rosecanadian

Can a triploid rose (John Davis) fertilize a HT?

rosecanadian
25 days ago

I have John Davis pollen that I got from my bush...but...hmf says that it's a triploid. And I found that most HTs are tetraploids. Can I use the triploid pollen to hybridize a HT? If not...could I use it on Jacques Cartier?

Thanks!

Comments (34)

  • mad_gallica
    25 days ago

    My understanding is that triploids are mostly sterile. It is not impossible to cross a triploid with a tetraploid, but extremely unlikely.

  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
    25 days ago

    And even more unlikely that a triploid would be wielding a bag of Rosetone.

    I speak from experience. Those fruit fly labs were kept too damn hot.

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    25 days ago
    last modified: 25 days ago

    Mad_Gallica - thanks!! John Davis did give me hips...and I kept one and had one seedling. So it's not sterile. So at least that's on the plus side. :) I ended up fertilizing the only flowers that were in the "I want to make babies" stage. LOL I wasn't choosy. So I put John Davis pollen on Stainless, Steel, Berolina, Dolly Parton and Chartreuse de Parme. I guess we'll see.


    rifis - I hardly ever know what you're saying. ???

  • roseseek
    25 days ago

    Not all triploids are sterile. Just as with all other roses, some are completely sterile; some are pollen infertile; some are seed infertile. But, there are a number of highly fertile triploids and they often create fertile triploids as offspring. Ralph Moore's Golden Angel is triploid. Golden Angle when crossed with tetraploid Orangead, created Torch of Liberty, a highly fertile triploid. Torch of Liberty crossed with tetraploid Basye's Legacy resulted in triploid (and HIGHLY fertile in both directions) Lynnie. If it weren't for fertile triploids, I wouldn't have been able to raise the R. Minutifolia hybrids I've raised. I had made those crossed probably hundreds of times using diploids and tetraploids and none worked. A mini, very probably a triploid from the way it breeds, made MANY obvious crosses with the species.

    One of the really fun features of fertile triploids is how they produce uneven crosses. You might usually expect to see something half way between the two parents if the ploidys match, but with triploids, you often obtain 1/3 to 2/3 splits, so you can easily obtain repeat bloom from once-flowering types in the first generation. Imagine this result from crossing Golden Angel X what is probably R. Spithamea.

    So, don't give up on a rose simply because it's a triploid. It just might surprise you.




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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    25 days ago

    Thanks, Roseseek!! I was really hoping you'd jump in! Fascinating!!! Here's hoping that at least one of my crosses sets a hip. :)

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    25 days ago

    Thanks, Roseseek!!! I think tomorrow, I may do a cross on my John Davis plant (if I have a rose that is at the right stage to give pollen). I really hope this works and that I can show off :) some seedlings next spring. :) :)

  • roseseek
    25 days ago

    Fingers are crossed for you!

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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    25 days ago

    Thanks, Roseseek!!! :) :)

  • roseseek
    25 days ago

    You're welcome!

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  • rosecanadian thanked henry_kuska
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    24 days ago

    Wow, Henry...I was also hoping that you would add to this conversation! That is very helpful!! I don't really expect to get winter hardiness in any seedlings I may get, because I'm using hybrid teas. But, I guess you never know....my Night Owl is really hardy...I have it in the front of the garage...and it lives...we had -34C/-29F weather with strong howling winds and my daughter left the garage door open for 3 hours. Over half of my roses died...but Night Owl (right in the front) did well. So maybe I should try to get pollen from Night Owl. Time is definitely running out on ripening time....but John Davis is getting its first buds only now. Plus, its hips are small so may not need much ripening time. Here's hoping!

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    3 days ago

    I've got a cross that took hold!! Stainless Steel X John Davis!!! Really cool!!




  • roseseek
    2 days ago

    Marvelous! Congratulations! I hope it germinates well for you.

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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    2 days ago

    Yes, me too! There's still a lot of obstacles to making a seedling and then a plant. I hope at least one lives. :) Thanks so much for your encouragement!!!

  • roseseek
    2 days ago

    You're welcome! It's exciting! Once these germinate and you see how easy it can be, you'll look back on all of this and wonder why you didn't start doing it sooner. Wait until you start generating so many crosses, you start praying for crop failure! There are so many I just HAVE to see what they might do that it quickly becomes frightening how many there are! LOL! You're going to have a ball. And, WE get to watch!

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    2 days ago

    Roseseek - Awwww...you are too kind!! You know, I did try to do it earlier. I have been trying for about 4 years...but nothing ever has enough time for the hip to ripen...but this year I'm going to roll the rose in and out of the garage to take advantage of day time temps that are warm enough. I also had a John Davis OP...but it died over winter.

    Crop failure. LOL Can you share pics of your favorite crosses? I'd love to see!

