I’m enjoying your thought process, Bart, even while I sympathize with your dilemma of high heat levels coupled with a water source deficiency. I’m quite sure you and I share a few climate challenge dynamics. It might also help to show your roses some photos or video footage from other’s thriving gardens. ;)

These are both great ideas, ladies! I've been looking up perennials; I may well start a thread -AND POST IT ON THE ROSE FORUMS (as well as the perennials forum) about "replacing roses with perennials"-that should really bother them and force 'em to shape up!

You might be onto something. Here if the rose is a stray I take in or a random impulse buy it does much better than anything I researched, narrowed down to, purposefully selected, and targeted in on as the PERFECT plant for that spot and my garden. The perfect plant which gets all the attention usually limps along and barely grows just to spite my attention, the nothing plant never looks back.

We bought a house with an overgrown yard including a crepe Myrtle. I lovingly fertilized it and thinned it removing suckers etc. Nothing. No blooms. Second year I said- you’re getting replaced by a palm tree if you don’t bloom. Ever since blooms like a champ.

Crepe myrtles, I have noticed, are tough plants able to grow in various poor conditions. They may start thinking more about reproduction if starved a bit.

Bart, what kinds of perennials? I don't suppose you could ask a friend with a camera to come out to your garden? I really wonder about what it looks like.

Bart, in early spring, I recommend cutting your roses back to about 2–3 inches. You might want to try this with a few roses. After pruning, apply alfalfa tea. A rose with a good root system should produce plenty of buds. If that doesn’t happen, the rose is most likely partially dead.

Here’s an example of how one of my dieback rose was pruned after winter. Within a few weeks, it became a completely harmonious bush with beautiful blooms.

I would never do that, Elena. My roses and I have a good relationship, and part of it is that I know which are girls and which are boys, and I address them as either he or she. Most of our communication is through mind messages. They talk to me, and I talk to them. Occasionally, they get sworn at when, for example, Golden Celebration, a "he", grabs my hair, which happens fairly regularly during pruning. This is a downside to growing large roses. So figure out the sex of the rose and communicate by mind messages. They do want to talk to you. Diane

HOUZZ, post this thread!

Well, Houzz just disappeared my post. Come on, Houzz, where is my post? Anyone home? Diane

I can see it, but you I don't think you can.

Wow, Elena, that’s really a hard pruning job. Do you do this to all of your roses every year??

Here's basically what I said above in the missing post...... I'd never do that Elena. My roses and I have a good relationship, and part of that is because I know which roses are boys and which are girls, and I address them as either he or she. Most of our communication is through mind messages. They talk to me, and I talk to them. Occasionally, they get sworn at, when, for example, Golden Celebration, a "he", grabs my hair, which happens fairly regularly during pruning. This is a downside to growing large roses. So figure out whether your rose is a boy or girl, and communicate by mind messages. They do want to talk to you very much, and will reward your messages with their health, blooming, and growth. Diane

You could always walk a goat or pig on a leash past the rose, for the not so subtle threat. I have read posts on gw where people have threatened their plants by doing some crazy dance and holding a chicken over their head lol. I suppose one could wave photos of Diane's glamorous roses at them for inspiration.

*When piggys want to get into your veggie garden..

I might not have been entirely clear. This particular rose naturally experiences dieback after winter and is best pruned with that in mind. Interestingly, this approach also works wonders for roses that have dwindled to just 1–2 branches and lost their vigor. The principle is simple: when a plant faces significant stress, its survival instincts kick in, often resulting in a burst of growth and renewed vitality. I've gained so much insight from gardeners in zones 3–4, where these techniques are often put to the test.

I know all about survival instincts and plant stress, and I say, just have a good relationship with your roses, and they won't die down to nothing. They'll want to please you because you're nice to them and talk to them and acknowledge that they are pretty little girls or big strong guys.

Sultry, I want a cute little piggy. He can eat my veggies--some of them. I wonder if he'd like some Habanero peppers. Diane

I want to be a macho man, says he. And he definitely is a boy rose.

Bart has an entirely different climate, elena, than you do. Winter dieback is not the problem she is dealing with.

