I don't have any specific answers to your variety questions, but I also have 3 different varieties of apple trees and none of them have produced good apples due to us being surrounded by cedar trees (annual cedar rust). My 3 trees are about 20 years old now and one is almost dead due to constant cedar rust problems and the other 2 are close behind. If you have cedar trees nearby it may be a lost cause.

Reputable sellers should supply pollinator information. Some have lists on their websites. Have you asked the nursery?

vgkg wrote:

My 3 trees are about 20 years old now and one is almost dead due to constant cedar rust problems and the other 2 are close behind. If you have cedar trees nearby it may be a lost cause.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that!

I do have a lot of juniper trees where I live, but have also had apple trees in the past that were at least reasonably productive. So . . . are even "disease resistant" apple trees highly susceptible to cedar-apple rust, I wonder? 🤔

floral_uk wrote:

Reputable sellers should supply pollinator information. Some have lists on their websites. Have you asked the nursery?

Actually, I haven't contacted any nurseries yet with this question, but once I get closer to making a purchase, I may well do so. Thanks for the advice.

gardengal48 wrote:

First, just zone suitability is not a good indicator of how successful a fruit tree may be in your location. I would never consider purchasing a fruit tree without it being recommended specifically for your area.

Well, I did read that Sundance and Akane are good varieties for the South, but perhaps that advice isn't specific enough.

The best resource for that will be your extension service. Almost without exception they will have lists of fruit tree cultivars that perform best in your area. And that can differ even by county.

Interesting. I called my extension service a couple of months ago, and they recommended an article on the University of Georgia Web site. But I can call them again and see if they can offer me some specific recommendations for our county.

As will your extension service. In my area, this is less of a concern (excluding those varieties that are pollination non-starters, like Gravenstein), as bloom times have a heavy overlap. That may be a benefit for you as well.

Glad to have another place to ask the pollination question as well—thanks.

a) would not purchase something as site conditional as a fruit tree from a very so-so vendor like Spring Hills

Yeah, I realize they don't have the greatest reputation. 😹 Besides, I didn't want to pay that much anyway. 😉

would never purchase a specimen larger than what can be offered bare root, so a late winter or early spring planting only

Makes sense. I wanted to plant something in the fall to give the roots plenty of time to settle in before warm weather, but maybe I'll have to be a bit more flexible.

c) make sure the tree is small enough to make necessary initial structural pruning, which also means not a full size tree but one on some sort of dwarfing rootstock that makes annual pruning and harvesting easy.

Well, I've heard that dwarf and semi-dwarf rootstocks don't live nearly as long as standard ones, so that's why I wanted to go with standard. I've also heard that standards are more drought-resistant (and flood-resistant), grow more quickly, and are also less susceptible to various problems, some of which might even kill a tree.

It's also important to point out that the "cedar" in cedar-apple rust are not true cedars but really junipers, primarily Juniperus virginiana, aka "red cedar".

And I do have plenty of those trees in the area 😏, but I was at least hoping that certain apple varieties might be resistant to this rust.

" I do have a lot of juniper trees where I live, but have also had apple trees in the past that were at least reasonably productive. So . . . are even "disease resistant" apple trees highly susceptible to cedar-apple rust, I wonder? 🤔 "

One of my 3 trees is "Liberty" which I bought from Stark Bros way back when. Despite being sold as a low maintenance and resistant tree it still gets hit with cedar rust annually. My apple trees look great in early spring, they'll bloom nicely and set some fruit, but soon afterwards the CR hits them hard and they'll drop all their leaves and fruit by early summer. They will put out new leaves later on (like right now) but it's too late to help, they die a looooong slow death over the years.

My apple trees look great in early spring, they'll bloom nicely and set some fruit, but soon afterwards the CR hits them hard and they'll drop all their leaves and fruit by early summer. They will put out new leaves later on (like right now) but it's too late to help, they die a looooong slow death over the years.

Ouch. Well, since I have so many junipers around, getting apple trees might be a lost cause for me as well. 😬

A good indicator would be if any of your nearby neighbors have an apple tree that they say produces well, or not. My cedar trees are very close by, on the northside and eastside of my yard and within 300 ft of my apple trees. They say that CR is an every other year problem but with 5-6 cedar trees so close it ends up being every year here. To make matters worse there are also numerous squirrels here that eat any apples that might survive the CR.

vgkg wrote:

A good indicator would be if any of your nearby neighbors have an apple tree that they say produces well, or not.

