WOW!!!!!!!!!

That’s what I said. Three under 3

Jen, I was going to bring more seed to you. I just cleaned out and know you're wanting to grow everything this year. :D

I just got caught up reading y'all's posts. Seems like everyone had a good Christmas whether it was quiet or rambunctious...or full or exploring.

Ours was good too. It's different now. I was fully prepared, but there were times that felt empty. Christmas to me is all of December.

I hate that Magic 104.1 just stops playing Christmas music suddenly at midnight, though. I also don't like that they start playing it the second week of November. My thought....maybe every 6 songs is a Christmas song starting the second week of November and then the day after, BAM! All Christmas, all day. And wean us off by not going cold turkey at midnight. Go back to every few songs until we're weaned.

Also, their choice of songs weren't as varied as normal. There's several favorites that I heard not even once. I do have a Spotify playlist for Christmas, though.

Anyway....

I received a 2 gallon Ohio Stoneware crock with weights and a lid from my Mom. I just pulled some cabbage out of the garden and will hopefully try to make some kraut this week. I may try some pickles afterwards with store bought cukes.

Oh, and Amy, someone had asked about Persian cukes on FB. Thanks for your reply. I've been looking too, so it was helpful to me.

I went through seeds too. And have a list of what I was to grow. A list of what I have and a list of what I need to purchase.

Remember when an onion talk thread was the first real garden specific thread each year? And afterwards Dawn would start a "tomato list for the year"?

My lists are small this year and that's how I want it. I need to get a grip on things and get organized and plant what I can care for. Last year was hard. I'm pretty sure we've had two rains of an inch+ only twice since the first week of June. (Places around me received more, but our specific little area was left out very often.)

I watered everything yesterday--flowerbeds, trees, empty beds. Rick watered the SG. We have cracks in our ground too, Moni.

Ethan left for Portland yesterday so the house is quiet. Not that he's a loud person. I believe Stella will be coming back with him for a week or so.

I'm working today and then off for the rest of the week. I'm about to close it up here in a few minutes and head home. Need to do a bit of grocery shopping tonight. And I think my chickens have worms, so need to find a dewormer. This is a first for my chickens.

That's AWESOME Kim. Congrats!

Amy I do hike at Wichita Mountains... love it. Great scenery. Thought of it... but like to explore new. :)

Congrats, Kim!

and happy birthday!

Jennifer, at one time you expressed an interest in some of my projects, I will try to post some pictures. Because I dont know how to make a link, or anything else I will try to cut the size of the post down.

I started out looking for a cow and calf that were left in the pasture because they were too wild to get into the loading pen.

I found 3 of the 4 donkeys eating brush on a small island in the creek. This is one area where I had dozer work done. and up stream so I could drive my pickup across. You can see that it did not stay that way.

I had picked turnip greens to feed to the cow and calf if I found them. I had not seem the cow or calf so I fed the greens to the donkeys.

I will try to post these two pictures and see how it goes.

I will try again.

Jack is mad because the girls wont let him have any greens, but, I, like him, know

better than to fool with a female eating turnip greens.

I goofed with the picture, but afraid to try to fix it.

Anyway, this is a picture where a wet-weather creek runs into the larger creek. This also the second place I can get the smaller tractor into a gravel bar to load gravel for use for other areas on the property.

I will try to post again.

So far so good. I will try again.

This is a low area that is fed by a wet-weather creek and an artesian well. I have sketched out plans for my daughter to use this area to make a large pond or small lake. the creek is off to the left of the picture. Her house is to be to the right, or lift of this picture, if she builds to the left, she will have to use the railroad bed for a driveway. The picture of the railroad bed and where the spillway will be did not take. There was something red shown on the camera screen, my guess is that it was roo dark. The trees along the railway bed have grown to form a tunnel, and is sorta dark if the sun is not shinning.

I got the pictures out of order. This is the dam/bridge I made so I could cross this wet-weather creek to get to the southwest pasture with out getting on the highway. The southwest pasture had quite a bit of work done to it. I had brush and timber pushed out, and a long ditch filled in. Then I dug out all the rock I could find to use to build this dam, and start filling in this wet=weather creek down stream

This is my pond. I found the cow and calf in a low area that I left for cover for the cattle and wildlife.

I love your property, Larry! It's SO lovely.

