what is root rot ,,I see that term thrown around a lot. Was the old planted too deep ? Watered too much ? . . . . . plant shallow , water when needed , GO

ron

Was the old tested for some sort of pathogen ?

All I know is the Abies lowiana (old) declined rapidly and when I raked off the mulch around it, all the fine roots along the surface of the soil were covered in white fungus and were very frail and weak and broke without resistance if disturbed.

The Abies was planted a little too shallow if anything and needed a stake & string to stabilize it against the wind.

I hardly watered the tree at all because it rained every day or every night for weeks on end.

I don't have all the scientific names, but that tree is documented to be susceptible to root rot and had something in the soil under the mulch that turned the roots into the consistency of mush.

Aren't the pathogens that cause root rot kinda present all thru a given area? I dunno.

That was my thinking too.

And the Abies l. is known for its susceptibility, and it was unbelievably wet here.

When I look up P. glauca densata, there's notes that it's acclimated to drier sites, more so than the straight species.

My thoughts are I'll have to move some dirt to be safe, but I don't know myself what's necessary.

I won't get to it today so if anyone comes up with something LMK. ;-)

My understanding of phytophthora root rot is that it only infects the plant only if the perfect conditions are met for it(excessive moisture, terrible drainage) and doesn't spread like wildfire. I would dig out as much of the surrounding soil where your abies was like you said and fill the hole back with native soil and make your whole mound couple inches higher with topsoil(may take at least 10-15 bags looking at the mound) and plant the new spruce there. I am not an expert though so this is just a suggestion based from some of experiences and what I've learned. Hoping some more experts share their knowledge.

Thanks Heruga.

I'm pretty much thinking the same way.

It's not that big of an area (32-36" dia?) and is a small tree so I can be glad about that. :-)

If you look at the last picture of the planting site, the stake with the red tag to the right, has better soil than the old area and it's near the old site.

ime: I can remove the sod (top 2"), Then dig out the top 8-10" of topsoil and place that in 5 gal. pails or onto a sheet of plastic.

Next dig out the old spot and toss soil directly into the that new empty hole. Carry pails or drag plastic with new soil to the old hole, refill old hole with the new soil.

I never or hardly ever use bagged topsoil and generally when I dig to plant, I'll bury the sod at the bottom of the hole. Somehow, I always end up with a mound that's higher than the surrounding grade that I started with. Even when I step on it to pack it down.

But it's easy to take a few extra shovels full, from the donor hole. You can always put it back or use the bagged stuff there to level it out if needed.

The organisms are going to be throughout the garden; the question is more whether something about the original site promoted root rot in the Abies and would promote it again in another species. For over 10 years now I've tried to plant anything remotely root rot sensitive on a slope, or on a mound, and it seems to make a difference. YMMV.

Sorry about your fir, in the 'misery loves company' department, I just lost a very rare broad leaved evergreen to root rot. You might look at the current drought map and think my area at the tip of the Ches Bay was escaping the drought in much of the upper South/Delmarva area. BUT the rain has come only in heavy downpours of > 2", which makes Phytophthora go wild. So this is going to be my worst year in a few years for this kind of thing.

Thanks, david.

Could've been part of the problem here.

When it rained, it was hard driving rains a lot of lightning too.

Maybe lightning had something to do with it.

This was also a place where I recently removed remnants of a dead (pine?) stump that was in the ground there for years.

The trees I have here that grow where the ground seeps and have high amounts of annual rainfall, like the Callitropsis and Thuja p. didn't mind three months of wet weather at all.

They might have more trouble with the hot dry spells destined to be here yet this season.

So, onward and upward we go. :-)

Tomorow I'll be moving a wheelbarrow full of dirt.

I've heard about the cardboard box method and do have a box somewhere around here, but I think by exchanging the soil from another spot, I'll be removing any 'hot spot' that may be present from the Abies recently succumbing to whatever it was there,

thus, it should be like starting anew in another part of the yard, lessening the chance of it overwhelming a new plant right off the bat.

And I won't use fungicide or anything that kills bacteria in the new soil, because it will kill the mycorrhizae fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with the roots of many kinds of plants.

What can go wrong? ;-)

Bill, lightning produces nitric acid when mixed w/rain, so that's essentially fertilizer.

Started out early this morning, before the 'heat of the day' arrived.

Removed the sod and filled some pails with fresh soil from a new spot in the yard.

Being the lowiana had slowed its decline, at least visually, I decided to do something with it.

Just for experimental purposes only of course. ;-)

First, I dug around the tree, putting the old soil in the new hole.

Got the shovel under it and lifted it out onto something I could carry.

Dropped the whole root ball into a pail of water and rinsed the soil off exposing the bare roots.

I didn't think to get a picture of the roots, but they were black in color and appearing not developed, if at all from when it was planted.

