There is one course of action. Stop payment from her cc company immediately. Tell the stone fabricator the ply must be removed and upgraded. It can e removed without damage. But she should be onsite to document the process. It this is not takn care of cancel all payments and move on to another stone contractor.

Please post pics. It is hard to comment on something we can't see.

We had plywood nailed to our countertops for six months as a temporary countertop. It was removed and we then had marble installed. Removal of the top did not complicate fastening our new counter. But, I guess it all depends on how and where nails were used.

The countertop is not yet installed?

What is " the worst grade of plywood "?

If the countertop is not installed, simply remove the plywood and install a better grade.

What is the problem?

@dan1888 Thank you for suggesting. My friend says the store already got 70% payment from her upfront. Fabricator told her that removing plywood is not his responsibility and he's just there to put the countertop on. The store owner is on vacation so she'll have to wait for him to come back to discuss further with him.

@Kendrah Thanks, I'll try to get a photo from her.

@PPF. Thank you for commenting. Countertop not yet installed. Worst grade as in Grade D. She says it has many holes all over it, some as large as 2 inches in diameter. Primary concern is the damaging of her old oak cabinets from the 90's when they pull out the bad subtop and complications from fastening a new subtop onto her cabinets given all the nail holes that are already there. But it sounds like it's not really a problem from what I'm hearing on here.

A D grade face will/may have large unfilled knots, not holes.

Probably a CDX or CD plywood with the C face down.

Nothing wrong with this plywood in this application, and no need to replace.

PPF is correct and I have food for thought before you start your next project. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the broth. When I was contracting the LAST thing I wanted to hear was "a guy on the internet told me_________". I would walk off the job if someone told me "my friend said a guy on the web told my friend to tell me to tell my contractor".

Sign on wall reads "Our labor rates" ;

$40 per hour

$50 if you watch

$60 if you tell us how to do it

$100 if you help

What's so hard to understand about blind leading the blind concerning that plywood?

Plywood that is supporting a 2 cm slab doesn't need to be pretty. The plywood will never be seen again once the counters are installed. The cabinets provide most of the support with the plywood reducing any potential flex.

Is your friend in CA? We installed 2 cm quartzite over plywood when we remodeled the kitchen in our previous house in LA.

You don't use roof sheathing (CDX) for countertop substrate; it's too floppy, particularly on cantilevers. That's why they don't build cabinets out of the stuff. I'm not a fan of full underlayment; too much movement compared to the stone. Cabinet grade plywood strips on perimeter cabinet tops, Corian style, is plenty and will lie much flatter, particularly over time.

@PPF. Thank you for the information.

@klem1 I understand it can be frustrating and problematic for homeowners to get involved, telling contractors what to do, and the notion to just "leave it to the professionals". But there are also bad contractors out there. I'm not necessarily saying that that's the case here. But in general, I don't see how a homeowner who's never worked with a particular contractor can protect themselves without trying to learn, observe, and communicate to the contractor at certain points along the way.

@chispa Definitely the cosmetics of the plywood won't matter other than whether they indicate a weaker support somehow, but it seems to not be a factor in your own install, and there seems to be some variation in viewpoints here on whether it's actually meant to support the countertop in the first place. Yes, my friend is in California.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC Thank you for sharing.

@Monique Thank you for that insight.

" Fabricator told her that removing plywood is not his responsibility and he's just there to put the countertop on "

He is correct and I am with Joseph in the fact that a full plywood deck is not not best method and strips properly placed is far better. Sheathing Grade (CDX) is awful to use for just about anything besides its intended purpose, especially this application. Just my opinion.

@millworkman, you aren't easily going to change the habits of trades people in CA!

They use plywood under-layment with 2 cm slabs and many still use mop and tar to waterproof showers. I was surprised when I did my first shower in CA and they were carrying buckets of hot tar up my stairs! The mop and tar crew (and owners) were two women!

"But in general, I don't see how a homeowner who's never worked with a particular contractor can protect themselves without trying to learn, observe, and communicate to the contractor at certain points along the way."

