What does your HVAC sub say?

Who placed the components as drawn?

Hi PPF,

I haven't ask the HVAC company yet. I will ask them tomorrow.

Originally, our "utility deck" was going to be on the east side of our house. This includes our condensor, generator, etc. Therefore, I requested that the air handler be located in the laundry room since the utility deck would have been right off the laundry room. I thought the air handler and condenser should be close to each other.

Then, our architect determined that our lot size and shape could not accommodate the utility deck on the east side. We moved it over to the west side, as shown. However, the air handler didn't get moved.

Maybe the 'tunnel closet' would be a better place for the air handler and the husband's shower?

Was out kayaking on the intracoastal today! They don't need to be on a deck. I see most of them hanging from brackets above the flood zone level. You could probably hang them on your walk-in closet exterior wall. No one wants to waste limited elevated deck space with mechanical stuff.

Found an example online ...

Hi Chispa,
Thanks for thinking of me and taking the time to send the picture. We are in the Tampa Bay area. Perhaps, we saw you kayak past!
I will research if the air handler, as well as the condenser, can be located outside.
Thanks again!

I am sorry, I am following you now. Air handler on the inside, condenser hanging outside, off the laundry room.

I guess we should keep the husband's shower out of this mix or the husband may be hanging outside, off the laundry room.

Lots of yuks here, but no good advice. Your HVAC sub can best answer your question.

Thank you, Rapp.

i agree, I will call our HVAC sub tomorrow.

Is your architect involved with the detailed design, specification, and construction of your home? If so, they should be consulted with regard to your questions about HVAC and anything else. I'd bet, given the typical architect's knowledge of HVAC, that they've simply drawn the components in plan without any verification that the arrangement shown is workable. Ask them. And ask to see supporting documentation and/or calculations to substantiate their recommendation.

Thank you, Charles Ross.

You bring up a good point. I want to validate what our designer/architect designed. I will speak directly with the HVAC sub tomorrow.

Thank you for your input.

The condensing unit can be up to 200' or more from the evaporator (air handler), and the data is in the technical specification's for the unit used as to the length, line set tubing diameter and efficiency loss by length for vertical and horizontal runs. The specifications should be included with the unit's installation manual with charts showing the data the installer should use.

I can't quite make out the blueprint lengths but it shouldn't be an issue if the installation data is followed. Do talk to your installer to let them know you're aware and you didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I say it shouldn't be an issue if installed correctly, but if the installer only has 7/8" suction line tubing on the truck and the length calls for 1-1/8" line what will he do?

There are the good, bad and stupid. The good installer would get the right size, the bad would screw it and use the smaller size to save him a buck, and the stupid wouldn't know the difference. The refrigerant charge will also depend on length and diameter, I hope you don't get the stupid when it's installed.

This is great information, Kevin!

Thank you for giving me the details so that I can be informed when I speak with them.

As you say, the distance between the evaporator (air handler) and condenser might not be an issue if installed correctly.

I will ask some detailed questions, now that I know what to ask.

Thanks again!

Hi Kevin,

I have a follow-up question. I spoke with our HVAC company. He said he likes for the units to be up to 50' apart, but the closer the better.

As I see it, there are three location options for the air handler/evaporator:

1) in the laundry room closet, as it is shown

2) in the hall closet that backs up to bedroom 2 (this would move the air handler/evaporator closer to the condenser)

3) in the attic, above the pantry, where there will be drop down steps (this also would move the air handler/evaporator closer to the condenser)

We are planning on a 4 ton unit. We live in Florida and will have spray-in foam insulation in the attic.

Would you please tell me which of the three options you recommend?

Thank you for your time and advice!

Sarah

I would focus on optimizing the ductwork when locating the air handler.

Ideally, the air handler and ductwork are in conditioned space and not, for example, in the unconditioned attic.

Here's more info-

The conditioned attic is a good option.

Thank you, PPF.