I rinsed them off with the garden hose sprayer and potted it up in a (1 gal?) nursery pot using Al's 511 (miracle media mix imho). ;-)

If it can recover, it will recover in a fast-draining bark mix that draws air into the mix every time it gets watered, and this mix will need frequent watering on hot days. This step is optional. :-)

Leveled the old soil now in the new hole and replaced the sod (think jigsaw puzzle).

A little raking and garden hose work on 'Jet' and you can't hardly tell there was a hole there.

The new tree went in about 5" above grade and I'm not sure with my porous sand if that is really necessary.

The biggest hurdle for this P. glauca densata is I had to do more root surgery than I cared to do. The good thing is it looked to have just broken bud like it recently came out of the lockers at the nursery. But if it does fail, for $8.95, there's still a few pallets load available at the nursery.

Picea glauca 'densata':

I didn't think it a bad idea for some sunshade, until it settles in (hitting 80's every day now).

/////

Wow, that was quick! That's impressive labor, especially in the heat of July. The raised mound looks great, with the improved drainage I doubt your spruce would suffer the same way your abies did. Even if its sand I don't think it would hurt to have it even higher, as long as you keep up on the watering which I know you do. Good luck and keep us informed on it and also your newly potted abies.

The Abies lowiana continued to decline.

Today I checked the roots and there's no evidence of regeneration and even if there was, I'm not interested in spending time nursing a sick seedling along anyways.

7-23-2024:

Apparently the Picea glauca 'Densata' has survived my planting practices with no browning or stress damage and is now setting buds for next season.

:-)

How much shade are you giving it a day? have you had good luck with this practice with other conifers? (giving new plantings forced shade until its roots settle)

Generally speaking, conifers are for the most part 'Full Sun' trees (with exceptions).

But when you buy root bound plants like I do, with woody 'J' roots and curly Q's that get cut away (called root surgery), the sun and heat this time of year, can/will do them in.

I kept it moist too with water every 2-3 days to compensate for the diminished root mass.

Last week I changed over to cheap burlap surround, that blocks 50-70% sunlight (just guessing percentage).

And lately been letting full sun in for a couple hours in the morning and last several hours before sunset.

Any new plantings will appreciate sun protection until the roots are functioning full throttle.

My meager sunshade below.

8-31-2024:

Update:

The Picea densata did nota.

When I first got back from a 12-day trip, it still looked good.

It had previously been in the ground and watered regularly for almost a month, and I left the sunshade on it the entire time I was gone. And I soaked it down good before I left.

I had people come on day 5 and day 9 to water so it didn't get over watered, I'm sure.

I noticed almost immediately upon return when a few needles fell from one of the upper branches when I watered it. The rest of the needles seemed fine when I checked them, but the tree continued to decline for the next week and a half until it looked like this today.

My first thought was that the mound I had put to raise the tree was the culprit. My ground dries out extremely fast here and I noticed it dried out even faster by using a hill like that. But still.

It started near the top and worked its way down which generally means lack of water.

The wind was blowing today, and the tree wiggled in the wind like it was loose in the ground.

I haven't pulled it yet to check the roots and the bare branches are curling downward like they are drying out.

Could this possibly another case of root rot?

I wouldn't give up quite yet......

Okay, Thanks beng!

It's no hurry and really this spot really doesn't need anything, except maybe a low growing shrub.

But if there's a chance, I'll let the spruce go until spring before I do anything drastic.

How about now?

Does it look any better? ;-)

Hmm. Not looking too good. Perhaps time to give it an honorable burial.

Yeah, it went downhill fast.

Not too late to plant something else but getting towards the end of growing season for me.

I think I'll wait until next spring to see if I can find something nice that will work.

I may have a couple of plants that need replacing by then.

:o)

9-6-24:

Your guess is as good as mine.

It appears this Picea has been dead for weeks, perhaps since shortly after planting. There are no healthy-looking roots and almost all of the fine root's that were present at time of planting, seem to have disappeared (it came out of the ground with no resistance so maybe they just rotted off).

Could it be the aggressive root pruning at planting time.

Could it be it was sort of a runt and did'nt have the steam to grow on (it didn't seem as well developed as the rest of the pallet).

Could it be the dreaded pathogen from the depths, lurking below, I just don't know.

It does have the same silvery color coating on the skin on the roots as the Abies L., but I don't know if that's even relevant.

I knew it wouldn't grow new roots until next spring but there were enough fine roots at the time of planting that I thought they would continue to draw moisture and elongate to keep the tree alive until winter.

It wasn't a good specimen in the first place, so chances are I simply killed it, or it was not strong enough to survive.

I removed the mulch and smoothed over the planting site.

:-)

Pretty funny. The hackberry will like the additional space....

It started out as a 'holding area' and not enough room really for a tree but after two losses in a row, I wouldn't feel good about another planting.

