@pgjs Thanks for compiling this information. I *think* that the Gaggenau can do some of the modes you have shown for the Miele but not for the Gaggenau. For example, here is a video about roasting in the Gaggenau. AFAIK, you can also broil without steam. Those are just a couple of examples. I do think you are correct that there is no bottom only heating, but I'm unsure how much of a limitation that is.

@TXGuy Thank for the video. It's helpful to see these ovens in action. Gaggenau in particular since I can't see a working one in person.

Yes, I think you can still do a lot without all the different modes and achieve good results. Miele suggests the bottom heat modes for pizza, quiche, and browning bottom crusts, but it definitely isn't a critical mode. As I was making the chart, I did feel that some of these modes were not necessary for me. Gaggenau just doesn't have a roast mode like Thermador, which I think is more top than bottom heat, so I didn't put that info in the chart.

These were the modes I saw in the instruction manual (https://media3.gaggenau.com/Documents/9001474923_C.pdf).

In modes 9 and 10, I'm not sure you can control the humidity. In the video you sent, they use a broil with humidity mode and it doesn't look like it, but that is an older model. Mode 11 looks like a convection broil, so maybe that's what you're thinking of? I didn't see a broil without a fan in the modes. I've never had convection broil, so I'm not sure how different it would be compared to a normal broil. I imagine I'll do most of my broiling in a convection oven that gets hotter though.

If you can't see a working Gaggenau in action then check that service and repairs over the life of the appliance will be available where you live.

@pgjs I do agree a bottom element would be nice for things like quiche. I am guessing you can approximate the Thermador roast mode since the Gaggenau has the top broiler element, but it may take some experimentation. I seem to remember that you can control the humidity in all modes, but that may not be correct. Reading page 58 of the manual, I am pretty sure you can broil without convection. I am definitely prepared for some experimentation and learning curve when I get my appliance!

@TXGuy that's cool. I hope you keep us posted on your gaggenau experience. Are you getting the convection oven too? When will your build be done?

@pgjs I will keep you posted, but it will be a while -- current projection is March of 2024 (!)

I am doing the 30" convection oven as well, mounting the CSO above it.

For home made Pizza’s, Gaggenau CO’s have additonal baking stone + additional bottom heater acessory is supposedly good for ”Italian” style pizza. (The type with very thin and crispy bases). Link > https://www.gaggenau.com/us/productlist/accessories/ovens/baking-stones

@Simple_Mind Yes, I am excited about that accessory. A poster here was expecting one as a gift, but I don't recall seeing any feedback about how he liked it.

@TXGuy Seems like there are some comments feedback on the pizza stone in german here. (i have put it thru google translate) https://www-kuechen--forum-de.translate.goog/forum/themen/gaggenau-pizzastein.22240/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

- It seems like its nice, and quicker to heat up than a std. pizza stone.

@TXGuy, I'm strongly considering the Gagg CSO with the Gagg convection installed under it. Once your project is complete, I'd love to learn about your experience with your Gagg ovens. Contrary to what I read here in an earlier post, I'm hearing from a variety of kitchen designers and salespersons that the Gagg ovens are the most reliable and long lasting of any ovens on the market. There's very little actual user reported longevity information that I can find online. My parents had Gagg wall ovens, no steam, for around 20 years before they moved from that home Their Gagg ovens were the best ovens I've ever used. They never needed any repairs during the 20 years my parents lived there. I do remember them referring to the manual a lot while learning to use the ovens.

@pgjs if you are not ordering anytime soon. Looks like Miele has annouced a new incremental update to the 7000 series DGC’s in Germany with Hydro Clean self cleaning, dish washer style. (basically what gaggenau has done with their plumbed steam ovens)

https://www.miele.de/en/m/hydroclean-now-makes-miele-combi-steam-ovens-self-cleaning-6151.htm

At least in germany, it seems like the HC Pro, its availible from their mid range 74xx line and up unlike the gagg which is only avalible in thier top end models.

@JJ Mekai I had missed your reply until now. I will certainly share my feedback, but my project has been plagued with delays, and what was expected to be a Jan 2023 completion as recently as Sep 2021 is now looking like a Apr 2024 completion, and I think that's an optimistic estimate. So you may not want to wait for me :) I have heard good things about reliability from KDs and salespeople as well. I am a big believer in "averages" and such, but I also realize that any specific instance of an appliance can have good or bad longevity, and that there is some luck involved with any person's individual experience.