I'm out-of-my-mind excited about the news, Kim. Unbelievable! If it were me, I'd think I died and went to heaven. . . no matter what daughter thinks! LOL

I loved the photos, as always, Larry.

And I'm super sleepy so am going to pick this up tomorrow.

Larry your property is so beautiful. ………..
Nancy I kept hugging them and saying congratulations to me!!!!!!

Kim, congratulations to you. I have 2 adopted children. I had more fun with the adopted kids, not because they were better kids, but I was a better father when I got older. I grew to thank more about the kids and less about the things I wanted.

Thanks everyone about the comments on the place. I have so much I want to do, but my body is about worn out, but the place does look a lot better now than when I got it.

If y'all want to see more of the thing I try to do, I dont mind posting pictures, but I am not good at it.

I always love seeing pics of people's property. Gives me ideas for myself.

Danny, I've got some I'll do germination tests on, but some packs I got in trades and don't have enough to test and plant. But most of those will be wintersown, so I don't have to worry much about space for them. But i still have a ridiculous number to plant, assuming I plant all of these. Just finished sortng the tomatoes and, well, I guess it's a good thing we have 5 acres lol. I might need it all!

Congrats Kim! 3 at a time is a handful, especially if you do a "camp grammy" & take them all at once. But it's also nice to have them so close in age, they can grow up together.

Yep, I've been there...oh there are exactly 8 seeds...well we wish for the best (lol).

Maybe you can do what I did once, germination test closer to planting time. If they germinate, transplant into a seedling pot/flat. The testing 'equipment' takes up less space and maybe trouble than full out planting. Just an idea that *could* help (or not).

Three children...reminds me of one set of identical twins that I had spend the night when I was in 2nd grade (I think). They were a mess, one distracted my parents, while the other got into mischief. Sorta like some of those movies. Things that I remember happening, are (dad ran a station at the time) pumping gasoline all over the ground, breaking a car horn with screwdrivers, shooting me with a bow and arrow (pain but probably not injury). I was told never again by my parents.

Then there's the flip side of my cousins. The younger of we three, were always excluded and trailing behind the two of us older ones. In three, it seems there's always one on the outside. The younger cousin came about two weeks ago for the first time in twenty years (they live in Washington) and apparently didn't even want to meet me. So...your mileage may vary.

My stepdad was twin, the stories I heard about those boys. There were 5 boys in the family, two sets of twins and an older brother. The story I liked the best is one would miss school on test day, then they would switch places the next day and the one twin would take the test again for his brother. I knew them for 65 years, and if I only saw one of them at a time it was hard for me to tell them apart. As they got older my stepdad wore his hair shorter, and was a little smaller.

Jen
I feel so great getting all old seeds out to make way for new. I have huge pile. I had no clue I had that many. Mostly flowers so far. This is fun project

LOL at Kim

Are you laughing at me or with me. lol 😂

Both,

We got a rain this morning, not a lot, but this time of the year a little rain will go farther. The sun has come out and it is 51 degrees now, but is supposed to get cold about Sat. or Sun.

Just not much going on garden wise. All the cool stuff has slowed, or stopped growing, and the coming cold weather may shut it down to early spring. Most of the turnips in my house garden, and neighbor has sold most of the market size turnips out of the wildlife garden. I have had the electric fence shut off in the wildlife garden, so it is broken and lying on the ground in many spots, but will take little to repair it.

I still have not sorted out my seeds. I don't know why I can't make myself get around and do that.

Larry because it’s boring. I have been working on mine for weeks. On and off. With Jens great idea I got motivated. Now the problem is I need at one acre to plant all these old seeds

I don't (didn't)have near as many seeds as Kim and Jen, but feel good that I got rid of a lot of them (sorry, Jen, I dumped them at your house today. lol!)

I've seen Kim and Jen's seed collections. Impressive.

My seeds feel tidy now.

Tidy should be my word for the year, but I chose clarity. In a strange way...those two words could be related.

Jen's property is so nice. SO much potential. Congrats, Jen!

We dropped off a seed starter box thing today and, although Jen was at work, I was able to glance around her new property.

It's only a little over a half hour between our homes. It was a lovely drive. Rolling hills, lots of trees, little creeks. Some of those pine trees reminded me of Broken Bow! They were that tall.

I'm (we're) in that weird limbo state between Christmas and Epiphany.

