The moment I saw BenT's Lavender Crush I fell in love with it. But sadly, it's not available in the EU.

My replacement is Huddersfield Choral Society. Same purple/silver reverse color scheme, big blooms and strong spicy lemon and rose scent. And HCS is a 4ft shrub, whereas LC is taller, and likes to climb, so HCS is a better fit for my garden anyway.

But honestly, if I ever found LC, I'd absolutely buy it anyway.

Good thread, Carol, and I at least haven't noticed you posting here recently, so, good to see you.

Yours sounds like a great strategy; my own approach is different. My garden being rather bigger than a breadbox, I don't have your space concerns. For a good many years now I've been busy with macro-gardening, meaning getting the basic structure of the garden in place, which means a lot of boring digging and planting basic shrubs and trees, and what you might call micro-gardening, planting little plants for close viewing, but not going for unusual varieties (it's spring, and I've had ordinary daffodils and woodland flowers on my mind for weeks now). Roses have taken a back seat for some time. (I did order fourteen roses last winter, some of them new kinds, just in time for the worst drought in sixty years. Hurray.)

Well. Actually to turn to your thread topic, where I found a rose that just won't grow for me, my strategy has been to choose not to grow that rose or similar kinds, and concentrate instead on classes that do well. Multifloras are the great example. They don't want to grow for me, for the most part, so I've mostly given up on them....with exceptions, if a kind is in a rare spot where it's actually happy--'Goldfinch' in the hedge down in the shade garden; 'Blush Rambler' stoutly clinging to life beside the Allée--or which I terribly want, meaning mostly the Pemberton Hybrid Musks. I did some serious digging last winter for these last, and hope they may finally thrive. On the other hand, Hybrid Damasks have a pretty good record here. So do Gallicas and the other once-flowering roses of European origin. Ayrshire ramblers are fine, and the Wichuriana ramblers are pretty good, especially if they get decent holes.

I think the difference is that you're trying to achieve a certain look and certain qualities, and searching for roses that will accomplish that; I look for what I can grow in my garden, which like every garden is blessed and cursed with its peculiar weather and soil, and see where those roses lead me. The limits of the gardening conditions help determine the character of the garden (though so does an awful of digging and amending: I want to grow Teas).

I'm thinking this out as I go along. Actually, I do my own substituting. We don't have the rain for subtropical kinds of plants, but I was noticing yesterday what a tropical-gorge look my best plant of Helleborus viridis had, growing down in shady moss-covered scree and displaying its luxuriant large foliage and blooms. The acanthus, too, is putting on quite a foliage show.

No one--well, very few gardeners--can grow everything. Every single one of us wants to grow plants our conditions won't allow us to cultivate. I have finally and definitively given up on magnolias. I think. On the other hand I want to try (again) checker tree, Sorbus torminalis, and perhaps attempt hophornbeam, Ostrya carpinifolia. Both of these are native but don't grow just anywhere; they're handsome trees, in an unshowy fashion, when well cultivated. One of the most beautiful trees I ever saw was a shapely hophornbeam covered in catkins, spotted in a wood by the paved road that runs along the ridge above the farm. Not showy like a magnolia, but how lovely it was.

This is not too well thought out, but I'm offering it for what it's worth (perhaps not much).

I tried (many, many times) to succeed with Angel Face, which was my mom’s favorite rose.

New Jersey is a far cry from San Diego.

Plum Perfect now fills the spot. The look, but not the fragrance.

Here ( I hope) is the picture of blooms of Sombreuil (aka Colonial White) that I tried to post yesterday. Of course, they are not identical to Mme Hardy blooms, but they give me the same feeling.

Jackie

OK, now I am really annoyed - failed again.

Mischievous Magpie - thanks for the comment about "indeterminant" - growing as long as there is space" is EXACTLY what my S was doing! Re your lament about wanting a "house eater" rose in zone 5 - if you are willing to have a once bloomer (I love all of my once bloomers!), someone has recommended Baltimore Belle. The photos of it on HMF are to die for, and HMF says it is cold hardy to zone 4 - just a thought.

Jackie

@jacqueline9CA I consider Baltimore Belle every year! I'm always looking at ramblers and wondering how they would do here. Maybe one day I'll go for it. For now, I'm hoping my John Cabot eats the wall by my front door. It grew 5 feet in its first year and retained all of it over winter so I'm hopeful at least.

I was supposed to get Baltimore Belle last year from High Coutry but they accidentally sent Ballerina. BB should be coming tbis spring, fingers crossed. I can’t wait to see her-for now my plan is to grow her through a butterfly bush next to erinnerung an brod that I want to cover a chopped down old maple-ugh, spring is soooo close!

I am so eager to see my Er. an Brod hopefully bloom this year! Only 2.5 months to go over here... Lol. Still seems far away for me. I've been jealous lately of everyone in the warmer zones enjoying their blooms.

Thank you for this thread and great suggestions for the small gardener.