I don't know of any neighbors with apple trees, but as I mentioned previously, we have had apple trees in the past that were reasonably productive. My father planted two in our back yard about 30 years ago, but one fell over a year ago, and the other one hasn't had any fruit for several years—and looks like it's slowly on the way out. But before then, they were giving us some decent apples just about every year. And when we moved here back in 1979, I remember there being an apple tree that was just loaded with fruit.

Interestingly enough, I planted an American crabapple tree near the two apple trees in our back yard to pollinate them back in 2017. And the crabapple tree seemed to be doing well—until this year. All of a sudden, it started getting rust or fire blight—and then died within just a few months! 😬 What's also interesting is that I had planted a second American crabapple the same year about 100 yards away, and it has never really looked that great. But this year it looks better than ever—and doesn't show any signs of dying. 😏

At this point, I don't know what I'm going to do. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Planting trees is always a gamble, really. Nevertheless, I may still call up my extension service and, besides asking them about recommended varieties, also ask them how much of an issue they think the cedar-apple rust might be.

Incidentally, I've planted a couple of quince trees in the past, and those got totally socked by the rust. 🤕

I know this is against conventional wisdom, but I prefer to plant potted trees from local vendors that are larger than what you can buy bare-root.

That said, many of my trees were ordered as bare-roots because they're heirlooms or varieties not found for sale locally, so I had to resort to mail order.

I've gotten beautiful stock from Trees of Antiquity. Raintree Nursery is pretty good, too. I've only placed one order from Grandpa's Orchard in Michigan and the lone tree they sent me was a very nice specimen, so I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again.

I planted "Akane" just this year. I planted (5) apple varieties with various bloom times and have scrub apples on the property and neighboring land, so I figure between all that they'll get pollinated.

What is it about "Sundance" that makes it the one you want? There are tons of apple cultivars available, and honestly I'd be leery of ordering from Spring Hill - they don't have a great reputation. Spend some time on Raintree and ToA websites and educate yourself on the different varieties and what will grow well in your area and suit your tastebuds, there may be (more than likely are...) multiple other varieties for you to consider.

re: standards: In theory great but in practical terms not so much. Semi-dwarf are going to be a heck of a lot easier to harvest from. If you want trees to perform double-duty as shade trees that's one thing, but otherwise I'd reconsider your stance on semi-dwarf.

I’ve grown Akane, Liberty, Spartan, and Honeycrisp, all on espaliered trees. My favorite is Akane, which is as beautiful to look at and very flavorful. Let your tree settle in for a couple seasons before stressing it with fruit development. It’s hard to wait, but the teee is stronger in the long run when working primarily on root development vs fruit.

Spell check failed again…

In most cases, any apple variety can pollinate any other apple variety. The only problems might be the bloom times do not match up the best, or two different apple varieties may be too genetically similar to each other, so are unable to pollinate. For the most part, these are not big problems to worry about. Some apple varieties (usually triploid) do not serve as good pollinators for other apples. (Gravenstein and Jonagold would be two examples)

It is probable that even pear trees may be able to pollinate apple trees, at least enough to cause fruit production, though probably not viable seed, though that would be a whole other controversial topic and has not been well studied.

re: Sundance: Cummins nursery has Sundance.

Link: Buy Fruit Trees, Scions, and Rootstocks - Cummins Nursery - Fruit Trees, Scions, and Rootstocks for Apples, Pears, Cherries, Plums, Peaches, and Nectarines.

I've not ordered from them, but my sister has and has been pleased with what she's received.

porkchop_z5b_MI wrote:

That said, many of my trees were ordered as bare-roots because they're heirlooms or varieties not found for sale locally, so I had to resort to mail order.

I live in a rural area and don't know of any good local vendors, so I'll probably have to do mail order.

I've gotten beautiful stock from Trees of Antiquity. Raintree Nursery is pretty good, too. I've only placed one order from Grandpa's Orchard in Michigan and the lone tree they sent me was a very nice specimen, so I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again.

Thanks for the info.

I planted "Akane" just this year. I planted (5) apple varieties with various bloom times and have scrub apples on the property and neighboring land, so I figure between all that they'll get pollinated.

Have you had any apples yet?

What is it about "Sundance" that makes it the one you want?

