rosecanadian

Tell Me a Story #2

rosecanadian
last month

A fish lazed in the pool of water wondering what that pointy bit of (STAINLESS) STEEL was doing in her pond. She remembered stories her MATCHLESS MOTHER had told her of a JULIA CHILD who loved to cook fish. As she hurriedly swam away into the swiftly flowing CURRENT (AFFAIR) she saw....


Many thanks to Dove_Song who started the first Tell Me a Story.

Comments (155)

  • berrypie7
    last month
    last modified: last month

    BACCARA attempted to slip away to warn Mrs Oakley, when the PRINCE yelled " You, GYPSY BOY, draw my BUBBLE BATH and fetch a glass of SUMMER WINE, no make that a Bourbon, preferably Madame Issaac Periere. "

    BACCARA'S mother was starting to fret " What's taking him so long, and I am matchless to leave a candle burning. I will just think HAPPY THOUGHTS and sing a LULLABY as in previous MANY HAPPY RETURNS. "

    St Swithun had the hood up on the vintage Caprice, billowing SMOKEY CLOUDS OF GLORY. " Vick is going to say I told you so. I made PROMISES to get the car back before dark . "

    BROTHER CADFAEL remembered RALPH'S CREEPER was in the trunk. " MRS OAKLEY, you're the IRISH HOPE to do a PROPER JOB of car repair. " Georgia usually had her mechanic's tool box handy but had loaned her tools to her best friend CANDACE to work on her MONSTER truck.

    St PATRICK , caring for Georgia's WELL BEING spoke up " Brothers, it looks GRIMM but we can make it on foot to the SAVOY HOTEL before nightfall if we hurry. "

    The CLOWN built a CAMPFIRE, ROSE to deCLAIRE with CHUCKLES " Let's camp here, IT"S SHOWTIME !

    BROTHER CADFAEL searched the faces, lastly Mrs Oakley's. " It's getting DARK LADY, we should start walking my friends. Do watch out for octopus arms of vicious thorns along the path through MUNSTEAD WOOD. "

    The ALCHEMIST Verden was pleased

    rosecanadian thanked berrypie7
    Featured Answer
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    10 days ago

    Teresa - that's great to know about lime and tiny leaved weeds! I have an area in mind. :) Save lime for French roses or dark green/large leaved....I thought you said I should use the glacial rock dust for that?? Okay, I read a bit further...use rock dust with my Miracle-Gro and lime for before rain...just a little bit.


    So I should use Glacial Rock Dust every time with the Miracle-Gro? And like a tsp with every 4L of water/fertilizer??


    I dilute by 1/4 and fertilize every other day (thereabouts) with Miracle Gro except when I fertilize once/week with Alaskan 5-1-1- fish fert. For matte leaves should I dilute even more?


    My Firefighter is not doing well. I'm probably going to shovel prune it this fall. That's okay...there are other roses. This is it's 3rd time (I think) for me trying it.


    I can't afford the tones here. No place sells it...and the price is ridiculous for shipping/purchasing it on Amazon.ca.


    Oh!!! What a lovely little garden!!! Adorable with its lovely colors!!


    We're getting a few hot days here...30C/86F....it's going to be soooo hot!! I'll probably fertilize with Alaskan Fish Fert. ... weakly though.


    My daughter came over with her friend and was so proud of my roses...showing them to her.

    Thanks so much, my learned friend!

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  • strawchicago
    10 days ago
    last modified: 10 days ago

    Carol: your roses are grafted on multiflora (cluster-root) and they do best with SOLUBLE fertilizer. Using Espoma "Tone" works best for roses grafted-on-Dr.Huey .. Dr.Huey-root-stock produces plenty of acid to digest the granular fertilizer like "Tone".

    Agree with your approach of TINY amount of rock-dust when you use MG-Soluble-fertilizer. Calcium & trace elements in rock dust is best applied in TINY amounts, rather a big amount like the major nutrients (nitrogen & potassium). Nitrogen leaches out most when it rains, and potassium is needed twice more than calcium.

    Rock dust and lime are BOTH ALKALINE, but rock dust has trace elements, versus lime has only calcium, plus some magnesium if you use dolomitic lime. I would save lime to kill the tiny-leaves weeds, rock-dust is far better for roses during acidic rain.

    From your group of "matte" leaves, I grew Jacques Cartier, Charles Darwin, Scepter d'Isle. I also consider Firefighter to be semi-matte leaves. The matte leaves DO NOT LIKE THE SALT in fertilizer, esp. high-nitrogen. Nitrogen fertilizer is highest in salt. Animal manures like chicken manure is also high in salt (gave my Firefighter brown burns).

    Since MG-soluble has NPK 20-20-20, with 20 in chemical nitrogen, I would dilute more for matte leaves, but UP sulfate of potash (lower in salt) for matte leaves. Sulfate of potash induces bloom in any stingy roses.

    One summer I used high-nitrogen top soil plus Holly-Tone NPK 4-3-4. I used too much Holly-Tone so it was doubled the amount at NPK 8-6-8, and the matte-leaves grew so tall, and refused to bloom. The glossy leaves were hurt less by the overdose of fertilizer.

    Matte leaves are sensitive to salt in fertilizer thus need LESS nitrogen (highest in salt). Firefighter, a matte leave rose, actually became glossier with sulfate of potash plus more blooms. Sulfate of potash (lower in salt) is safe for both matte and glossy leaves .. both become shinier, plus more blooms. Below is my Firefighter with glossier leaves & more blooms with sulfate of potash plus lime & trace elements in horse manure. Firefighter has a higher demand for calcium & trace elements (as in rock dust) since it's a fast grower. Calcium is needed for growth in roots & leaves & stems & flowers. The ratio in rose-tissue analysis (done by U. of CA at Davis) is Slightly more nitrogen than potassium, 1/2 calcium, but only 1/10 magnesium and 1/10 phosphorus.


    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    10 days ago

    I don't use 20-20-20 MG...I use 24-8-16 now that you said I should use a lower P. So now that's even MORE nitrogen. I canceled my sulfate of potash order on amazon.ca because you said that wasn't a good brand. So...which sulfate of potash do you recommend? :)


    Holy cow!! Your Firefighter puts my puny one to shame!!! Wow!! Wow!!! Wow!!!


    What do you think of fertilizing the matte ones half as often as the glossy ones instead of lowering the amount of fertilizer? Or maybe just fertilize them with 5-1-1 fish and glacial rock dust plus some sort of potash? Totally skip Miracle-Gro for matte leaves?? Or should I just lower the amount of fertilizer for them?


    https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5965056/pictures-from-carol-in-alberta#n=26


    I feel like I'm sooo close to having the perfect system!! It's so exciting!!! Thanks soooo much!!!

  • strawchicago
    10 days ago
    last modified: 10 days ago

    Carol: I used Potassium Sulfate 0-0-53 Plus 18% Sulfur 100% Water Soluble Greenway Biotech Brand 5 pounds for $30 on Amazon. It's more expensive than the brand that you canceled but it has 18% sulfur which helps to dissolve in acidic rain. Even with 18% sulfur it's hard to dissolve in my alkaline tap water at pH 9, so I sprinkle around the stingy roses or the matte-leaves for acidic rain to break down. Just a tiny amount (less than 1 TBS) is enough for a large bush. In the past I ordered the brand that you canceled (Alpha chemicals) and that didn't help roses to bloom (not enough sulfur).

    I would skip the MG Soluble at 24-8-16, that's too high in nitrogen and the matte leaves tend to grow tall and stingy in blooms. Fish fertilizer at NPK 5-1-1 is low-salt plus rock-dust plus sulfate of potash is best for matte leaves or the ones that are stingy in blooms.

    Too much nitrogen result in tall roses with zero blooms.