I think (hope) the insulation for the attic is the good stuff. Our neighbors had their attic reinsulated and they say that the attic stays at almost the same temperature as the house. You bring up a good point, so I will double-check what insulation we will be getting.

Thank you, Dan!

Those videos are very helpful! Thanks for sharing them.

-Sarah

Your architect should have consulted the HVAC contractor during the design phase regarding possible locations for the air handler. Most manufacturers specify a maximum overall length and maximum vertical distance for line sets. They can indeed be longer than 50 ft. provided they are sized and installed according to the manufacturer's instructions for longer line sets.

I agree with PPF that optimizing duct work design is a key consideration in choosing a location for the air handler. You indicated that the attic will be insulated with spray foam insulation. If the attic is a conditioned attic, that is a perfectly fine location for ductwork and the air handler.

Thank you, Charles Ross.

I appreciate that you and PPF brought up the duct work. I have been focused on the air handler and condenser location, since I am the one who originally requested that the air handler be installed in the laundry room. (The utility deck with the condenser was originally slated to be off the laundry room, but our lot size/shape prohibited that. Now, everything moved to the west.)

When I speak with our HVAC sub, I will make sure to ask about duct work.

Thanks again!

"I spoke with our HVAC company. He said he likes for the units to be up to 50' apart, but the closer the better."

Almost anything can be done. But I would avoid unnecessarily long refrigerant line runs (over 40 feet).

Thank you, sktn.

I appreciate your response. Based on your feeback and others, I will move it out of the laundry room so that it is closer to the condenser.

Now, i just need to decide whether to put it in the hall closet that backs up to bedroom 2 or in the attic above the pantry. (There will be drop down steps for attic access.)

Thanks again!

Sarah

Only one unit? is it going to be zoned?

We have a larger house and didn't want to air condition (or heat) the whole house to the same temp. We used a Mitsubishi VRF System, which allows different zones and even individual rooms to be cooled. We can set our master bedroom to 68F at night, have a guest bedroom at 72F, another guest bedroom at 74F and the rest of the house at 76. We have 3 condenser units.

This explains a VRF system

https://www.ferguson.com/content/ideas-and-learning-center/trade-talk/what-is-a-vrf-system/

It was hard finding the right people to engineer and install this in our area of FL and our GC hadn't done a similar system before. We had to do a substantial tweak to the system, with a different HVAC company, once we moved in. New company figured it out and my DH is happy with the system now. Should be easier to find a knowledgeable company in the Tampa area.

Thank you, Chispa.

I didn't think about a second unit or multiple zones. I will talk with our HVAC guy. Also, I will look at the VRF informatin you shared. Thanks again for all of your help!

Chispa hit it right on the head. A common problem, like forever, is the design is worked up with a complicated floor plan, (like yours) and then HVAC is worked in as an afterthought, Like OH, I guess we should stick something in. The framers don't give a hoot about HVAC and only build to the blueprints, and then the HVAC contractor has to come in and try and figure how to get from point A to B using a sawzall on structural members to make it happen.

For me, to remotely suggest an alternative location for the air handler will do you no favors. Any of your potential locations may have a truss or load bearing structural member located smack dab above the selected air handler location with no way to run the Plenum, supply trunks or return trunk. The present location will already be a challenge disturbing air and regulate cooling. A second unit would make much more sense.

Seriously consider Chispa's advice and experience before it's built and get it done right the first time even it you need to ruffle a few feathers with the architect, GC or HVAC contractor. About your HVAC guy, of course he likes the units to be 50' or closer together so he can use a precharged plug and play line set with a precharged condensing unit. No brazing, experience or knowledge required and saves time and money.

Hi Kevin,

As you probably guessed, I didn't think about the the structural elements around my proposed air handler locations. I was just thinking about what made sense to me.

I will circle back with my HVAC guy and ask if option 2 (hall closet) and option 3 (attic) are even viable options, before I continue spending more hours trying to envision the new location. :)

I will also investigate the option of a second system, as you and Chispa suggest.