I was doing some research on the Web a few weeks ago, trying to find the best trees for the South with good disease resistance that would also be able to pollinate one another. And I ended up (tentatively) deciding on Sundance and Akane.

honestly I'd be leery of ordering from Spring Hill - they don't have a great reputation.

Well, I've reconsidered buying from them. 😏

Spend some time on Raintree and ToA websites and educate yourself on the different varieties and what will grow well in your area and suit your tastebuds, there may be (more than likely are...) multiple other varieties for you to consider.

Okay, sounds like a good idea.

re: standards: In theory great but in practical terms not so much.

So you want me to lower my standards? 😉

Semi-dwarf are going to be a heck of a lot easier to harvest from. If you want trees to perform double-duty as shade trees that's one thing, but otherwise I'd reconsider your stance on semi-dwarf.

Makes sense. While I wouldn't want a complete dwarf, I may consider semi-dwarf at least.

Jj J wrote:

My favorite is Akane, which is as beautiful to look at and very flavorful. Let your tree settle in for a couple seasons before stressing it with fruit development. It’s hard to wait, but the teee is stronger in the long run when working primarily on root development vs fruit.

Thanks for the info.

socalnolympia wrote:

In most cases, any apple variety can pollinate any other apple variety. The only problems might be the bloom times do not match up the best, or two different apple varieties may be too genetically similar to each other, so are unable to pollinate . . . . It is probable that even pear trees may be able to pollinate apple trees, at least enough to cause fruit production, though probably not viable seed, though that would be a whole other controversial topic and has not been well studied.

Didn't know that—and very interesting. I actually do have a couple of older pear trees too.

porkchop_z5b_MI wrote:

re: Sundance: Cummins nursery has Sundance. . . . I've not ordered from them, but my sister has and has been pleased with what she's received.

Yeah, I had visited their Web site a few weeks ago, but initially wasn't interested because they weren't doing any fall shipping. However, I may reconsider—and glad to hear that your sister's had a positive experience with them.

"Have you had any apples yet?"

Oh heavens no. It takes a few years for a fruit tree to become bearing size; I just planted Akana this year.

How Long Does It Take for an Apple Tree to Grow? Find Out! — Raintree Nursery

porkchop_z5b_MI wrote:

Oh heavens no. It takes a few years for a fruit tree to become bearing size; I just planted Akana this year.

Of course. 😄 You said that you planted 5 varieties, but didn't mention when you planted them all, so I figured maybe some of the trees were a bit older.

Incidentally, I looked at the article you linked to on the Raintree Nursery site, as well as some of their other articles. But unfortunately, they give some contradictory information.

One article says this: "Typically the distance between apple trees should be at least 2-3 wider than the tree is expected to grow tall." Well, if standard apple trees grow 20 to 30 feet tall, then that would mean they should be anywhere from 40 to 90 feet apart. But then according to another Raintree article, "These [standard] trees need ample space to grow and thrive, so it's crucial to plant them 20 to 25 feet apart."

So, Raintree Nursery, which is it?? 🤪

I talked to my county-extension agent again yesterday. She basically just pointed me to this article on the University of Georgia Web site:

https://fieldreport.caes.uga.edu/publications/C740/home-garden-apples/

I had read that article months ago, but was hoping that she could give me some county-specific recommendations. However, she didn't really add much to what's already in the article.

A few things we discussed:

1) She said that many of the popular varieties, like Gala and Golden Delicious, have done well in our county.

2) She stated that even though she doesn't know anyone personally who's planted varieties like Liberty or Enterprise, she's heard that their resistance to disease is actually what it's cracked up to be.

3) She said that, in Northeast Georgia, it's definitely better to plant apples trees in the fall, if you can.

4) She mentioned that bare-root and potted trees each have their pros and cons, with bare-root being more susceptible to transplant shock and potted more likely to experience root rot.

Anyway, I'm glad I called—it was free and I picked up a bit of good info. At this point, instead of getting two regular apple trees, I'm thinking about just getting a Liberty (since it's supposed to have great disease resistance) and then planting a Dolgo crabapple close by as a pollinator.

Liberty is a great apple for flavor and disease resistance. I have grown it in 3 gardens. It is not resistant to woodpeckers, lol!

All the apple trees I have purchased were dwarf or semi dwarf bare root trees that were selected so I could espalier. All were purchased from local garden centers. I’ve grown pre-espaliered trees a few times and these were 3 varieties grafted to one trunk so the varieties pollinate each other.