Well, just to keep you current, we have two more days before 2022 roars or limps in (not sure which). Winterize your water outlets, bring in any pots still outside that can't take 10F, prepare for possible icing, shop for things you might need, etc.

I *still* haven't gotten the columbine seeds planted. I've had some miserableness with my illness and just frankly a bit lazy too. I did tell myself this morning that since I'm dealing with stratification, I should be them planted between now and Jan 1st so I can keep in mind easily how long they've been treated.

I have left my meyers lemon on the limb, and still haven't decided exactly what to do with my one homegrown lemon. I think (for lack of better ideas), I may lemonade it and then grind zest for use in cookies or something later. I want to use as much of it as I possible can. Any idea if I can just juice it and throw the remainder into the blender and consider that ALL zest? or will it be too bitter?

LOL, Danny,

throw the remainder into the blender and consider that ALL zest?

I really think, you should zest before cutting it open to use the juice!

All, here is a good explanation and visual of a frost free faucet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCGUjuNGd8Q

How about this? https://www.bonappetit.com/story/juiced-lemon-puree

WOW, that's using the WHOLE lemon. Thanks for sharing.

Well, after all these years (6?) and I have a lemon..must use it all...and lemon curd IS kinda good. Meyers are an orange x lemon cross, so a bit sweeter than a pure lemon, so this might be a good fit.

Added: I did it..I finally put the moistened columbine seeds in the fridge for their three week vacation.

I also cut a beef tongue in 1/2 and put half in the pressure cooker. I plan on slicing it and grilling it after that (apparently crispys up nicely because of fat content). Never tried that. Boy those things are getting expensive, I paid $25 for a 4 lb tongue.

Danny I just learned to appreciate tongue. My brother paid 50. I got him connected to my meat supplier. I think we pay $5 per pound

Yeah, your price is more what I was expecting. After pressure cooking it, I sliced and grilled for crispy outside...was delicious (tongue sandwich on texas toast with spicy mustard)

We eat it shredded in tacos with cilantro

I've nothing to add to a rational or reasonable gardening discussion. . . but can talk about other stuff.

I finally grew columbines a year ago (2 yrs ago?), Danny, having finally gotten up the energy to stratify them. I planted probably 8 of more of them right outside the front of the house in that house-long bed. They were very puny for the most part last summer, cept for a couple. Kinda prima donnas.

Okay, I'd be willing to try tongue, but can you tell me what the texture is? It seems awfully expensive in the event I don't like it. What does it taste like??

Danny, did you see my FB post on a pie made with lemons that were just all food processed, the entire things? I think I'll try it.

My seeds aren't way out of order, shouldn't take much to organize them. MY problem is all my beds with Bermuda and weeds, and praying for the energy and strength to get them cleaned out.

I AM excited that I have my onions ordered. As I am remembering, they should be shipped first of February or so. HJ, I DO remember our talks in the past, and Dawn sharing her tomatoes list. I realize I got caught up in the excitement. This year, I plant on planting only 3 varieties and a couple peppers. Lots more greens, cabbage. Garlic's looking good. My focus this year will be to get all my shrubs planted in their forever homes. I have SO many planted in temporary places--raised beds, big mineral tubs.

Hugs to all.

It tastes like the perfect roast beef (would you expect it to taste like alligator?). It slices perfectly (not shredding like roast beef). I especially liked the crispy finish that I got from grilling the sliced meat, but I had no problems sneaking a bit while cutting it before grilling either. It looks much prettier grilled too *lol*.

No, I haven't Nancy..you know FB is weird and I might never see it, or it might be in five weeks ;) I'll look at your profile and see if I can see it (probably).

Yes, my columbine tale is kinda like yours. The ones I have blooming now were started five or six years ago. They were in pots for at least a year, and they took probably another year to come into first bloom. I hadn't grown columbines for quite some time, but I seemed to remember them being a BIT more vigorous than this, but maybe it's just getting old and forgetful. On the positive side, they are all still alive. On the negative (maybe?) they haven't reseeded at all, and columbines are supposedly notorious for this. Though this may all be explained that the mix I seeded was from Plant World Seed and is the english granny's bonnet variety (A. vulgaris), I think what I grew before was probably McKana's (which is a hybrid and maybe more vigorous?). I don't know if these columbine started yesterday will bloom in 2023 or not...I just hope they grow and live. I like the native columbine (A canadensis) but it's terrible for columbine miners which make the foliage all ugly...plus it died out on me (*lol*), they demand moisture but require good drainage (not me).

