I did grow 'Soleil d'Or' for a few years, but it insisted on cultivating a chronic Blackspot infection in spite of the fact that I used 2 different fungicides on it every 7 days. It died in one season when I stopped spraying it. I've never seen a worse rose for Blackspot.

Jackie, you should obtain old ARS annuals from the late "teens" through the mid 1930s and read their "Proof of the Pudding" reports. "Pernetianas", HT's descended from breeding with R. Foetida, were highly reported on as they were the "new thing" in the rose world. New colors, new foliage textures and colors, new scents (Foetida ushered in "fruity" scents) and they were mostly found to be decent in arid, Mediterranean climates. Rust was a regular issue with many of them and some had troubles with mildew. Black spot was chronic in wetter, warmer areas and the vast majority of the type were referred to as "thirty minute roses" because of their softer petals, fewer petals than many other lines of breeding and floppier shapes. By the early to mid 1930s, most were no longer referred to by that term as they had mostly been absorbed into the HT "class". I've grown many of them, and loved most. Your Peace rose is pretty much a late "Pernetiana". Most of the mauve HTs are the result of "Penetianas". These days, the only ones I retain are Soeur Therese, Grand Duchess Charlotte and Forty Niner, which is a little late for the type but the foliage, growth, disease pressures and that "Austrian Copper" color scheme place it in that group to my eyes. Both Soeur Therese and Grand Duchess Charlotte share the too-long peduncle which was passed on to Charlotte Armstrong and bitterly complained about by most of the European rose breeders of the day; the soft petals and floppy shape. They also share the vicious prickles meant to shred your skin and provide the plant with all the blood it can harvest from you.

In the right places, in the right conditions and climates, they are beautiful examples of early Twentieth Century rose breeding. Where unsuited, they're a real curse.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR That looks great! I did like it a lot, when it was having a good day, but those were few and too far between. It's definitely a parched dry climate rose.

Does "Betty" fit too here?

I can't wait to get my new camera protector.

There used to be a great blog from San Jose that had the most amazing pictures of pernetianas. I forget the name now, though. I'm just dipping my toe back into the pernetiana waters with Souv. de Claudius Pernet, after failing with a number of others. Los Angeles was the one that really broke my heart, back when I was collecting Howard and Smith roses. It seems even ten years ago pernetianas were much more availalble than they are today.

Here might be a blog post like you are thinking of @Formerly RBEHS Z10A/S17, by Masha, who took so many great photos at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden that are on HMF: In Praise of Potted Pernetianas.

My current Pernetianas, "Lundy's Lane Yellow", 'Etoile de Feu', and 'Grus an Coburg' are all in the ground, but they are, as mentioned by Masha, among the more vigorous of the Pernetianas. Mine are all at least 5'+ tall (LLY occasionally shoots up beyond 7'). I have also seen some healthy specimens of other Pernetianas on HMF. But the 'Duquesa de Penaranda' which I had only briefly could have benefitted from being in a pot for sure -- such a frail little thing with such a huge flower and putting it in the ground was its death knell (we're not talking posh conditions in my backyard with the soils here).

As Paul mentions, they seem each and every one prone to BS which, like for Sheila, is not an issue in my garden. On the plus side, they never get powdery mildew, which generally runs rampant here and this year especially ('Mme. Lambard', at the moment, looks like a tragedy, to name just one).

I hope your cuttings take, Jackie! Looking forward to seeing what it looks like.

Here are some photos of 'Gruss an Coburg':

This is in the shade, making her look a bit more pink than she actually is, but gives you an idea of the shrub:

Here is a vase of her flowers showing more typical color:

And here was the top of "Lundy's Lane Yellow" a week or so ago (April 9, 2026 actually):

I love every pernetiana I've ever met in person. They just seem to glow, and they are mostly more graceful shrubs than later HTs. But I've tried to grow several, and they just aren't hardy here without careful protection. They also don't like our wild Spring temperature swings, 80's to 20's (this year has been even worse than usual, grrr. Goodbye, hydrangeas). They push very early growth here, which then gets frost-killed, which sets up a cycle of dieback. Alas, my garden is too big, and requires too much winterization of *almost* hardy plants as it is (Figs! Cannas! Cistus! Zebrina! Callistemon! Zingiber! Hedychium! Erythrina! Oh, my!). I'll just have to enjoy the pernetianas vicariously through your gardens. I request more photos, pretty please????????