Thanks again!

Sarah

"The framers don't give a hoot about HVAC and only build to the blueprints, and then the HVAC contractor has to come in and try and figure how to get from point A to B using a sawzall on structural members to make it happen."

Let's not blame the framing contractor for failing to consider the interrelationships of framing and mechanical systems in the design phase. That's not their responsibility. Allocating sufficient spaces for HVAC equipment and ductwork is a design task which falls under the architect's scope of work. The architect should collaborate with the trades early in the design phase to minimize problems during construction. It shouldn't fall to the homeowner to coordinate work arounds for design shortcomings.

" Let's not blame the framing contractor for failing to consider the interrelationships of framing and mechanical systems in the design phase. "

I thought that is what I said in my simple way. You did rephrase my words better so I'll give you that, but bottom line the framers just do their job.

I believe Sarah is addressing the design shortcomings right now even if it shouldn't fall on the homeowner to do so. I give her a thumbs up for pursuing any and all shortcoming and becoming proactive in the building process, it's her money and her right.

I'm seeing a maximum distance of about 40 linear feet.

Thank you, Kevin.

I appreciate your help and input.

Good morning, Norwood.

I took a ruler to my plans to try to estimate the distance, albeit not very accurately. I appreciate you looking at the plans to give me this information. Based on the ~ 40 ft, the original location would work.

However, since I have room on the other side of the house (utility deck side), I am wondering if it makes sense to move the handler over, either to the hall closet or the attic above the pantry. I will contact my designer/architect, as well as my builder, to get their thoughts.

Not to complicate things, but I will. I played around with the closet that the air handler is slated to go. If I move the handler out, I would reduce that closet size; it would become a broom closet. I would then be able to square off the master bedroom closet and enlarge the half-bath. Although these aren't big dealS, they would be nice pluses.

Thanks again, Norwood.

-Sarah

BEFORE:

AFTER:

Is your home designer/architect a 'home designer' or a licensed 'architect' in your state?

One off topic minor thing is some people have a rod in their laundry room so they can hang some clothes to drip dry. I try to not have those rods located above electric appliances.

Good morning, Mark.

Our designer is a designer, with a licensed architect on staff.

Yes, I am planning on having a long hanging rod in the laundry room. I had planned on placing it above the washer and dryer, between the upper cabinets. Perhaps, I should reconsider that location, given your input.

So I take it no pursuit of reworking the secondary bedroom wing is in the works.

It is not just the a/c condenser to worry about. The generator is far from the electrical panels, and as it does it's weekly test run it will shake the deck. The service entrances (power, gas) should be verified, as the default entrance to the house will be the shortest distance from the street service. The generator will have a large transfer switch, and running gas and electric far to here is a similar concern as a condenser lineset. And I already brought up in another thread about your panel locations and where the meter will be (below or above).

Hi 3onthetree,

That is a good point about the generator shaking. I will cofirm with our builder that the deck will support that movement. I have to believe it will since the house is being built to current building (hurricane) codes, but it is a good point and I will ask.

Currently, the gas line coming to the house (which has been demolished) is the front right of the house, so it is close to the "utility deck".

The power pole with electrical is at the front left of the driveway. Those lines will be buried with the new house.

The transfer switch and the 300 amp electrical underground service are both located on the utility deck.

What I am saying is just because the architect showed them (and the water heater) there, doesn't mean that's where a sub will install them. It requires coordination with many everchanging parts, most of the time once the sub gets to the site and you get feedback from the utilities.

Also, be aware of what will be running on the underside of the ground floor ceiling. You do not have to accept a spaghetti-work of conduit and pipes.

Since you are having an unvented attic, the air handler would be better located there as the ductwork already is.

Hi 3onthetree,
That’s a good point about all of the “stuff” under the utility deck. The ceiling under the deck will be finished, since we will have recessed lights there.
Therefore, I hope all of the wires and lines will be out of sight.