Yes, you have to replace the windows. If you intend them to be operable, casement or awning windows are much easier to use over a counter than double-hung. I don't like 36" ranges - the oven is much larger than anyone ever needs, takes longer to heat up and has more issues with evenness. If you want 6 burners, do a separate cook top and wall oven. Your workzones are not well organized. You should be able to get from the fridge to the sink without crossing the range. Prep should not interfere with cooking. For this design to work, you could put a prep-sink in the island. You need a trash pull-out to the right of the main sink. With the only trash in the island, dish cleanup will be extremely inconvenient. The microwave really should be in the island - walking to the pantry to reheat leftovers is quite far. The separate pantry seems like wasted space.

Not quite kitchen design related, but I don't really see why you'd bother with the extraordinary expense of moving the staircase. It robs you of your dining room just to give you a pointless walk-in pantry. You can still get what you want out of the kitchen without moving the stairs.

You just described touching more than 40% of the home. That means it will cost as much as a teardown and building new. Which you should probably do anyway, since you don't like very much about that home, and your ideas only make it worse.

That’s a bit glib. If I had demolished and rebuilt, my interest rate would have more than doubled, I would have spent a fortune on site prep and architects fees and lost a year to

Remodels cost MORE per square foot than new builds. You pay more, and get less.

Yes, but, for instance, for those of us who refied at 2.75%, a demo and new build would increase the monthly payment by 50% and double the cost of a 30 year mortgage for the same principal. Every situation is unique and there certainly are reasons why new build may not make sense.

Your payment is going to more than double, either way. A remodel or a HELOC is a much higher rate than the current 6% that you can easily find. Unless you have several hundreds of thousands of dollars saved to spend the cash? The money gets spent/paid back, no matter which way you go. And bless you if you can spend cash for a new build or gigantic remodel. But your money buys you a better and more valuable end result with a new build rather than a remuddle.

With a new note, you are subjecting both the remaining balance and the new cost to the fixed 6% rate. With a HELOC, only the renovation costs are subject to the HELOC rate, which is variable and usually paid off over a much shorter time.

Your math is not mathing. Start with some actual numbers.

In the mean time, way dial back these plans if you don't want another $4500 a month paid out on a HELOC. If you even have enough equity to pull out for that. Any time anyone starts talking about moving stairs, you 100% can tell they dont know anything about remodeling costs.

I’m not the OP but I also said that moving the stairs was an extremely expensive proposition that did not improve the space at all.

Try leaving windows alone… move staircase as you suggest…. shift passage to mudroom to lower on that wall……then run kitchen in area along back side where you have table and pantry. window side gets dining spot w wet bar. some pantry storage space goes into mudroom….you dont need big separate pantry …..just use your spaces. Entertainment bar w dining so much nicer where windows are.

ANY dining is better w windows / light… you have that.

Dining Room · More Info

Thanks for the spirited discussion about mortgage rates, HELOC payments, and rebuilding from scratch as opposed to remodeling. While those are interesting topics, they aren’t what I came here for.

For added context to those who are actually interested in providing constructive feedback, our home is one of the original residences of the 88-acre ranch built in the 1940s. There have been several remodels and additions completed over the years by the original family (multiple generations) before we were blessed to become the first non-family owners of the property. With various modernizations, finishing of the basement, and additions including the front entry, mud room, and primary suite, our home is a modest 4,300 square feet. Unfortunately, the kitchen, pantry, and treacherously steep non-code-compliant stairs have remained largely untouched in its nearly 85-year history. When we purchased this forever home, we knew we wanted to eventually make some dramatic changes to these areas to create our dream kitchen and ultimately provide safer access to the basement, especially with little ones running around. And we’re fortunate to be in a great financial position to embark on this one-in-a-lifetime remodel.

Now a few responses and back to the nitty gritty.

@nexp, I’ve been mulling over the window situation all day and doing more research. I’m now almost certainly going to replace the windows entirely to raise the sill above the countertop. I really like the idea of two large picture windows in the entire corner, which will create an unobstructed view of our pasture. And here’s a picture from outside showing the windows in question:

@Minardi, the remodel area is less than 15% of our total home. It’s also a beautiful historic home with amazing charm inside and out, so a “teardown” is a non-starter.

