I assume he's licensed--CA requires that unless the homeowner is doing the work. I'm definitely impressed--does he ever come work in northern CA?? The best I have found so far is to have our regular plumber do the plumbing work and a local tiler we found do the tile--luckily we did the electrical and window as part of past projects so it's just the tile, estimated to take about a week, and the plumbing, plus drywall and cabinetry. We'll do the painting ourselves. But our plumber can't install the cast iron tub so we have to contract that out separately--he'll attach it once it's installed. Even sourcing out the work to the trades, it's WAY more than $3K. It sounds like you have to luck into finding someone who is good but willing to charge below-market rates. The search goes on.

My cousin's husband in Northern CA was a super skilled person who did most everything himself and way under charged for what he did. Unfortunately he is now retired. He had a very small group of clients he worked for and got enough work from them that he never went outside that group to take on new customers. He didn't want or need reviews, advertising, or a website. I do think there are few people left like this and most of them are busy beyond belief.

Kim - My contractor was B & D General Contractor. Byron Gomez was the GC on my projects. His number is 973-934-2059

Your price sounds right on target. I did two bathrooms last year for around $40K but I didn't replace toilets (already upgraded) and didn't touch the tub in one. Nothing moved so plumbing minimal, electrical none except light fixtures in one. No sheetrock needed in either. My sister is doing a gut of the primary in Alabama which is a much lower priced market than NJ. Hers is $40K. Price sounds right to me.

"Or is it just about finding good contractors who don't charge $50/hour? (Not sure they even exist in our area--many charge more than that!)"

I nominate this for the most out-of-touch comment of the year. My guys get paid $30.00 an hour. I'm supposed to get the labor burden, health insurance, overhead, profit, etc., out the remaining twenty bucks? That is laughable. If you divide the labor hours into the job and your guys aren't earning your company lawyer rates, you're going broke, believe me.

My guys were each given a $100.00 tip on a recent job. Guys that good aren't cheap to hire or maintain, but they are the guys you want on your job.

$50 per hour is cheap for skilled labor. College interns working white collar financial jobs can earn $30 an hour sitting at a computer. Designers charge upwards of $200 an hour. Don't even ask about lawyers, who charge many hundreds per hour. Many of the skilled trades (plumbers, electricians) in my area get $150 per hour, just for the service call before any work is done. Union workers get more than nonunion.

Experience and education are what you pay for when hiring anyone. Cut corners and you set yourself up for problems down the road.

For every way you try to go around a fair price that comes with competency , experience, and all that it entails? ( it does seems perfectly fair to me)......you will have paid that price, plus the price to fix every single disappointing or faulty issue. Life is just "unfair".

You consider your total length of stay in the house. Whatever the number of years you believe that to be? You divide the project cost by that number. Only you can decide the value to you.

I think a lot depends on your network of people you know - we just did a total bath gut for $8k but I knew all the people we needed bc we’ve lived here a long time and built relationships with very skilled tradespeople - I was the GC and the bath was offline for 7 months while we waited patiently for each of them to fit us in - on the other hand we now have a project in another state where we don’t know anyone and I will pay the going rate to get the best people we can - everyone wants the “skilled guy who’s a deal” but unless a lot of research has been done and there’s a fair amount of luck - it can be a risky move

I have done many bathroon renovations for a lot less than 40K but I aslo think where you live is often dictating costs. As lala mentioned often a bit of give and take can cut cost so can you live without the bathroom for a easonable amount of time to save money? I had a renovation company in Calgary for 20 yrs and did many bathroom s for much less than 40K but that was 16 yrs ago I keft, the price of everything including labor has gone up . If you are really concerned get anotther quote .tozmo1 has some great points and honestly some things can be done DIY loike demolition but be aware taking all that stuff to the dump requires at least a trailer and it is expensive to dump building materilas . There are some way to save money but not on a good waterproofing and tile person for sure.

Good...Cheap...Fast

Pick two, you can't have all three.

