a modern shrub, though I have no idea what it breeding might be. There are no pictures of it on HMF. It's possible there's a mixup somewhere.

'Orpheline de Juillet' A handsome mound of foliage and grape-purple blooms, suckering outward. Very satisfactory rose, but it needs room.

HERE ENDS THE FIRST SERBIAN BED.

About the books: my sis is careful about how much stuff she gets and keeps. Normally she relies on the library, but the library was closed. The classics are such a great idea: reading forever! I have a lot of books, too, but try to hang on only to ones I know or think it's likely I'll reread, and pass on the others. After all, if they sit on my shelves, no one else can read them. I've been looking lately into online libraries, too.

There you are, Melissa! I almost lost our thread while I was away posting photos of Gallicas and other OGRs. I am up and down with my daughter at night, so I pop into the forum at all sorts of odd hours Portland time...like now. I'm waiting for her to settle in again and wanted to start on your last rose list before (hopefully) going back to sleep. I've pulled up an HMF window and am ready to read and research! More later.... Carol

Well, I HAVE enjoyed this chat, Melissa! I often set aside your posts for just the right time when I can settle in and savor every description, like anticipating a good book until the perfect moment and then diving into a stretch of full on literary and horticultural indulgence. With 100 classic books in her house, your sister must be overflowing with anticipation and near decadent literary indulgence, too! I do wholeheartedly applaud your and your sister's desire to keep only books which are as yet unread or ones destined to be reread time and time again. Our family is trying to do the same around here, but we read so darned much that it's hard to say we'll NEVER reread a book! Ha, ha.

Your roses:

I am glad Madame Louis Leveque thrives in your conditions. When she is good, she is very, very good!

Do you know whether you have 2 Amelias or 2 Celsianas? At least, they're both winners!

The insight into the sex lives of Centifolias that you shared is fascinating! Sex parts converted to petals. Who knew? I guess attempting to breed Centifolias is a bit like attempting to breed mules. :-)

Last tranche:

I hope the Baronne blooms for you very soon. Does size matter? Only when we're talking about Hybrid Perpetual blooms, and I don't think any rose tops the Baronne. So much pink fluff in which to bury your nose and so much fragrance to reward your senses!

I'm sorry the Brunners are such a struggle in Italy. That's a change from the PNW, right? Here you have to commit intentional harm to prevent them from thriving. There are a number of old Brunner plants in my neighborhood. Some have been around so long that they have grown to proportions resembling roses in Jackie's CA garden. Maybe a more vigorous Brunner like Climbing Cecille Brunner would take off for you?

I tried to research "Vallunga" and can't find anything on HMF or elsewhere. I'd love to hear more about this locally found rose as it matures.

Souv. de McKinley: Don't you love it when the same rose is listed as everything from a Hybrid Tea to a Portland? I am making that face my daughter does when grown-ups intentionally try to shine her on. I looked up SdM on HMF, and I 100% agree that it looks like a Portland. In fact, it looks a whole lot like Marchesa Boccella/Jacqes Cartier. How on earth did Godard cross Magna Charta with Captain Christy and end up with THIS rose?

Sydonie is another nice rose in that vein. I remember running through EVERYTHING that resembled MB/JC when I was researching my pink mystery, which I am guessing must be Climbing Jacques Cartier...if it's even possible to get this rose in the US. I also grow a MB/JC shrub. The longer I garden, the more I grow to adore JC.

I'd love to read a separate post on your whole Oeillait Flamand/Oeillait Parfait mystery. Why are our research books always so far away when we are writing about our roses? My Graham Thomas is somewhere downstairs, too, and I have misplaced my Vintage catalog which is worrisome. Diamonds and gold mean nothing to me (nothing especially good, that is), but my Vintage Gardens catalog is priceless!

I wish Conditorum were available here in the US.

I will have to do some more research on Zoe. As soon as you say "rose of many names," my curiosity becomes a hydra.

Rote Krimrose: I can't seem to find anything about this rose except the minimal info on HMF. Did yours come from Petrovic?

Orpheline de Juillet: I hope I can keep mine happy in a HUGE nursery pot. It is one I am growing both for pleasure and for propagation and pass along, and my beds are full!

Please don't hesitate to list more roses if you venture out on another labeling project in another area of your garden and you have time to share on the forum. This has been great fun, Melissa!

Carol

BUMP.

Carol, I missed your last comments entirely, until I hunted this thread back up so that I could copy my comments for my own records. I guess I was taken up with those Gallicas, too. Responding to your observations:

About 'Amelia'/'Celsiana', I would guess 'Celsiana'. The rose looks very much a Damask to me, and not at all an Alba.

I don't swear by what I wrote about Centifolia breeding: it's just something I recall from my heterogenous reading that seems sensible. For solid information, ask a hybridizer.

I have yet to see a bloom this year on 'Baronne Prevost': the horrid beetles have eaten every one. I seem to recall that I had doubts about the identity of this rose anyway, but can't speculate when I can't even see a flower. I don't have this variety from a different source, so am unable to make comparisons. My rose came from Petrovic; it would be worthwhile to seek it from another nursery.

The Brunners aren't a problem in Italy that I know of, just in my garden, which has its own obstinate character. I haven't abandoned hope of growing them one day, but they're like Teas in that they'd require even more drastic amendment that we usually perform. I'm considering ordering a truckload of sand. I do have a couple of good plants of 'Spray Cecile Brunner'.

"Vallunga" is the study name I myself gave the rose, so there won't be any information under that name. There aren't that many old roses locally, but you see neglected HPs growing here and there. This one is going to have to put on some size before I can get an idea of what it might be. I'm not that knowledgeable about Hybrid Perpetuals, though I know a bit more now than when I made the first order from Petrovic.

About 'Souv. de McKinley', confusion about many of the old roses is endless. All I can speak of with any reliability is the rose I have growing in my garden.

Yeah, I've enjoyed 'Sydonie' this year. I like that whole class, and she had a long flowering this spring.

Perhaps one day I'll gird up my loins and write a post on the 0eillaits, if only to straighten them out in my own mind. Though it's easier when they're in bloom, not finished for the year like now.

My 'Rote Krimrose' came from Petrovic. It remains mysterious, in a minor way.

Ha: good luck keeping 'Orpheline de Juillet' in a pot! It does want to get big, AND it's thorny. A good rose, though, and since it suckers willingly it should be easy to get bits to give away.