Hi Weston,

I will continue our discussion here in this new message part, with comments on your last message.

"Yes, this plant produced loads of disc florets. Many of the other plants nearby had plenty of pollen in their disk florets, but this plant had anthers that (to appearances) were empty of pollen."

Yikes! An anther without pollen is a serious thing. Without rubbing it to verify that there were no pollen grains, that would be a bit iffy from just looking at the thing. But if the anthers didn't have any pollen, then their containing florets would be non-functional, and probably not develop a seed at their base. I'm not sure you would want seeds from a zinnia like that. Its attractive coloration was probably due to a white parent and the resulting "snowflake" structural visual appearance (with no white pigment involved) that gives a zinnia bloom a unique appearance like this example of mine. You can probably re-capture the effect it had that you liked by further crossing with white zinnias. Find a good white, like a selection from Benary's Giants.

" In your experience, is there normally a strong correlation between a withered stigma and successful embryo development? If you make 18 pollinations, and you see all 18 of the stigmas wither in the next day or two, would you expect to have 18 good embryos in a few weeks?"

Yes, although I probably wouldn't go to the trouble to count them.

All is not lost on your "breeder quality" zinnia. It does have nice straight petals, that give it a good look. But don't depend on it exclusively. You can do better (in my opinion). Look for some breeder-quality white zinnias to cross stuff with. Scabiosa flowered zinnias can have some good variations. I particularly liked a "Water Lily" zinnia look.

This new message string Part should make this thread easier to load. Always glad to hear from you.

ZM

Hello again, Weston,

" So another thought...

As the seeds were developing, I would occasionally pull back slightly on a petal to observe the developing achene and see if there were embryos forming. The motion was very gentle and it didn't dislodge the developing achene in any way. However, I wonder if this motion would have caused the developing embryo to abort. I should experiment more with this. "

Only if you broke the connection at the base of the developing seed (achene). I have never done exactly what you describe, but I have done plenty of disturbance "picking" green seeds for an early-start immediate planting. And I didn't notice any harm to the parent bloom from doing that.

ZM

Fascinating. Eager to keep experimenting.

If this happens again I should inspect the anthers more closely under a microscope to see exactly what's going on.

Hi Weston,

The microscope sounds like a good idea. In the past, I have depended strongly on finding self-ed seeds at the base of anthers. Can you set up to take photos through the microscope? Some microscope photography would really "class this place up." I am thinking about getting a microscope, and if I do, it will be one I can take photos through—maybe even video. I have been meaning to learn about video. And video through a microscope would really be something. I just now noticed there is a button for posting the video here.

Incidentally, insects could be a factor with the anthers.

More later.

ZM

We are currently using a compound microscope that can magnify up to 400x. It has a mount for a camera, but we do not currently have a camera.

Am I correct that you are finding selfed seed even on indoor zinnias that have had no pollinator visits?

Thank you so much,

Weston

Hi Weston,

"Am I correct that you are finding selfed seed even on indoor zinnias that have had no pollinator visits?"

Yes indeed. And I have growing seedlings from those obligatory selfed anther seeds. I planted them as green seeds to speed things up. I did not wait for the seeds to mature to the normal brown stage. I have successfully grown zinnias from green seeds for many years. Their parents had tubular petals, so I think at least some of them will have tubular petals when they bloom in a month or two.

ZM

OK. Glad your still having some progress at your new place!

Hi Weston,

I have a comment about your recent breeder zinnia, and how to treat future situations like that. Obviously, with any breeder zinnia, you want to get as many seeds as possible. The following strategy might be useful. I hope that the failure of anthers to set seeds problem can be resolved. I will have comments about that problem in a future message.

It would be desirable to use the pollen to self the petal stigmas and also to set anther seeds, sort of like the old saying of "having your cake and eating it too".

By the time the pollen is pushed out of the anther (disk floret), the anther is probably already pollinated, and you could dip the tip of an artist's brush into that pollen to pollinate the petal (ray floret) stigmas. From your photo, it looked like you had a lot of pollen-bearing disk florets, which could have supplied pollen to pollinate the stigmas of the ray florets (petals). An artist's brush might be an ideal tool to use that excess pollen. Using that technique, you might get a lot of seeds from a breeder-quality bloom, and it could be all the better if you got several blooms per plant.