Homeowner should do the bulk of learning BEFORE signing a contract. Learning doesn't mean one must learn enough to go on jobsite to supervise details of job. If one already has experience and/or expertise but has questions regarding one or two issues they might be able to wing it solo with tips from the web. Three most popular ways of hiring contractors is #1. Best for majority of homeowners is hire based on reputation and/or on solid referral by one or more people. #2. Hire someone to represent homeowner's interest from leading up to signing contract,during construction and final walk through and punch-out. #3 If homeowner has a sister or acquaintance with expertise willing represent them gratis , great, that is 10x better than free they find on the net or on the street.

I was that "someone" in #2 for my employers almost as many years as I had my own business. I didn't know everything and occasionally had to pay a specialist to help tie up loose ends. In conjunction with various people within company, ranging from those that would use finished product ( remodeled bldg, new havc, new flooring ect) to company excs I created a scope of work for contracts. I've lost count of times building occupant insisted on larger unit when replacing hvac. My stance was tell me what old one wasn't doing not what I should do to remedy it. Your friend should be asking material supplier for industry standards instead of asking you to ask us our opinions. The proof is in the pudding, opinions varied , how do you know which to follow? One should know that a problem actually exists and what needs to be done to remedy said problem before sticking a finger in contractor's behind. NOT derailing process then go looking for justification for the action.

@millworkman Thank you for chiming in.

@klem1 My words were ambiguous, and I didn't intend them to mean that most learning be done while work is already in progress. I believe as much learning as possible should be done before the contract is signed, as you mentioned. I also believe that as much discussion as possible should occur between the homeowner and contractor before that point. Because it's a pain for everyone once things are in motion. However, nobody can truly see into the future, and this strategy is no guarantee of a problem-free project. I know I'm straying from the original topic and maybe this question is too broad, but what are your thoughts on the right degree of involvement a homeowner should take once a project has already begun with a contractor they've never worked with? I don't think it's wise to only come in at the end after everything has been completed for the sake of staying out of the contractor's way. And I don't know the extent to which my friend's project has been derailed, but it's unfair to say that the motivation here is to fish for justification for such an action. I appreciate the other things you've written.

When trying to act as the job GC and designer, you have to learn what those roles mean. Or, you hire a job GC and/or designer, to be the liaison, responsibility assumer, and to know what you don't know. Either role is a lot more than making phone calls and picking out pretty things.

Wow Klem - I would never work with a Contractor who thinks s/he knows everything and is not interested in listening to the person paying them - you get to walk away and never see the project again while the homeowner has to live with and work in the final result.

Watching and commenting was the only thing that saved my Kitchen in my previous remodel and they weren't the worst that I've heard out there.

Yes, they said they "knew better", but that was NOT the case, which I proved several times (and my KD actually backed me).

Oh and posting my issues on line (Kitchens Forum) helped as well - Corporate for the design company I was working with got wind of it and cracked down on them. Not long after, I heard, they no longer worked for the design company. (We had some punch list items that had to be addressed by a different Contractor b/c the design company let the original Contractor go - the new Contractor was fine.)

----

Fortunately, the Contractor for our just-completed partial Kitchen remodel was wonderful and we had no issues with them! They were attentive to detail and consulted me when possible problems arose. We worked together to solve issues. That's a true partnership!

Wow Klem - I would never work with a Contractor who thinks s/he knows everything My sentiments exactly,hence " I didn't know everything and occasionally had to pay a specialist to help tie up loose ends" and is not interested in listening to the person paying them - you get to walk away and never see the project again while the homeowner has to live with and work in the final result. Bingo! " In conjunction with various people within company, ranging from those that would use finished product ( remodeled bldg, new havc, new flooring ect) to company excs I created a scope of work for contracts."

Obviously we have similar views but I'm flattered to have elicited the wow factor.

"But in general, I don't see how a homeowner who's never worked with a particular contractor can protect themselves without trying to learn, observe, and communicate to the contractor at certain points along the way."

James Lee:

A homeowner gets what, where, when, and why. The contractor keeps how and who.

Once the boat has run aground as it appears job that started this thread has, it requires extraordinary skill to salvage the deal without contractor or homeowner being hosed.