    A Michigan State University horticultural professor stated "it's the ABSENCE of nitrogen that encourages blooms, rather than adding phosphorus". I once threw blood meal at NPK 12-0-0 with 12 as nitrogen & zero potassium on marigolds and they shot up to 3 feet tall with zero blooms. I once tested high-phosphorus fertilizer in a pot for petunia, and roots do get thicker, but leaves got brown burns. I also tested high phosphorus fertilizer for roses in pots and that didn't increase blooms. Since your roses are grafted on aggressive multiflora roots, high phosphorus won't produce more blooms, but high potassium plus 1/2 calcium will. Below is "stingy" Frederic Mistral breaking out in cluster blooms with 40 blooms for spring flush after I doused it with sulfate of potash plus 1/2 gypsum (has both calcium and sulfur). It's a light-green leaves so I used acidic gypsum instead of alkaline lime. But you have more acidic rain than me, so rock dust is fine.


    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    9 days ago

    Ooooh!!! That's a beautiful picture of FM!!!! So many flowers and petals!!


    So now I'm confused again. I can't find any Miracle-Gro with a better formulation. I do have this in my shed https://www.amazon.ca/Phytoplankton-seaweed-Fertilizer-Enhancer-Vancouver/dp/B073DKK4XS/ref=sr_1_15?dchild=1&keywords=miracle+grow&qid=1596009167&sr=8-15 but it was HORRIBLE for my roses. Blech. :)


    Are you saying:


    1. Use my Miracle Gro 24-8-16 with glacial rock dust for my glossy roses with occasional fish fertilizer with weak dosages often.


    2. Use Fish fertilizer, glacial rock dust plus potassium. Nothing "chemical" like Miracle Gro?? I tried all natural last year and it was (as you know LOL) horrible. Earlier I tried to find the Nature's Cure Plant food on Amazon.ca (canadian version) and they didn't have it. I found the potassium you mentioned...it's


    Subtotal$ 39.98Shipping$ 32.98TotalUSD $ 72.96 for 4lbs or same shipping for 2 lbs.


    Did I get it right? I'm tired now...it's 2:30 a.m....so I'm going to go to bed and reread everything you wrote.


    3. What do I do for semi-glossy??


    Thanks!


  • strawchicago
    9 days ago
    last modified: 9 days ago

    Carol: Whether or not to use high nitrogen MG-Soluble NPK 24-8-16 is time and weather dependent, but keep in mind that matte leaves can't take the salt as well as glossy leaves.

    Tahir Khan gave me his secret of fertilizing roses in pots in Khalid's Facebook Fragrant Rose lovers: "Keep it alkaline at 7.5 pH. End of winter: top with 60% soil and 40% cow manure. Early spring: prune roses. Two weeks later: feed with SOLUBLE NPK 20-20-20 for fast growth (one teas in 2 liters of water). Add trace elements. A month after 1st flush, give high potassium fertilizer. After rainy season, add trace elements." Tahir Khan's approach to his 200+ roses in pots."

    *** My note: AFTER WINTER when roses are pruned short, give MG-Soluble NPK 24-8-16 TO ALL ROSES so all can reach the height needed for flowering. Also rock dust or lime to neutralize acidic spring rain. Basalt rock dust contains calcium, magnesium, iron, manganese, silicon, cobalt, zinc, boron, and aluminum.

    When they reach the height needed for flowering, continue with MG-Soluble for glossy leaves, but STOP MG-Soluble for matte leaves or stingy roses in dry weather. When you get into rainy season late fall when nitrogen leaches out most, give MG-SOLUBLE to all roses. Rain flushes out the excess salt & nitrogen in MG-soluble.

    Firefighter is wimpy for people but vigorous for me since my soil is high in iron, and red rose needs more iron than others. I also used horse manure (low in phosphorus) and richer in trace elements. My Firefighter was stingy in potting soil, fertilized with MG-Soluble for roses NPK 18-24-16 (high phosphorus DOES NOT WORK). So I planted in my high-magnesium & high-iron sticky clay and it bloomed constantly. However, leaves got brown burns when I used high-salt chicken manure.

    Let's consider the basic nutrients that roses need:

    LOW ratios in rose-tissue analysis: 3 Nitrogen, 2 Potassium, and 0.2 Phosphorus, plus 1 Calcium and 0.25 magnesium. For ppm it would be 50 iron, 30 manganese, 30 boron, 15 zinc, and 5 copper.

    For HIGH ratios in rose-tissue: 5 nitrogen, 0.3 phosphorus, 3 potassium and 1.5 calcium. http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7465.html

    So in dry weather with less rain and when your roses ALREADY reach the height needed, fish fertilizer at NPK 5-1-1 still needs more potassium and trace elements. Nitrogen is needed to grow more leaves & stems, and leach out the most during rain.

    Potassium and calcium is needed to form flowers, also leach out during rain.

    Phosphorus is for root-growth and branching, leach out LEAST during rain since phosphorus mobility is 1, it barely moves and accumulates in pots.

    CONCLUSION: After pruning, give NPK 24-8-16 to ALL ROSES since nitrogen is needed to grow stem & leaves. If you get more than 1 day of rain per week, give NPK 24-8-16 to ALL ROSES since nitrogen leaches out during rain. But high nitrogen at 24 doesn't work for stingy roses, or for matte leaves WHEN THEY ALREADY REACH the height you want.

    My experience with high nitrogen at 24 for matte leaves in dry weather: they produce lesser quality blooms, or stingy, or get brown fertilizer burns (sun-burned). Firefighter got brown-burns on leaves just from the salt in chicken manure at NPK 5-3-2.

    How's the price in Canada of below product on Amazon? NPK is 0-0-22 with sulfur, magnesium, and potassium at 22. Sold for $20 at 5 lb. Sulfur & magnesium are co-factors for potassium. Sticky magnesium prevents potassium from being leached out so you'll use less than needed.

    https://www.amazon.com/Down-Earth-Langbeinite-Potassium-Fertilizer/dp/B00VJN96LG/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=potassium%2Bsulfate&qid=1596030674&sr=8-8&th=1

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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    9 days ago

    Hey Teresa,

    I didn't realize that Khan's advice is for potted roses! Okay. :)

    I bought the potassium. It was $80 all in. So now, I'm done buying fertilizer. LOL


    You have been so patient with me, and I realize that it would have been so easy to stop. Thank you!!! Now, I have to reread everything and add a bit more to my notes.

    Time to go outside now though. :)

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    9 days ago

    Teresa - since you (as I do) love the glossy leaved rose bushes...you may want to check out Palatine Roses' new rose list from France with Adams as the hybridizer. Most, if not all are dark green, glossy leaved. Here's the link. I'm going to get 7 if I can. :) :)


    https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5948333/our-wish-comes-true-more-european-roses-from-nirp-through-palatine#n=54

  • strawchicago
    9 days ago

    Carol: Thank you, for that link. Amour de Molene is so pretty. I'm adding more orange roses to my garden.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    9 days ago

    Yes, that's one that I'd like to get too! These are the ones I would love to get.


    Amour de Molene

    Anne Vanderlove - strong raspberry!!!

    Broceliande

    Crazy Fashion

    La Fontaine aux Perles

    Parfum Royal - med to strong raspberry!!

    Sweet Delight.


    We have to wake up early on the day that Palatine opens their website for orders and usually we crash the website and have to be determined to keep going. LOL Let me know which ones you really like. I'm off to make supper now.

  • strawchicago
    8 days ago
    last modified: 8 days ago

    Carol: I looked up your roses above in HMF and there's no listing for planting zone. So I'll wait until the winter hardiness reports come through with folks who grow it.

    I used Plant Tone NPK 5-3-3 recently and flies were attacking me .. they went crazy over the smell. I used on a few wimpy roses and as the result they got these green-flying bugs on them. The problem with granular-organics is the stinky smell which attract ANY FLIES (midge, thrips, sawfly, etc.). Previous years I had to cover with top-soil so organics don't attract flies. Plant-tone includes feather meal, pasteurized poultry manure, cocoa meal, bone meal, alfalfa meal, greensand, humates, sulfate of potash and sulfate of potash magnesia. I like Holly-tone (with sulfur) better since it dissolves faster with sulfur, rather than gunking up on top to attract flies. NEVER HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH FLIES IN USING HOLLY-TONE. Holly-Tone has NPK 4-3-4 and more expensive than Plant-Tone.