@catspa_zone9sunset14 that's the blog I was thinking of, thank you!

I did also grow 'Gruss an Coburg' for many years, but I never really thought of it as a Pernetiana — it grew (and looked) just like any other early period Hybrid Tea.

Most sources refer to it as a Hybrid Tea.

I tend to agree about 'Grus an Coburg', Paul. One parent is 'Souvenir de Claudius Pernet' and Brent Dickerson did slot it into the Pernetianas in The Old Rose Adventurer. But its leaves aren't shiny and, like you say, the shrub and flowers seem more typical of early HTs. It's at least not a "typical" Pernetiana. It's sure an easy-going rose to grow, fine narcissus-spice scent. Really great rose for cutting.

Thinking more about what Paul said about 'Gruss an Coburg' begged the question, "What the heck is a Pernetiana rose anyway?" Lineage is obviously part of it, but appearance also, a "you know it when you see it" sort of thing. I think of glistening petals of some substance in blends of warms colors, with the blooms moving rather quickly after opening into looser, sometimes even disheveled forms, and many times lasting only briefly (which is where 'Gruss an Coburg' also differs, its blooms staying orderly and intact for some days). Shiny leaves? What else distinguishes them, appearance-wise? It's hard for me to put it into words.

Jackie, I found this thread on here from 8 years ago, "Pernetiana Roses, 1917", where you discussed your Oakland Hills rose and there are photos of it (scroll down about 13 posts). What a beauty!

Edit to add: I like the word KittyNY6 used to describe the blooms of your rose, Jackie: "voluptuous". Maybe that's one of the words I'm looking for in what distinguishes Pernetianas.

Thank you all so much for the info, and especially catspa for finding that old thread, and for giving me hope that I might be able to grow it.

Here are some pics I took 8 years ago of the rose I am now trying to root - any guesses?

Jackie

I grow a few Pernetianas, or, close descendants of these roses. I'm south of San Francisco, in a Mediterranean climate, as well. The roses tend to be eager growers in this area that is not often plagued by blackspot. On occasion, when there is humid weather that is not cold or rainy, rust will briefly appear on their leaves. If there is mildew, that tends to be short-lived, usually transmitted from adjacent and mildew-prone roses. If there are conditions for blackspot it crops up though, um, nothing dies from that in my garden.

I also agree that the rich colors, thick petals, and relatively rapid progression to blowsiness seem to be characteristics of the Pernetianas.

Mrs. Arthur Robert Waddell is a Pernet-Ducher Pernetiana / hybrid tea that resembles a slight stature tea rose. The semi-double blooms are a soft orange-pink blend flushed with some yellow. Smells like apricot to me!

I grow Soeur Therese and Eclipse, lanky growers with rich saturation and continuous flushes during the warm months, and petals that relax rapidly in any heat. Sweet fragrance though subtle.

Mrs. Jennie Deverman has been a reliable blooming machine with little foliar disease that I can recall. The petals are substantial and the form tends to be more semi-double than double. I acquired her parent, President Herbert Hoover, recently and I am looking forward to how that fares. I have admired President Herbert Hoover in public gardens for years, and the young plant has offered an immature flower, seductively peachy warm in tone, and I await further buds with great anticipation.

Talisman tends to look a little beleaguered in between flushes though it is still a solid grower on its own roots for me. A bit shorter than the other Pernetiana roses. The orange juice scent and kaleidoscopic variation of color combinations charm me.