@Tish, we’re ready for this remodel, and the money’s in the bank. I’m not being flippant or ignorant about the cost of relocating the stairs. They really have to go! Here are a couple of photos of the death stairs, at which we’ve already had two very scary falls:

@herbflavor, a genuine thank you for the great suggestions, but we are limited by a few things. First, the existing doorway between the mud room and kitchen can’t be relocated because it’s the original exterior door through a brick wall. I actually tried a variation of your suggested layout when first starting off, but couldn't seem to make it work with that door. We also already have a wonderful wet bar for entertaining in the great room to the north. As for windows at/near the dining table, I couldn’t agree more with your sentiment, but I will say we do get a great amount of natural light from the picture window to the north of the existing dining area where we will still have enough room for a dining room table after adding the stairs:

All that said, I’ve worked up a slightly different plan that allows for a “pass-through” panty between the mud room and kitchen/dining room. It features plenty of storage for dry goods, appliances (toaster, coffee maker), and other rarely used kitchenware, along with a wall mounted microwave/oven combo, which we have 100% determined will live in whatever pantry we end up with. It also created a slightly more gally style kitchen and better location for the refrigerator, leaving the island for entertainment and secondary dining option. Still considering adding a prep sink to the island, but leaning toward keeping it clean. Here's the floor plan and basic renderings (colors, finishes, style, etc. TBD)

Would love any additional constructive feedback. Thanks!

The photos help a lot and this plan is substantially more functional. Now you don’t need a prep sink in the island. I would put a small sink in the pantry though. Coffee makers need water, microwaves need cleaning, etc. I really would put the wine fridge in the pantry and a microwave drawer in the island, but you seem pretty certain.

I would offer that the dining space is quite uncomfortably tight. I don’t think it works. Each person needs 2ft of width and you need ft behind a chair. Having bar-height chairs up against the staircase railing is really uncomfortable. Also, in this configuration you don’t really need the island at all. It’s no longer in a prep zone or a cook zone. It’s rather disengaged from all the active space in the kitchen and no one seated at it would be looking at much. You have an adequate amount of counter and storage space without it. Removing it allows you comfortably place a proper dining table. It also seems really awkwardly close to your living space and sectional.

This^^^^

A 600K+ remodel with such extensive structural changes needs to start with an architect. It won’t end there.

Yes, this of course. I was kind of assuming you plan on hiring an architect and possibly a kitchen designer and you’re just gathering preliminary thoughts.

Also it occurs to me that in your new layout, the fridge access interferes with the dishwasher, which could be problematic during cleanup time.

This seems like a purposeful and good renovation. Great that you are removing the death trap stairs. But don't remove one death trap for another - high top table next to an open railing. I'd make a regular height table, larger, and move it away from the railing. I wonder if there is actually enough space in here for a large island with seating and a dining table. Is this your only dining room? Think about how much space is needed when chairs are pulled out. It seems like a tight squeeze.

The outside pics of your home are helpful. That brick area is it's own little visual nook distinct from the siding around it, and it is already chopped up with glass block. I love that you could put in new large picture windows with a view to your pasture and simply redo the outside of this brick area and don't have to worry about it coordinating with a larger exterior portion of the house.

I don't understand the allure of a separate room to have to go in to to use the microwave or oven or make a piece of toast. Perhaps the kind of cooking .you do is different from what I do and this makes sense for you. (Are you the primary cook?) I want my microwave near my cooking area if I aim defrosting an ingredient, melting butter while baking, or heating up something that I am eating quickly.

I also don't really understand the idea of making an open concept kitchen and then making half of it closed off. Is it just so .you don't have to look at the parts that actually make something a kitchen? See my drawing below. Why not have that just be an open part of the kitchen and dining area?

I'd rather it where your drink fridge is. And, I'd rather the drink fridge not be in the immediate vicinity of where the cook is busy cooking. If it is for grab and go beverages, put it out of the way.

I am a big fan of older homes so love that you are going to make this home your own. :-) I think that your designs are improving with each post. A big driver of the kitchen design will depend on how you and/or others will use the kitchen space. Are you cooking most of your meals from scratch or are you more take out and quick meals? How frequently do you use your microwave, coffee maker, etc.? The main work space feels tight to me - what is the distance from the refrigerator to the counter directly across? Is it large enough to serve it's purpose?

36" range is great! I have one and it is fantastic so don't let others deter you from that if it is what you want.

@Kendrah, thank you for the great feedback and suggestions. I think you, along with others here and in “real life”, have convinced me that a separate enclosed pantry is unnecessary and defeats the purpose of opening up the kitchen.