Difficulties with high heat and low water are another story.

Sheila, I have no trouble reading what Bart wrote and know where she lives.

Creating stress for roses at the right time should work in any climate. I suggested to Bart that she try this method with a few roses before they die.

Like Sheila, I doubt hard pruning these newly planted roses would be helpful. Unlike your rose you're talking about, Elena, these roses don't have established root systems to push new growth. And I too doubt that dieback caused by cold is a problem in bart's garden. I live in Italy, too, with a garden situation that sounds similar to bart's. Freezing back of roses is simply not a problem here: it doesn't get cold enough.

Melissa,

Did you see this?

Interestingly, this approach also works wonders for roses that have dwindled to just 1–2 branches and lost their vigor.

OK ladies, I gave up! You can talk to roses, bring shovel, promise to plant perennials INSTEAD of trying(!!!) the method that works for many people outside this forum.

I find swearing at them therapeutic even if they aren't on the same mind meld as Diane's roses.

Seriously though, you might try watering the rose NEXT to the one you're thinking about replacing. You've said that water is such a huge issue for your roses, and I can attest to its impact on my roses even with much less water issues. I'm guessing that the water in a neighboring spot might encourage the rose to set out roots to reach for that water and put down a good root system (and allow it to benefit from the pruning Elena is talking about). It would have to be deep and periodic watering, but I imagine it would make the rose jealous and competitive with its neighbors. Nothing like playing favorites to spur on the psychological side of rose growing.

Of course we're being facetious and a certain amount of rose growing is not understandable even in our own yards. I've had hardy roses with fantastic root systems well established simply die over the winter and no amount of rescue pruning saved them. I've also had wimpy roses hold their own for an amazing number of years with tenacity (Tenacious being one of them).

Cynthia

Roses are quite similar to growing tomatoes in some aspects, an area where I have a lot of experience. When I plant a tomato, I water it heavily, at least 5 gallons for a small plant. After that, I don't water them for about 10 days, regardless of the weather and how do they look. This method encourages the plants to form a large root system quickly as they search for water.

If a tomato plant isn't growing well, it's recommended to gently pull it to create a shake or stress for the roots. I'm not sure if shaking a rose would have the same effect(haha), but the concept of creating stress for the plant might still apply.

Bart having no water at her garden and having to haul water in is her greatest challenge.

The only roses I've ever lost were in the winter of 2022-22023 because voles ate their roots. Otherwise, it's been hunky dory for 20 years. My method works. Diane --I also grow good tomatoes that get plenty of water. I don't stress them.

OK, my last post here, promise.

Growing roses in a garden with little or no water is challenging but possible with careful planning and selection of drought-tolerant varieties. Here are steps to help you succeed:

1. Choose the Right Roses

• Drought-Tolerant Varieties: Select roses known for their resilience in dry conditions, such as species roses or specific varieties like Rosa rugosa, Lady Banks’ rose, or Knock Out roses.
• Rootstock Matters: Roses grafted onto drought-tolerant rootstocks (e.g., Dr. Huey or Fortuniana) are better suited for arid conditions.

2. Site Selection

• Full Sun: Ensure the site gets at least 6-8 hours of sunlight daily.
• Good Airflow: Choose a location with good air circulation to reduce the risk of disease.

3. Prepare the Soil

• Well-Draining Soil: Roses dislike waterlogged soil, so ensure excellent drainage.
• Amendments: Incorporate organic matter like compost to improve soil structure and moisture retention.

4. Planting Techniques

• Deep Planting: Plant roses deeply to encourage root growth and access to deeper soil moisture.
• Mulching: Apply a thick layer of organic mulch (2-4 inches) around the base of the plants to retain moisture and regulate soil temperature.

5. Watering Strategy

• Initial Watering: Water deeply and infrequently when establishing the roses, especially during the first year.
• Soak the Roots: Use a soaker hose or drip irrigation to deliver water directly to the root zone.

6. Maintenance

• Pruning: Prune to maintain a compact shape and reduce water loss through transpiration.
• Weeding: Keep the area weed-free to reduce competition for water.
• Fertilizing: Use slow-release fertilizers to avoid stimulating excessive growth that demands more water.