I would never stand for a 7 month bathroom renovation. I pick good and fast.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC, you are illustrating my point. If you're paying your guys $30 an hour, you're presumably going to need to charge your clients considerably more than that to cover your costs. Minimum wage where I live is $16/hr, and contractors are in demand so they can (and do) charge considerably more than that for their work, as they should. Our plumber is not particularly expensive for our area, but his rates still work out to over $100/hour. The average three-piece bath is going to be a minimum of $6K-$7K right out of the gate (assuming $500 vanity, $500 toilet, $1K tub, $1K tile, $1K permits, $1K drywall/other building materials/paint, $1K light & plumbing fixtures, $1K demo/dumping--and those costs are on the very low end in many parts of the country). So, while I am impressed by those who have successfully done gut remodels in 2023 for under $10K, I'm also deeply skeptical and would be interested in knowing how much they actually paid for each of these components. Even if you assume an optimistic timeline of two weeks of work, you're well under $50 an hour. I'm open to the idea that it's possible if you know the right people, but struggling to see how you could pull it off. More concrete numbers would help because something must be less costly than average somewhere in that mix.

I totally get that Diana - we’re empty nesters and it was for my sons’ bath so no inconvenience to wait but understand that’s not always the case

i would also say every bath is different, we live in a 1920’s tudor so smaller bathrooms on average, suburban houses in our area have huge baths so the reno budget will be very different

Kendrah and artemis, yes he is licensed. He came here from mexico 30 yrs ago and because of some snafu, was unable to get his birth certificate and become a citizen. However, he does pay taxes and claims his wages. The man always has work and seems to do well for himself. On both bathrooms he did for my clients, I sourced all the materials and did the design. All he does is show up and do the work. I'm sure if he had to pick out materials, he'd charge more.

(He may have raised his prices since 2018, I'm sure, but I know for a bathroom like OPs, he wouldn't charge more than 20K. And that's a high guess.He'd still be way below any GC's and their subs) )

Artemis, no, sorry, he doesn't go to No Calif. lol

BTW, in the two I showed you, there were no tubs. I charged both clients a percentage of the materials that I bought. Since I get a contractors deal on tile, I can get things cheaper than other people. I also know how to buy other items and find the best deal. Which is what I did. The vanity used in one of the bathrooms my guy actually got from a pre-made place. the countertop was a remnant. all total, that vanity was about $450. plumbing fixtures (kohler) were anothr $700 or so. The rest was tile (maybe 1000?) window ($250) a light ($150) and labor. No reason to pull a permit for cosmetic changes.

There is no reason why a 5x8 bathroom needs to cost 40K ., especially since OP has bought all of the materials! so, 40K for labor? that's insane and completely over-priced. (maybe for a NYC highrise) I expected a much bigger bathroom for that price.

I am about 45 min north of NYC and there is no way we would charge 40K for that bathroom just for labor. I would say 19-21K ( since I haven't been in the space ) maybe a flex to 25k if there are "issues" or you are adding some specialties - heated floors, heated towel bars, mosaic floors, etc.

My customers will spend 10K - 15K in materials on a bathroom of that size.

Please get other estimates and even get referrals from friends or family. Do all of your homework up front. Taking the time now, will save you money later.

Best of luck!

"And personally as a woman who has always fought for equal pay in jobs that were often male dominated, I have a personal issue with paying a highly qualified person less than market value, but that's just me."

Amen sister!

Nine or so years ago we took a big bathroom down to the studs. Changed the sink location, toilet, etc. The labor was $20k then. I bought all the tiles, separate person did the shower glass. We lived 42 miles north of NYC. I hope that helps you negotiate your labor costs.

i thnk for labor only that is high. Or do you mean the $41K includes the $10K in materials you purchsed. You said you didnt get the tile yet , so does his bid include procuring the tile? If he is getting the tile then depending on what tile youve chosen then that might be why its high.

41k is for labor plus things like drywall, wires etc. It does not include the 10-12k i've already spent. nor does it include tile/grout.

Now I'm confused. What did you buy for 10K if that didn't include the tile?

You have a vanity tower ( doesn't really fit ) That means a move of sink plumbing according to your box mock up. "Wires"......is all electrical. What is included?

Drywall is a come and go of install, tape skim/ repeat skim.

You bought a new toilet, a new tub, and THAT is a plumbing replace as well. You may eventually scald yourself with the old two handle mixer valve.