I am so glad you are all enjoying this thread! I’ve been intending to start a post like this for a long time. I have this forum to thank for my wonderful substitution roses and my eventual deep satisfaction with them, so hopefully the info and experiences shared on this thread will become resources for others seeking answers to their rose dilemmas. Between the lot of us, we must surely have solutions to just about every gardening problem and frustration.

It does seem that many of us have surrendered unattainable rose fantasies along the way (wrong roses, wrong places), accepted the inevitable and adapted our gardens and desires to best roses for our conditions = lovelier, more fulfilling outcomes. Reading about your swaps and suggestions—roses and other plants—is very informative and a wise life lesson. So often I have thought that I must have one particular rose (or plant) when another becomes equally satisfying once I open my eyes and nose to its best features. And, honestly, one awe inspiring bloom of ‘Gloire de Dijon’ amongst the hot mess of fails in my climate hardly weighs in at all against the gazillions of exquisitely bulletproof ‘Marianne’ blooms each year.

@Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 thank you for your warm welcome back! I have to step away from the forum off and on to tend to things on the home front, but I’ll always be back ASAP. You and all on this forum are the most wonderful human beings and delightfully kindred spirits! The conversations here are like nothing else. I have bookmarked your recent post to read and reply. I savor your posts like good books! I need to look up checker trees and hop hornbeams….

@monarda_gw Small gardens unite! :-)

@jacqueline9CA I never realized what a good sub Sombreuil is for Madame Hardy. Your blooms are picture perfect! With the plus of remontancy.

Carol

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)

“Only 2.5 months”—Ha, ha. That sounds like me when I lived in Minneapolis!

Houseaters: I think Rosa alba ’Semi Plena’ could be coaxed to eat at least part of your house…in time. HMF says it’s hardy down to 3b, and I‘ve seen a picture of ’Semi Plena’ devouring the side of a house in Sweden. Maybe the fuller bloomed ‘Maxima’ would also reach voracious proportions? Carol

@portlandmysteryrose Oh thanks for the tip! If my Mme. Plantier and GMB get as big as I'm hoping they'll get, I'd definitely be open to buying another alba (or two, or...) . I'll be watching them closely with excitement!

Since Chartreuse de Parme and Chandos Beauty are so hard to find can anyone think of a substitute for them?

Jacqueline - your rose pictures were worth the wait. :) :) Soooo beautiful!!

Oursteelers - oh, I wish to get another Chartreuse de Parme...mine died. Fabulous, fabulous rose that I had for quite a few years. I can't think of anything similar. Chandos Beauty can be had from Hortico.

Big purple and Wise Portia are a good subs. for Chartreuse de Parme. Both lived for 8 years as own-roots in my alkaline & rock-hard clay. Below is Big Purple in my zone 5a garden. 1st pic. was taken late fall in October.

Betty White is a good sub. for Chandos Beauty. Rose parks' Betty White are over 5 feet (grafted on Dr.Huey), but my own-root Betty White was less than 2 feet. Betty White survived many winters until it died from winter of no snow and spring drought. The problem with Betty White: blooms get brownish with high potassium fertilizer. The scent is #1 in both rose parks here, very healthy in my dense & alkaline clay. Below upper pink is Evelyn, and less petals is Betty White:

Below 4 pinks are Betty White:

Below is Betty White, only 2 feet tall as own-root with super healthy & glossy foliage. Root was VERY DEEP, way longer than 1 foot when I dug it up. It survived many zone 5a winters.

Thank you got the info Straw!

Straw - I don't think I've ever seen such a beautiful Big Purple!!! Your picture does it justice as a replacement for Chartreuse de Parme!! My goodness...your Betty Whites are amazing!! I gave mine away to a friend many years ago, because the blooms always had brown edges. She didn't mind that. Sure was a great plant otherwise.

Thank you all for your sub lists, comments and beautiful photos! Keep ’em coming!!

I’ll attach some pictures as soon as I get a skinny minute. I made this post while Houzz images were down, so I couldn’t attach any pics at the time.

Carol

Purple skyliner is also a good subsitute for Veilchenblau.

I'm trying own root Spanish Beauty (Mme Gregoire Staechlin) for Belle Portugaise here but SB does not grow well either here. I might try to give fish fertilizer tonics this Spring and Summer in an attempt to get it to grow.

@portlandmysteryrose Do you grow Belle Isis?

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) I don’t currently grow Belle Isis, but I do grow Duchesse de Montebello.

@portlandmysteryrose how do you like DdM?

Magpie, everyone loves DdM.

Oh okay 😅

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR Ha, ha! Well said.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) I find DdM to be one of the best Gallicas! An all around a great rose. Healthy, really nice shrub form, gorgeous, very fragrant. DdM is Allegra’s parent.

DdM

DdM and Ebb Tide

Bergen, I don't think us rose people are looking for plants to substitute for roses! Because there are none.😉

I found Bergen's comment strangely random.

