When I first moved in, I had a lot of goldenrod on my property. I kept it for many years (used it a lot in my fall bouquets when I was selling at market) but over the years I took a lot out because it always seemed to be in the wrong spot - i.e. somewhere where i wanted to plant something else lol. I do feel a bit guilty about it but there is sooo much all around here that I'm not overly upset at what I've pulled.

Now that I think about it, I've kinda done the same with Solomon's Seal, but on a smaller scale. Most of that is in the wooded areas and I work around that more in my shade gardens.

Geez, another just popped into my head. This one I HATE removing but sometimes I have to if I want to expand my gardens. Hair cap moss. My yard had huge swaths of it when I moved in. I love it. When it gets adequate water it's like having a shag carpet in your yard lol. So soft and nice to walk on, and yet so tough and low maintenance. We've lost lots of it through me adding gardens (a little piece of my heart dies every time I dig some up lol) and I think we've lost a lot through the loss of many trees over the years. Between tree loss and climate change, it hasn't been always able to survive the double whammy of hot sun and drought.

I think that's about it. There's a lot of other stuff I've removed but I believe they are all invasives (except for poison ivy and Virginia Creeper lol)

:)

Dee

Many natives are agressive spreaders. The handsome Pycnanthemums are all mints--and pretty much spread like mint; though not quite as agressive, they still are spreaders. My neighbor, despite my request that she not do so, planted milkweed in her bed that is right across the fence from mine. We are still trying to get it out of our gardens. I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

I am most certainly not against natives. I am actually a strong proponent of including many natives to help our pollinators and I have many in my garden, but you do need do understand that many natives are designed by nature to be agressive and should be planted only in meadow type plantings where they are held in check by other natives with strong root systems and perhaps aggressive tendencies themselves.

One of my 'weeds' on the allotment is Potentilla erecta, Tormentil. A delight in nature, a nightmare in the vegetable patch. For a delicate little thing it has deep woody roots like a tree sapling and runners like a strawberry. Perfectly adapted for survival in the poor soils it evolved for. A rampant menace in decent earth.

Ive wanted to get rid of a few ultra agressive native vines. I love them, but they will kill everything if left to themselves. Honeyvine, Cynanchum laeve Wooly Pipevine, Arostolochia/Isotrema tomentosa and Manroot, Ipomoea pandurata. I have them controlled enough that they arent smothering anything else. My Chinese Yam, Dioscorea bulbifera finally gave up the ghost after 2 decades. The Trumpet Vine, Campsis radicans has been beaten back to only a couple shoots showing up per year. When I grew Stylophorum in a sunnier place they self seeded a lot more than they do in deeper shade. On the upside they are easy to manage and remove, unlike other natives like Silphium and the large Verbesina that need a shovel to remove. This year the poppies grew and flowered at about a foot tall, while some years they get up to 3 feet. My main concern about too many poppies or other shade natives is that they prevent the smaller native jewels like Rue Anemone, Hepatica, Phlox divaricata, Araisaema triphyllum and dracontium, rare Viola species

Aunt Lucy, False Mermaid, Cardamines, Trillium, etc from germinating.

Center is Wood Poppy. I love diversity. The deer prefer my Tall Bellflower, Campanulastrum americanum and Jerusalem Artichokes, Helianthus tuberosus over the Hosta. They also nibble off the tender, thornless tips of my Ribes and Smilax. I think Smilax is beautiful.

The tables have been turned for this Stylophorum. It's being thugged out by Wood Nettle, Laportea canadensis, Wingstem, Verbesina alternifolia, Early Figwort, Scrophularia marilandica and Pokeweed, Phytolacca americana. It's time to thin out the Wood Nettle. I find it's sting to feel more like an itchy mosquito bite. Laportea is edible and also a butterfly host plant.

I'm sure your Wood Poppy is Stylophorum, but sometimes bad people sell the very similar looking Lesser Celendine as Stylophorum. Stylophorum handles drought really well, unlike Jewelweed. Wild Ginger is low growing, but nothing can germinate in it's dense carpet. The bare ground was to make room for my Virginia Snakeroot which never returned.

A north facing view of the previous raised bed photo with Black Cohosh getting ready to bloom. The bare ground under the blue spruce is my new project. Ive already planted it with Wild Ginger, Asarum canadense, Coralberry, Symphoricarpis orbiculata, Some Carex. The Coralberry is extremely agressive and it makes necklaces of baby Coralberries. I will eventually remove them be tweaking this bed. I want to have more ephemerals and less taller shade natives in the future. I envision a bunch of Camassia scilloides and Gillenia trifoliata and stipulata and ferns underneath that blue spruce.