After being horribly ill Monday? or Tuesday?, I'm slightly better again. I dunno if I will feel I can attend something with people (Wild Ones) on Jan 6th or not. I have my good and bad days, I just hope it moves on out soon.

I have been a little under the weather also, heart misbehaving. I called Dr. last night, he said he would be by this morning. He said he would be coming by my house on the way to something else, must be on vacation.

I think we are to get weather down to 20 degrees, may be a little colder here. I often get about 5 degrees colder here that what is recorded in Ft. Smith.

I plan on cutting my greens down if it cold, and letting them re-grow.

Congratulations Kim! I personally can't imagine it. I always said I wanted older kid out of diapers before the next came along. On the other hand I could see how kids closer in age bonded and played together.

My dad was a twin. My grandma raised 5 kids, in Minnesota, without running water. My dad's twin and another sister became nurses because he was always getting hurt.

Our 15 month old had his check up yesterday. 99th percentile on height and weight. The doctor was impressed with his vocabulary and motor skills.

H/J, did you happen to see the you tube link to Kings College choir I put in FB? I miss the hymns I remember from childhood, and this choir sings them. I however, Don't want to hear Christmas songs until about Christmas eve. (I can't sit comfortably in church any more to go there.)

Dawn was an enabler when it came to tomatoes. Well all the things really.

Larry I love your pictures especially donkeys and cattle.

The idea of tongue kind of creeps me out. I don't know why it's worse than calf fries. Ron says he's eaten it, but apparently he didn't like it enough to buy it. Well probably it's not sold in grocery stores, more of a butcher type item?

Danny, I wish you'd go to the doctor! I'm glad the doctor came to you Larry.

Ron's going to cut and freeze broccoli and collards today and cover the rest with frost blankets. Of course the wind is an issue, and the dog, who ,might stay out of a bed, but won't leave the blanket alone.

I didn't go to Bartlesville. My sister's knee was hurting her too bad to walk. :(

Happy New Year to you all.

Well other than that ONE day, it didn't seem like much of an issue...and Moni weathered hers (she started about 2 weeks ahead of me though). And It seems just like what I had in Feb 2020, though not as awful so far.

I don't know why it would creep you out..it's just another piece of a cow, it happens to be a smooth muscle (like the heart) and unlike the striated muscle fiber we usually eat, but other than that..it's cow tissue just like the rest of the cow.

Amy, the doc. did not come by, but I had told him what I planned to do, and what I do when my heart starts messing up, he seemed happy with that, but thinks I need a pacemaker.

I use aluterol and caffeine to keep my pulse up above 40, and watch the systolic pressure.

I can get out and putter around like that and feel pretty good. I go in soon to wear a Holter

monitor, had EKG on the 20th, this has been done about one time a year. I have different problems and the DRs. don't seem to know the best thing to do.

One of my doctors just called and said that he would be over as soon an he can take a shower, had car problems. I feel fine now, but glad doc. is coming over, I live about 2 miles from him.

I think it is sad that everyone in the world can get as good of medical care as I do.

Well, folks, I am sick AGAIN! But not sure about covid.... however, I can smell my sourdough. Started on Tuesday after my last ride... didn't feel great while working in the yard on Wednesday, but spent a lot of time on Thursday hunting for a place that would truly give me a covid test, it came back negative. I wanted to assure my friend Michele, since I visited her on Sunday... and then on Wednesday I was at my arthritis doc... such a waste of time... will never go back there for sure..

and today spend a lot of time in bed. I hated that... yesterday and today would have been another day to ride my bike before the new year. I just tallied my rides for the year, came to 2526 miles. That must have been my goal? LOL

I have been going through the pictures I snapped since seed starting, and filled in the blanks in my gardening journal. I am all caught up.

Will set my seed shelf up next week sometime, and then need to find a new place to store the rest of my sweet potatoes... since the seeds need warmth, and the tators not.

Danny, hurry up and get over your crud... and I will try to combat mine again.

Nancy and Amy, I ate tongue a lot growing up, and can report, it's delishes depending on who does and how it is fixed.

I think, I need some more over the counter vitamin C(hocolate). LOL

Moni

Here's to a 2022 that's full of love, laughter, and peace for you all.