  • roseseek
    yesterday

    You're welcome! I can only imagine not having a long enough season to accomplish what you want to accomplish. You have more gumption than I! This climate is such a blessing. I can literally pollinate year round and plant seeds the same way. Later plantings may not germinate quite as well as those planted late fall to early winter, but they do come up.


    Favorite seedlings... which is your favorite child? LOL! OK, here are a few...


    Apricot Twist X Atmore Lamarque



    Blue for You X (First Impression X April Mooncrest)



    Florence Bowers Pink Tea X Paul Barden's 42-03-02, the self seedling of Ralph Moore's 0-47-19, the Wichurana X Floradora breeder. This is sort of along the thought line of Mel's Heritage.




    L56Min2 self seedling. L56Min2 is L56-1 X R. Minutifolia. I've raised a number of self seedlings to see what genes express themselves. Minutifolia is definitely "in there"! These are some of the world's first hybrid R. Minutifolia's. What benefit they may offer is anyone's guess. But they exist!





    (Indian Love Call X L56-1) X Kim Rupert




    George Washington Richardson (which is Mlle de Sombreuil) X (First Impression X April Mooncrest)




    Nessie X Faith Whittlesey #3



    Nessie X Sweet Riley. Nessie is [(R. Brunonii X R. Gigantea) X Mlle Cecile Brunner). Sweet Riley is named for a friend's grand daughter and resulted from Yellow Sally (a Sally Holmes seedling I raised) X Secret Garden Musk Climber.



    One of many Nessie X Annie Laurie McDowell.



    And, yes, all of these are scented. The Minutifolia hybrids aren't AS scented, but they all smell. Is that enough of a taste?

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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    yesterday

    More, more!!! :)


    My faves are the last one, the Blue For You cross, The Florence Bower cross, the Indian Love cross (my most favorite!!), and ...oh, I'm like you....I love them all!!! LOL


    So, I grow my roses in pots...and any seedling that I may keep means a rose that is a proven for sale rose has to go or I can't get. How do you deal with that?


    Thanks Kim!!

  • roseseek
    yesterday

    That's disappointing...I answered and posted quite a few more photos and POOF! They're gone.


    You do what you need to do to allow you to do what you want to do. What's more important to you? Growing what someone else created or enjoying growing up with those YOU created? Either is valid and that is up to you to decide. I well know that issue as I grow everything in cans, too. I have to due to seismically engineered soil, compacted to bed rock density so any earthquake waves will pass through it with little to no shaking. I had a choice. I could buy the traditional sand here, complete with extreme drainage and gophers, which would shake like mad should there be an earthquake and likely experience liquefaction with the resulting damage to the house (and maybe US). Or, I could buy a newer home on a bit smaller lot with bedrock density soil and no drainage (and no gophers) where there shouldn't be much, if any, shaking should there be an earthquake. Those are guaranteed to occur. It isn't "if", but "WHEN" and having already lived through two heavily earthquake damaged homes in years past, I pushed for the impossible to garden in but no shaking damage construction. It would be great to be able to dig a hole to plant something, but each year I get older and less able to haul debris outside from where it happened, so I don't want that specter staring at me from the future.


    I have far too many pots (FAR too many) so each time I decide to keep something to watch, something else has to go away. That was a lot easier when I lived near people who wanted roses. Here, not so much, so they get sent off to the city mulch program.


    Here are a few more using L56-1, a single, red mini Jim Sproul (Eyeconic Lemonade series, Honey Dijon and Thrive! among MANY others) shared with me. It's the one which allowed Minutifolia to cross with modern roses and breeds like a triploid, yielding some pretty unusual results.


    L56-1 X Grandmother's Hat, single, pink.



    L56-1 X Grandmother's Hat, double



    Pretty Lady X (L56-1 X R. Fedtschenkoana)


    L56-1 X Eyes for You


    1-72-1Hugonis flore plena, double, thornless Hugonis hybrid.


    Ping Dong Yue Ji X 1-72-1Hugonis. Found rose from China X (miniature X species)



    And, just to see "what if?", Pink Clouds self seedling. Pink Clouds makes SO many self set hips and it's such a good plant here, I had to see what it might make. I'm pressing it into use this year. It's too nice not to.



    That has to be enough for a while!

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  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    yesterday

    Kim, thank you for those great photos and stories. Beautiful!

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  • roseseek
    yesterday

    Thanks, Sheila, but we have to thank Carol for asking for them! Today, I found this tiny hip on L56Min2 X Tom Thumb. I created it trying to miniaturize the Minutifolia seedlings. To further enhance the species traits, I pollinated it with more Minutifolia pollen. It's so small, I can't tag the crosses so I removed the sepals and anthers and only put Minutifolia pollen on it. Any hip with sepals is self set. Those without them, are from Minutifolia. It's SO tiny!




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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    yesterday

    Kim - thank you for persisting even after having lost the pictures. That is so frustrating when it happens.