You bought faucets, under mount sinks? what about the counter top? Is that in the labor number for install?

Nobody can follow what you've got in the numbers, and whether you are referring to you have or have not purchased tile, and WAS tile install in the labor number, despite no selection as yet.

Contractors loathe item by item replacement from demo to finish. You can ask, but until you have it? We don't know. Nobody else's bath is yours, and love Beth to death, but SOCAL is a completely different animal, in terms of sources, AND labor.

In Los Angeles, any significant bathroom or kitchen remoddeling project would require a permit because of electrical and plumbing.

My bathroom was inspected three times before it was approved by the City Inspector.

Most bathroom or kitchen remodels should use a licensed plumber and electrician and they are expensive.

I think @Beth H's cost for a contractor is unrealistically low for the majority of us who need to use *normal* ways of finding competent tradespeople. While cost alone isn't guarantee of good work, hiring the cheapest labor is probably going to increase the odds of having a disastrous experience.

Perhaps she has the proverbial hidden jewel who is charging below market prices but to the extent they ever existed in quantity, they have more or less vanished, retired or died.

I did a gut remodel just prior to the pandemic and ALL of the people hired were Latino first generation immigrants - the GC, plumbers and electricians were all licensed. The rest of the tradespeople hired by the GC were all very skilled. It wasn't cheap but the end product was beautiful, well done with no construction issues except the normal relatively minor glitches which were corrected by the GC.

Also - at least in my experience - the size of a bathroom really has not much to do with the final cost because all of the expensive stuff like plumbing and electrical is the same pretty much for all sized bathrooms. Even tlle work isn't going to be that much more money unless you have a bathroom the size of the Taj Mahal.

One can save on the price of finishes but for the most part you still have the same number of fixtures.

Tozmo1: What did we spend on? This is approximate:

Tub=$1.9k; Toilet/bidet=$1.9k; Vanity/countertop=$3.5k; Cabinet=$.9k; 4 ft. Mirror = $1k; Over mirror lighting= $.6k; Fan/light=$.2; Towel bar/toilet paper holder/grab bars= $.5k; Eve Light switches motion detector/manual Anthem Diverter/showerheads (2) /tub spout/drain/sink faucets/doorknob/air grate cover; new window/window shade=$1.8k

So about $12k;

No tile or tub door yet; those are the major purchases to come. We know what the tile is and where to source it. Waiting on the contractor to give us how much to buy. The only open question is really the tub door. In our previous bathroom the contractor helped us source that.

Note that all items were comparison shopped for and many purchased at a discount. The Tub and Diverter are Kohler; The toilet/bidet is a Toto Washlet+ setup [in our previous bath we went for a Neorest but that would have been double]. Fixtures are Hansgrohe. We've had good experiences with these manufacturers in the past.

We've given the contractor a detailed explain on what we need electrically. It wasn't reflected in the contract so waiting on that. Tile installation is included in the contract.

I imagine most of us are not in NJ that are commenting. The best advice that anyone can giive you is this..... you have one bid, get two more. Or three more. You are never going to get your answer without doing your own area comparisons. You should always do this anyway.

Thank you Design Interior. The current plan is that gave him all our specs plus included fixing the flaws in the previous bathroom. If he is ok with that we will go with him. If not we go for bids.

I would never be 3rd bidder. Too much chance of wasting time.

@Joseph Corbett, LLC - I’ve had several contractors here to discuss and bid on a new deck for our house. The third guy was my favorite and so far, his bid is the best. Maybe third time is a charm….?

Kim - if you move the fixtures (bath, toilet, showers, sinks) you will have a much, much higher labor cost from any contractor. But I still think you need another bid. To me, $41k for labor is high. Only talking to other contractors will you know.

"The current plan is that gave him all our specs plus included fixing the flaws !!!!! in the previous bathroom. If he is ok with that we will go with him. If not we go for bids."

This the SAME guy who left you with flaws?! in the other bath?

Why would you NOT get two more bids? At least one other? You aren't in a huge hurry, and a good dedicated tile store, which I HIGHLY recommend versus online purchase will also figure out your tile square footage requirements. You don't TELL the third bid you have two others ( Sorry Joe ).