ZM

Good morning. Thanks so much for the additional thoughts.

I've got some cloned specimens of that breeder just starting to bloom now. So, I should be able to get another round of experimentation. I've also got some other zinnias coming into bloom, so I'd like to make more careful observations regarding seed set percentage success rate.

I hope you are getting a taste of spring weather! We had a little bit last week.

Weston

Hi Weston,

I have had indoor zinnias in bloom for over a month, and some second-generation seedlings are coming up now. I have gotten some interesting flower forms here in the apartment.

That bloom was chock-full of anther seeds and had very few petal (ray) seeds. I have been wondering if your experiences with the anther (disk) seed set might have something to do with some unusual trace element deficiency.

There are several possibilities, but one that occurred to me as a special case is Nickel. Nickel is an absolute requirement for plant growth. Still, it is almost never included in nutrient formulas, even those that include a lot of trace elements, because soils almost always have enough Nickel. Years ago, I bought some Nickel Nitrate from an online chemical house that sells to amateur chemists as an alternative to dropping a nickel into every pot. Any Nickel form, Sulfate, Chloride, or even Chelate, should be effective. Even just the coins might work.

But if you are using something besides ordinary garden soil in your greenhouse, your greenhouse plants may not get enough Nickel. There are a couple of books that I think are worth having for anyone involved in growing plants in other than an outdoor in-soil environment.

Handbook of Plant Nutrition, First Edition, edited by Allen V. Barker and David J. Pilbeam, CRC

Handbook of Plant Nutrition, Second Edition, edited Allen V. Barker and David J. Pilbeam, CRC

Both editions are worth having because many of their articles had different writers from the first to the second edition. I think the first edition is still relevant. I would have included links to Amazon, but apparently, Houzz does not allow links to Amazon. Both editions are available on Amazon; at least, they were the last time I looked. Both books have a section for Essential Elements: Macronutrients and Essential Elements: Micronutrients. Both editions also have a section for Beneficial Elements, such as Aluminum, Cobalt, Selenium, Silicon, Sodium, Vanadium, and Lanthanides in the second edition. Wow! Who knew?? I actually supplied some Silicon in the form of Waterglass (Sodium Silicate) for stronger plants and stiffer stems. Silicon is also available in the form of the commercial product Pro-Tekt, which I am now using instead of the Water Glass, which I ran out of on the farm.

The details of plant nutrition are fascinating, and I will "keep my eye out" for a third edition.

Whether your anther seed set problem has anything to do with nutrition remains to be seen.

I need to order some more chemicals, including some chelates.

More later.

ZM

Yes. This makes sense. One way to test this would be to grow some clones outdoors this summer. If we get full fertility outdoors, then we've got an environmental factor of some kind at play with the indoor specimen(s).

How do you plan to save seed from the zinnia in the photograph? If you were to rely on disc floret seed for many generations, the line would eventually become inbred, and it also seems like this practice would select for singles rather than double blooms.

It seems like I've gotten much better seed set in the blooms I've pollinated in the past month or two (from other plants). I'm doing a small-scale experiment currently to help establish an expected success rate for controlled pollinations. Having a benchmark will be helpful as I gauge the fertility of different lines--and even different ploidy levels and interspecific hybrids.

Sincerely,

Weston

Hi Weston,

"How do you plan to save seed from the zinnia in the photograph?"

I sort of pushed the green seeds out of the flowerhead with my thumbnail. I plant the green seeds as they are (still green) or dry them for later planting. As a standard practice, I nick the green seeds to allow water transfer more quickly. I do some "surgery" to pollinate or cross-pollinate tubular petalled zinnias.

Some of the petal tubes snap off like green beans, and others need a sharp knife to encourage them.

"If you were to rely on disc floret seed for many generations, the line would eventually become inbred, and it also seems like this practice would select for singles rather than double blooms."

I think there are successful obligate "selfers" in the trade. Aren't Sweet Peas obligate selfers ? And Sweet Pea blooms, like some Daisies, are "singles" with no one complaining. Some people complain that Burpee apparently discontinued their single "Forecast" zinnia. Forecast was on the cover of their catalog a few years ago. Although people don't seem to be complaining that their zinnias should look like this.

"Having a benchmark will be helpful as I gauge the fertility of different lines--and even different ploidy levels and interspecific hybrids."

