Hi Chispa, I came across the same findings as you did. I’ll have to address it with the cabinet maker. I’m definitely disappointed by this outcome.

Why does it look spray painted? I would not accept that for sure. Here is the link with the product.

https://www.richelieu.com/ca/en/category/surfaces-panels-and-edgebanding/premium-panels/agt-panels/supramat-and-soft-touch-agt-panels/1232385

I would get your architect out to take a look, since he highly recommended the product.

Who picked the cabinet shop?

Can you put a stop to the cabinet installation till you get some answers?

Is this a custom build on your own lot?

Hi Chispa,

Architect recommended both the cabinet product and the cabinet maker. I asked the cabinet maker and he said that’s the way it is but I’m not convinced. I’m going to see about contacting supramat for more information. Architect has also seen the cabinets and wasn’t sure about why they looked like that. I’m feeling it’s a poor custom job. :(

Maybe it is possible to order sample door with edgebanding from AGT Supramat.

It is a poor job and he is giving you excuses. Ask him about the bumpy texture on the door. I am sure the little sample was smooth.

Excellent edge banding starts with the blade selected to cut the panels. I'm betting he needed something like the Forrest Duraline Hi-A/T. I'd call Forrest and ask them which blade they recommend for Supramat, they're very friendly, and compare that blade to the blade that was used.

It may be possible to rip off the edgebanding with the proper blade and do it over.

Hi Joseph, thank you for your input. I’ll check that out.

I am always curious why a custom cabinet maker that does not show you a finished door sample and honestly I have been doin Ikea kitchens for 22+ yrs and the white high gloss are awesome I have them in my home and I rubn a caterig biz from there my cabinets are 16 yrs old and not one nick or edge damaged with sometimes 6 people working. I have used IKea in many very expensive homes just because of the quality of the product and I have very oftem mad e my designs look totally custom with some good planning.Awesome hardware and this is one kitchen I did with the high gloss gray fir like a glove just like custom even the back wall to frame the W/D the total cost less than 15K. I get custom if there is a wood you want to have and that is not available but white cabinets are everywhere .

Hi Lomo,

Thank you for your response. Have you worked with linear woodworking before?

Here are more photos of the edge banding on the drawer. And closeups of other banding they glued on. It just looks like poor workmanship

Are those supposed to be integrated finger edge pulls on the top of the drawer? I don't see those edges lasting in a well used kitchen with a family.

Do you still owe money? I hope so. Don't pay it.

I feel offended just by looking at that "craftsmanship". I cannot believe there are people who sell such a thing and take money for this kind of work. I hope OP will resolve this problem.

You MUST stop this cabinet production and tell the architect you don’t like the work of this person/company.

You will be extremely unhappy if you keep going forward. Being a bit fierce now will save you thousands of dollars on poor work.

That is a hack job all the way around.

How did you pay him?

Hi Chispa, yes those are supposed to be a integrated finger pulls.

@cpartist we’ve paid 80%. It’s a 100K cabinet job which includes the kitchen, laundry and two other closets. :(

Glad you came on here for support and guidance. You deserve much better and control the final outcome so stop production until a satisfactory solution is presented to you.

Hello DesertDweller I'm not a Pro Cab. maker or Installer but all I can say is this. I noticed the discoloration on the panels and the poorly cut seam pieces as well as the ragged edges to what I'm guessing is the bottom of a cabinet panel. I'm sorry for what you've gone through, doesn't matter if it's a remodel, new construction or just updating- it's your hard earned money, it's your home, bottom line. Can't stress enough to anyone that hires any Professional for any type of work that we all must educate ourselves prior to choosing any specific company. This is only my opinion- if that was being done in my house ? I'd have every piece removed, contact the Manufacturer of said product and stop all work being performed by whomever you've hired.. take better quality photos prior to removal, get advice on the return of all monies spent on Product, Contract, and Install including a concise list of expenses, any add on costs and a concise list from the Contractor/Installer, Idk if you're using a Installer referred by your Contractor or by the Company or you chose someone yourself. Nothing is inexpensive today..I think many ppl feel they don't have enough knowledge in the areas that they must hire a Pro, not all R DIY nor should it be. You may need a legal representation here. I know nothing about cutting tools, blades ect... but I can clearly see this Installer has no concern about chopping away @ Trim pieces or panel bottoms. That Drawer Pic ? Those pieces definitely aren't going to remain. Discoloration of the Cabinet Door Panels ? What's happened there ? Were they exposed to anything damaging or possibly a Manufacturer Defect. Believe most ppl hope for everything to be as perfect as possible- that's why we hire Professionals- to be done properly the 1st X ! This is your HOME, not the installers, not the manufacturers or the contractors. Get detailed photos, if U have any panels or doors left in the container they arrived in and those are opened ? Get photos of that as well, get info of a lot # or batch #. I hope you haven't paid out more than 1/4-1/2 the total cost on install. Most likely have paid the entire price for all the cabinet panels- this is why it's imperative the work stops TODAY most preferably. Obtain all info of the Installer, Company, Manufacturer and anyone else involved in the ordering/delivery process. I'm in no way criticizing either of you. Homeowners have no option but to trust what we're being told. I for one have no money to waste on poor quality of manufacturing, poor workmanship for whatever reason ( there's no excuse if this is what they do for a living, are Licensed, Accredited, and Reputable) request to see this Installers Professional Liscense #. If he can't provide it ? Whatever Company he works for has to have it on File. I'm so sorry you've gone through this. Truly hope you can have all monies refunded to you and that the Manufacturer will work w/you on this matter. If not ? You will need to take Legal recourse. Such a shame. Truly