    So the sulfate of potash you bought with 18% sulfur is WORTH THE MONEY, the sulfur helps to release potassium to plants. Potassium without sulfur tends to gunk up on top & can't be used by plants.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    8 days ago

    Thanks, Teresa! I'm looking forward to getting the potassium. :) How much do I use per fertilizing time?

    It's a beautiful day, I'm heading outside.


    Yeah, since I overwinter in the garage...I never think about winter hardiness. Good idea to wait.


    I've never used granular fertilizer. Good to know!

  • strawchicago
    8 days ago
    last modified: 8 days ago

    I used 1 Tablespoon of sulfate of potash per gallon of water, or 1 teaspoon per liter of water. But I find it easier just to sprinkle 1 Tablespoon per large bush (and less per small bush) around the plant and let it dissolved by acidic rain water. Even with 18% sulfur, potassium needs acidic rain water to wash it down to roots. Potassium mobility is 3, it moves down very slowly.

    I would use sulfate of potash FIRST, wait for 1 week or until acidic rain dissolves it completely. After acidic rain completely dissolves potassium, then apply 1 TBS of rock dust. Rock dust is alkaline and if applied at the same time as sulfate of potash, it will prevent potassium from going down the root zone. Sulfate of potash is VERY HIGH in potassium, less than 1 TBS is enough to induce blooming, but rock dust has calcium & magnesium & other trace elements so 1 TBS of that applied LATER is OK.

    Any fertilizer is best as SLOW-RELEASED, rather than all at once. So spreading around the bush on top (once a month before a heavy rain) is better than dissolve in water and feed it all at once. My best result is spreading potassium around the bush, below is the result with BIGGER blooms when I spread potassium sulfate with Gypsum/calcium sulfate (for more sulfur to dissolve potassium through my rock-hard clay). The middle deep pink is Liv Tyler. Red is Firefighter, white is Bolero, yellow is Honey Bouquet and orange is Versigny.


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  • strawchicago
    8 days ago
    last modified: 8 days ago

    Carol: I updated the info. above .. rock dust is alkaline and best applied LATER than potassium, after potassium is completely dissolved by acidic rain. Rock dust is alkaline and if applied AT THE SAME time might prevent potassium from going down by binding up potassium with rock dust's high pH. Potassium can't go down unless it's dissolved completely in acidic rain water, otherwise it's tied-up and plants can't use.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    8 days ago

    Teresa - thanks!! I actually understand!!! I can't believe it!!! LOL

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    8 days ago

    So, I'm rereading the information you gave me...and I went outside and put play sand (I hope that is the right type of sand) on top of my Augusta Luise soil and used my bamboo stake to push holes into the soil for the sand to fall through. Worked pretty well. Did I ( please say yes LOL) use the right type of sand???


    Also I'm not sure we talked about how often to give K. Every time I water with fish fert?


    My note book is full of notes. This is explaining a lot of problems I've been having with some of my roses...mainly the matte leafed ones.


    Thank you!!! :)


  • strawchicago
    7 days ago
    last modified: 7 days ago

    Carol: Augusta Luise is a German rose. My experience with German roses like Kordes is they need MORE POTASSIUM for blooming, or else they tend to have lots of leaves & little blooms. In HMF, alkaline & hot & dry California praised Augusta Luise, while folks in monsoon (rainy climate) reported problems. So Augusta needs GOOD DRAINAGE.

    Play sand doesn't drain well compared to coarse sand (YELLOW paver's sand). Coarse sand or YELLOW paver's sand is ALKALINE and it neutralizes the acidity of rain water. Water goes through sand faster than potting soil so it speeds up drainage.

    One approach to speed up drainage is to mix acidic gypsum (calcium sulfate) .. it breaks up dense soil (even potting soil). Augusta Luise has many petals which means it needs more calcium, but calcium is best for Augusta Luise in acidic form such as gypsum, since gypsum SPEEDS UP DRAINAGE, versus alkaline rock-dust or dolomitic lime "GLUE-UP" soil and slow down drainage due to its magnesium content.

    I grew Versigny with deep veins in leaves like Augusta Luise ... gypsum worked better for Versigny than lime (gypsum speeds up drainage versus lime slows down drainage). The SMOOTH & GLOSSY leaves (veins don't show) like Pretty Lady rose, Twilight Zone, Savannah can take poor drainage well .. these I plant in poor drainage clay & under the rain spout. But roses with VISIBLE VEINS in leaves like Augusta L. and Versigny need excellent drainage. My 1st Versigny did better up on a hill than my 2nd versigny in wet & dense clay. Same with pronounced-venation on leaves of St. Cecelia, that did lousy in wet & dense peat moss-potting soil, then died in poor-drainage clay one winter, so I bought a 2nd St. Cecelia and fixed my clay with coarse sand, and it's doing great.

    Same with perennial plants: yellow Sundrops (see pic. below) have VISIBLE veins in leaves and it declined in my poor-drainage wet clay, but vigorous in a dry & fluffy & loamy spot near trees. In contrast, smooth & glossy foliage peonies do great in my wet & dense clay.


    Paver's or coarse sand is safe to use since it's alkaline. Folks root roses in 1/2 coarse sand and 1/2 peat moss for EXCELLENT DRAINAGE. Coarse sand is alkaline so it neutralizes the acidity of rain, or the acidity of gypsum.

    The type of sand determine how fast the drainage is. Below link shows via pictures how fast water drain through 1) play sand 2) yellow silica sand or coarse sand 3) beach sand (grayish) 3) all purpose sand (with pebbles mixed in). The FASTEST drainage is yellow silica sand (coarse sand), next is beach sand, then last is all purpose sand with pebbles ... the pebbles impede drainage. Water also puddled up on top of play sand.

    https://mikesbackyardnursery.com/2015/10/exactly-what-is-and-where-do-i-find-coarse-sand-for-rooting-cuttings/

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    7 days ago

    Okay, I feel good....my play sand (as it says in the article that play sand is different in different areas)...my play sand is more like beach sand...it drains really well and when I poked holes in the soil for the sand to go down...it slid easily and quickly into the hole. Yay!!! For goodness sakes...I actually did something right! LOL Hmmm...should I ALSO put in some gypsum and poke that through into the soil? Maybe I'll wait and see how the sand does first. In the spring with all the rains we had...August Luise plants (I have 2) were wimpy and tiny 6". I didn't understand why they didn't grow. Now I do. I should have given them gypsum for drainage....or at least sand.


    That's interesting about Kordes roses. Normally I don't like Kordes roses, and maybe that's why. My new bare root Zaide though is doing really well...there are tons and tons of buds on it that are just starting to open.


    How, in general, do I recognize which plants need gypsum/sand for drainage? They just don't grow? Like my 6" Sweet Mademoiselle?


    This feels so good to understand what you're talking about. :) Thank you again!





  • strawchicago
    7 days ago
    last modified: 7 days ago

    Carol: Sweet M. is a French rose and best as own-root, rather than grafted on multiflora. My Sweet M. is VERY VIGOROUS as own-root, now 3 feet tall x 2.5 feet wide with 15+ blooms in 4 hours of morning sun. Vigorous French roses can't be confined to a bud-union on a rootstock, they need to stretch out their roots to gather the nutrients for thick canes & large leaves & large petals.

    Potting soil is light and doesn't have enough ALKALINE MINERALS like clay to nourish French roses with LARGE LEAVES & LARGE ROOTS & LARGE PETALS.

    When it rained heavy in spring, I looked out of my window and saw water floating on top of my pots. The pots had 1/2 potting soil and 1/2 coarse sand and it didn't drain fast enough .. that killed a bunch of my rootings. So I mixed in 1 cup of gypsum, poured a bucket of water to test, and it drained FAST.