@Simple_Mind Thanks for posting about this. I still like the Gaggenau for the side swing door, appearance, and some other features, but the cleaning mode on the Miele is a great addition and certainly whittles away at one of the Gaggenau advantages. Not needing a special cartridge like the Gaggenau is a big benefit IMHO, and probably dramatically lowers the per-cleaning cost of the Miele relative to the Gaggenau.

@TXGuy, thank you for checking back in. I understand delays. We're even delayed getting our septic put in. I'm not sure when we'll actually start building, probably sometime next year. Looking forward to hearing back from you when you are up and running.

@Simple_Mind Thank you! That's a nice new feature. I wonder when it'll get to the US.

I need to finalize my kitchen layout with my designer and order soon though. We're hopefully starting our remodel next August. One salesperson said it took around 12 months, but my builder said they were hearing about delays up to 18 months with Miele, (but not specifically for CSOs I think). So maybe by the time I get my CSO, they'll have updated the models.

@TXGuy That's a long delay! We're doing a remodel and have to move out during that time. We haven't gotten an estimate of how long the remodel will take. I'm afraid of how long we'll have to find alternate housing for after adding in delays. I'm planning on a Gaggenau CO, so depending on who finishes first, we can trade info. Best of luck with your house!

@pgjs Thanks, and likewise with your remodel. Hopefully you can get most things taken care of and staged prior to starting the project to minimize delays.

@JJ Mekai, I have previous models of the Gaggenau ovens installs a dozen years ago. As good as you've been told. If you have questions, let me know.

I though I was set in Wolf Combi then found out there are so many others out there. Will have to look into Miele’s. Thank you all for sharing

Wolf now has a plumbed steam oven. Not sure what if any other changes they’ve made.

@waybig90 Nice catch! One thing I immediately noticed at that I believe is a first -- the 30" model has a bigger cavity than the 24" model. I believe this is a unique offering in the market. but I may be misremembering.

The Wolf also has a broil (top) element which the previous model did not.

@Simple_Mind Wow, this makes it even more compelling and quite competitive. If they could solve the enamel chipping issue with their ovens, I'd consider their CSO and convection pair for my new build.

Hi, very helpful info here. I was looking at the new 30” Wolf CSO, plumbed with broiler… was going to pair it with an induction cooktop and a Wolf 30” wall oven. Does anyone know if Wolf has resolved the delamination issues with their oven interiors? … an alternative for us would be 48” df Thermador range with convection oven and small convection steam oven and gas + induction burner pair. The look of the Thermador is perfect for our period farmhouse, but I have some concerns about the amount of work to keep it clean. I also wonder if the small oven is a true CSO at least on par with Thermador’s separate CSO, or is it just an oven that adds steam … does anyone know?

pgjs - What items/meals would you prefer to have a 24" over a 30" ? For example, I'm looking at the Wolf 30" CSO which has a width of 25" and 2.4 cubic feet. Is there any benefit in choosing Wolf's smaller 24" CSO over their 30" ? I'm trying to think of what meals would benefit from a smaller oven cavity and I can't think of anything.

@Pi_pumkin_sol3 We haven't finished our remodel, but I would prefer the 30". I think the main benefit of the 24" is a quicker preheat. I went with the Miele XXL since my hope is that I'll do the majority of my baking in it.

Would love to get some thoughts about the new Wolfe 30” CSO Vs the Gaggenau 30” CSO (which is the same as their 24”..? Just a wider bezel?) We are first time SO users. No meat, just vegetarian cooking and baking…

@G S You are coorect that the Gaggenau 30" CSO is the same as the 24", just with a wider bezel. The newest 30" Wolf CSO has a larger cavity than the 24". This is a chance from the prior version of the Wolf CSO.

We have had a Thermador CSO for going on a year now. I didn’t intend on it’s being our primary oven, but it is. I’d thought I might mind it’s not being plumbed, but that’s really not been an issue. It does an insanely good job of roasting chicken.

@theotherjaye, thank you for your comment. I expect my CSO to be my primary oven. I'm using an Anova countertop steam oven now while I wait to build. I find it makes great roasted chicken and pretty much everything else too. But cleaning it is quite a chore. That's why I was thinking of going with the Gagg. It has cleaning cartridges that I understand do a great job of cleaning. How have you been cleaning your Thermador? Has it been a chore?

I am wanting a steam CSO and am trying to decide between a Thermador or Wolf. Unfortunately, neither Gagganau or Miele are sold or serviced in my area. Wondering if having to open the oven door to fill the water reservoir on the Thermador has been an issue? Are they easy to clean? Any comments will be appreciated. Thanks!

