Depends in part on the refrigerator model and door handle.

If you don’t want to lose space to a filler, consider moving the sink and window towards the left and putting the refrigerator on the right end of the sink/cabinet wall closer to the dining room. Assuming you have good clearance between the refrigerator and island.

^^^

If your 'wall' doesn't protrude past the refrigerator box it won't interfere with the door opening. The door will open into the entrance space into the pantry. Zero needed. If the frig is a 42" SubZero, look at the installation instructions for the model. Other counter-depth models can be 28" or more. This is a tight design. Island height seating is unnecessary with more comfortable table height chairs right there. Adults prefer to put their feet on the ground for relaxing comfort. There're clearance problems with an end stool. I hope you have all drawer lowers and good strong work zone led recessed lighting. Plus, an induction range like Bosch to use the flat surface as counter. 15 inches is not a work zone. Maybe 8" and 22". Plus, an exhaust hood. Props for not showing a giant sink. DW to the right. I'd get carboard boxes from an appliance store and mock this layout up full scale in the garage or basement before proceeding. You could get better prepping and cooking function by placing the frig where the range is. Then moving the sink to leave space at the end for only the dw. The induction range with hood when spaced on that run can have better work zones.

To save money, the uppers and lowers in the dining area could be replaced by more functional shallow shelf storage behind doors. Ikea has units. $200. Or use new cabinet matching units.

Billy. Display & Storage Cabinets for Home - IKEA

Those are some tight aisles you have in that plan. That 3’-6” aisle between island and range is being measured from island counter to the cabinet box. That range sticks out how far? Subtract that from the 3’-6”. Same goes for the aisle that goes into the pantry. That 3’-6” is being measured from cabinet box to cabinet box. It does not take into account counter top overhang or the fridge sticking out. Even counterdepth fridges stick out past the counter.

First architects are rarely good KDs so get one of those and as for the fridge it needs aspacer to open fully on a closed wall so go 36" with a spacer to allow the doors to open . Isee you are relocating the island what does that mean ? Prettylong walk from mud room to pantry you might want to look at that too. I think 48" aisles are nice in front of fridges, ranges and you need 60" for stools from counter edge . How is the range being vented ? Your architect is not who chooses appliances either I do not even choose them for my clients . You get appliances that work for how you cook and store fridge items then I design around those . You need a proper KD . As for keeping old cabinets I would need to see the old and the new together but really a kitchen redo IMO should be a new set of cabinets too unless what you are keeping are really not cabinets but something special so post pics please of those here in a comment.

Can we see the before and after designs including what is being salvaged vs replaced?

I have a range with 18" on either side and find it too confined, no where to put the things I need next to my range. Part of my reno decisions were based on needing more space on either side of my range.

I am also increasing the depth of the counters on the refrigerator side of my kitchen to accommodate a regular refrigerator depth rather than spending a bunch of additional money for a counter depth model.

Think about the pantry, what needs to be stored and how that storage should be organized.

Looks like you are planning upper and lowers vs open shelving and have a large blind corner.

Storage along 2 walls with a place at the back for brooms and mops may be better.

I haven't bought a fridge since 2021, but the only 42" one available was the Sub-zero French Door model. Just a weird size, and SZ has now come out with a 48" version of that same fridge. I would say that 36" or 48" are more standard sizes for the industry.

I have a 42" side by side SZ, bought in 2014. Love it!

I like mine too, but missed the launch of the 48 by a few months. Would have picked 48 if I had a choice, as it is a standard size and I had plenty of room in the kitchen.

You can place a refrigerator so that the doorway allows the door the require clearance space.

This is a listing photo where my sister's fridge opened at a doorway.

I think I would switch the ref and the stove. I like the cooking surface to be on the same top as the sink. Do you need a closed off pantry? What if you removed the wall to the left of the ref so the counter can continue into that space?

"Also, my architect allowed for 42". Is this a typical width for a counter depth fridge?"

No. AJ Madison offers 108 counter-depth 36" stainless steel refrigerators and two counter-depth 42" stainless steel refrigerators, both of which must be built in.

I don't love the whole thing, and no idea the current or what is planned behind the dining table....... but? If there there are kids, I hate the range locale, and the fridge locale...

I assume a deck or patio at the step down ?

Can a window or the door move?

Even with no move........? Kids/ snacks/ a micro away from your cooking/Prep?

Seems a fairly major reno - I'd not agonize on "salvaging" cabinetry, anything.

A FULLY dimensioned plan would help as well. along with seeing the kitchen in context with the surrounding spaces.

How much space is recommended for a refrigerator to open fully when it is near a wall?

Eh, more than you're allowing, which is none. Here's what I'd do, if this were my space:

- Move the sink (and, thus, the dishwasher) to the island. You want your three "big players" (sink, fridge, range) to be at least 4' apart but no more than 9' apart. Using the island for one of the appliances makes most sense.

- Move the range to the back wall and flank it with two windows.