    I tested lime and pea-gravel in potting soil .. lime "glued" soil together thus slow-down drainage, and pea-gravel also "glue-up" soil with its magnesium. Both slow down drainage, but gypsum's extreme acidity breaks up dense potting soil so water passes down faster. Gypsum is best mixed into potting soil at least a month before planting .. I killed 2 roses with gypsum since I didn't wait long enough for its acidity to be washed down by rain.

    LIGHT GREEN leaves can take acidic gypsum, but DARK GREEN leaves prefer lime or alkaline rock dust, Azomite or pea gravel. Sweet Mademoiselle has LIGHT GREEN but large leaves. I put at least 5 lbs. of acidic gypsum in its planting hole, and it's under a rain-spout and is still healthy with acidic rain. In contrast, French rose Baronne de Rothschild has DARK GREEN and GLOSSY LEAVES, very sensitive to acid ... that black spotted in acidic clay and I had to add lime to raise the pH. Dark-green & glossy leaves Kordes rose Savannah bloomed more with bio-char/wood ash at pH 13, but light-green & glossy Twilight zone hated it and got brown burns.

    Roses with TINY LEAVES require LESS minerals to form smaller leaves & thinner roots ... and they prefer LIGHTER soil like sand or loamy. A good example is William Morris which is Khalid's best performer as own-root in his sandy soil, posted as KBW organic in HMF:

    https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.18151&tab=36&qn=3&qc=0

    Note the small leaves in above link. Note the raised veins on the leaf. Raised veins mean the plant need more oxygen, so a LIGHTER & FLUFFIER soil is best. William Morris died in my wet & thick clay ... not enough oxygen.

    I also grow tomatoes. Tomatoes leaves are matte with NOTED VEINS, see below:


    Tomatoes did fantastic when planted in 100% cow manure compost. Tomatoes HAVE THIN & HAIRY CLUSTER ROOTS and need FAST DRAINAGE. But I put Rouge Royal rose (glossy smooth leaves) in cow manure compost (dry & fluffy mixed with bark-chips). I watered it daily, but it black spotted badly. When I dug it up, the soil was dry despite daily water. Plants with SMOOTH & GLOSSY leaves require a richer & wetter soil like dense clay or dense potting soil (with peat moss) & rich in nutrients.

    Plants with matte & raised veins foliage need a lighter soil with fast drainage ... such as sandy or loamy soil. In Facebook Fragrant Rose Lovers, the Pakistan rosarians who grow roses in pots with sandy soil (Khalid and Tahir Khan) ... their worst performers are the BIG GLOSSY leaves like Betty White and Sheila's perfume. Betty White is my best performer in dense & wet & heavy clay and its root is chunky & woody to go through my rock-hard-clay.

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  • strawchicago
    7 days ago
    last modified: 7 days ago

    Carol: I edited the above & added info. about light-green leaves can take acidic gypsum (calcium sulfate), but dark-green leaves prefer alkaline lime (calcium carbonate) or alkaline rock dust. See the changes above.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    7 days ago

    I'm going to get a picture and I'll post it tonight of my Augusta Luise's accordion style leaves. LOL My husband was outside with me and he said that my roses haven't looked this good for years and years. But, I know that they can be better...especially some of them. I'm excited to get my potassium!! And I'm not fertilizing with Miracle-Gro anymore. I'm also excited to see if the sand helps Augusta Luise. So I shouldn't add sand to my matte foliage unless they have raised veins?


    Also...maybe I shouldn't order any of Palatine's french roses they're offering this year, because they'll be grafted and won't do as well? What do you think?


    I can see now why my glossy leaved roses are doing better. I'll see if Augusta Luise gets any better...and if they do (2 plants) then I'll add some sand to my other matte leaved roses. Would that be reasonable...or only if they have raised veins?


    This is like taking a master gardener course!!! You're an excellent teacher!! Thanks!

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    7 days ago

    Both Baron deR and Savannah died or did so poorly that I got rid of them. I'm going to go put some gypsum on top of Sweet Mademoiselle (and push it in with my bamboo canes which I use to aerate the soil. I also put rusty screws in the pots (last year) to give iron. I have no idea if that's working LOL.

  • strawchicago
    7 days ago
    last modified: 7 days ago

    Carol: Only the red roses (Firefighter) with VERY RED NEW FOLIAGE need extra-iron, and red-lava-rock has iron (a few pieces on top is enough).

    Raised veins mean it needs fast drainage & more oxygen to roots. Soil which is too dense & wet doesn't have much oxygen, and raised veins hate that. Sand is alkaline & helps with drainage so it's perfect for dark-green and SMALL LEAVES Augusta Luise.

    For LARGE & raised-veins leaves roses like Versigny, I would use vermiculite to AERATE SOIL ... vermiculite has neutral pH and holds more potassium & nutrients than sand.

    DARK-GREEN leaves like Baronne de R. and Savannah need alkaline pH & they like bio-char (wood ash) at pH 13 !! Tiny leaves mean it prefer light soil (sandy or fluffy). Large leaves mean it needs heavy soil rich in minerals (like clay).

    Versigny, see below pic., is fussy as own-root since it has raised veins which needs excellent drainage, plus large leaves means it likes clay. My Versigny did best when it was on a steep hill with excellent drainage, plus planted in heavy clay made fluffy with pine-barks, creating air-pockets for oxygen.




    For pots, I would stay away from LARGE FRENCH roses with LARGE LEAVES & LARGE PETALS like Sweet Mademoiselles ... these need to spread out their roots to gather nutrients in rich soil like dense clay. Small roses with tiny leaves require less nutrients, plus roses with light green foliage can take acidic rain better. Some of the French roses have leaves TWICE LARGER than Austin roses, which demand more calcium & nitrogen to form. Nitrogen is most available in dense alkaline clay, and least in pots that leach out nitrogen. Below is my own root Sweet M, pic. taken today July 31. It's 3 feet wide x 3 feet tall with 15+ buds, occupies LOTS OF ROOM !! Sweet M. is six times bigger than Peter Mayle.


    In rooting roses, I have zero luck rooting raised-veins-leaves like Versigny, since I used dense peatmoss potting soil with 1/2 perlite. This year I added vermiculite and it made the mix FLUFFIER (thus more oxygen to roots) plus faster drainage. Vermiculite also holds more potassium & nutrients & water to nourish roots. Sand is heavier than vermiculite. So for the fast-drainage & large leaves & zillion petals, I lean toward vermiculite to "lighten up" the soil with more oxygen to roots. The large particle vermiculite is best for big plants, and the small particle vermiculite is used for rooting.

    From Wikipedia: "As a soil conditioner: Where the native soil is heavy or sticky, gentle mixing of vermiculite—up to one half the volume of the soil—is recommended. This creates air channels and allows the soil mix to breathe. Mixing vermiculite in flower and vegetable gardens or in potted plants will provide the necessary air to maintain vigorous plant growth. Where soils are sandy, mixing of vermiculite into the soil will allow the soil to hold the water and air needed for growth."

    More oxygen to roots can increase growth in any plants, see below link:

    https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/how-to-oxygenate-and-aerate-plant-roots.116090/

    "oxygen helps the roots absorb nutrients at a faster rate, and can increase a plant's growth rate by up to 30%. An example of a nicely aerated soil would be mixed as follows: 1/3 tree bark & 1/3 vermiculite & 1/3 sand.
    3. Super-enrich your water with oxygen by adding one(1) pint hydrogen peroxide to one(1) gallon water, shake vigorously for five(5) seconds, and allow to sit over night.
    4. Apply the usage of aeration, and as long as you keep the plants other needs met you can increase growth by up to 20%-30%."

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    7 days ago

    Your Sweet Mademoiselle blooms are fabulous with that deep tangerine color!!

    But quick question...for my new roses next year I should plant them all in

    - peat moss, vermiculite and sand

    - bark fines, vermiculite and sand

    - too big of a question...it depends on shiny or matte leaves.


    Thanks, Teresa.

    I'm kind of bummed that roses from France may be not the best choice for me.


    Here's my Augusta Luise leaves...hail damage has caused the rips in the leaves. Any thoughts on how very ridged they are. So they need more oxygen and better drainage?