@Leah Harvey, thanks for the feedback! I do cook most meals from scratch, so I want to maximize prep space and ensure good flow in and around the kitchen and all work zones. The microwave is minimally used, which is why I thought it needed to be hidden away, but I’ve reversed course based on feedback. Agreed with you regarding the cramped quarters around the fridge and sink area in my latest design, which was my main concern.

I’ve further developed Kendrah’s “open pantry” option as I’m calling it, and I’ve enlarge the island to provide additional seating and maximize guest engagement. There’s still room near the stairs for a small bistro table and two chairs for when it’s just the two of us eating. This option does eliminate a “formal” dining area, but based on our current usage of the dining room table, it will go unnoticed (it gets sat at maybe once a year; note the one photographed above was from the listing photos and is not our current large formal dining table in that space).

Still open to feedback and any other thoughts or layout ideas. My current challenge is trying to find 68” of wall space for this Frigidaire side by side freezer/fridge semi built-in unit.

We used the Electrolux version and split it. I have seen it in homes when it is together and you really need to have a very large space for it to not become the overwhelming feature of the room. I had a friend split hers on either side of an entry into her kitchen and that worked well too. We don't cook out of our freezer so that is the portion that I put across from the coffee bar. The refrigerated section is part of the workspace of the kitchen.

Eliminating the pantry is a good step. But now you have 1) a very oddly shaped island that is terrible for a primary dining area (it’s really awkward for conversation), will be a bear to clean and isn’t really useful as counter space 2) access to your mudroom, which I presume is an entry from outside, is blocked by the island and divers you through active kitchen space 3) your fridge is very far from prep space and forces you to cross the range 4) your ovens are very far from the range top.

Since you’re moving the staircase, is there somewhere else you could move it to? If the staircase isn’t occupying the space where it’s currently located, you could fit the kitchen all at that end and have a nice functional dining space where the kitchen is.

We're in the middle of our renovation and you'll find out that your initial drawing will be redraw many many times. I find it very useful to listen to this podcast:

https://www.mainlinekitchendesign.com/podcasts/

Here's the latest and greatest plan.

Unfortunately, there is no other feasible location for the relocated stairs based on the shape of the basement. We also thought long and hard about separating the refer and freezer, and based on research on what others have done and their ultimate outcomes, we've proceeded with separating them. This is also based on how we rarely use the freezer while cooking, so the "long distance" from the cooking/prep space will not be an issue for us. Our architect has also suggested bulking down on the island, so we'll see where that goes once they've had their way with our plans.

Thanks for helping with our ideas/concepts and getting us to a point where we can actually have an architect make it real. Still open to everyone's thoughts and/or ideas. Would actually like to see what someone can come up with from a blank slate (after relocating the stairs). Here's a blank plan for your markup pleasure:

It would be difficult to take a stab at the “blank slate” without dimensions.

SMH! I'm so used to working with scaled drawings in Bluebeam. Here's an image with dimensions turned on!

This is most excellent.

We’re almost there with our kitchen design but would love your input on a few final decisions!

First off, thank you all so much for your amazing ideas so far! After lots of thought (and a few design revisions), we’ve settled on a layout we’re really excited about that hits all of our wishlist items and keeps things functional.

We’ve decided on frameless flat panel cabinets for a clean, timeless look. We thought about micro shaker but felt it might be too trendy, so we’re sticking with something more classic.

Now we’re trying to finalize the color and hardware details! Here’s where we are so far:

• White perimeter cabinets (base and uppers)
• Dark blue island base cabinets
• Uppers will have glass doors and interior lighting, extending to the ceiling.
• For the tall cabinets around the fridge, freezer, and microwave/oven, we’re torn between keeping them dark blue to match the island, trying a lighter blue, going for a soft wood tone to tie in our refinished narrow plank oak floors, or even making a bold move with a deep green.
• For hardware, we’re loving sleek linear pull tabs and are considering satin nickel or brass, but we're open to ideas—what finish do you think would work best?

So what do you all think? Should we go with dark blue, lighter blue, green, or wood for the tall cabinets? And which hardware finish do you like most?

And finally, would love to get your ideas on cabinet configurations and ideas. I've seen spice cabients/drawers, appliance cabinets (like custom mixer cabinets with pull up table for the device), or vertical baking sheet storage.

We’d love to hear your thoughts!