- Then move the refrigerator to where you show the range in the original picture. This'll be ideal for the refrigerator, which you want to have convenient but over to the side /on the edge of your workspace, as you'll bring out everything before you begin cooking.

- You'd have space for one small cabinet next to the refrigerator, which would keep it from looking "alone". But I wouldn't flank the refrigerator with cabinets because that would lock you into one size of refrigerator -- and it's a sure thing that one day you'll have to replace it. Sizes can alter over the years, so keeping "one end" open is a good idea.

- I would go with a 36" refrigerator. Even a 33" is enough. We have a 36" in the kitchen + a large dorm-sized refrigerator in the pantry. We use the dorm-sized fridge for canned drinks (and its separate freezer for ice cream); keeping these things out of the main fridge is a perfect arrangement for us.

- I like the extra counter space over by the table. This'll be ideal for keeping the coffee pot, cookie jar, bowl of fruit out of the way.

- You're over-seated. You have a good-sized table PLUS barstools for the whole family literally within reach of one another. I know, people do this all the time, but WHY? Duplicates don't add function.

- As presented, you must carry groceries through the kitchen to reach the pantry. I'd open a door between the mudroom and the pantry -- many steps saved. The cubbies (perhaps a bit smaller) could be reconfigured against the wall next to the door.

- Where are your trash can and recycling? Do you have a straight-to-the-outside pathway for carrying trash outside?

- I'd change that exterior door to a 36" -- maybe the pocket door too. Remember that you come in this door carrying grocery bags, etc. every single day. And at some point you're going to need to swap out your refrigerator, range or something else big -- those extra inches will be appreciated.

- I do not like the idea that's floated about mirowave drawers -- why take something that's pretty inexpensive and build it in (especially so far from the main work area)? I'd consider moving it to a pantry shelf. Convenient to the cooking area, yet out of sight. Get a small one, and if it dies, changing it out just means a trip to Walmart.

Thank you all for your input! I definitely left out too much info so here is our current layout (and reposting our proposed layout). For context, we did our kitchen before we moved in in 2018 so cabinets are in good shape and we like them. Our bigger project is our second floor reno, but we wanted to add a mudroom off our driveway (no garage there) and decided to bump into the office since we are adding a bedroom upstairs. I'm not looking for a "designer kitchen" but want to make sure the appliances and space makes sense.

I will switch to 36" counter depth ref. I can remove the doors to the mudroom and pantry all together and just have open arches there. Perhaps this could help solve the ref door issue?

I do like the suggestion of switching the stove and ref, but then I'd have to make more room between the ref and island. I'd be open to shortening the island (currently it is 7'3" but we wanted to add 1') which would remove the end chair but I think that's ok as it would allow space for the ref doors to open. Maybe this is the solution? (only issue I see here is that the island will no longer be center to the sink)

I don't want the ref in the dining area. That area is planned to be a built in server/coffee/bar area.

We don't have plans to move the window, sink or DW.

Current:

Proposed:

So, it seems my two options are:

1. Remove pantry door and leave open doorway to allow ref doors to open.

2. Switch stove and ref and shorten island to make about 48" aisle.

Is there anything about the current kitchen that is not working for you? The way you describe this project sounds like it's like, "might as well"? I agree with Diana I'd be very hesitant to tear this out for bigger but not more functional.

1. Remove pantry door and leave open doorway to allow ref doors to open.

Will you be able to continually bear looking into the pantry while in the kitchen/dining area. IMO certain areas require a door and a pantry is one of them - however.....others feel differently.

Diana, I appreciate it! I designed our kitchen myself (w the help of Houzz advice!) when we moved in and I'm proud of it. We just are outgrowing and find that we spend all our time in the kitchen so I want a full island instead of peninsula. You also cant see the angle into the dining room but our dining table is pushed up against the wall bc there isn't enough room (this is why theres a bump out there in the proposed dining area). This proposed layout allows for more people in the kitchen around the island and at the dining table together. The mudroom was actually an afterthought that has now become a must-have (after boots and snowgear everywhere over the winter! and kids becoming sports-age).

The pantry was originally going to open into the mudroom but I changed it bc I wanted access to the pantry directly next to the kitchen (access to microwave, etc in there). I'm ok with having to walk a little with groceries and don't consider this as an issue.

I don't plan to have a pantry with open shelves when you look directly into it (probably just on the wall sharing the mudroom so its a little more hidden. Maybe I'll consider an appliance garage in the pantry to avoid the eye sore of the microwave etc?

Makes sense!

If the pantry is mostly cabinetry (except for shallow shelves on side) can you nix the door AND the problematic wall? i'd switch fridge and range as others have suggested. On the short side wall is a better position for people to grab drinks and so on out of the fridge, without crossing through the work zones. Picture how that will work in the proposed layout ,squeezing sideways behind someone at the stove or scooting around the dishwasher door during cleanup. Usually according to workflow advice, the range should not be in between fridge and sink... But for this reason I think it's better.