    Here's my beautiful Chandos beauty which is a Harkness (England) rose. This may be my favorite rose...and it's probably like a French rose since England and France used to be connected.


    Here's a hip I crossed Stainless Steel X John Davis. Interesting cross, isn't it. :)


    This is my best rose...Parade Day...a Bedard rose.



    So vermiculite wouldn't be good for fast drainage needing roses. Sand or gypsum would be better.

    Interesting about the oxygen factor. One thing I do is I put the fish fertilizer in my huge wheelbarrow and set the hose sprayer on super vigorous...tons of air bubbles float to the top (big huge ones)...then I let it sit for awhile and then I use it. So I think I'm adding lots of oxygen.

    Thank you again!! Will my questions ever end??

  • strawchicago
    6 days ago
    last modified: 5 days ago

    Carol: Thanks for the pic. of raised veins on Augusta Luis' leaves. Your Chandos beauty is so pretty !! Love your clever cross of Stainless steel with John Davis. Your Parade Day is amazing !!

    Roses are water-hog and heavy-feeder ... so I would STAY AWAY FROM ANY BARK (too dry). STAY WAY FROM PERLITE (only holds 6% water and zero nutrients). My worst experience in pots was with cheap Schultz potting soil (mostly ground-up barks). Barks have zero nutrients & too dry. My best experience is MG-potting soil (peat moss & lime & wetting agent).

    Your roses are grafted on multiflora, and multiflora rootstock DOES NOT LIKE ALKALINE & DENSE nor salty soil. So multiflora rootstock is NOT COMPATIBLE for French roses with dark-green foliage which needs a higher pH. French roses are best as own-root. Multiflora-rootstock DOES NOT like too much alkaline lime or rock dust that raises the pH, so it's best to work on FAST DRAINAGE .. that way acidic rain water doesn't accumulate in pots.

    https://scvrs.homestead.com/Rootstock.html

    French roses are best own-roots, rather than grafted. Multiflora-rootstock has the LEAST BLOOMING power among 3 different root-stocks. Khalid in Pakistan also had the worst experience with multiflora-rootstock and grows own-roots instead. From the link entitled "An overview of fortuniana". "Here in the Desert Southwest, with our generally alkaline soils and extreme temperatures, we find that r. multiflora has a shorter life span, losing its vigor after five years. While fortuniana bushes had superior root systems, they had difficulty with the harsh & cold English climate. ... fortuniana plants produced about THREE TIMES the number of blooms as those on multiflora and TWICE as many as on Dr. Huey."

    What I see with Austin roses grafted on Dr.Huey at local rose parks: Tons of blooms the 1st year, less in 2nd year, and MUCH LESS in 3rd year .. then the rose parks get rid of them. But Austin and French roses as OWN-ROOTS continue to pump out blooms past 5 years (my best-blooming Austins are 10 year old).

    My experience with Comte de Chambord grafted on multiflora vs. own-root Comte: needs more wetness, plus fluffier soil with good aeration (oxygen to roots), plus SOLUBLE potassium & calcium for blooming. For calcium, I use gypsum with alkaline tap water, but I use lime or rock dust if I have tons of acidic rain. It's 1 part potassium to 1/2 part calcium.

    RAISED-RIDGE (VEINS) LEAVES: NEEDS FAST DRAINAGE & DOESN'T LIKE STANDING WATER & NEED AIR TO ROOTS.

    DARK-GREEN LEAVES like Augusta Luis: NEEDS FAST DRAINAGE PLUS ALKALINE pH. Dark-green leaves prefer alkaline pH and doesn't like acidic water pools up at root-level. So ALKALINE coarse sand helps with faster drainage & less blacks pots during acidic rain.

    Vermiculite IMPROVES DRAINAGE and AERATION, but wetter & lighter than sand. Vermiculite holds more nutrients than sand. Sand provides faster drainage & more alkaline, so it's good for roses that prefer drier & alkaline such as Augusta Luis (small & dark-green leaves). French rose Baronne de Rothschild (dark green glossy leaves) needs a higher pH .. it black spotted during too much acidic rain .. but improved when I fixed its planting hole for faster drainage with alkaline COARSE SAND.

    CONCLUSION; Smooth or glossy leaves roses .. they are best with MG-potting soil (mostly peat moss) for maximum wetness. Mixing in alkaline COARSE sand is good for roses that like drier & alkaline & aeration (Augusta Luis with raised-ridge leaves). Mixing in vermiculite is also good for roses with raised veins (ridge) that needs more air to roots. Vermiculite provides wetter and richer soil for roses that are NOT black spot prone. Vermiculite pH is neutral versus COARSE yellow sand is alkaline pH. Keep in mind pH of rain is 4.5 in Canada & my Chicagoland.

    Mixing in 1 cup of gypsum per 3 gallons of potting soil ONE MONTH BEFORE PLANTING is good for any roses. Gypsum speeds up drainage in pots plus supply calcium .. calcium is needed for growth in stems & flowers & leaves & roots.

    For the past decade I planted most of my 130 own-root roses in pots before transferring to my clay. The year which I forgot to mix in gypsum (calcium sulfate) in potting soil ONE MONTH in advance ... my roses got the worst black spots in pots due to acidic rain-water pooled up in pots. Mixing in gypsum into pots helps to speed up drainage during heavy rain. Gypsum is VERY ACIDIC so it corrodes potting soil but it creates air channels for faster drainage plus aeration. After letting the gypsum's acid washes through potting soil, I introduce earthworms into pots. Earthworms dig tunnels through soil & fluff up potting soil for maximum oxygen to roots.

    Below is tiny own-root band-size Crimson glory with 4 blooms in MG-potting soil mixed with alfalfa meal (for calcium & nutrients). It's a VERY WET & acidic & dense mix for its medium-green & matte leaves. But dark-green & glossy leaves like Betty White hates this soaking wet mix due to lower pH from alfalfa meal. I fixed Betty White's planting hole with alkaline COARSE SAND. Betty White prefers alkaline pH with its dark-green leaves & needs fast drainage since it doesn't like acidic rain-water pools up at root level. Using coarse sand for drainage is good for blackspot-prone roses, such as the dark-green & glossy leaves that prefer alkaline pH (Neil Diamond, Betty White, Baronne de Rothschild).


    If you buy vermiculite to improve drainage & more air for multiflora-rootstock... buy the LARGEST size possible. The smallest-grain vermiculite is for growing seeds, the medium-grain is for rooting roses, and the largest grain is for big plants to improve drainage and more oxygen to roots for fast growth. But alkaline coarse sand is BETTER for pots than vermiculite since pots accumulate too much acidic rain water and doesn't drain as fast as in open ground. Coarse sand drains faster than vermiculite. Pic. of different sizes vermiculite below:


    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • strawchicago
    5 days ago
    last modified: 5 days ago

    https://www.roselandroses.com/Roses.html

    Above link has a good description of type of leaves, such as dark-green & glossy Anna's Promise (did very well in wet potting soil). Also the type of leaves that Austin roses have, such as Boscobel with dark green & glossy leaves (does well for nanadoll's alkaline clay). After installing 6 rain-barrels and watering exclusively with acidic rain water (pH 4.5) ... I'm no longer crazy about dark-green, since my soil is no longer at pH 7.7 like 10 years ago. Baronne de Rothschild is giving me lots of problems with its dark-green & glossy foliage. Austin roses as own-root have been easy with my using acidic rain-water only. Evelyn with glossy & dark-green foliage is easy too if I apply bio-char at pH 13 to neutralize acidic rain. Austin roses can take prolonged wetness better, except for William Morris with raised-veins and tiny leaves (died in my wet clay made acidic with pine barks). William Morris also refused to bloom in wet potting soil, but it's Khalid's best bloomer in his sandy & fluffy soil.

    https://www.roselandroses.com/Roses.html

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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    5 days ago

    Teresa - what!!! That's not fair!!! The least blooming power of the 3 rootstocks!!! Not fair!! And on top of that they lose vigor after 5 years?? Dang! I wish I could get Fortuniana!! Personally, I don't think that another rootstock would be vertically vigorous enough for our short growing season...and what does it matter...I can't get any other type of rootstock. Own root...well...I'm not convinced it would be vigorous enough either.