What I like about the new wolf 30” is that it has the widest cavity or of any steam oven on the market. Think of how often we could use a wider space for sheets, racks, wide pans and dishes. It now comes with a broiler on top as well. And for many such as myself, there is nonexistent/poor service availability for Miele and Gagg in my area…..so while those steam ovens COULD perform “better” than a wolf CSO , there are plenty of threads on here of people saying how often their Miele CSO needs repair and are so thankful they paid for an extended warranty. Wolf/SZ ecosystem is known for its great customer service and I know they are Available for when I need help . Their CSO is all stainless, so no enamel chipping issues to worry about either.

If its wolf vs thermador for a combi steam. I would choose wolf. The stainless steel interior if far less likely to Rust than the enamel steel thermador. There is a reason why gaggeneu and miele use stainless steel in their combi steam oven.

Can't say enough good things about my Miele. I would absolutely buy it again, even though I did have a repair that happened under the extended warranty, and scarily enough that warranty has now run out so I am on my own. But it's still an amazingly well-engineered product.

But I hear @Pi_pumpkin_sol3, if there is no way to get Miele serviced where they live, this simply might not be an option. In that case, features such as a stainless steel cavity would rank for high on my list of must-haves.

@ Pi_pumkin_sol3 do you have Wolf plumbed CSO? How do you like it?

This is a great thread! We are considering the Wolf CSO, not sure if there is a different between the plumbed vs non-plumbed other thant one is plumbed. Would like to know? Also, Will consider a different brand if there is something better.

From a User eXperience perspective, plumbed models with automatic water intake and automatic draining have the lowest “user friction”. Non-plumbed models require users to i.) fill up water tank before use. ii.) after use wipe dry the interior and iii) empty the condensate tank.
Lower “user friction” will make it more likely it will be used.
As we all know. The most expensive kitchen appliance is the one that rarely gets used.

If you are shopping on the segment of the market where the models have non-plumbed and plumbed options . The 5-10% price difference between the plumbed and non plumbed is worth it.

It's really the install of the plumbed version. More specifically the need for a drain. That limits where we can install one, or we have to trench 10' to a drain. On another note, with so many models to choose from, I'm struggling to make a decision. We are going with Wolf for the other appliances, so naturally you'd select Wolf, but I feel like with a CSO, it's important to buy the best one out there. A friend who has an older model Miele said they rarely use it because everything comes out like mush. I assume they're using it wrong or possibly an old version that didn't have easy programming. My assumption is they are not drying it at the last step of cooking.

> Non-plumbed models require users to i.) fill up water tank before use. ii.) after use wipe dry the interior and iii) empty the condensate tank.

ii.) applies to both plumbed and non-plumbed. Source: Oper manuals and training classes at miele experience centers.

To be even more specific, miele says to wipe dry after each use with steam and to run the rinse function (and optionally the drying function) once every day you use steam.

I have not experienced the Wolf 30" CSO yet because there was massive delays in my project. That said, I look forward to using it once it's installed.

I chose Wolf 30" because

1) it's new

2) it has largest interior of any CSO (most 30" are just framing, the interior cavity is basically the same as the 24"

3) It has a new broiler and new updated touch screen interface

4) since it's wider, I can fit more meals into it

5) Wolf has much better customer service than Miele, hands down. When the thing breaks (not if, WHEN) I know i'm in better hands with Subzero wolf than Miele's random technicians!

@future_retiree Not all models require manual drying. For example, the Gaggenau does not require the user to wipe the unit after use. As best I can tell, the Gaggenau has the lowest "friction" associated with it, which is one of the reasons it is my choice for CSO.

Does anyone who has the new wolf 30" have any feedback on using it? Or does anyone know of any other WIDE steam ovens coming to market?

I am looking at a Wolf CSO for our new kitchen. How are the drain lines typicallly... are they run through other cabinetry to the sink, or are they installed in the walls before installing cabinetry?

Can someone comment on the difference between 30" Wolf CSO Series E and M? Also, we are thinking of installing it under the cooktop. Does anyone have a similar set up and can comment on experience? Thank you!

For the CSO the e series vs m series is only about style and matching another oven. Functionally they are exactly the same.