    - I think my favorite is your Pink Cloud selfed seedling!! What a unique flower!!! The picotee edging is wonderful and I love how the edges looking like they're in motion!! Maybe a good name would be Picotee Movement or Picotee Dancer.

    - Look at that adorable Hugonis cross tiny yellow bloom! What wonderful petals!!

    - The Eyes for You cross seedling has that wonderful shading on the petals!! That's my 2nd favorite!!

    I really love the Pretty Lady seedling...such a satiny texture to the petals!!

    And your last picture shows a really beautiful pink with a white eye!!! Lovely!!!

    Thanks so much!! :)


    We have glacial till everywhere and so my perennial garden is only about 6-8 inches deep. I grow huge plants (maybe because of all of the minerals in the glacial till) but the roots all grow sideways...when I dig something up...the roots look freaky. Because of the glacial till all of my roses are in pots...but the lemonade out of lemons part is that I can overwinter the pots in my garage...so I can grow roses far out of my zone.


    I think you made a great choice in going for structurally sound. :)

  • roseseek
    18 hours ago

    Thank you! See? Thousands of miles apart, even different countries and we still deal with virtually the same soil issues! Container gardening does have some benefits. It definitely makes dumping something easier. I agree. Structurally sound should win out every time. It just ain't no danged fun dragging damaged and broken furniture and possessions out of a collapsed building. It was depressing, frightening and heartbreaking fifty and thirty years ago. It would kill me to have to do that now.

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  • pricklycuttingnoca
    17 hours ago

    Some little roses pictured here are just so nice. I had to ask the question, how long and what does it take for a seedling to go to our market?

  • roseseek
    16 hours ago

    That will depend upon how it goes to market. If it's going through the traditional routes (Ball, Greenheart, J&P, Certified, Star, etc.) it can take years, if ever. If it's something that's gained a following here or on other social media routes, and a nursery with distribution likes and and requests permission to sell it, that can take a year or two...or twenty. I won't provide seedlings to trials, so I can't offer first hand experiences there. From those whom I know who do, it can require years of treading water and you may, or may not, ever have any results. One famous "trial" required you to provide a dozen plants of each seedling you wished to PAY to have "trialed". No thanks. I'm not interested in providing them with plants to make their garden pretty at MY expense, AND pay for the "privilege".

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  • pricklycuttingnoca
    15 hours ago

    Thank you, roseseek! That's some insight for a regular rose lover like me. You may want to promote a seedling that's especially nice, so it can get famous and go down history. OK, like the roses would care.


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  • roseseek
    15 hours ago

    You're welcome. I've raised several I hope will outlive me. They're good, not just in my estimation, but others have said so, too. Unfortunately, it's very common for them to disappear as soon as you do, unless you are affiliated with an old J&P or Week's type concern. Herb Zipper raised several really interesting minis from Buck's Maytime that were supposedly quite disease resistant. He retired and they disappeared. Louis Stoddard raised several species hybrids which sounded rather interesting and they disappeared as soon as he passed. The vast majority of Ralph Moore's roses aren't available for sale now, even though many are still grown in gardens and at TAMU. So, you just spread things around to the best of your ability and pray that someone, someday discovers and appreciates them.

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  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    13 hours ago

    I appreciate Annie Laurie McDowell, Kim.



    She is own root and lolling about in 100 F heat!

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  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    13 hours ago
    last modified: 13 hours ago

    Yes, we don't get earthquakes here...so I don't know firsthand the fear of an earthquake. No more earthquakes for you! :) That is pretty interesting that we have the same soil issues. :)

    I didn't know it was that difficult to get a rose to market. Who needs that? :) And such fleeting fame. Nope. Sounds like some really great roses have been lost.


    I have such a good feeling every time I look at my fecund fat rosehips!! I feel like such a proud mom!!

  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    13 hours ago

    GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a SERIOUSLY GORGEOUS rose!!! I just hmf'd it and...Kim...it's YOURS!!! Sheila - how did you get it...is it in market or do you know Kim? I've been on this rose forum forever...and I didn't know!!!

    WOW!!!

  • roseseek
    13 hours ago

    You should, Carol! Thank you, Sheila. That's gorgeous! Not bad for something that 'won't grow own root". Please post those to HMF! I was recently contacted by Annie Laurie's daughter. She said she and her brother want plants of "mom's rose" to plant in their gardens and wants me to help her obtain them. It was lovely hearing from them! The last I saw them, about the time Annie Laurie passed, her grandson was per teen. He just turned 29!

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  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    13 hours ago

    I got mine from Burlington roses, Carol. It is a great rose. It always looks happy. It is a slow grower on it's own roots. This is an example of a great rose that needs more sources.

    rosecanadian thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • rosecanadian
    Original Author
    5 hours ago

    Sheila - I'm stunned by your picture...what a glorious rose! Burlington won't ship to me anyway...but I can sure admire from a distance...(we're all used to social distancing. :))