I don't think I'll try to save anything with these cold temperatures moving in. Low teens for too many upcoming evenings. I'd say winter is deciding to show up.

Danny, Moni, and Larry, I hope you will feel better soon.

And thanks for your words on tongue, D and M. I will for sure try it soon. Sounds YUMMY!

Friends, I hope you feel better soon. Sorry you're not well.

Interesting lemon stuff. Did anyone see the post on Facebook...(maybe Creative Gardening?) of the people who have several citrus trees in Connecticut, I think it was. Crazy amount of produce. I guess they keep them in their garage during the winter.

The tongue freaks me out a little too, Amy. I do think using the entire animal is right and good, if you're going to eat an animal....but the tongue does bother me too. Not sure why.

Amy, I'll go look for the link. Facebook is weird. I never see Nancy's posts unless I go to her profile. I do see yours most of the time.

Garden stuff.

It's raining! True rain. It's been since October. I don't think we'll get much, but super happy we're getting something.

I did water the hoop house bed today. Put some mulch on the garlic. Pulled out a few cabbage heads.

Rick came out and did some work too. Closed up the hoops for one. Harvested some broccoli. And transplanted brussels sprouts into buckets and then put those buckets in the hoop house. We covered the raised bed and those brussels with frost cloth.

I cleaned up the droppings boards and found the waterer warmer. Luckily it's still working. It's ready to go tomorrow.

I still need to figure out the deworming thing for the chickens. There's not a straight forward answer. And the chickens seem fine and healthy. But, I saw worms.

Aphids! Aphids and cabbage loopers! Hopefully the cold that's coming in will kill them. Can you believe we still have them in December?

I may have to resort to a chemical if things don't get better. I spent waaaay too much time cleaning aphids off of plants last summer. And way too much time dealing with chicks. I want to do neither of those this year. Thing is, I have ladybugs of all sorts. And ladybug larvae. They were everywhere. I even saw a 4 spotted ladybug this afternoon. Anyway, I don't want to spend all my gardening time cleaning off aphids. In fact, I put the packets of sugar and snow peas away. Nope. Not doing it this year.

My list for the Kitchen Garden and Charlotte's Garden is done. Rick sent the list for the Survivalist Garden. I'll buy Jet Setter for diced tomatoes and Heidi for sauce. Those things will go into the Survivalist Garden. I'll also buy the black bean seed. Rick has the rest of it. Oh, maybe I'll get some Beck's Big Buck okra seed too for the SG.

I've spent a few days cleaning up the house. Cleaning out closets and pantries. Taking things to donation. I'm not done yet, but getting there. It feels so good to clean out the old to make room for the new. Of course, some of the old must stay.

1/2 inch of rain! WOO HOO! :)

but we also lost power twice during the night, and I am still under the weather.

Moni

I feel great, my heart is acting nice, we got a nice rain, and I have been out getting a bale of hay from the wild life garden, and pushing a large pile of mulch from the edge of the north garden out into the pasture. I doubt that the cow, calf, and donkeys will find much to eat in the mulch, but the hay looks pretty good. I also bought two bags of range cubes to feed to the live stock. The stock does not belong to me, but the guy leasing the place has cut the pasture so low, and then grazed it down almost to the dirt. I dont think I am going to lease the pasture out anymore, its too hard on the land to strip it like he does.

I tried to go check on the live stock, but the creeks were to high to cross.

It this year keeps going like the first 11 hours, I think I will like 2022.

Jennifer, I think my FB link was only for one carol. Here's a link to an hours worth. https://youtu.be/zieoBKkN9qE

Isn't it pumpkin seeds that deworm chickens? I know there's medicine but for some reason pumpkin seeds stick in my mind.

Larry, glad you're feeling better. Hoping Danny and Moni are on the mend.

We were going to cook a big roast in the instant pot yesterday, but found we were missing accessories to do it. So we had vietnamese for dinner. I had phò and Ron had fried rice and a curry. (May not be vietnamese). The roast is in the oven now. We have the grain grinder but not the grain. It was 5 years ago that I made Ezekiel bread, so I'm hazy about where I got the ingredients. May have been whole foods.

We got 1/2 inch of rain, too.

Nancy, did I see where you'd been to the sausage place/meat market? Did you know Perry's closed? I'm so sad, Perry's meat market and Margaret's restaurant are gone.