I'd like to send a Thank You to commenter J Sk for sharing the Link. Certainly hopes it helps them.

Anne:

Your attitude is decidely unhelpful in this situation. Desert Dweller needs to put together a list of concerns and present them to the cabinetmaker calmly and reasonably. It's much too soon to go "tough guy" and if DD would like to set money on fire immediately, I suggest she contact an attorney.

I am really sorry about this. It's insane that the cabinet maker says this is normal. At some point, if you are a professional and you can't get the look that is promised, or you wouldn't put it in your own house, you need to walk away and tell the GC / HO / Architect that you are not the right person for this work. And it's clear they are not.

@Anne Garcia said, “I'd have every piece removed, contact the Manufacturer of said product and stop all work being performed by whomever you've hired.”

This is certainly not an installation issue, these problems were there when the cabinets were manufactured. However, the cabinetmaker likely has the right to correct. So, I would not take any type of final or drastic action. Start by contacting AGT and see what they say.

I have not used Supramat, but my understanding of the product is: when done correctly it should have a zero edge glue line. Certainly you can achieve that with a laser or hot air edgebander, but I thought the selling point of Supramat was zero edge with any heated bander. At any rate those are not acceptable edges.

As @Joseph Corlett, LLC mentioned this looks like a blade issue on the panel cut that is compounded by simply not finishing the edgebanding.

@ Joseph Corlett, LLC 

Everyone here is simply offering what would hopefully be a helpful opinion. Tho you state my "advice" wasn't helpful? At the end of your response to me was exactly the same thing I'd suggested. Legal Representation.

In addition to the edges being rough, it looks like the paint job is terrible. Or maybe that is just the photography? But it looks like big chucks and flecks of dirt in the paint job.

" and if DD would like to set money on fire immediately, I suggest she contact an attorney. "

He is NOT suggesting to contact a lawyer, he said that is the best way to set money on fire. You need to work together to come to an agreement, conversation, state your not happy and exactly what your not happy with. The OP digging in heels will do the same with the contractor, and the house will never get finished and you will still end up right where you are now.

@Anne Garcia - I understand that you are trying to be helpful by explaining what you would do in this situation. However, I don't believe you actually would be quite so standoffish. I strongly suspect that if you had paid $80,000 of a $100,000 cabinet bill, you would take some time before demanding cabinets be removed and demanding your money back... Furthermore, taking some time would be the correct action. The OP should start by simply insisting that this is not acceptable and ask for a resolution.

No custom cabinetmaker is going to hand back $80,000 just because the customer demands it. It is a great way to lose $80,000 and let's assume the OP would rather not lose $80,000. The UCC provides a maker of goods with a right to correct defects. I strongly suspect that the OP's best solution is to provide some evidence that this is not acceptable and therefore needs to be corrected.

The OP should now contact the architect.

Next, I would contact the manufacturer (AGT), If that doesn't work, find a cabinetmaker who actually produces zero edge Supramat cabinets and see if they can assess this work. You might have to be circumspect about your inquiry, probably by asking if they could produce better results for your order.

The best solution is one that gets the cabinetmaker to admit these are substandard and correct them.