I love your sense of humor, Bill. As well as the pragmatism!

Sorry to hear that Bill. I agree with you that spot is definitely dangerous...

Thanks, Heruga.

Those two trees that died are no big deal. I'm out about $25 and tbh, Abies concolor is just another large forest tree with no unique features to make it 'stand out' above any other large conifer. Same for the densata.

I've been planting trees and shrubs here for over ten years now and when it gets to the point you find yourself scratching your head trying to find another spot to plant, it makes me feel like I've finally accomplished my original goal of populating this once desolate, empty yard.

Another thing, preparing and starting new plants on poor, sandy soil with predictable summer dry spells is a lot of work. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind the work at all, and I've enjoyed the journey and felt a real satisfaction doing everything up to this point.

Most of what I have is getting mature enough there's not much work involved anymore, especially when it rains enough during the summer. The crappy soil and climate though, limits the development of things but that doesn't bother me because I know I'll never live long enough for anything here to become a beautiful huge specimen. I need to travel to see those kinds of things. ;-)

The new purchases this spring were because I thought it would be nice to try some plants that aren't so common to this area. And even though I bought what I think have a chance here, this is yet to be seen if they can grow here.

And the biggest limitation in my septentrional location is the lack of real choices that would be different from what I already have. You need at least zone 5 to do any real 'collecting'.

And I really don't want to zone push to any big extent because I know from experience, you might luck out for a couple/few years, then wake up to a throwback winter that desiccates all the time, money provided.

So, after a valiant effort, I think I've established enough things to fill this yard that will endure the cold winters even if nothing really improves climate wise.

I still plan on getting a Tsuga canadensis to be a permanent resident here and I'll do what I can to help these new additions survive the winters (I'll post up about that stuff later) but other than that, I'm almost looking forward to NOT starting anymore new plants here and only tending to what I already have.

Bill

Vocabulary word of the day: septentrional. Thanks, Bill!

I've been septentrional my whole life and didn't even know it. Thank you!

Your Tsuga looks very healthy and glad to see it making something of its self. However, I can't let your comment about A. concolor pass. I understand your frustration with your recent attempt, but the result was almost predictable. Find yourself a seedling (not variety Lowiana!) and I think you'll be surprised with the results. It's not just another giant forest tree -- it's a beautiful, interesting conifer that competes with Colorado Blue Spruce for color.

It seems to me you've done an amazing job of populating your slice of heaven with an interesting mix of plants. Kudos. However, I have to question this: "And the biggest limitation in my septentrional location is the lack of real choices that would be different from what I already have. You need at least zone 5 to do any real 'collecting'." I may be a bit warmer than you, but there are a lot of z3/4 plants that come next spring will energize you. Here are a few for your consideration:

1. Abies koreana
2. Picea omorika
3. Pinus densiflora
4. Pinus koraiensis
5. Acer mandschuricum
6. Acer triflorum
7. Sorbus alnifolia
8. Magnolia tripetala

Keep planting!

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement maackia.

' It's not just another giant forest tree -- it's a beautiful, interesting conifer that competes with Colorado Blue Spruce for color.'

But still, 75 ft mature height is a 'Giant Forest tree' no matter how you look at it and that includes both A. concolor and P. pungens grown in cultivation. You have to remember, I'm working with a smaller urban lot, which has limits.

And when I said. 'You need at least zone 5 to do any real collecting'. I was referring mostly to the really cool dwarfs and miniatures like Chamaecyparis obtusa ‘Chirimen’ and Cryptomeria japonica ‘Cristata’. Now that's my idea of 'real collecting'. ;-)

You are a bit warmer than me, but I am assuredly a bit more Septentrional than you making me a bit more vulnerable to the unexpected polar vortexes and cold snaps. :-)

I'd agree w/maackia that concolor fir is a good fir. Below is the route I take to brother's place in Bedford, PA -- this is on Rt 326 near there. Somebody smart planted a bunch of concolors, and they look fine. Notice near center behind a decrepit CO blue spruce! Of course, your question is can it take your cold, but North Amer firs are typically very cold tolerant.

1-14-2025:

After pondering the now historical events of last season, and if my three 'zone pushers' survive, along with the new red pine planted last fall, I'll only have two vacancies to fill this spring. One is the above 'dangerous' zone, and the other is a seed grown Thuja occidentalis that never recovered from a bout of mold that began a couple of seasons ago.

Not ruling out another Abies concolor but I want to see what's available at my favorite haunts next spring and what the prices are doing.

I'll be looking for Cotoneaster lucidus for one spot.

If all else fails, my traveling this June will allow me to check out some of the sellers in the St. Cloud area, so you never know what I'll come home with instead, maybe some new additions? ;-)

One thing for sure, I'll be wanting as close to zone hardy as I can get.

Which reminds me, speaking of Septentrional and polar vortexes, here's a map of temperatures this AM.