Happy New Year my friends.

Not mending, at best slipping and sliding back and forth sideways.

Amy, I think you're right about pumpkin seeds.

A lot of things are gone (from 2020 on), and I expect more to go.

Moni, I'm sorry you're still feeling bad. But am happy you got rain too! We have snow now...barely though. And it's so cold!

Larry, glad you're feeling well. I hope 2022 is good to you.

Amy, there's so much conflicting info with deworming chickens! You're right about the pumpkin seeds. There's also cayenne powder and DE. My chickens have had several pumpkin seeds over the past two month from all the leftover fall decorations. I think I would like to use a medicine and then start using the more natural methods as a preventative. Just need to figure out the medicine part.

I eat Ezekiel bread often, but the store bought one. Do you like your homemade Ezekiel bread? Is it similar to the store bought one?

I would like to try keeping a dry sourdough starter. Anyone have experience with that? I am having a hard enough time keeping up with kombucha.

BUT, I've been yammering on about simplifying my life and getting organized...so maybe it's possible?

The tree is down and put away.

It is a process. We have keepsake ornaments and each one has its own box. The rest of the house is "decorated" but it's not overly so. I just need to figure out what to keep. I like to keep some of the wintery things out in January. The little lit trees and wreaths. I change out the "fluff" on the wreaths to a simple sprig for January. And I like to leave the pinecones in the apothecary jars. I'll put away the reindeer and Baby Jesus set. And the December bath and dish towels.

The battery candles and little strands of lights in the lanterns will stay until the batteries die. At that point it will be lighter for longer and I'll be outside more. It's all a wheel of seasons.

Fun day of cooking. Black-eyed peas with peppers, onions, and garlic. I threw in some bacon for Tom. Fried okra from the 2020 garden. Still very tasty. The date on it was September 1, 2020...so 16 months old. I made another one of those kale salads. Tom doesn't really like it much, but I'll eat the leftovers for a couple of days. Super fun to use garden food.

Made applesauce brownies for Tom. Not gardeny.

The chicken waterer was holding strong until the temperature dropped to about 20. I'll be hauling water out in a bit...and in the morning. I have to work in the morning.

Busy busy day. I think I'll take a nap. haha.

26 degrees?? What the! There was 1 1/4" of rain in the rain gauge, and it's a wonder the thing didn't break. It was iced over, but thankfully I got it emptied. This morning when I got up at 6:15, I thought we were going to be washed away in a mighty flood. WOW was it coming down hard.

I can't fathom why some of that rain didn't turn to snow--but it didn't.

Amy, yes, I did mention going to Siegi's Sausage Factory--it's been a couple months ago now. Yes, I read about Perry's. Sad. And Margaret's. You'll have to let us know what the new owners of Margaret's are going to do food-wise. Meantime, in order to do our part to see that Siegi's doesn't close, I think we'll go there next time we're in Broken Arrow; GDW has doc appt on Jan 11, and will be having the other carotid artery taken care of shortly after that.

Aha!! We're having the cabbage "steaks" tonight, along with ham steak. We're both excited.

And it's later than I thought, so I am going to sign off for now. Blessings to you all in 2022.

(The cabbage steaks were a joke. HORRIBLE recipe. Further, neither of us liked the flavor of roasted cabbage. )

I forgot about New Years day, and eating blackeyed peas and hog jowl. We did have purple hulled peas though, so maybe we will have a little luck this year.

Since I've been sick, I ate the last of the grilled tongue on NYD and later had a bowl of cream of chicken and mushroom soup. I didn't even THINK about peas and hog jowls till I got the munchies about 3 pm yesterday (and made a quick run to the nearby grocery store and saw hog jowls in the meat section).

Oh well, 2022 can't be worse than 2021 (surely?, hopefully?).

Whether it's weather, the supplements I started 1/31, or the fact that I usually start taking something seriously just about the time it starts getting better, I'm doing well this morning. This stuff has been slippery and slidy the whole way though, who knows what tomorrow or even later today will bring. Supplement wise, I'm hitting B complex, C, zinc, elderberry, and echinacea for immune boosters. Oh, and i learned that taking pills with cocoa is bad because you don't just chug it and move the pills along. I got frustrated enough to bite into the echinacea complex pill, oh my bitterness that lasted for like 30 minutes :(