7. Companion Planting

• Plant drought-tolerant ground covers or perennials around the roses to create a microclimate that conserves soil moisture.

8. Monitor and Adjust

• Observe the Roses: Watch for signs of stress like wilting or yellowing leaves.
• Adapt to Conditions: If rainfall is scarce, supplement with minimal watering as needed.

9. Consider Alternative Approaches

• Dry Farming: Allow roses to rely entirely on natural rainfall once established, a technique used in some regions.
• Rainwater Harvesting: Collect and store rainwater to provide occasional irrigation.

Elena, these gardeners are experienced rosarians for decades in many cases who have run into global warming and climate change. Rose growing 101 does not cut it.

Some extreme situations and climates need more expert help or commiseration at the minimum.

Melissa =) this reminds me of Crowley's plant tips. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZEwFk2qfOY

Water is certainly the major consideration for me in the garden (soil is a close second), and I saw last year--as if I needed the reminder--that it's critical. After three years of low rainfall, 2024 gave us abundant rain, and all the plants, including roses that had stood still for years, put out new growth and grew, a lot. Like bart we have water issues, having only the municipal water to use and experiencing long periods of drought. My response is to water plants the first year only, after which they have to get by on what the heavens bring. The once-blooming old roses of European origin (sorry for that mouthful) are the best for me, followed by the warm climate roses. These latter, however, need a lighter soil that we can generally create, so they're mostly right around the house. Fortunately I love the roses I'm able to grow.

Z10Socal: Crowley's plant tips was great! Personally, I don't threaten my plants. I feel they have enough adversity to deal with already, what with heat, drought, bugs--no pest or disease treatment--our soil, and no fertilizer (I do mulch, amend planting holes, and sometimes add sand). In a year like the last one, it's still really interesting to see what will grow with all these headwinds. I've been doing a lot of pruning this fall--I mean, things grew--distributing the pruned matter where it's needed, which is practically everywhere. I almost never remove unsatisfactory roses, just look the other way when I pass.

Bart I have had a couple of roses grow backwards and a couple of outright deaths of new plants this last year. It had been a ferocious summer and I do feel the creeping heat of climate change threatening over my shoulder, but I don’t have your water issue. So far, my well has not failed me and I have plently of free water on tap so the roses have not suffered from the lack at all. Even superbly well-hydrated roses can suffer heat stress, as mine did during searingly hot winds that literally turned even some established roses to charcoal!

As to encouragement strategies, when I am getting rid of a poorly performing rose, new or established, I chop it down to a couple of inches in preparation for shovel pruning it later and then ignore/often forget about it. One or two that received that treatment sprang back from the dead and grew far more vigorously than they ever did under proper care. That then presents me with a dilemma - to wield the shovel as per the original plan or give it another chance..

" to wield the shovel as per the original plan or give it another chance." O, ain't it the truth!

Z 10 Socal_I'll have to look up Crowley's plant tips. I don't dare click on links with Houzz-I did it once and lost all my list of bookmarked sites; that's Houzz for you!

Diane, your roses deserve your kindly approach! What is that stupendous rose in the photo? Ascot, by any chance?

Thanks, Bart. Yes, that's Ascot. Diane

I have a garden sun in a prime in-ground spot and it's wimped along for the past 4 years, barely eking out a few blooms per year. This year, I mentioned shovel-pruning it in passing to my husband as we were walking by it and BOOM. Flushes. I'm still not impressed enough to redeem it though.

Are you sure, Shine?

Renewal/rejuvenating pruning is a thing...and completely different to the usual pruning done on a (more or less) yearly go-round. After a coupla decades on the mean and lean allotment (and droughty neglect, weeds and ravening pigeons/molluscs/rodenty things), more than a handful have required the hack of death routine. I have a mini-chainsaw for the job!I try to offer extra loving care and cossetting, at least for a coupla months or so after the smiting, before getting back into the hurly-burly of my uncouth plot.

rosaprimula,(and various).