Aisle clearances matter much more than centering (centered or symmetrical is only "true" from one viewpoint, not as you naturally move around your house) Especially since you're saying the family is all in the kitchen, you need space!

Lots of good advice - just a note that all of that cabinetry in an open pantry will be $$$, my SIL removed her pantry door for flow in her new reno but once she found out it was going to be $60k worth of cabinetry for a pantry she went with open shelves and put the door back on, budget may not be an issue but just thought i’d mention since the changes caused her a bunch of delays

I never like to see a refrigerator next to a wall. You should be able to open the refrigerator door fully and that's not possible with a wall adjacent.

Another thing to think about - since you are going to reposition cabinets, have you looked into how you are going to color match your moldings and what exposed sides of cabinets may wind up with screw holes drilled in them from the initial install? You will need parts and pieces to make this work.

Juli - how long ago did you renovate your current kitchen? It looks nice - however, I do understand the need for more space if you have a family (and extended family and/or friends) who always congregate in the kitchen. I redesigned my kitchen (right before breaking ground) due this exact reason. I just kept trying to imagine how the original kitchen would work with my large Italian family.

The reason I'm asking how long ago you renovated your kitchen is because if it's only been a short time, you will have a much greater chance of being able to source additional matching cabinetry.

If saving the current cabinetry isn't necessary, then it doesn't matter. You could just make sure that the current cabinets are carefully removed in order to be reused by someone else (and countertops - for example, your penninsula could be used by someone for a vanity countertop).

I would reduce the width of the mud room . . . just need enough room to store stuff you take off when you come through the door. I would not do a pocket door - - - no one will ever close it. This will leave you enough space for the fridge, range and sink on one wall and you can still have a reach in pantry with plenty of storage space. I would do shelves with sliding doors in front, unless I could afford the full height pantry cabinets.

Juli, I see a peninsula in your revised plan instead of an island, and so it appears to be mislabeled.

IMO, floor plans should have dotted lines showing the refrigerator door swings (with the thickness of the doors with door handles) and the oven door open. This will show you how much room you will have in front of your oven. I like to be able to use a pizza peel while standing in front of the oven - not off to the side.

We did the reno in 2018 before moving in, so l’m not sure if 7 years would be considered on the newer side?

It is an island. I believe the line is for our beam that is there.

I’m having a hard time picturing no wall or division for the pantry, like many of you have suggested. A nook seems odd for the space. I think having the ref on the short wall and shortening the island to make more aisle space for the ref (since i want to be able to open it if someone is standing at the island) is the best option. This also avoids people crossing into the workspace to get a drink etc. Then there will be counter-stove-counter-sink along the back wall.

Jennifer's plan, which embraces the galley kitchen concept, makes so much more sense than the pantry as a separate room. First of all, as a separate room, you lose >6" x 2 just to the space that the dividing wall takes up. Second, it creates a space with two dead corners. Third, it chops up the space and makes it all feel smaller, look smaller and, in reality, much more congested.

In the proposed plan, as already mentioned, the aisles are tight. There are two pocket doors, which are a PITA, particularly in main traffic areas. The required thick wall framing to accommodate them steals space. The actual dimensions of the space are difficult/ impossible to discern from the drawing....but it sure looks like an awful lot of chairs in a tight space--between the island and dining seating. You mentioned kids--so how many bodies are we adding to this?

I will def consider removing the pocket doors since in reality they will be left open.

In the KD world, is it ok to have nothing aligned though? In Jennifers design, the island is not aligned with the sink or stove/hood. I also wonder if the ref being in that spot is not as convenient. I do like that i could put the microwave/toaster etc to the left of the ref in Jennifers design and remain somewhat hidden. Yes, id be losing some space in my proposed design but in Jennifers id be losing pantry space. And there are two small walls with no use.

but in Jennifers id be losing pantry space

Since you know the dimensions, why not do the math & compute how many cubic feet/ inches of storage in each design. Take into account that Jennifer's single wall pantry is all easily accessible storage with no dead/ cumbersome corners. And the space that is gained by eliminating one thick wall and a conventional depth wall on the other side. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of space is either a wash or that you actually gain space in J's design.

I don't want the ref in the dining area. That area is planned to be a built in server/coffee/bar area."

Jennifer and I did SIMILAR things. both changed your path from garage.

I understand the coffee bar /instagram trend......

HOWEVER?

The fridge is a mile from the dining table. Are there KIDS here?: )

They'll be in and out of the fridge and in your prep zone......

Or....you let go of the trendy "coffee bar" ?

I'd want them out of my zone. I'd want a micro for a snack....

And then decide what/how etc of pantry.

Paper towels,,,,,, dog food? Other small appliances... and then what NEEDS to be in your mud room.

You're making a lot of sacrifices for a coffffeeeee bar : )?

How much island do you want?

^^ Ice. WATER......Fire, from right to left.

Keep thinking: )

Would there be a sink/water source at the coffee bar?

I like Jan’s layout and would do a panel ready SZ fridge it disappears into surrounding cabinetry