Kinda late to set the prescedent now.

Any project executed on a time-and-materials basis should include all of the invoices for material, direct labor, and subcontracted labor to support each request for payment. If your framing contractor is acting as your general contractor (and his/her state license may or may not allow that) then the obligation falls to them to provide the required documentation.

You will be well served to hire an experienced general contractor when your project scope justifies one. The outcome is much more likely to be a good one than if someone is "acting" as a general contractor.

Sissyphus, I'm really interested in your comment.. Can I ask what the basis is for the opinion? If I agree to pay someone for their time and materials to install a specific light in a specific location, for example, and they install the wrong light in the wrong location, in what universe have I agreed to pay for doing the wrong work?

"That horse is out of the barn after the very first payment. Time and materials means you pay for mistakes and rework hours too."

This is simply false. It is exceedingly rare that you would have to pay for someone's mistakes. If you hired a licensed electrician or someone who represented themselves as competent, they have a duty to complete the work correctly, in a workman like manner.

The only exception that comes to mind is if you hired someone who says they are not an electrician and tells you they don't know how to do the work, but will try for a significant discount.

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There is generally no difference in the duty required from a fixed price, cost plus, or time and materials contract. The particulars of the arrangement will establish who the homeowner can seek recourse against for problems.

It depends on the mistake. If a kitchen designer failed to update the ceiling can light schematic after she specified a pantry cabinet that's now blocking the can, that's the electrician's job to fix and he's getting paid.

First, it doesn't matter if he is a real electrician. If he represents himself as capable of doing the job he is required to do so correctly, in a workman like manner. Period. I know that blaming the homeowner for everything gives people some perverse pleasure, but you can't defraud people. Any assertion otherwise or justification otherwise is just a demonstration that you need to lay off the drama a bit.

Next, my electrician, who does all the work on my rental properties, is time and materials and he is probably the fourth electrician I have used and they all do time and materials. A lot of the electricians in my area bid time and materials for remodels unless you are having them bid jobs after the drywall is off. A fixed price bid is worthless without knowing the conditions.

"But if you’re paying time and materials, and do not demand an accurate accounting from the beginning, you cannot go back and change the rules of engagement now."

This is also completely false, at least in the U.S. In every state in the U.S. anyone working on a time and materials basis is required by law to track time and materials. You can request that entire, or a partial, record at any time during the job and for some time afterwards.

Again, our system tends to frown on fraud and is generally against any tools that would aid one in committing fraud.

@JAB - it is perfectly reasonable to request the breakdown. It is going to cost him some time to produce, which I am sure is annoying.

Here is some advice, if you are going to require him to produce it, then first ask for only the new work. He probably has some leeway to pad the bill, if it is reasonable then accept that, pay, and move on.

If he pads a bit too much, ask for the breakdown for everything. Watch the wiggle as someone who padded only one part of a time and materials contract tries to explain the differences.

ETA: Sorry for the rapid fire posts.

I just. want to add a follow up comment - it raises an issue I have run into on Houzz before. I live in a very very small town in a rural area. The person in question is indeed a licensed electrician. A lot of the assumptions that people make about how relationships with the trades work in big cities and large suburbs etc. just do not apply in a community like mine. (I have an apt in NYC also and can attest that it is a different universe doing any work of any kind). In a tiny rural community, the members of the trades here all know each other and have since they were children. Houses are built without written contracts, etc. Maybe in seeking feedback I should keep in mind that people will assume... just food for thought here!

Best practices for the trades and for project management don't change for rural projects although the pool of available competent contractors typically does.

"In a tiny rural community, the members of the trades here all know each other and have since they were children. Houses are built without written contracts, etc."

Thats exactly why hes asking you to trust him. And hes insulted that you're not.

Everybody wants it both ways.

"I live in a very very small town in a rural area. The person in question is indeed a licensed electrician. A lot of the assumptions that people make about how relationships with the trades work in big cities and large suburbs etc. just do not apply in a community like mine."

We spend most of the year in a town that has a population of about 10,000 and it is the largest city within 75 miles. My experiences are different than yours and I suspect New York City is further from typical metropolitan relationships than your small town is.

I am from a city of a half million people and you couldn't see daylight between the average contractor there and the average contractor here. In my experience they require just as many carrots and just as many sticks. Of course, you get more of both tails of the curve in cities, the really bad and the really great, but it seems to me average contractors in most places act just about the same.

The biggest difference I find between cities and rural areas is prices. People in metropolitan areas often don't understand the quality of inexpensive work in small towns.

I suspect he just doesn't want to do the paperwork.

When you consistently accept rent payments late, it is highly unlikely that a judge will agree when you try to evict tenants for late rent payment. By accepting the late payments regularly, you've changed the terms and conditions of the original lease.

I think a judge may see something similar here. Apparently there was no detailed time and materials records kept or asked for; now suddenly they are.

When you consistently accept rent payments late, it is highly unlikely that a judge will agree when you try to evict tenants for late rent payment. By accepting the late payments regularly, you've changed the terms and conditions of the original lease.

Uhmm... No. I have at times refused further late payments and evicted tenants, even after regularly accepting late payments for a significant period. I have even had tenants use that as a defense and the judge was much crueler to them than she needed to be. The gist of it was, "so you think that someone being nice to you gives you permission to take advantage of them?"

I think a judge may see something similar here. Apparently there was no detailed time and materials records kept or asked for; now suddenly they are.