I've been talking with SubZero Wolf about their appliances in detail at our local showroom. FYI, for anyone that is an experienced cook and experienced with combi steam cooking, my understanding is that you cannot set the temperature and steam levels independently with the Wolf combi steam ovens. You have to use their presets for what you are cooking. With the Gaggenau combi steam oven, you can set temperature, steam level and cooking duration yourself. I'm going to have to find out about the Miele steam ovens. Since Miele has Master Chef and Automatic Menu Cooking, I have to find out if you are also able to set time, temperature and cooking duration independantly from the Miele combi steam oven suggestions. I understand why these new features are desirable for many. But, personally, I don't want my oven telling me how to cook. I want to tell my oven how to cook my food.

With Miele, you can set all of these parameters, but depending on which mode or menu you chose, you might only have a subset or a limited range. There also are odd restrictions where you can't always chain together complex temperature/humidity profiles that cover multiple ranges.

In practical use, you won't often notice these limitations. But when you first start using the appliance it can feel counter-intuitive why the appliance distinguishes between baking with humidity vs. sous-vide cooking. Both modes combine heat and humidity, but the former restricts you to higher temperatures and the latter only works for lower temperatures; and I think the humidity ranges also differ.

This is truly just a UI limitation. The appliance can do all of the combinations. And over time, you'll figure out how to navigate the menu. It frustrated me the first few weeks, but I haven't really noticed in years. The menu is actually not bad, but it helps if you learn the philosophy that guides it.

@M, that is super helpful information. Has your Miele combi steam oven been reliable or has it needed repair? Can you set for convection bake and then set the steam percentage? I use that combination a lot, particularly for roasting chicken.

I have had the Miele CSO for 10 years and have the M touch with the automatic programs. You can set temp and steam % for convection bake using the Combi Mode. This mode allows you to choose which cooking mode (convection, surround, broil, and not sure what else - I am out of town and can’t look at my oven) and then you can set a steam level including 0%. I chain this mode together into several steps into a custom program for baking my sourdough and other breads for example. The biggest limitation I find with this oven is you cannot set a temp over 435 in the baking modes. I have found the automatic programs quite useful especially in the beginning as I was getting use to the functionality.

Per M’s comments - when I first got my oven it did not have the sous vide funciton. So if I wanted to do sous vide I used the steam function and set temperature. After a firmware upgrade the sous vide function was added. I think some of the modes are to try to make it more intuitive to use.

As far as reliability - my first oven has alot of issues in the first 9 years. I bought the 5 year warranty and got alot of use out of it. In years 8 and 9 I started having issues with the heating elements failing - after multiple attempts to repair replacing many parts - Miele declared my oven not repairable. I ended up getting a newer version of the same oven (same door style as the new oven door style is different from my other 2 Miele ovens) for a very reasonable price as they still had inventory in their warehouse. Miele discounted it significantly including a rebate of my last large reapair. I have been very happy with the new oven, I plan to buy the 10 year warranty now offered for this oven. My other two Miele ovens (convection and speed) have been very reliable.

The ability to set temp and steam % was the reason I went with Miele in the first place rather then Thermador or Wolf. I did not consider Gaggenau given the price point.

@Kim G, thank you so much for sharing all of these details. Super helpful! I use my combi steam for most of my cooking. I roast poultry a lot and I find cleaning the steam oven I'm using now is overwhelming. Is your Miele combi steam plumbed and how challenging has it been to clean the tough things like burned grease? Miele offers hydroclean in their steam ovens overseas but not in the US. Gaggenau has a similar cleaning system like the hydroclean. Signature Kitchen Suite has a full size convection steam oven that has a self clean feature like most convection ovens. I'm skeptical that their combi steam is really a true combi steam. I don't see how it can really offer the same steam capabilities as the smaller combi steam ovens since it is a full size oven. If it really is a true combi steam and not a steam assist oven, that will really be something. It's going to be available in their induction range in a few months too.

The plumbed version was not available when we were doing our rough plumbing hence I got a non-plumbed version. That is not an issue for me as my prep sink is basically 180 degree turn away. I would get a plumbed version if I was doing new construction. I will admit - I do not roast meat in my oven except for perhaps a beef wellington. We do almost all of our meat on our primo grills (we have two). I also have the Miele Steam Assist 30” wall oven that has self clean which I do use maybe once every 2 years. The oven seems to stay pretty clean - maybe because I do quite a bit of high heat pizza cooking that helps disenegrate the burnt on grease. There are some disussions out here about cleaning the CSO. You might want to do a search. Several methods have been devised and shared. My new oven after one year looks like new. It seems to not stain like my old one, and I am dilligent about rumnning a rinse after a steam mode cycle and wiping it down.