Wait a miniute, you are hiring someone who previosly did shoddy work in your home already?

what if he agrees to fix said work and you hire him and then everything including the "fix" is sub par?

You absolutely need to get two more bids.

if someone thinks giving you a bid (#3) is a waste of their time then you don't want them working on your project anyway.

When you call anyone for a bid you don't announce what number bud youre on.

So it seems that while you aren't going crazy on the things you've purchased, you have definitely not gone the budget route. Make sure the contractor you hire is of the same quality as the products you're using. Just as one more reference point, my neighbor just got quotes to replace windows. This is a much larger job yes, but after talking to three contractors the price per window ranged from $500 - $1000 and she already has the windows. I share this to say, replacing a a window alone can be $500 or more of the $41K quote.

I think the takeaway is that you have to be sure you're comparing apples to apples. Scope matters: a cosmetic update isn't going to have the same cost as a down-to-the-studs remodel. Location matters: you can't compare your bids to bids three states over, because the labor market is different. Timing matters: a project five or ten years ago is not going to cost the same as a project today. Finishes matter: you can do the same basic project at many price points depending on the decisions you make around design and materials.

OP, one thing I found helpful was to use the Houzz search feature to limit geographic region and choose the type of project we were doing. Then I looked for spaces similar to mine and looked to see what the scope and price range of the project was, and when the work was done. It's not perfect because the price ranges are huge and Houzz projects do skew to the pricey end, but was still valuable (and sometimes people add the detailed costs in the comments). FWIW, your spending is on par with what we spent last year for a similarly sized new bathroom (but shower vs. tub)--all in with tile and glass, our materials came to about $13K (no tub but that included tile, shower glass, and a new window that all had big price tags). Labor was $33K (but that's in CA so may not be comparable, and there was minimal demo since this was not an existing bath). The other four bids we got were all significantly more than that, and our GC was not great (though thankfully had stellar tile and carpentry subs--the rest was not so hot). That's also a factor to weigh.

I wish you luck. But, am not sure why any of this really matters if you are going to get one bid alone and from a person who did shoddy work. That is just not a smart way to go about business, or shopping, ever. I always get 2-3 bids. (And no, you don't tell them you have gotten other bids.) This is a really big purchase. Would you purchase a car without shopping around? Would you buy a house without shopping around? Not sure why anyone would pay tens of thousands of dollars for anything without shopping around.

We were actually pretty happy with the guys work. That bathroom he did was a sanctuary during the pandemic. 4 years in there are a few issues we need him to address. Only one is of real concern. So yeah we planned to go with him again as long as he addressed the issues. We did competitive the last round and he was higher end but not out of range. This was more than I expected so I’m doing a general price check. Thanks for all the input. Artemis yours particularly.

" He was the higher end" ....."Only one issue is of real concern"

Well. I'm lost. If only because a bath is wet, and there isn't much beyond water and its containment to be concerned about.

The other bathroom is Koehler full digital controlled with 6 outlets of water (rainforest, speakman, handheld, 3 wall panels) in a curb less shower. It has a neorest toilet, heated floor, automated shades and lights including the integrated mirror lights. There is lots beyond water containment to worry about. This new bathroom should be simpler. I hope.

A shower HEAD is irrelevant : ) Be it Speakman, Kohler rain, or handheld. Having not stated the "issue" we can only guess, but digital complications with temperature, or the curbless pitch or other?

I love luxury, but over time many of them turn out to be anything but. The more bells and whistles you put on any product, the more opportunity for ..............yup: ) It's always the ice maker leak in the fridge that buckles the hardwood lol, and those have been with us forever. I still prefer knobs and handles for a lot of other things. Same reason.

Ah, it does shed someight on your situation knowing that you did competitive bid a few years ago. If you like you guy I can see why you’d bring him back. And you already know that he runs more expensive than most.

You liking the guy after a water management issue in the other bath is totally your preference. Many here would never do it again, but it is you who has to be comfortable.

Jan, LOL. You're right about prices here. Labor 'can' be cheaper, and products are much more available given that we are the first stop-port from China. (Tile, stone, and just about everything else) And you're in NY where prices, especially in the city, are just ridiculous!