The plant confused with Stylophorum would be Greater Celandine, Chelidonium majus rather than Lesser Celandine, Ficaria verna.

Thanks floral, I always get those confused. The Ficaria can be confused with Marsh Marygold, Caltha palustris which is also native over there.

This is one of my pet peeves, I'm sorry to say. That unfortunately many native proponents aggressively promote natives in a way that is very narrow and short sighted. Every garden is individual. Not just the gardener, but the location and the conditions and the climate.

In the beginning of the native movement, if I remember right, it was an across the board recommendation to plant anything that was native. It didn't seem to matter if it was native to California and you lived in New England. Thankfully, many people realized that mistake and that was amended. I have made the journey from being enthusiastic about anything native, to being much more discerning. In the beginning, I must have been like everyone else who only needed the name native to try to grow it. But the theories met reality and my views changed. I have tried a number of natives that didn't really enjoy my property. I ended up with a few that were thugs that I had to remove. I still have a lot of natives and I'm sure would buy more. But I think those who promote natives without understanding that each garden is individual and not all natives are good choices for everyone, are doing the native movement a disservice.

Virginia Creeper was the biggest thug in my garden and we had to rip all of it out. I'm still on the lookout for any of it to return. I'm sure it must work in another setting for someone, but, definitely not for me, even though I believe it is native to my area. Wood Poppy....actually when we first moved here we had the Chinese variety everywhere. I have tried to rip out all the Chinese and replace with native but, it has failed to take. Rabbits have eaten every one I planted before it could even reseed. Woodland phloxes and Tiarellas, died out after multiple attempts to get them to grow here, yet Phlox subulata did very well. Virginia Bluebells - I planted three, 25 years ago and today I have one. lol I love Solomon Seal, but two areas where it was growing died out near the bases of mature trees, yet the variegated form of Solomon's Seal has grown into 3x larger patch at the base of my Lilacs in just the past 5 years. I did buy the dwarf Solomon's Seal and that is happy under the trees and is spreading. Many many more that have passed through my garden. And there are more that are on my list to eventually get.

I wouldn't hesitate or feel one ounce of guilt to remove a plant, native or not that made my gardening efforts so difficult that I couldn't keep up with the garden. We can't all grow anything and everything. I think we have to be satisfied and happy with our successes and focus on that.

I have been planting natives for 20 years or more. Started with trees, especially keystone species like oaks. I now have 14 oaks on our half acre plus two Betula nigra (River Birch), a sassafras, a fringe tree, Acer saccharum, etc., etc. They are all host plants and support hundreds of caterpillars. I try to plant things that are host plants and don't worry so much about pollinator since those awill come. I agree about the Virginia Creeper. Ugh we have it coming up like crazy-ugh, ugh, ugh. Have some native volunteers that spread, but I like some of them, so I pull a lot but keep a few. Keeps me busy. ;-) Just planted quite a few native perennial plugs in the front yard in May. Fingers crossed they will thrive. Also, I still have some non-natives that I love which I will take out...when they die. Doug Tallamy is my go-to and he will settle for a 70% natives to 30% non-natives. I think I am about there. I am seeing so many more birds now-delightful.

I think that most of us who plant natives are happy to help anyone who asks for it, but I honestly don't think most or many of us are aggressive, short-sighted, or narrow-minded. I am happy to encourage anyone, but would never push my ideas on anyone. Yes, every garden is and gardener is individual and yes, so are the location, conditions, and climate. Luckily, there are native plants (and non-native) for each of those. Just choose your 'expert' carefully.

Most PNW natives are not well-suited to an urban or suburban garden of 'normal' size. They tend to be a bit wild and wooly or resent cultivation so you rarely see them. The exceptions are ceanothus, sword ferns, western rhododedron, Pacific wax myrtles and cammassia.

Natives from other areas of the country often struggle in our climate and growing conditions as well, so not very common either, although a few are very popular and common and do well.

So nothing native removed and a few added. But natives comprise only a very small portion of my preferred plant pallette anyway.

Cyn, I started gardening over 45 years ago I actually started out gardening as an organic gardener. Native plants were not even a topic then. Organics was barely a topic and was very uncommon at that time. I was very enthusiastic about organics and I still am. When natives came along, I was equally enthusiastic. They’re really under the same umbrella.

Unfortunately, my experiences locally with individuals and groups that promoted natives was a negative one. And that continued online. We’ve certainly seen enough of it here on GW over the years. When I said native proponents have promoted natives in a narrow way, I meant that those who have been aggressive have insisted on natives only and criticize people who grow non natives. And aggressive is what I have experienced. Sorry to say.

I am sorry you experienced that. I have been gardening for many decades, but only began focusing on natives about 20 years ago. I hope your locals have mellowed by now.