. "LEARNING" keeps coming up. I don't know everything but I know that learning while paying people to work can be v-e-r-y expensive. Something that hasn't been mentioned is change order. Is there one amongst us that believes change orders shouldn't increase cost for consumer? Unless you contract several months out,pay a deposit and agree to inflation, you can't be picky about contractors. That being the case, how many couples lounge about the house M-F ? Even if you don't have to work, most if not all of work is performed by employees NOT company owner. And guess what, a significant number of workers can't fluently speak English and the few that can certainly aren't authorized to cut deals behind owner's back.

If one can find congenial, highly skilled owner/operators willing to start each day over coffee planning, I'm happy for you but most folks can't even find anyone ready to work.

"The contractor keeps how and who."

Again, no. If we had followed that (especially "how"), we would not have had an externally vented range hood in our previous Kitchen. The Contractor claimed it couldn't be done b/c a drain pipe from the above shower was in the way. When pressed, they finally admitted it could be done, but it would be too much work and too expensive. They were wrong on all counts!

They tried to tell me to move the drain pipe would cost $5,800 dollars and require a lot of drywall work in the upstairs bathroom.

When I challenged them, they tried to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about and I should defer to them b/c they've been doing this for over 20 years and knew better than me. Really?

I had it done for $950 and NO drywall work. They tried to back pedal saying they didn't know there was a whole-house vent stack and that they didn't examine it that closely. Really? You gave me a cost without actually looking into how it could be done?

Well the two plumbers I brought in for estimates looked and examined what had to be done before making any declarations of "it can't be done" or providing estimates.

(One plumber was there for unrelated work - we needed a new hot water heater, so I asked him and one other to look into moving the drain pipe.)

The Contractor and Homeowner should be a team -- working through issues encountered together.

Thank you everyone for your inputs.

@Buehl I'm definitely with you and have formed the same kind of sentiments over the years after going through many home renovation projects spanning nearly every part of my home. I too have experiences where my being informed/observant saved the project by allowing me to catch problems promptly and problem-solve them with the contractor before they became even bigger headaches for the both of us. I've also experienced cases where I was too trusting of the contractor's workmanship and/or missed noticing problems early, and the consequences were substantial. Done right, I believe a homeowner's partnership with the contractor throughout the project (not just beginning and end) is crucial and would be mutually beneficial for both parties while leading to superior results and satisfaction. Every time I get estimates, I prioritize finding someone with a compatible mindset who, as you mentioned, can work through issues together with the homeowner as a team. Congratulations on your partial kitchen remodel and finding that gem of a contractor!

@klem1 Probably almost everyone would say that if the homeowner deviates from the agreed-upon work (e.g. midway into a paint job, they want to switch to another color they just discovered), then it's on the homeowner to pay for it. They can avoid these mid-project change-of-plan situations by thoroughly educating themselves of their options and having discussions with the contractor to agree on precisely what they want prior to contract signing. But the other angle is that if the contractor does an improper job of the agreed-upon work (taking into account what you mentioned earlier about the need to confirm there is indeed a problem present), then it's on the contractor to pay for the remedy. What I was trying to convey is that without the homeowner's involvement during the project (and a contractor's collaboration), it may end up being the homeowner that unfortunately pays the price for the contractor's faults. The risk goes up for contractors that the homeowner has no prior experience with.

It would have been much better for your "friend" to have hired a designer to help them with their projects, than involving someone without industry knowledge. There's only so much outside interference from "I heard it on the internet" that any contractor can take from someone not involved in that contract, before you get banned from the site.

""The contractor keeps how and who."

Again, no. If we had followed that (especially "how"), we would not have had an externally vented range hood in our previous Kitchen. The Contractor claimed it couldn't be done b/c a drain pipe from the above shower was in the way. When pressed, they finally admitted it could be done, but it would be too much work and too expensive. They were wrong on all counts!"

No, that is "what" you wanted done and you kept it as you should have.

@Rainbow Colors I understand what you're saying, but my involvement here is very limited. I am not handling my friend's project and certainly not trying to talk to her contractor. She wouldn't want me to shoulder all that. My friend simply had a question, and I was familiar with Houzz (which I've been very grateful for in my own projects). Despite the direction things have gone on this topic, my original intention was just to post a question about plywood so she can read the responses.