HUH? Detailed time and materials records are required as a function of the contract. You literally can't bill someone for time and materials without having records of time and materials. If you are just making up a number based on the effort you believe you worked on something then that is a fixed price contract. There is no version of time and materials where records are optional.

ETA: Re evictions - I was just young the first time and moving out of state the last time.

I think you can't make blanket statements. Every town and city has it's own dynamic.

I lived in Southern California where you had the illegal immigrant competition that drove prices for trades down. You had to be careful because you often didn't get good quality work.

Now I live in Pennsylvania Dutch Country. The Amish do most of the trade work here. You can count on every job being done well, you can trust that the pricing is fair, but your not going to get a "deal" or someone undercutting prices.

Not every city is next to the Mexican boarder and not all small towns are Amish so although I have both experiences I doubt that either would be of much help in NYC or some small town in Idaho.

I would be concerned if the town was small enough that all the tradesman know each other. If you get a reputation for being cheap or a hard a** you may have trouble getting someone to your home in the future.

Original poster here. So I’m curious as the comments have drifted. Am I being unfair or a hard a** if I want the bill to be itemized rather than just receiving a global total? My original question was really about someone in the trades who does work in bits and dabs over many weeks and months presenting a total number for labor on a time and materials contract when all parties involved essentially agreed at the time that there had been errors resulting in work needing to be redone. (And just as a p.s., in this case, I outlined my reasons for asking to the electrician. He was indignant but acknowledged that there were “about” eight hours of time “wasted” due to issues. If I hadn’t asked, I guess I just would have paid for that as part of a “global” total.)

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for an itemized cost breakdown--that's how time and materials billing should work. The person to lean on, however, is the person you hired as your "general contractor." They, in turn, should lean on the trades they selected. That's what you pay a general contractor for.

I was hired by a General Contracor to repair a solid surface sill that a sub of his had punched a hole through. There was no matching repair material, so it was my magic or replace all the sills in this high rise condo. The repair was invisible, but all I got for my time and material was 2/3 of my bill in a check and a lot of bitching about how I was taking advantage of his wealthy client.

I sent his check back.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC,

And how exactly does your magical sill repair relate to the OP's question about a cost breakdown for the electrical work?

Both were time and material jobs.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC,

I'd catalog your post about your marvelous magical counter repair in the category of self aggrandizement. It's not all that germane to the OP's question about a detailed invoice for a time and material job.

I am not really sure how this has become a thing, but here we go...

Generally, for a time and materials contract you can charge practically any rate so long as it is known up-front and there is no fraud or capacity issues involved. You can say to someone, "I normally charge $50 per hour, but I don't like you so I am going to charge you $250 per hour." So you can make a mint by just charging a lot per hour.

However, you generally can't make a mint by just taking your time. While you can charge about any agreed upon amount per hour, you can't take an unreasonable amount of time to complete a job. Now, there is some wiggle room in reasonable, but you generally have to complete your work in approximately the same amount of time that someone else with similar skills would take. If you are of singular skill, then you really have two protections against this, (1) you can disclaim it in the contract and note that you typically take longer or (2) you can use a different type of contract.

Reasonableness of time is typically determined by industry professionals, so a contractor saying you took too long is really six to five and pick 'em. A contractor saying you charge too much an hour is probably not in a strong position.

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This really has to do with the doctrine of meeting of the minds.

@JAB - You are not wrong asking for clarification on any bill, or questioning when something seems outside the expected parameters.

I always try to approach issues like this with curiosity rather than accusation.

Living in a small town means that everyone knows everyone else's business. These guys work together and talk about clients and other tradesmen. They know who is good and who is a pain. Again both clients and other tradesmen. If you want the best plumber ask an electrician who he uses. If you have been a good person to work with he will refer you to someone he likes. If you have been a PITA he won't send his friends your way - he'll give you a name of someone who deserves your wrath.

I ran a business in a big city, but it was a small industry. When I had negative customers I would refer them to my competition. "I understand that your not happy with the service we provided. XYZ offers the same services we offer, but you may be happier with him. His phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx."

It was so much easier than trying to make an unhappy person happy.

"I'd catalog your post about your marvelous magical counter repair in the category of self aggrandizement. It's not all that germane to the OP's question about a detailed invoice for a time and material job."

And Charles, we are all so very grateful for your assessment as to the value and relevance of my participation here.

Am I being unfair or a hard a** if I want the bill to be itemized rather than just receiving a global total?

I suspect the answer to this question lies in your definition of itemized. It seems completely reasonable to ask for an accounting of the time spent doing billable work versus the time spent doing unbillable repairs, as well as a listing of the job items and the material costs you were billed for.

My original question was really about someone in the trades who does work in bits and dabs over many weeks and months presenting a total number for labor on a time and materials contract when all parties involved essentially agreed at the time that there had been errors resulting in work needing to be redone. (And just as a p.s., in this case, I outlined my reasons for asking to the electrician. He was indignant but acknowledged that there were “about” eight hours of time “wasted” due to issues. If I hadn’t asked, I guess I just would have paid for that as part of a “global” total.)

Yes, you probably would have and most people probably do.

The carpenter who acted as our quasi “GC”....

If you are paying the carpenter to be the GC then the elelctrician is his problem. If you are not paying for a GC then you are the GC.

You didn't require timesheet on previous payouts, and the electrican likely doesn't have this documentation. You have pushed back on the electrician, and now probably need to let it go.