Most bathroom or kitchen remodels should use a licensed plumber and electrician and they are expensive.

I think @Beth H's cost for a contractor is unrealistically low for the majority of us who need to use *normal* ways of finding competent tradespeople. While cost alone isn't guarantee of good work, hiring the cheapest labor is probably going to increase the odds of having a disastrous experience.

Helen, certain things don't need permits. If nothing is changing in the electrical or plumbing (as far as moving or changing anything structural) a permit is not required. it's just cosmetic. Maybe in your remodel it was required. But even moving an outlet from one side of the sink to the other shouldn't require a permit. (not payint 1500 bucks for a $150 dollar outlet move!) Ditto the plumbing. if the pipes are there and I wanted a wall mount faucet, not a big deal to move it up 2 feet. Drywall, tiling, bringing in a vanity, changing out lights, tiling a shower, can all be done w/o a permit. It just depends.

Your last sentence is true, however, judging from the amount of problems caused by 'real', expensive contractors and builders I've seen on this forum, hiring the most expensive isn't a guarantee either! In fact, I've seen more poor results from that end of the spectrum.

Like I said, I found a gem in the guy I've got. No doubt about it. Does it mean every 'jack of all trades' is going to be like him? Absolutely not. Are there others like him? Probably.

All I was saying that 41K for the labor alone for THAT smaller bathroom seems like an extreme amount of money, especially since she's purchased most of the items needed!

Kim, Why don't you ask the guy what the breakdown is for the labor or see exactly what he's charging you?

As for "you have a real concern w/him", then why use him again? Look to some other people via Yelp (I found my kitchen painter company on that via the 5 stars from over 75 reviews) or some of those online neighborhood referrals.

We are about to start a main bathroom remodel. We live in NJ in the US. It's a pretty straightforward remodel. Replacing a tub, toilet, vanity and cabinet with a tub, toilet, vanity and mirror. No significant construction. New floor and wall tiles. New fan, lights. We've purchased most of the supplies - spending about $10k. This does not include tiles or sheetrock or wires. But everything else. Tonight we got an estimate from our contractor, someone we've worked with before. It was $41k. To me this seems very high.

I agree it sounds extremely high. You've already paid 10K for materials, and now you're looking at 41K for labor. But we are still very much recovering from the pandemic, and that's the reality of what things cost (not that I'm familiar with prices in your area).

If you could wait maybe 2-3 years, I suspect it'll be less. The supply chain is recovering. People who put off having work done over the past couple years will have finished their projects. Competition will lower prices -- maybe not to what they were, but not what they are now.

Could you do demo and hauling away of trash yourself?

The entire house is only worth about $690,000. It doesn't make sense to spend 10% of the house's worth on one minor room.

Well, the bathroom isn't a minor room. Per square foot, it's the most expensive room in your house. Consider that reno costs more than building new; it has to include destroying what's already in place, and it means working within existing confines. But I totally think the same way you do.

Tilers charge more to lay tile in a diagonal pattern, for example. Small tiles? Little niches? Perhaps he is really busy and does not really want the work?

It would be fair to say to your potential contractor: We want to move ahead with this project, but it's just more than we can afford. Do you see any places where we could cut prices?

Kerp the pink. It is back in style. Kohler reintroduced it this year.

Eh, pink is hot right now, largely because Barbie is so big. If I already had a pink bathroom, I would enjoy it /wouldn't change it, BUT if I were rennovating a bathroom (and spending these huge prices), I'd go with neutral colors ... and bring in pink through linens, floor mats and artwork.

Something else will be trendy in a year or two.

Permit requirements are completely different from state to state and even town to town.

In my area they do require anything with electrical to be permited. So something as simple as moving s vanity light from above the mirror to two sconces means a permit must be pulled for it.

Yes, most/all California cities are the same--once you touch plumbing or electrical, you are required to pull a permit. Most jurisdictions allow like for like replacements of toilets/sinks/lights, but only if you don't move the connections or the electrical box. Tiling a floor doesn't typically need one if you aren't touching the sheathing, but tiling a shower or replacing a tub absolutely does. Obviously people can and often do opt to skip permits, but that's very different from a permit not being required.

Design and Artemis, yes, they're all diff.