    I did a quick look at the French roses I have that do well for me and those that don't.

    Do:

    - Pink Peace

    - Nicole Carol Miller (slow rebloom...but still fabulous)

    - Chartreuse de Parme (fabulous)

    - Chandos Beauty - well it's a Harkness...so more Great Britain (love, love)

    - Lasting Love (poor bloomer this year...but has done much better before)

    - Dee-Lish (huge and full of buds)

    - Soeur Emmanuelle (ditto Dee-Lish

    - Maria Callas (lots of huge flowers)


    Don't

    - Sweet Mademoiselle (el crappo)

    - Firefighter (again...el crappo)


    So in conclusion...I think I'll try some French roses. Maybe not very many...but some. :)


    Thanks, Teresa...I'm excited to see what type of seedlings come up...I'm hoping for at least one to live. :) More would be even better.


    Gotta go...will return

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    5 days ago

    I'm back. :)


    As to the cross...it wasn't really clever...LOL...it's what I had at the right stage of bloom. But, they're both really great roses....so...could be interesting!


    No Perlite or fines. That's all I used last year...what a mess. I hear you and I'm quite happy with that. :) I'm hearing: Miracle Gro and Vermiculite...maybe 1/3 vermiculite???


    So I'm curious what takes precedence...the rootstock or the grafted rose? I have lots of roses that have glossy leaves...so they like alkaline...but my rootstock likes acidic. So what to do? So for example...my Parade Day has dark green and glossy leaves. Likes Alkaline. So that trumps the rootstock?


    Fast drainage is important...hence the vermiculite. I've got quite a few bags of that.

    I've got some older in my garden roses...Memorial Day, Bishops Castle, Pink Peace, Nicole Carol Miller (each are about 10 years old in my yard)...they're doing really well still. The garage die off last year took out over half of my roses....so most of mine are new. So...I can't say much more about having long lived roses in my yard. Maybe I have so few because they did start to decline in vigor. Something to think about. But I don't want to have to take cuttings and make my own own-rooted roses. Too many years to catch up to the grafted ones.


    I just googled gypsum and I found that gypsum won't do anything to the pH which is good...so it's a good neutral source of calcium. But you found gypsum to be acidic...but maybe it's acidic but doesn't change the pH of the medium it's in?


    What do you think of just adding skim milk powder for calcium??


    You said before that dark green/glossy leaves like to be wet...so they wouldn't need good drainage...sand. Maybe I misunderstood and you were referring to black spot roses need good drainage regardless of what types of leaves they have? My vermiculite is coarse. Sometimes I hear you say that vermiculite is better than sand and others sand is better than vermiculute. I'm confused. :)


    This is so good for my brain health...I'm really learning lots. Thanks, Teresa!!


  • strawchicago
    5 days ago
    last modified: 5 days ago

    Carol: Thank you for your list of roses that live for a decade in your garden: Memorial Day, Bishops Castle, Pink Peace, Nicole Carol Miller. Thank you for your list of roses that perform well as grafted on multiflora.

    I'm rooting cuttings in 2 mediums: 1) vermiculite with potting soil plus gypsum. 2) peatmoss (pH 4) with alkaline coarse sand ... pH tested it and it came out neutral.

    The mix with vermiculite doesn't drain as fast as sand, but vermiculite is FLUFFIER & LIGHTER hence MORE AIR TO ROOTS. The mix with vermiculite DOES NOT DRY OUT FAST like sand mixed with peat moss. Vermiculite is best for water-hog Austin roses or glossy leaves.

    THE DARK-GREEN LEAVES are black spot prone. They need a higher pH and faster drainage. Firefighter has dark-green leaves and I had to fix the drainage & it doesn't like too much acidic rain. Sand is alkaline and helps to fix drainage with any black spot-prone roses.

    In contrast, I put all my LIGHT GREEN leaves under the rain spout: Sweet M., W.S. 2000, Pretty Lady rose, Twilight zone and they are healthy. Light-green leaves can take tons of acidic rain better than dark-green.

    Skip the skim-milk for calcium .. skim milk is sour and won't help during acidic rain. But a TINY BIT of rock dust helps to neutralize acidic rain (pH 4.5). Multiflora does well at neutral pH where all nutrients are most available & same with dark-green leaves. But too much alkaline rock dust or lime at one time will THICKEN the soil and become too alkaline which multiflora-rootstock hates. Calcium is best given in tiny doses (before acidic rain), rather than all at once which shoots up the pH. The logic for buying high potassium fertilize at NPK 0-0-50 is roses need TWICE MORE potassium than calcium (per U. of CA at Davis research).

    I had induced black spots in many experiments with acidity. I almost killed Wise Portia by giving it sour grapefruit-juice to fix my alkaline tap (pH 9). I tested acidic Brewer's yeast on 100% healthy Excellenz von Shubert and it broke out in blackspots for the 1st time in 8 years !! Same with fixing my alkaline tap water with vinegar.

    Gypsum IS VERY ACIDIC, it literally "melts" rock-hard clay into fluff. The web stated that gypsum is neutral pH, since THEY TESTED IT AFTER the acid had already passed through soil (with watering). I takes at least 1 month before gypsum's acid (21% sulfur) passes through soil with watering. Many roses broke out in black spots instantly when I applied gypsum on top.

    Lime thickens the soil and slows down drainage, plus too much calcium suppresses potassium and phosphorus for blooming. Best pH is at neutral, rather than too much lime or rock dust which makes it too alkaline. I killed far more roses (4) with acidic gypsum, but I never kill any rose with lime ... they simply become pale & refuse to bloom.

    It's good to trace the heritage of French roses. Dee-lish, Sweet M. and Versigny have Graham Thomas as its parents ... and these can take acidic rain without black spots, since Graham Thomas is a healthy Austin rose. I'm reluctant to buy Golden Zest for years since its parent is Golden Celebration (black spot prone).

    The GLOSS means how much potassium they need, since potassium is most available in wet & dense soil. Potassium is also most available at neutral to alkaline pH. GLOSSY leaves prefer wet & dense medium like MG-potting soil (with high-water retention peat moss) or soaking wet clay (clay retains water better than sand, and vermiculite also retains water better than sand). In 2014 I told Kelly in MN the tip of sulfate of potash and gypsum, she sent me cuttings of her roses and THEY WERE ALL GLOSSY & dark-green & healthy (even Nahema). High potassium does that: make canes thicker, leaves thicker and GLOSSY & DARKER GREEN. During acidic rain, less potassium is available unless there's fertilizer to supply potassium or rock dust or pea-gravel to raise the pH to neutral where potassium & nutrients are most available.

    Multiflora DOES NOT LIKE EXTREME ALKALINE to the point of dense-clay like mine at pH 7.7. Multiflora is a cluster root, and prefers loamy & fluffy soil. Dr.Huey is one-fat-long-big stick, and doesn't have much cluster so high-phosphorus helps Dr.Huey to branch out in cluster-root & more blooms. As to blooming power, Dr.Huey is fantastic in its 1st and 2nd year, then it's A HUGE decline in health and blooms in 3rd years and after (mildew and black spots).

    Multiflora is better than Dr.Huey in health for heavy-rain region or wet pot. Two of my roses (grafted on Dr.Huey) died this year from spring flood. But I saw Comte de Chambord (grafted on multiflora) happily swimming by the rain spout & more blooms. It was stingy in a dry spot, so I moved it next to the rain spout.

    For dark green leaves or blackspot-prone roses grafted on Multiflora, the best solution is to to UP the pH to neutral with alkaline sand (also drains out acidic rain fast). I had to UP the pH for dark-green Savannah to bloom more. Multiflora does well at neutral pH if the soil is fluffy & airy for its cluster roots. Roots can get more potassium & phosphorus in soil if the soil is fluffy & airy. Potassium is for healthier leaves and to prevent diseases like black spots and mildew.