It appears to be a furniture/design firm looking for customers on Houzz -

Click on the little flag on the bottom right of the comment to report it. SPAM is the reason I provided. It removed it from my feed.

Ha, ha. Dahlias. It looks like SPAM, It reads like SPAM,….flagged. Gone. Carol

I've tried to grow Madame Isaac Pereire 4 times but she has never liked my garden. It could have been the locations that I chose for her. The first time she grew fantastically, but the blooms fried as soon as they opened. The second time, in a more sheltered spot, she didn't want to grow, and eventually died. The third and fourth times, in my new garden, she also didn't want to grow. I grow Bishop's Castle now, which isn't really the same, but has the long canes, strong fragrance, and old fashioned looking blooms I wanted. Although the blooms are not as large, or as full, BC blooms way more than MIP ever did for me, they don't fry as easily and they still fill the garden with fragrance.

Gardenias resemble roses in appearance and have large, fragrant flowers. There are only white gardenias, which represent purity, love, and the power of attraction. As a result, they're the ideal romantic alternative to roses.

Funny you mention gardenias because they’re the plant I can most reliably kill. My spouse grew them growing up in the Midwest and loves them so I’ve tried to grow at least four of them. Every one flowered once and then suffered a painful death. I’m pretty sure the last one just spontaneously died when I brought it home.

I don’t think our Mediterranean climate and mild humidity are good for gardenias. So we choose roses as a substitute and thus began my love of roses.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR how is your Spanish Beauty doing? I was warned that it is rather tender and is hasn't grown a lot so far this spring. It has been cold with several periods of frost in March.

A rooted cutting that I took last year flourishes in the greenhouse, so maybe it really needs the heat to get going. I'm hoping to se a few flowers this summer. Fingers crossed!

MetteBee, mine has been struggling. I did have a tree near it removed, and that may help it this Summer. Mine does bloom and is beautiful but it does behave like it is in a borderline hardy situation here. When I started irrigating some trees vigor far out competed the roses. I do have hope for a rebound but agree it likes heat. I'll post if the tree removal is the answer.

The Spring freeze/thaw does not help either here.

Interesting, Sheila. I'm considering putting my own root plant next to my south facing wall in the autumn. Marechal Niel definitely likes heat and is doing very well there. Speaking of roses that I probably should not grow:

MN starts producing buds very early and they get damaged by cold and aphids. Meanwhile Albas and Gallicas have barely leafed ud yet! No cold damage there...

MN last week

Here is my MN and SB Mette.

MN

SB

Not blooming or booming here yet.

They both look very healthy. Looking forward to pictures of flowers :)

Thank you both for giving me ideas - I would love to have either MN or SB, but thought they would be too difficult. However, our climate zone here has changed from a definite 9 to a definite 10 in the past few years - maybe I should think of that as an opportunity to try and grow them.

Jackie

Oh, please do try and grow them, Jackie! I'm sure they will thrive in your climate and do much better than in my Atlantic, cool climate.

I agree, Jackie!

Sheila — I would love to grow Spanish Beauty/Mme Gregoire Staechlin but not sure how it would do here in Brooklyn/7b. My mother had a number of her climbing along the fence/trellis in the back of the one of her borders. W/Perle d’Azur clematis climbing SP and blooming after she finished. All in part shade. Wish I had a photo to share — it was stunning. As were the hips later. She was in south central PA, zone 6b/7a - think w/fairly acid clay, if that helps.

About how big Sombeuil gets — the Brooklyn Botanic Garden’s (7b) is 10? 12? feet, I think. That’s still quite a bit south of 5b - but gives some comparison with it’s size in 9/10 CA.

I wish I had enough sun to grow Mel’s Heritage. But unless something strikes down the invasive Norway Maples in our neighbor’s yards….not sure if even then. No idea what would be a good sub — including get that big.

Oursteelers did your Baltimore Belle arrive? What color is the foliage of yours - light/mid/dark green?

Marechal Neil, hmmm... When we first moved in here right after we got married in 1989, my FIL walked all over the garden with me, telling me the names of all of the plants & trees, including the roses, and when they were planted, if he knew. He told me all sorts of things I did not know, including for example what to do with/about all of the "tall leaves" I saw growing up (with no blooms at all ) in a very shady place. He told me they were "My Grandmother's Flags", and showed me how to cut them, dig up the rhizomes, and plant them in the sun. He grew up in our house, and was born in 1913. In one overgrown side garden, he said there had been a large bush of Marechal Neil since his childhood, and he seemed surprised when he could not find it. So, perhaps I will try MN - I can remember the amazing photos Daisy posted of her MN.

Jackie

I got a Ballerina mistakenly so HCR is sending a new one this year. I can’t wait to get my hands on a Baltimore Belle!

Oursteelers I'm gonna be hounding you for photos.

I am very annoyed with my inability to find blue bayou

I grow blue moon, blue girl, fragrant plum, and paradise.

they don't live up to blue bayou's true blue.