But sorry. Not pulling a permit to change a light fixture. This damn state bleeds everyone here dry. I'm not giving them another opportunity to get more money when they see this property hasn't been assessed for 30 years! They're already trying to vote out Prop 13 as it is. Anything to raise our property taxes, and that means pulling permits. Plus, pulling one could take weeks, and getting an inspector out weeks if not months. for what? moving a vanity light or switching an outlet? I understand the reason why, but if you have someone who knows what they're doing (and not some hack) I'm not doing it. I would never advise a homeowner to not do it, but I would give both options.

I would never pull one for tiling a shower. that's me. If all you're doing is switching out one tile for another, it falls under cosmetic. enlarging it, moving plumbing, touching exterior walls, etc, that's diff. But tearing down old tile and putting up new w/the proper waterproofing? Nope.

As for a bathtub, switching one out w/no alterations to plumbing or sub floor shouldn't require one either.

That's fair--but my expectation is that if I'm doing unpermitted work, I'm paying considerably less for it. Can't compare one cost to the other. FWIW, permits in CA don't generally raise property taxes unless you're adding square footage or changing the room count, though. (Our new bathroom last year did add $148 to our property taxes because it changed the bathroom count, but that was well worth it IMO since if/when we sell, we get to list it as a legal 2BR/2BA.) For a basic project like a bathroom update with no exterior changes, they're just same-day over the counter where I live with no impact on taxes--everything's online now. There is the added cost, of course, and the fact that you usually have to bring the bathroom up to current code once you've opened walls, so I understand choosing not to go that route.

i hear where youre coming from Beth, 100% . i am not given that liuxury,. i have to by law do everything to the book as a business owner or else if something were to happen it could fall back on me. the same with the contractors i use. Now in my own home? thats different. Have i had my contractors in to add outlets, tile my backsplash, add a light, etc without permitting? sure.

Unless you're tiling a backsplash and BURYING an outlet without killing that outlet at the circuit box? It would be cold day in hell before I expected a contractor to need a tile permit lol.

On North Carolina's home sellers disclosure statement, there is a question: "Is the property to be conveyed in violation of any local zoning ordinances...or building codes (including the failure to obtain proper permits...)?"

I was recently on the potential buyers end of a property that turned out to have much unpermitted work including the lack of a permit and required structural analysis for foundation repairs and considerable electrical work. When pressed and threatened with a lawsuit, the seller admitted all the work had been done by "a local guy who was very good" but no permits were obtained. I spent a lot of money for inspections and time in heated discussions to get due diligence money back. Had I known unpermitted electrical and structural work had been done, I never would have made an offer on the house. NC laws protect sellers more than buyers in real estate transactions, probably different in every state. After this experience I will never knowingly do unpermitted work. As John Lennon said, "Karma's going to get you."

@Jan the reason our city requires permits for bathroom shower/tub tiling (but not for floors) isn’t for the tile itself but for the waterproofing underneath. They didn’t come check tiling at all for our project but did require a shower pan flood test and shower wall waterproofing check before we were approved to cover with tile. Despite the fact that I was pretty well educated about waterproofing from spending too much time here and on tile boards so had spelled out exactly what we wanted, our GC still did it his “usual way” instead, which didn’t pass inspection. In that particular case we got our money’s worth because the corrections gave us leverage to get it addressed. Better to just skip that by having a contractor who does it right the first time (see also: why I’m looking for someone different to do bathroom #2!) but it was helpful nonetheless as an added check.

foundation repairs and considerable electrical work.

Obviously these things require permits. No one above mentioned foundation and 'considerable electrical'. we are talking about changing an outlet, not adding a new panel or running all new wiring. Pulling out a tub isn't structural unless you have to repair rotted joists and subfloors.

I was simply sharing my experience and what I took from it, not comparing it to others' experiences. I recently gutted a primary bath including a total shower redo. I had a licensed contractor who knows the code do it. He said nothing required a permit as it was all a one for one replacement, including totally re-tiling the shower. Every place has different permitting requirements. I'm following the ones in my area, big or small and explaining why.

Me too.sounds expensive. But not for your area.i got a quote for half. But I bet we pay 30k.im in ms