    For other roses grafted on Multiflora, vermiculite at neutral pH is WETTER & FLUFFIER and is fantastic for any roses grafted on Multiflora, except for the dark-green leaves that prefer higher pH. Coarse yellow sand is more alkaline than vermiculite.

    My clay is dense & heavy and does not drain fast, and Baronne de Rothschild with DARK-GREEN LEAVES is black spot prone during acidic rain. It was 100% healthy in MG-potting soil mixed with coarse sand, then I moved it to dense & slower drainage clay and it broke out in black spot during acidic rain (pH 4.5 here).

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    5 days ago

    I put a tiny bit of glacial rock (small end of green Miracle Grow scoop) till on each plant and added my weakly made fish oil/water mixture.

    Glossy

    Chandos Beauty (up)

    White Licorice (same - good)

    Julia Child - (up)


    Matte (some not noted may be semi-glossy...forgot to check)

    - Dee-Lish (up)

    - Augusta Luise (up a lot)

    - Stainless Steel (up)

    - Chartreuse de Parme dark green large leaves (up)

    - Fortitude - matte (up)

    - PJP II - (no fragrance???)

    - Sceptr'd Isle (up)

    - Bishop's Castle - (down)

    - Jadis - (up)

    - Jacques Cartier (up)

    - Pretty Lady Rose (semi-glossy) (up)

    - Beverly (no difference, no fragrance)

    - Portrait (no difference...good fragrance)

    - Emma Haftl - (up...first time fragrance)

    - Zaide (semi-glossy) (up a bit)


    So, in general...it helps all types of leaves. I'm going to fertilize every other day. Does that make sense?


    So, I have made the mistake of adding a LOT of lime 1/2 cup to a cup at a time. These roses are still shrimps...Sweet Mademoiselle and Firefighter. So it's not their fault that I've ruined them. Lesson learned.


    Interesting about the gypsum. Okay. :) Interesting about the heritage of French roses. Never thought of doing that. :) I sure love my Dee-Lish!!


    So...if the leaves are changed by K to become glossier...do they then need more alkaline soil/fertilizer?


    Happily swimming by the rain spout. LOL


    :) :) Thanks!! This is fun!

  • strawchicago
    5 days ago
    last modified: 5 days ago

    Carol: if the leaves improve (become glossier) with K fertilzer, then they take fertlizer well. Nahema becomes glossier with K, and it takes LOTS OF SOLUBLE of fertilizer to bloom. But Firefighter (matte) never respond well with more fertilizer ... leaves get brown burns.

    Sweet M. likes it acidic .. lime at pH 12 is too alkaline for it. I planted it right next to the rain-spout and fixed the soil with tons of acidic gypsum. Pretty Lady Rose is right next to Sweet M., Sweet M is 100% healthy while Pretty Lady Rose broke out in a tiny bit of black spot from recent rain.

    Firefighter needs more iron, and lime suppresses iron. Changing the soil might improve both Firefighter and Sweet M. There's one rose that I put too much lime in the pot (back in 2013) ... it refused to grow & bloom. I ended up replacing the soil in that pot.

    Thank you for that list of which roses' scent UP with MG-fertilizer and rock dust. Beverly is out of my wish-list, I want STRONG scents only. My neighbor has a stingy Rugosa rose and she TIED SILK FLOWERS on it .. from a distance it was impressive how many blooms she has. Only when I talked to her, that I learned it's artificial flowers. Rugosa rose has VISIBLE ridges (veins) on leaves and IT HATES our dense & poor-drainage wet clay .. Rugosa prefers sandy & fluffy soil. Rugosa is known as "beach rose" since it can take sandy soil. See pic. of Rugosa leaves below (from the web):


    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    5 days ago

    Oh!!! For some reason I thought you had said that Sweet Mademoiselle likes it alkaline!!! Dang! Maybe that's the problem.


    I still don't have any K...it's on the way. I'm excited for it to come. We have really hot temps today (for us) 28C/82F...and my roses actually have fragrance in this heat!! I'm really surprised.


    I'm probably going to toss Firefighter and Sweet Mademoiselle this winter. We'll see. I'll go throw some gypsum on top and see how it goes.


    Silk flowers!!! Hahaha!!!! I've never heard of that before...I'd give up roses before I did that. LOL Yes...I can see the resemblance between My Augusta and that Rugosa rose. Definitely!


    Thanks, Straw! I'm going back out into the heat to water in some gypsum.



  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    3 days ago

    Teresa - my roses are doing SOOOO much better!! There are more blooms (even without the extra phosphorous), tons less aphids...barely any, and more fragrance! I'm so happy that you have helped me so successfully!! And there's more growth too....they just seem "happier." Thank you immensely!!! And, I can't believe that I understand what you say...it used to be total gibberish to me. I guess it's because you repeated the information so much that I finally got it. Thank you!!!!

  • strawchicago
    3 days ago
    last modified: 3 days ago

    Carol: You'll like sulfate of potash: faster growth & darker and glossy leaves & thicker stems & thicker leaves to prevent diseases. I pre-mix that sulfate of potash NPK 0-0-50 with vinegar in a bottle, and put a bit in my used-kitchen-tap-water (pH 9). This month I accidentally dumped out too much and gave to Cornelia rose. It's always tiny 1 foot x 1 foot for the past 4 years. It's planted on top of a bed of limestone rocks. For the first time in 4 years, it gave an octopus cane at 4 feet long, after the sulfate of potash overdose. I also gave that to my one tomato and it exploded in growth.

    Gypsum (calcium sulfate, 21% sulfur) also gives growth spurt, but doesn't have the glossy & dark-green healthy look of sulfate of potash with 18% sulfur.

    SULFUR IS NECESSARY FOR GROWTH, and it is LESS AVAILABLE at too high pH (too much lime) or too low pH (too much acidic rain).

    I once posted a picture in Organic Rose forum how Munstead Wood (in a pot) shot out a 3 feet octopus cane with gypsum (with 21% sulfur). Munstead Wood has LIGHT GREEN leaves like Sweet M., so both can take acid in gypsum. But Sweet M. has LARGER leaves, so it prefers heavy & dense soil that retains acidic rain ... the same dense soil that killed William Morris (TINY leaves). I should had planted William Morris in sand, after Khalid in Pakistan informed me that it's his best performer as own-root in sandy & alkaline soil.

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    2 days ago

    The container of K that I got says that you can plant with K because it will continue releasing throughout the year and it's neutral. Do you ever plant with it?


    Also...I noticed today that the fragrance isn't so good. There are some roses with good fragrance...but a lot don't. I should have made note of whether they were glossy or matte leafed. How do I increase fragrance?


    Wow! That's quite the difference with your Cornelia rose!


    Should I premix my K with vinegar? I thought that vinegar kills plant material?



  • strawchicago
    2 days ago
    last modified: 2 days ago

    Carol: The only reason why I mixed vinegar with my tap water plus K is: My tap water IS EXTREMELY ALKALINE at pH 9, and nothing can dissolve at high pH. We don't have much rain this dry month. My best experience with K is to sprinkle around the plant and let ACIDIC RAIN water at pH 4.5 dissolve it gradually. Mixing with vinegar (pH 2 to 3) will hurt plants if your tap water doesn't have high pH at 9 like mine.

    Yes, I did plant with K when I mixed Tomato-Tone (NPK 3-4-6) into potting soil at the rate of 1 cup per 2 gallon potting soil .. it has sulfate of potash. That helps with fast growth since potassium is needed for root-growth & flowering. The 18% sulfur in potassium sulfate also helps with growth and dark-green leaves. Since your sulfate of potash NPK is 0-0-50, VERY HIGH in potassium, I would use only 1 Tablespoon mixed with 1 gallon potting soil.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    2 days ago

    Fragrance came in today. Guess it takes overnight for the glacial till and fish fert. to start working.


    I can see why you use vinegar now and why I don't need to.