Spartan plays nicely with Liberty- good flavor and disease resistance. Of course, this is just my experience growing in WA and OR.

Jj J wrote:

Liberty is a great apple for flavor and disease resistance. I have grown it in 3 gardens. It is not resistant to woodpeckers, lol!

I wonder—how exactly would one breed for woodpecker resistance? 😉 Glad to hear it has both excellent flavor and disease resistance.

All the apple trees I have purchased were dwarf or semi dwarf bare root trees that were selected so I could espalier. All were purchased from local garden centers. I’ve grown pre-espaliered trees a few times and these were 3 varieties grafted to one trunk so the varieties pollinate each other.

Interesting—I've never even seen an espaliered tree in real life, much less grown one.

Spartan plays nicely with Liberty- good flavor and disease resistance. Of course, this is just my experience growing in WA and OR.

Hadn't heard of Spartan before—good to know.

There's a nursery in South Carolina near Columbia called Hallman Farms, and I've ordered a few fruit trees from them in the past, which I've been reasonably satisfied with:

https://hallmanfarms.com/

Yesterday, I talked with the owner, Benny Hallman. A few things we discussed:

1) He said that Liberty has amazing disease resistance, and he's never seen one actually succumb to rust.

2) He said that the Dolgo crabapple is another winner, producing big yields quickly and also offering good disease resistance.

3) When I asked him if Dolgo could reasonably pollinate Liberty, interestingly enough, he replied, "I'm not really the person to ask about that." 😏 But since they're both in Pollination Group 2, my guess is yes.

4) I asked him how far apart to plant the trees, and he said that since the bees will typically do most of the pollinating, any distance of less than about 50 yards should probably work fine.

5) He said that his bare-root trees will probably ship in December or January, whereas his potted trees could ship as early as a month from now.

On his Web site, Liberty is only offered in potted form (one size, standard rootstock), while the Dolgo has several options: bare-root (one size) and potted (two sizes). Right now, I'm thinking about ordering both trees—and getting the larger potted size for the Dolgo—since I'd like to get these in the ground as soon as possible.

I'll probably decide for sure in the next couple of days or so, and then it will actually be nice to stop thinking about this. 🤣

What you don't seem to be considering based on your posts is what flavor profile you want. What type of apple do you like? Do you even know? There are literally 1000s of apple varieties to choose from -- an apple isn't just "an apple".

For example, I get a terrible aftertaste from most of the apples that are commonly available in the markets with only a few exceptions. The sweeter the apple, the worse the aftertaste -- blech. People jump up and down about Honeycrisp = no thanks, I'll pass. Others have very little flavor so why bother. I've found that I like a healthy dose of tartness/acidity along with a level of sweetness to balance that sharpness. So I chose apples to grow that are described as having this type of flavor profile.

Make a list of varieties based on the flavor you want first, then narrow down those choices based on growing zone, growing conditions, disease resistance, etc. Because

there isn't a point to growing a fruit if you don't particularly care for the taste of it as far as I'm concerned.

porkchop_z5b_MI wrote:

What you don't seem to be considering based on your posts is what flavor profile you want. What type of apple do you like? Do you even know? There are literally 1000s of apple varieties to choose from -- an apple isn't just "an apple".

Well, you know what they say—beggars can't be choosers. 😏 With so many juniper trees in my area, I'd be happy with any apple tree that can grow successfully. And Liberty definitely seems to be the best candidate in that regard. Besides, most of the opinions I've read about Liberty describe it as pretty tasty. Not only that, it's supposed to be very productive.

For example, I get a terrible aftertaste from most of the apples that are commonly available in the markets with only a few exceptions. The sweeter the apple, the worse the aftertaste -- blech. People jump up and down about Honeycrisp = no thanks, I'll pass.

I don't usually have a problem with the flavor of most organic apples I buy —my main concern is that they be nice and crisp. The only time I don't really care about texture is when I'm planning to cook them, which I'll do if I buy them during the off season.

I've found that I like a healthy dose of tartness/acidity along with a level of sweetness to balance that sharpness.

That does sound ideal.

Make a list of varieties based on the flavor you want first, then narrow down those choices based on growing zone, growing conditions, disease resistance, etc. Because there isn't a point to growing a fruit if you don't particularly care for the taste of it as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the pointer.