The bicolor Talisman effect emerges in its descendants here and there among the later classic hybrid teas. One of the child plants of Talisman is Contrast, also a Howard and Smith creation, pictured below. The variability in color goes from rosy pink and cream to yellow touched by flame-like bronze, orange, and red in this rose. The central petals tend to be shy in opening completely to the stamens which is considered a fault in form. I don't much care because the plant itself is healthy and blooms in generous flushes throughout the year.

I received a mislabeled plant from Burlington Rose Nursery that is supposed to actually be Federico Casas. It has shiny green leaves, an upright habit and a similar color palette to Contrast, in semi-double flowers that tend more to a warm, yellow-suffused cerise.

I have Contrast also and really like it. It's one of those roses that can look lanky and messy but then have a surprise, ephemeral perfect bloom.

I completely forgot — many years ago (before The Big Freeze of 2015) I was growing 'Hinrich Gaede' and it was amazing. The colors were a blend of orange and yellow and Chinese red that were quite spectacular.

It's wonderful, and inspiring, to hear of the variety of Pernetianas you grow @WildWhiteRose and your take on their characteristics. I agree about 'Talisman' looking "somewhat beleaguered" -- the powdery mildew was just too much for him here.

I love your photo of 'Hinrich Gaede' on HMF, Paul -- those are some amazing colors!

The variety of colors and how variable the blends of colors can be on the blooms of a given plant is part of the Pernetiana character. And, like @Formerly RBEHS Z10A/S17 says, how the new blooms can range from way less than perfect to perfect, for whatever reason.

Speaking of which, for Jackie, I was cruising through my 'Etoile de Feu' photos over the years (after re-indexing those folders so they could actually be found!) and found this photo, which somewhat resembles your third photo of your mystery rose. So I began wondering if 'Etoile de Feu' might start off a list of possible candidates for its ID?

From 10/28/2021:

But here are some samples of different looks:

Another from late fall, on Halloween, 2022:

May of 2021:

March 26, 2026:

Here is the whole shrub, about 5' tall with shiny, relatively stiff, dark green leaves, March 26, 2026:

From April 2016, its third year here, leaves with blackspot...

Thank you, catspa - I will keep these photos of 'Etoile de Feu' you posted to compare with mine if it roots and survives into a blooming plant.

Jackie

I used to grow Climbing Shot Silk and it was one of my favorite roses. However it would not be happy here in zone 5. I doubt it could survive at all.

In any case, it is very difficult to find it any more. If you have the climate, and if you can find someone who can give you a start, I highly recommend this extravagant and stunning rose. Lovely color, great vigor, and oh! the scent! Note: it rewards rich culture.

@catspa_zone9sunset14 wonderful photos of 'Etoile de Feu'! I grow it here in Vancouver, WA, and it's the most blackspot-prone rose I've ever grown. Even if I spray it, it seems to drop all of its leaves once a season. I always evaluate new plants it in a pot before I decide to plant them in the garden, and it was so much healthier in a pot! So this past winter I intended to lift it and grow it on in a large pot - but while digging it up, I realized a stem had developed its own roots. So I separated that and am growing that smaller plant on in a pot and am going to try the mother plant under the wide eaves of our house with drip irrigation. It's such a beauty, I'm hoping I can find a way to keep it reasonably healthy. The blackspot doesn't seem to weaken the plant much - it continues blooming well throughout the season, but blooms on sticks just don't do it for me! :)

Speaking of blackspot, I also grow 'Soleil d'Or' and am shocked by how little blackspot it gets for me. I do see some leaves drop in early summer, but it's never the complete disaster that I see poor 'Etoile de Feu' endure.

I'm also growing 'Condesa de Sastago' which was absolutely stunning in a pot, but it's slowed down a bit in the garden. I suspect it would grow better as a budded plant, but I have what I have, and I'll just keep caring for it. It does seem to build up slowly year after year, so once the framework is fully in place, I suspect it will do better.

I grew 'Autumn' for several years but finally had to rehome it this year. It was healthy, bloomed very well, but I just didn't like the blooms. I found myself deadheading them as soon as they fully opened, because I didn't like seeing them.