The grey area showing below zero temps (high pressure) that moved in during the night.

This vortex is undiluted Arctic air as it moves in. Now today the sun has a chance to modify it before it moves SSE. So, we generally get more of the 'real cold' more often than most do in the upper Midwest (fun facts to know and tell). :-)

And just as an example, here's the map a few hours later (11:00 am).
We had -15 this am.

-17F the other morning in Canaan Valley, WV about 70 miles southwest of me. It was 3F here.

Yes, and if I knew here was a solid z4, it might be different.

It wasn't too many years ago (5-6?) we had -46 one night mixed in with a few -30's, so even though I'm honored with the usda upgrade to zone 4a, I need to be a little skeptical.

Almost all of my plantings are zone hardy for my location. The few newer acquisitions, that could possibly be lost, are not a major setback and there's always zone hardy stuff for sale around here for replacements. ;-)

5-20-2025:

Just and update on what I ended up buying for my spring planting season.

After months of researching the www with zone and frost hardiness in mind, I called around to nurseries within 50 miles of my area to see what was available.

More than one, when asked if they had Abies concolor said no, they tried them for a while and found they weren't quit hardy enough for our area. Drats!!!

Next, the only place that had Cotoneaster was in battle lake. So, I took the drive and after they corrected me for my pronunciation of Cotoneaster (I said 'Cotton easter' and they said 'Co-tony Aster') Both pronunciations are acceptable btw but after the 3rd time I asked if we were still talking about the same plant, white blossoms, black fruit, Autumn colors, Z2 and they said yes, that's the one. ;-)

I finished that trip with 1-Picea densata, 1-Cotoneaster lucidus, 2-Mugo pine 'pumilio' and a J. Chinensis 'Sea Green' and was happily on my way with everything on my list checked off.

I rejected a Microbiota decussata bc I thought it was a big price for a small plant.

Later and unexpectedly, I had reason to visit Brainerd/Baxter area, and of course I can't go there without at least seeing what the other 'Berg' (with a 'u') has to offer.

There's always a 'TREES' sign in the back and pallets of overgrown seedlings in the 4" x 6" deep band pots (I saw an octagonal tag with the name of the nursery and should've taken a picture and will have to stop again bc the name eludes me at the moment).

I did see a stapled paper tag with a pen marked 'Normand' on one pallet. Several years ago, that name would've meant nothing to me, but something clicked and with newfound vigor, I examined the pallets until I found the nicest specimen of those firs (even though I knew what the roots of a 28" tall fir seedling in a pot band would look like).

So, I did 5 plantings over 4 days and after a day moving a 200lb Hydrangea Macrophylla root ball 75 yards to the back yard, on Saturday, I helped my son plant 8-30 gal potted trees and the next Mon. I was planting the Fir. My age is painfully becoming apparent, but I'll be fine after a few days. ;-)

The best part of this story; we are now getting the first 'multiple day rain' in ~5 years. And there's already almost 2" in the gauge with more ahead; at a time of year, that it still benefits the leafing out and branch elongating period. We needed a good 'root soaker'.

Photos to follow.

Disclaimer: I am not a garden 'Designer', never claimed to be and never played one on TV. ;-)

Over the last 12 years that I lived here, I've enjoyed this yard as a retirement 'hobby' and have always enjoyed planting things and gardening most of my life.

I added two more P. mugo 'pumilio' next to the one I planted (right most) last season, just to fill in the area a little more, with plants that can endure our harsh winter winds. I was going to add the J. chinensis 'Sea Green', in the middle just to break up the 'Look' but didn't think the juniper could endure that spot very well.

The new Picea 'densata' is apparent above the new mugos and has grown well in the last couple of weeks (it's a few feet further south and east from the 'dead zone' from last season even though I wasn't afraid of planting there again. The mugo, left, is partially in that zone).

This is where I transplanted the H. macrophylla 'bloom struck' (center) earlier. It begins to receive shade in midafternoon to late afternoon and into the evening.

The Cotoneaster (lower left) is in a much sunnier location, at least for now.

The Cotoneaster has grown well and is blooming since planted 2 weeks ago.

I didn't have a good spot for the J. chinensis, so it got put in the ground in a spot it may stay for quite some time, adding to the snow fence capability in the yard.

And last but not least, the Abies Nordmanniana <cheers>.

Not a concolor but a Fir after all. ;-)

I put it back in a corner as a protected spot to help with establishment as recommended by several sources at various universities.

:^)

And just to add:

The reason I chose the spots I did for the blue hydrangea and cotoneaster was; it is exposed for viewing to the apartments across the ROW. I'm always getting compliments from those folks and wanted to add some color to that part of the yard anyways.

The cotoneaster will also provide shade from the east, the sunniest direction, to the hydrangea as it grows towards its 10 ft. mature height. ;-)