Finally, I would consult with an attorney. @Joseph Corlett, LLC is simply wrong about that. When you have paid $80,000 of $100,000 in goods and the quality is this bad, your actions need to be considered and correct. Simple mistakes, such as demanding a refund can ruin your chances of a positive outcome. In the real world, attorneys rarely want to go to court over issues like this, but some professionals pretend that is the only thing they can do. Developing a plan, with an attorney, to stay out of court, while still protecting the option to sue is something the OP should do when the stakes are in the six figures.

Good luck.

@bry911- I understand what your saying. I appreciate you commenting in a way of not coming off as insulting. I have had some bad experiences in using different Professionals for various purposes. I wouldn't have paid out 80% of that job. If that's been done its a bit too late to have everything removed and demand refund. I'm in no way bashing the use of Professional Services, as I said most homeowners are unaware of the knowledge needed for many renovations or whom to even use to finish interior design work on a new build ect....A colleague of mine had her Kitchen updated- from the beginning she wasn't happy with the renovations yet she spent quite a lot of money, she communicated with the Lead guy working about her concerns but she was placated instead of her concerns actually being addressed. She finally gave up saying anything leaving her w/a kitchen she still wasn't happy with. I'm truly not attempting to be "stand- offish". Once the work has been completed and paid for even when notable substandard work or craftsmanship is brought to the attention of whoever needs to address it while being done may not address it at all or attempt to "fix" whatever issues are noted ? Homeowner inspects the "fixed" issues and all looks great, 2-3 months later ? Homeowner realizes something doesn't look quite right- what recourse does that Homeowner have then ? 

 The only recourse I've seen others go through is hiring someone else to fix everything creating more expense. There are excellent Professional Services out there that provide exceptional quality service that strive for perfection in all they do, take pride in their work and stand behind their work, there's others that take forever and act like they know what they're doing when they clearly don't creating upcharges all along. It's just what it is. Being taken advantage of by anyone is wrong, worse when you are paying someone. I learned the hard way by paying for Services that I'd entrusted to be done correctly, no short cuts. Not the case. Not everyone has the monetary advantage of hiring another to fix the mistake made by the initial person or company. Whether it's a 5 or 6 figure job ? Imo ? It better be done correctly. Certainly say I know I'm not the only person in here that's had subpar work done. Not placing the blame on any particular person or company because it's not my house, but someone or multiple people are responsible here. I've had excellent work done in my house and very poor work done. Just can't imagine how bad those homeowners feel. Idk if these issues were just noticed or were going on all along. I only have my income so I must be diligent in my choice of whom I choose because I certainly don't have a never-ending source of money. Again Ty for being kind.

I've used this product:

I agree that the issue is with the fabrication, not the product. Particularly as other have said, the edge banding is problematic.

We tell our clients all the time that modern is more expensive than other styles and this is why. Every detail has to be precisely executed or it will detract from the overall effect. You cannot hide imperfections with trim or molding in modern design.

I wonder if the fabricator has experience with modern cabinetry. We only use frameless construction for slab doors and drawers for tighter reveals. Does this fabricator have other modern cabinetry in their portfolio?

"Finally, I would consult with an attorney. @Joseph Corlett, LLC is simply wrong about that."

bry911:

If anyone is wrong it is you. This is much too early for lawyers. A lawyer before the cabinetmaker has even been shown the courtesy that there's a problem?

There's a time and a place for lawyers. This early, this isn't it.

The rush-to-legal advice here is becoming cliche and is counterproductive.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC said, “This is much too early for lawyers. A lawyer before the cabinetmaker has even been shown the courtesy that there's a problem?”

The OP already noted, “I asked the cabinet maker and he said that’s the way it is but I’m not convinced.”

With all due respect, the cabinetmaker was given the opportunity to address the issue and instead chose to lie about it. At this point, I think it is wise to fully understand your options and the likely pitfalls of them.

There IS a lot of money on the line. A lawyer could advise the OP in terms of not taking any actions that would preclude certain claims or defenses in the future. The cabinet maker may not ever even know an attorney was engaged, but at least OP will not have lost any options.

"This is why only larger cabinet brands should be used for kitchens . . . Small cabinet shops do not make what kitchen designers call custom cabinets. These shop make what we consider homemade cabinetry."

This is just a sweeping generalization from someone who works only with larger cabinet brands, and it indicts every local custom shop, saying that they all operate at the same level of incompetence. And "larger cabinet brands" also includes stuff put together by slave labor in Asia, if you include Everyone, the same way you are doing by disparaging all custom shops, and I doubt you really want to do that.