I grew 'Gruss an Coburg' in a previous garden and regret not bringing it with me. I figured it would be easy to replace, but now several years later, I'm finding it inexplicably hard to find.

However, the Hybrid Teas with heavy Pernetiana ancestry are quickly becoming some of my favorite plants in the garden: 'WAVES', 'Apricot Queen', 'Diamond Jubilee', 'Sierra Glow', 'Royal Sunset'...and 'Mission Bells' was glorious, but it didn't survive a cold snap its first winter. Burling is such a great resource for these goodies. I have to hold myself back from perusing her plant list!

Comtesse du Cayla here.

@John (PNW zone 8), very interesting account of your 'Etoile de Feu'. Here the black spot it gets so readily is not much of an issue; it only happens very rarely, early in seasons when conditions happen to favor it, and has never defoliated the plant, which soon grows past it. My plant did take its time getting established and attaining its current stature, which may be the path your 'Condesa de Sastago' is following. Meanwhile, "Lundy's Lane Yellow", which is right next to it and planted the same year, took off immediately, and often shoots up to 7 or 8' during the season -- a rather vigorous Pernetiana, to be sure! (LLY also only gets incidental blackspot here; it is virused, a hint it was in commerce at some point, whatever it is). I hope your efforts with 'Etoile de Feu' work out -- it produces, without doubt, some of the most pleasing, wonderful and voluptuous blooms of any rose in my garden, and the foliage is very nice, too, when it is there! I hope to root another plant or two of it this year.

Burling, at least, has 'Gruss an Coburg' on this year's list. I have found it not difficult to root.

I, too, find the Pernetiana types very pleasing here and will need to look into some of those with heavy Pernetiana ancestry that you mention.

Hmmmm, would 'Clementina Carbonieri' (of commerce) fit in here? Mine is in full bloom right now, and the fruit-juice-colored blooms are stunning. Fragrant; large plant, perhaps not quite a climber; gets some mildew, like about half of my roses do at one point or another; blooms burn very quickly in the sun; strong vigorous grower not demanding much care. Has this rose ever been correctly identified? Is it grown much in the U.S.?

Melissa, my CC is small here. Yours sounds wonderful.

Melissa and Sheila, I think that although the warm colors of 'Comtesse du Cayla' and 'Clementina Carbonieri' are delightful and along the lines of those of some Pernetianas, they are, respectively, a China and a tea and lack the sort of lineage that produces the Pernetiana hybrid tea 'look' that Joseph Pernet-Ducher established with his foundational variety, 'Soleil d'Or', a cross between a hybrid perpetual and Rosa foetida. (The Rosa foetida genes seem to be both the blessing and the curse of the Pernetianas -- fantastic warm colors, yes, but a tendency to blackspot to the nth degree).

I loved 'Clementina Carbonieri' when I grew it here -- the best looking shrub on the lot, especially for a tea, and quite vigorous, but its blooms fried so quickly during our long, hot summers (by 9 am some days, ditto 'Monsier Tillier', by the way) that they could only be enjoyed a few days of the year, so I moved on to teas with lighter-colored, more resilient blooms. They crisped even more quickly than 'Comtesse du Cayla', which I still have, which is saying something!

Judging from the list of gardens where it is grown on HMF, it looks a fair number of gardens in the U.S. has 'Clementina Carbonieri', Melissa, especially for a tea.

SdO and Rosa Foetida here, with Persian Yellow and Hazeldean coming on.

Austrian Copper

SdO

Wow, @Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR, that really shows why Soleil d'Or was such a groundbreaking rose (in the right conditions).

Thanks, @catspa_zone9sunset14 - I was able to get 'Gruss an Coburg' added to an order I have coming from Burling in a couple of weeks. It will be so nice to have it again!

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR how large and old is your beautiful 'Soleil d'Or'? Mine looks dainty by comparison, but it's only a few years old at this point.