I doubt that would rejuvenate a weak plant that never really took off. I will probably dig out my weak Tea rose that the voles ate the top of. I could wait, but it never was a winner and I don't bet the voles helped.

Sheila, I sympathize, and totally agree that drastically pruning a rose that refuses to take off would help the rose, though it might help me, by killing it off finally so I don't waste time and energy on a hopeless case,LOL!!! This is going to be the decisive year for these floribundas; I'm going to try a monthly anti-fungus spray during summer, to see if that will defeat TCBFof D (Creeping Black Finger of Death) sindrome. It is so frustrating to see plants seem to grow and look well until suddenly, at the end of August CBFofD arrives and kills off all but one cane...

BART, my Love Song rose got hit with something last summer… maybe it was what you call Creeping Black Finger of Death. Whatever it was, canes started turning black and brittle and the plant was struggling hard. I looked at it a week or two ago and decided to try cutting it way back as Elena showed and I’ll see what it does. The soil there is pretty poor and the drip emitter was perhaps not putting out enough for that location, so I spread a nice thick layer of compost and horse manure around it, watered it in well and replaced the emitter with a better one. Now maybe I need to show it pictures of Diane’s Love Song and hold a spade in my hand whenever I visit it. I’ll let you know if this wakes it out of its lethargy.

I tried showing my Love Song pics of Diane's LS. It doesn't work when hubby mowed over it, not once but twice! Its on the inside edge of a figure 8 shaped flowerbed. How Mr. Magoo can't see it, I dont know! He's no longer allowed to mow in the front yard. Maybe that was the goal..maybe he's dumb but he's not so dumb lol!

Judi, I would also suggest covering your rose with a non-transparent, non-black pot with holes to create a small greenhouse. Additionally, you might want to check on your rose periodically and remove the pot for a few hours a day when it’s not too sunny.

In my climate, Elena, I can’t imagine that would be a good idea? I don’t know. I mean, what is it supposed to accomplish? Is the goal to give it some dark therapy or what? I’d be curious to hear more.

I’m so sorry, Sultry, about the fate of your LS. I tried not to laugh when I read your post because it would NOT have been funny to find it chopped off twice. But yeah, that is hard to imagine not seeing and mowing off a rose bush twice! Maybe put several metal posts around it since those are fairly hard to mow off. ;/

I tried the tough love approach with a rose that used to grow quite well for me -- and flower abundantly -- last year. What I got were a ton of suckers from the Dr. Huey rootstock. Lesson learned.

Judi, I’m not sure about the climate in your area, but the purpose of covering roses is to create a hotbed effect—essentially a warm and humid environment that promotes optimal conditions for new buds to develop. Of course, if daytime temperatures in your region reach 80°F with plenty of sunshine now, I would recommend applying this method only at night.

My husband, and another guy I hired, most willing workers, have both in their enthusiasm mowed over any number of valued plants. This is What Men Do. It's something about the combination of the internal combustion engine and testosterone applied in a good cause. Men are just so heroic. I'm careful to mark, and protect, new plants with BIG STRONG STAKES.

Oh, not good, Deborah. I might be asking for trouble with my LS surgery. Oh well, it’s done now and I’ll wait for the outcome. Ok, Elena, I get that- a hothouse effect. I may try that. It’s still cool enough for that. No 80 degree weather yet.

Lol.."This is what men do!"So true! One time at an old house, I used to grow baskets of hanging begonias. One spring, I had all the new metal baskets laid out on the edge of a flowerbed near the garage and just filled them up with fresh potting soil and begonia tubers. There were 4 of them. I had heavily watered them and were letting them drain before putting them up on the patio overhang. About an hour later, I hear the truck and hubby had backed over the baskets mangling them all! Grrr

I am seriously thinking of redoing my figure-8 shaped rose bed in front to a block raised bed. Then if he does mow, and hits it..at least the roses will live haha. I really do love mowing here (ride on mower) I usually do most of the fields and he usually did the front lawn around the house. Now I make sure I hit that area first do he wont get ideas. I'm just glad we dont have a tractor yet. Once he gets that, he will be going nuts with a big pull behind mower and giant tires. Then nothing will be safe!