I agree. More later.

ZM

Hello again, Weston,

I'm going to feed a little Nickel to a few of my indoor zinnia seedlings to see if there is a noticeable effect. I purchased a small sample of Nickel sulfate from Amazon, and will make up a dilute stock solution of weak Nickel and apply it to a few of my indoor zinnias to see if there is a noticeable effect. I would have gotten some Nickel nitrate from a different source, but the shipping cost was going to exceed the cost of the chemical itself. I am also feeding my zinnia seedlings a little Potassium silicate along with other standard nutrients. I still prefer tubular petalled zinnias.

More later. It feels Spring-like, but I think some cool weather is coming.

ZM

Wow, I'm eager to hear how the plants respond to added Nickel. Thanks for the update.

Hi zen_man! I appreciated the update as to where you are now growing zinnias and will check in to get tips on growing zinnias indoors. Glad to see you are continuing the zinnia series.

I don't see many varieties for sale in my area and started 4 varieties in my greenhouse in late Feb and early March. (Preciosa White, Zydeco White, Short Stuff Orange, Zinderalla Peach). Last frost is hopefully mid April and I hope to plant them out in 3-4 weeks. So far, they are doing well and some are at the point where I'd like to pinch them, but the third and fourth set of true leaves are too close for me to separate cleanly. In the picture below, the fourth set is inside the third set. I'd appreciate your input on pinching and assume I just need to be patient.

I'd also appreciate any suggestions on feeding/care. They are started in Pro-Mix BX and I have not fed them anything yet. I'm trying to water only in the morning and when necessary. Lights are on a timer, on at 6:15 AM off around 7:30 PM.

Extraneous dahlia shot - I thought zinnia's were the fastest growing. This dahlia is towering over the zinnias.

Hello oldbat2be,

Welcome, welcome. These are good-looking zinnia seedlings. I have never grown dahlias from seed (probably my loss), so I don't have any experience with them. Dahlia blooms can easily exceed a foot in diameter, so they far exceed zinnias in that regard. And dahlias are perennial, while zinnias are annual, so they are different in that regard as well. Their color range is similar (no true blue ones).

"They are started in Pro-Mix BX and I have not fed them anything yet."

I also use Pro-Mix BX, and its nutrients will start to run out soon. I first realized the Pro-Mix nutrient limitation when a noticeable Calcium deficiency developed in my indoor seedlings. Your water source may supply some nutrients. If you are using "city water," it may be Fluoridated (for your teeth) and Chlorinated for biological safety. Chlorine is a trace element for plants. They don't need the Fluorine, but they can tolerate it.

I had purchased some Calcium nitrate crystals for my indoor growing, and I moved a small bag of Calcium Nitrate here to the apartment, along with a bag of Better-Gro Orchid Better-Bloom. Silicon is one of the elements that is "beneficial" to plants as it strengthens cell walls. Rice growers consider Silicon to be a necessity for strong stems to keep those seedheads out of the irrigation water. Silicon presumably makes stronger flower plants.

I am currently experimenting with Nickel (a required element for plants that is naturally supplied in the garden soil), which, as far as I know, is absent in Pro-Mix. I have no idea what a Nickel deficiency looks like in a zinnia. Lots to learn. You must supply some soluble nutrients to your Pro-Mix or get your plants into garden soil as soon as practical. More later.

ZM

Hi ZM - Thank you. We are on well water, so no added nutrients. I've ordered some Better-Gro Orchid Better-Bloom. Regarding soluble nutrient application, I have Hi-Yield Calcium-Nitrate available locally. Do you have a preferred silicon addititve?

What would you recommend as a feeding solution ratio of each, per gallon of water? I'm assuming I should feed through the roots.

OB

Hi OB,

" Do you have a preferred silicon addititve? "

I currently use SUPERthrive Pro-Tekt 0-0-3, which I purchased from Amazon. It is a liquid that I dilute with water to feed through the roots. I think any liquid Potassium Silicate, properly diluted with water, would be fine, either through the roots or possibly even in a foliar feed. The company that produced the "water glass" product I used to use went out of business or vanished. Take some care when using potassium silicate because it is highly alkaline, and plants use it only in small amounts, mainly in their cell walls.

ZM

Grown from seeds of diploid plant flowers onto which I had added pollen from tetraploid plant flowers. Are these plants recognizably triploid?