John, mine might be 10 years old or so from RVRs. I bought two because Paul Barden said it was the worst rose bush, and I was trying to get something from all classes. Ha, Ha.

It is adjacent to Marianne which is one of the best roses, but just starting here. They look great together.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR that's a great story! Are you still growing two plants of it? How is the repeat bloom for you? I remember mine repeated very well when I was growing it in a pot (to build it up to planting-out size). But for the past few years it's been in the ground, and I've only seen one flush of blooms.

Thanks for your reply, catspa; it's always helpful to get this kind of feedback. I agree with you about the burning, but fortunately we have periods of mild weather when I can enjoy those amazing blooms. It may actually help that I don't irrigate. No water, no blooms, so CC sails flowerless and unperturbed through the dry hot summer, then flowers again in fall when the rains come again...if they come.

Naturally I posted my comment before taking a look at HMF. In the entry for 'Clementina Carbonieri' it says that it has been suggested the the rose in commerce as CC may actually be 'Souv. de Gilbert Nabonnand'. I went to look at the entry for the latter. The blooms shown for the two varieties look similar, though I didn't study them closely. But CC is described as getting up to about 4' x 39'', a smallish shrub, while SdGN is described as reaching 3 meters. The latter dimensions agree with my rose, which is a hefty creature.

Sheila, I wonder if your CC and mine are in fact different varieties? Your roses are MAGNIFICENT!! I would be madly envious, were it not that my roses in this period are magnificent, too.

Thank you, Melissa. I bet you are right that I have CC and you have SdGN.

John, my SdOrs do repeat regularly. I still have two on the same retaining wall.

The SdOr on the left is deeper in there. Dakota Redwing is in the middle of the SdOrs.

Marianne is just starting.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR It's great to hear that your plants of SdO repeat well. They look so good spilling over the retaining wall flanked by their beautiful companions created by Paul! My SdO has Paul's 'Diablo Hawk' towering behind it. I think this is their third year in the ground, so it should be their "leap" year, but they had to compete with some bossy dahlias in the past two years. This year dahlias have been unceremoniously banned from that bed. Hopefully that will give everything a bit more light, nutrients and space to fill out.

@John (PNW zone 8), Speaking of roses with a lot of Pernetiana ancestry in their background, one that I do have is 'Sutter's Gold', which pretty much checks all the Pernetiana boxes. Here it was last year around this time. The orange climber behind it, "Marlowe's Soft Orange", I also suspect has a lot of Pernetiana about it.

@catspa_zone9sunset14 absolutely - in fact 'Sutter's Gold' has so much Pernetiana heritage and so many of the characteristics, it surprises me that it's not classed as a Pernetiana! They're both very beautiful roses and look wonderful next to each other in your garden.

I was just hand picking rose slugs off of 'Soleil d'Or' and noticed a distinct apple scent coming from the foliage. I had never heard that this was a trait of SdO, so it was a nice surprise! No buds on SdO, yet, so here's a massive bloom that's currently on WAVES.

I have several Pernetiana roses. Talisman and Souer Therese and Saturnia, all lovely. I wish I still had my Cl. Red Talisman too. It died in the smoke of the 2020 wildfires here on the Oregon coast. It was my fave. I would love to find another to replace it in my garden.

Update - Happy to report that the cutting I took from my neice's house IS starting to grow roots inside of its one gallon zip lock bag! Once it grows more roots, I will pot it up into a small pot and keep that pot inside of my now 2 high small fish tanks in the back porch. Our new cat Trixie spends much of her time on the very top of that structure, as it is surrounded by windows. Right now she has temporarlily abandoned it, because for the past 2 days men have been here banging all day, installing 3 stories of scaffolding on our house. Hopefully when the house painters are using it, they will be quieter, and she will come back to babysit the rose cutting.

Jackie

Jackie, I recently came across another Pernetiana which is similar to 'Etoile de Feu' and might also be a candidate identity for your rose: 'Mari Dot'. Just to add to the list.