I don't disagree with you on some level. I had a guy recommended to me by two people, glowingly, one of whom said "You can give him a sketch on a napkin, and he can build you a good cabinet from that" --And this was true, if you generally had an idea that you wanted a generic cabinet and were kind of vague about what you wanted it to look like, he could build you a cabinet and put some hardware on it and paint it. What he could not do was even really read shop drawings or follow measurements or finish anything in a professional looking manner. It might have been worse than home made. I could have done better with the right tools simply by being able to read a tape measure and shop drawings.

On the other hand I am working with a smallish local custom shop right now on a kitchen where there are no fillers, there is no trim to cover anything, the upper cabinets have to fit partially into recesses into the wall because of some architectural quirks of the house, and everything is fitting to millimeters. And it worked out to less than what a fully custom larger brand would cost.

This is not my cabinetry, but this is their work, it's a two-sided room divider with drawers at this end and some opening or cabinet that opens on the unseen side at the far end.

This is not "homemade cabinetry" and I think you would have a Really hard time getting something like this from a larger manufacturer.

“Lawyers will cost as much as the project and getting a satisfactory outcome is unlikely.”

This is an oft repeated exaggeration. Litigation costs a lot of money, but few civil matters are litigated. Only a small percentage of civil matters even result in a filing (anecdotally 25 - 40 consultations per filing) and less than 10% of filings are actually ever litigated, with more than half never responding to the complaint. The vast majority of civil matters are resolved for less than $2,000.

You wouldn’t decide not to buy a car because the most expensive half percent of cars cost too much money. So don’t make decisions on seeing an attorney based on the most expensive half percent either.

Additionally, the exaggeration about the cost of attorneys can be pretty useful. Conflict resolution problems are just an incredibly complex communications. The cabinetmaker and the OP are each trying to arrive at a solution that benefits them. The knowledge you get from legal counsel is valuable, but also just seeing an attorney changes the stakes for the cabinetmaker which can be beneficial.

Please listen to Joseph Corlett LLC! To bring a lawyer in this early will not end well for anyone.

There are plenty of small shops with CNC equipment and quality edge banders around that could product high level Euro cabinets. Join a few cabinet making groups and see for yourself. However, that shop was not one of them.

“Please listen to Joseph Corlett LLC! To bring a lawyer in this early will not end well for anyone.”

I am beyond tired of comments like this from people who are simply incorrect and have no basis or support for their opinion. Here is a dead give away: when someone says, “bring an attorney into this,” rather than consult with an attorney, you know they are full of it. It is NEVER too early to consult with an attorney! I do mean, never… like not even one time has it ever been too early to consult with an attorney.

A consultation may not be worth the money it would cost, so don’t spend on a consultation when buying a toaster, but even then earlier is always better.

I often urge people to work out problems without an attorney, typically because the relationship is ongoing and the problem is too small given the scope of the entire project. I also urge people who are unlikely to recover any reasonable amount to work things out without an attorney. I have consulted my attorney half a dozen times and I have never had him contact the other party in any way.

E.g. my neighbor was regrading their property when they installed a large pool and patio area. I was concerned because their land is much higher than mine and I was afraid it would push water on my property. An attorney advised me about the nuances in right of use that I was not too familiar with and that let ME (not the attorney) address the issue with my neighbors from a position of knowledge. The neighbors had no idea that knowledge was gained from an attorney.

The attorney suggested that I discuss my concerns with the neighbors and ask them if they would allow me to pay for an engineering report. The attorney helped me frame it in a way so that it wasn’t a conflict, rather a way to ensure we never have a conflict. They accepted, a few minor modifications were made and my neighbors insisted on paying for the report since it helped discover a problem.

That is pretty much what attorneys usually do. It is what attorneys have done for me many times, and so once again… it may be too early to threaten litigation, or send demand letters, but it is not too early to become more informed by an attorney.

This is why only larger cabinet brands should be used for kitchens.

I cannot understand this claim at all. In my market, there are a lot of really amazing local custom shops that offer exceptional execution of every complicated design I send them with the ability to meet personally to review every detail. I am a dealer of cabinetry too, so I do work with both custom and semi-custom. Issues can and do arise with either. When they do, I think my custom shops offer quicker resolution.

I'm hoping that the issues with the cabinetry from the OP are isolated to just a few doors and drawers that can be remade and replaced. I wouldn't worry about the face frames.