Hi, four,

"Are these plants recognizably triploid?"

They look like specimens of Zinnia peruviana (Peruvian Zinnia).

I am not even close to being able to detect ploidy from a photo. I might be able to detect tetraploidy from a microscopic view of leaf hairs (twice as "fat" as diploid leaf hairs) or stomata (leaf-breathing pores that appear as "fat lips.") I have zero expertise in detecting a Zinnia triploid visually or from a photograph. I am way out of my area of expertise here, but those look like diploid non-hybridized specimens of Peruvian Zinnia.

As they say, I could be wrong. Do you have any other zinnias growing? I have yet to purchase a microscope to detect Zinnia ploidy. This photo represents my current indoor zinnia blooms. They have tubular petals, but they are not great specimens.

ZM

www.houzz.com/discussions/6346156/it-can-be-fun-to-breed-your-own-zinnias-part-57

> " However, my best zinnia plants were the triploids."

Hello again, four,

That photo of mine showed umpteen blooms and umpteen branches, and if your photo had been anything like that, I would have at least suspected triploidy. But your photo looks nothing like that and, like I said above, looks like Peruvian Zinnias. There is nothing in your photo to give a clue about ploidy. The absence of multiple branching could suggest non-triploidy.

I plan to produce more triploid zinnias in the future. I am growing some tetraploids (three different varieties) and some diploids indoors.

ZM

Hello everyone,

Well, a killing freeze ended my outdoor zinnias. I will try to recover some green seeds from them. I will be doing experimentation with indoor growing this Winter. Tossing in another zinnia photo.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.

ZM

>' Is it cerise? ' ___ Yeah, I'd say so.

My annuals are done for here too except for a few that I stuck on the sunny side of my walkout basement. Winter gardening is good for the soul. Happy Thanksgiving!

Ooh, I like that color, Zen!

Happy holidays everyone!

ZM

Hi everyone,

I have a few zinnias growing here in the apartment under 4-foot fluorescent fixtures. I will probably plant a few zinnia seeds in-ground as the weather gets a bit warmer. I haven't noticed any boost in plant growth from the added Nickel trace element experiment. Our municipal water comes from the Marais Des Cygnes river, which comes through our city, and the city water may have traces of Nickel in it. This was a zinnia from a previous year. It had colored pollen florets.

ZM

Hi Ella,

It's been a while since I logged in here. This is the 58th part, so there are 57 previous parts.

My current interest is triploid zinnias, which you can create by crossing a diploid zinnia with a tetraploid zinnia. We both are having trouble navigating this forum. Maybe a Houzz representative will come to our rescue, but I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

ZM

Right, we mustn't hold her breath. :-)

Zen, do you still think of selling some cultivar to a company?

Hi four,

I gave up on that possibility when I retired. I live in an apartment now,

with no significant garden space available. When I was living in a rented

farmhouse, I had several acres of gardening space available, and could

and did grow zinnias by the thousands. Even if I were still on the farm,

I am too old to do significant physical labor. I didn't do anything that a

seed company couldn't do and improve on.

ZM

Hello again, Ella,

I must compliment you on your clever way of leaving a message when this forum would not let you leave a message. Most ingenious. We will have an easier time of it if we communicate over at the National Gardening association, where they do have staff who will help you with the technical details of communicating. Click on this link. This is all very experimental for me, but I hate to see you kept from communicating.

ZM

Zen -- nice to "see" you checking in. Your post made me a little sad, though. I imagine it must have been difficult to go from a few acres and a passion for breeding zinnias to an apartment coupled with physical limiitations. It will probably happen to all of us at some point. Are you able to container garden, at least?

I am wondering -- does the National Gardening Association have forums similar to this site?

Hi porkchop,

Yes, the National Gardening Association does have forums with similar (in my opinion, better) functionality,.

Houzz is and was never gardening-oriented and they purchased this garden forum merely to get more "eyes on" their product, which is focused on commercial home improvement. It may not be an accident that "Houzz" and "house" are similar words.

The following link is to one of my GardenWeb messages at the National Gardening Association. Click on it to judge for yourself about the National Gardening Association.

https://garden.org/thread/view/34248/It-can-be-fun-to-breed-your-own-zinnias/

ZM

^^Thanks, I will!