    I used 1/2 tsp of potassium 0-0-22 per plant yesterday, and my plan is to fertilize every other day with a weak fish fert./water solution, 1/2 tsp of glacial till and 1/2 tsp of potassium. Do you think this is sound? Or do you think I'm overdoing it? I have no idea.


    I found this: Sometimes winter hardiness can be increased by adding potassium in the fall.


    That's interesting, isn't it!

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    2 days ago

    Carol, that is very interesting and I wonder why we cold zoners don't hear about that more often. If we can increase the survival rate of our roses by doing something so simple, why isn't it widely known. I think it would apply to you with your roses in the garage through winter, too. Straw, what do you think about sprinkling potassium around the roses in the fall, or is it better in liquid form?

    My winter survival rate is great since I started using arborist wood chip mulch, but the late spring freezes are brutal. I wonder if a fall dose of potassium would protect against the spring freezes.

    rosecanadian thanked flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    2 days ago

    Flowers - Yeah, we should try this! Might especially help young roses that are more at risk. Good for you for getting better survival by using wood chip mulch!


    I found this about wood chip mulch and potassium. It's a little too technical for me.

    http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Do_wood_and_straw_raise_soil_potassium_levels__63__/



  • strawchicago
    yesterday
    last modified: yesterday

    Andrea: I tested high potassium before winter but my Frederic Mistral didn't survive that winter since its roots is shallow. Our rock-hard-clay PUSHES the roots upward in the winter. Chicago Botanical Garden with 5,000 roses has an article of how roots GO DEEPER in loamy & fluffy soil, but roots got pushed up in the winter IN CLAY SOIL SINCE CLAY EXPANDS WHEN IT FREEZES.

    I always plant roses at least 4 to 6 inch. deep. When a few roses died through the winter, I was surprised that their roots are PUSHED UPWARD & quite shallow when I dig them up. Henceforth, I make the BOTTOM OF THE HOLE very fluffy & loamy for best winter survival. As to putting red-lava-rocks or pea-gravel AT THE BOTTOM for minerals, I put them in a LARGE circle (OUTER circumference) of the root-zone so these pebbles don't block water and create poor drainage.

    CAROL: Potassium moves down very slowly since its mobility is a 3 (compared to nitrogen mobility of 10) .. that's why high-nitrogen fertilizer (MG-soluble) is best in diluted dose WITH EVERY WATERING. But Potassium is best applied before blooming, and when roses are almost done blooming.

    Potassium is needed to initiate blooming, and is also needed when almost done with blooming to prevent diseases. Note how some roses tend to black spot RIGHT AFTER blooming? Blooming causes a potassium deficiency, and when potassium goes down, disease occur.

    So Potassium is best applied when roses already reach the height and the amount of leaves you want, RIGHT BEFORE BLOOMING. It's also best applied when the blooming is almost done, to prevent black spots on leaves from potassium-depletion. Blooms need more potassium and calcium than phosphorus. Phosphorus is needed in 1/10 of potassium, and calcium is needed in 1/2 of potassium. Phosphorus is useful for branching of stems and roots.

    If you want ONE BLOOM per stem, then use a high phosphorus fertilizer ... that also result in MORE PESTS and diseases since high phosphorus drives down potassium. Too much potassium result in CLUSTER BLOOMING (tons of blooms per stem) but I would rather have healthy plants than one-bloom per stem as in high phosphorus.

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    yesterday

    That makes sense about your roots being pushed up by clay.


    Interesting about too much potassium resulting in cluster blooming. I agree...that sounds better than using high phosphorous. So you think a large amount of potassium right after all the rains and right before fall is better. How much do you think? I have no clue. But I am going to use K for awhile...because I think they really need it.


    Thanks, Teresa!

  • strawchicago
    yesterday
    last modified: yesterday

    Carol: I had good result with only 1 Tablespoon to induce more blooms. For VERY black spot prone roses or HEAVY BLOOMERS that are prone to potassium depletion, I use 2 tablespoons when the flush is almost over (but blooms are still on the bush). If I WAIT until ALL THE FLOWERS fall off, then it's too late with thinner leaves and black spots taking over. The heavy bloomers tend to be more black-spot prone with severe potassium depletion than the stingy roses. Blooming takes A LOT of potassium and calcium.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    yesterday

    It sounds like potassium won't help with winter survival or spring freezes especially in clay soil, but I'll try it for black spot after blooming. For the last 2 years, I've had BS because of more humidity, which is very unusual in this super dry climate.

    Thanks, Straw!

    rosecanadian thanked flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    yesterday

    Okay...so that's 3 tablespoons for the whole summer for each plant? Okay...I'll stop for now then. :) Thanks ... what would we do without you!!

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    yesterday

    Oh, wait...maybe you meant 2 tablespoons after EACH flush???

  • strawchicago
    yesterday
    last modified: 23 hours ago

    Carol: For healthy roses: 3 TBS for the entire summer, that's one TBS before a flush to promote more blooms.

    For black-spot prone roses: 2 TBS at mid-flush (when blooms are at its peak) ... that's to prevent leaves from getting thin from potassium-depletion. IF YOU SPRINKLE AROUND the rose-bush, it takes longer for potassium to reach down to roots. 2 TBS is safe when it's slow-released (dissolved slowly by rain).

    If you dilute potassium with water then THE RESULT IS IMMEDIATE. For IMMEDIATE dousing of potassium, I give ONLY ONE TABLESPOON per gallon of water for black-spot prone roses when blooms are almost gone.

    Since sulfate of potash has 18% sulfur, the sulfur-part PROMOTES IMMEDIATE GROWTH, so a black-spot prone rose is quick to re-grow leaves if there's plenty of sulfur. I tested Holly-Tone (with 5% sulfur), NPK 4-3-4 .. but I used too much so it's 10% sulfur and NPK 8-6-8. That was enough to make roses grow super-fast, with James Galway at 20 feet tall, Dee-lish at 6 feet tall. Roses were too tall & lots of dark-green leaves but very few blooms.

    This year I tested Plant-Tone at NPK 5-3-3, a bit higher in nitrogen at 5, but WITHOUT SULFUR to promote growth. Roses are at the same height and re-growth of leaves on black spotted-roses are none !!

    What makes sulfate of potash works immediately for black-spot prone roses is: 1) Fast re-growth of leaves via 18% sulfur if used together with nitrogen 2) potassium at 50, which is extremely high for THICKER leaves to prevent fungal invasion, also to promote budding for the next blooming.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    22 hours ago

    I wonder why my roses never get blackspot. In all the years I've grown roses and in many places...Fort McMurray (hardy roses), Edmonton (hardy) and Calgary (tender roses in pots)...I've only had about 2 or 3 roses that have had bs....and those I chucked...both were lavender roses. So I don't have to worry about potassium for bs prevention. Thank goodness. :)


    I guess I'll stop now giving K to my roses until later in the season. I've given 3 tsps to each rose (a total from every other day giving 1/2 tsp).


    Just before I started giving the K, my Memorial Day rose shot a cane up that is about 2 1/2 feet. It's about a foot higher than the rest of the canes...more like the usual growth of Memorial Day a few years ago (last year was the year from rose hell, and this year was garage die off and not fertilizing properly). At first I thought it was RRD...but there were no thorns...so I figured that the glacial till and fish fert. had given it a big push.


    Wow! Sulfur is really necessary! Good example!


    I have to reread everything and take a few more notes. A bit too tired now.

    Thank you Teresa!!

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    22 hours ago
  • strawchicago
    12 hours ago
    last modified: 12 hours ago

    Carol: Thanks for the link above. That's the big advantage of your roses grafted on multiflora: not much black spots. Multiflora is a cluster-root and can handle acidic rain better than big-fat-woody-stick Dr.Huey-rootstock. Dr. Huey rootstock doesn't like too much acidic rain at pH 4.5 .. two died during spring flood here.

    rosecanadian thanked strawchicago
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    10 hours ago

    Oh, I didn't know that! That IS great!! :)


    Wow...you had two Dr. Hurey rootstock grafted roses that died because of too much rain. Yikes!

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