While it would be ideal to be able to start again with someone new and have the cabinets made to "perfection", it's unrealistic. Even though it was a referral from a pro working on the job, ultimately the OP agreed to use this cabinet fabricator. To anyone else following this, I suggest you fully vet your cabinet line by visiting their showroom and/or requesting to see their installations (especially those that are in the same style as your own) to make sure their quality and execution meet your expectations.

Thank you all for your comments. The issue is not with the product itself. It’s with the fabricator. I have not been able to get in touch with AGT but I spoke to another company in Phoenix who manufactures cabinets using AGT supramat and I learned a lot about the process. I may be ordering a full panel from them and have them cut cabinets for me with their edge banding and white glue. Unfortunately this will come out of my pocket. But I’m at the point where I need to prove everyone wrong. That this edge banding is not good and that it’s not a standard finish.

Shame on me and my husband for fully trusting in the architects. We should have asked for samples and bids from others that could at least produce a sample for us. But I guess that’s a learning as this is our first time doing this. This has been a huge project and has not just included tearing up a kitchen and adding New cabinets. We’re exhausted. I never imagined spending this much time and money to get this result.

To clarify, I’m ordering a panel as a sample as that’s the only way a sample can be fabricated. I gave to pay for a panel then get it cut to size, edge banded, etc.

@DesertDweller, maybe you could measure a few cabinet fronts in your kitchen you currently have since you are paying for those and use them. I hope you will resolve your situation, it really bothers me when somebody is trying to take advantage of customer like that. Good luck.

Thank you @J Sk. I’m hoping that’s what I’ll be able to do. I also learned that the beveled finger pull typically isn’t done using Supramat. A better result would be from thermofolding. So I guess there’s a lot of different ways to achieve a certain look or design, but it shouldn’t fall on the shoulders of the client to have to research the process. It’s like patients going to their doctors with a self diagnosis from webMD. We trusted the “award winning” architects designing the kitchen closely with the cabinet maker. Now I’m
Doing what I probably should have done before we got this far into the project.

Does this company you found do laser edgebanding ( zero joint)?

I will need to ask them more specifically. I believe that is also where I fall short. Since I’m not in the trade I am not well versed on correct terminology and products. I can only describe the end result that I am looking for. So this image is very helpful. Thank you!

Any update?

^^^

Hi J, I update at the moment. Other than I’ve learned apparently there are no laser edge banding manufacturers in Arizona. I’d have to go out of state and that’s just not an option for us.

bry911:

I don't disagree and perhaps I should be more clear. A small relatively inexpensive early consultation with a lawyer can be a value in order to gauge one's position of strength.

Legal advice isn't always good advice from a practical standpoint. I had my lawyer advise me to find a tax lawyer when the IRS said I owed them $35,000.00. I ignored this money waste, documented the situation to the IRS, and several months later got a 3-page letter that said "Nevermind."

It's just not realistic for readers here to believe that running to an attorney is going to automatidally provide redress. Use an attorney like any other subcontractor that provides a value. And remember, like an engineer, the advice you get may be legally sound, but practically worthless.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC said, "Legal advice isn't always good advice from a practical standpoint. I had my lawyer advise me to find a tax lawyer when the IRS said I owed them $35,000.00. I ignored this money waste, documented the situation to the IRS, and several months later got a 3-page letter that said "Nevermind."

With all due respect, this is just isn't good advice. What you are really saying is that you took a risk that you really didn't understand and it worked out fine. So you played Russian roulette and walked away unscathed... as most people (83%) would... That doesn't mean it was a smart decision. It really just shows a misunderstanding of how the IRS works.

There are a couple of things to understand about the IRS. The first is that there are two types of people working at the IRS... The absolute bottom of the accounting barrel and attorneys who spent too much money on law school and need government student loan forgiveness... the attorneys don't work on small business returns. Next, quotas were made illegal in 1998 and yet everyone knows they are still used, every couple of years there is a story about how the IRS is still using some collection efficiency metric that is just a different type of quota.

The IRS loses the lion's share of cases in court, partly because tax law is unique in having two sets of precedents. So, agents generally don't like dealing with attorneys because of that. It really doesn't matter how good your case is... statistically speaking, if you are representing yourself you are more likely to end up paying something. The IRS regularly collects from small businesses for things that any competent CPA or enrolled agent could have resolved and an attorney wouldn't even had to.

Your odds of winning were always high, just as they are in Russian roulette, but your odds would have been even higher with an attorney...

"What you are really saying is that you took a risk that you really didn't understand and it worked out fine."

No, it was a paperwork error by Lowe's that caused the problem. Even the IRS could figure it out immediately. Incredibly low risk.