I have a lot of native woodies and perennials, but not all natives. I'm not critical of anyone who doesn't have 100% natives, but in all honesty I am at least somewhat critical of those who refuse to plant any (not counting trees). I don't mean they're not familiar with them, I mean they just refuse to acknowledge the value or look beyond a few aggressives -- they lump all natives into the "too aggressive" category or think all natives are rangey sprawly messes. Native enthusiasts who don't keep up with things and their gardens are a rangey sprawly mess don't help the cause...

I'm talking mostly about perennials and shrubs here -- most people here will plant native trees (oaks, maples, etc), not because they're native but because they're great trees and readily available.

Anyway, I don't feel so guilty after reading some of the replies. Maybe I can stick it out in the pasture and let it fend for itself. That actually might not be a bad idea, the shady part of teh pasture is back by the woods where a lot of garlic mustard grows -- those two can duke it out, maybe the wood poppy will emerge victorious. At least it's native :0)

Sounds like vines are what people are having the most problems with. I've got a few types of vines growing all over the vegetable garden fencing, IDK what they are but my project for DH this year is a clean-up of all that scrubby stuff in preparation for dismantling the fencing. He's got some shrubs and scrub trees to dig out, too.

Porkchop, I agree. I think starting with the trees as the backbone/structure in a garden is a good idea. Now, I am in the process (a loooong process) of planting 497 native to my town plugs in our front yard. Have four native shrubs to go in as well and most should be planted by the end of next week. The shrubs will go in this weekend. Our temps are unexpectedly in the 90s with high humidity now, so I last about 3 hours max, but there is weeding to do out there and in the back that I can do sitting on the ground-sometimes under the sprinkler. ;-) Feels more like July/August that May and June. :-(

I ditched some culver's root today. Sick and tired of how bad it looks post-bloom; actually the foliage looked really bad pre- and during bloom this year. Almost complete die-off of foliage, left a giant hole in my bed. It was one of the lilac cultivars, "Apollo" rings a bell but I don't remember.

I have a few clumps of white culver's root, I think it's the straight species. Those do fine. They don't bloom nearly as long nor as well as the one I removed, but the foliage looks great, even after blooming and even without a ton of supplemental water.

I never decided to keep Campsis radicans. It just won't leave, same as Honeyvine and Wooly Pipevine. When I was still smitten by Trumpetvine decades ago, I also aquired the Asian 2-toned flowered Campsis grandiflora from Wayside Gardens. It's flowers are 2 toned with pretty peach coloring.. There's now an invasive hybrid between radicans and grandiflora making it'a way around the southeast. My Campsis grandiflora still sends up a stem once or twice a year, but it's been beaten into eternal submission. Their will to survive is amazing!! Too bad that Bignonia family doesn't offer any trouble-free species. My Stylophorum diphyllum don't spread much from seed. They are in deep shade. I haven't reached my limit with them yet and still have room for a few more. The wood poppies grew short this year. If they are tall they begin to look raggy and bare legged in late summer. They are good for handling dry shade. As far as native plants that I tried and decided not to keep there's the groundcover Verbena bracteata. It only has 1 nice stage when it's flowers start to bloom. Later I find the long, prostrate spent flower spikes unattractive. It seemed miraculous how I came to have it though. I wanted to grow it, but couldn't find a source, and then I discovered it growing in a pothole in front of my house. I had to grow it, in case it was divine intervention. I mentioned to some native plant enthusiasts that imo Verbena bracteata isn't garden worthy and people were offended by it? But that's the way people are. I have to update that Im totally redoing the beds. Last year, I severely root pruned my Amsonia illustris. This year it was enormous again, so I dug the whole clump out and tossed it. I had an Aromatic Aster near the Amsonia with the same problem. That aster left a crater after I dug it out. Now there are 2 small Amsonia coming up in that area, so I'm going to give it 1 more chance. When the stalks emerge they have to unfold and are therefore alien looking at 1st glance. Another native thug that doesn't play well with others is the Northern River/Sea Oats, Chasmanthium latifolium. It's seedheads are absolutely beautiful, but it's a steamroller thug that rolls over everything in it's path. It's pushing back 5 foot tall clumps of the also agressive Wood Nettle, Laportea canadensis. Chasmanthium is seedy weedy too. In the past when I grew Wood Poppy in a sunnier spot I controlled it by pulling off the seedpods.

Prairiemoon, I'm interested in hearing a couple examples of your bad experiences with native plant people. I was one of those miitant native fascists and a real unthoughtful jerk. I'm in native plant groups on facebook and I see a lot of interesting exchanges, so I'd love to hear your take on it? There are the locally native people who believe we should grow what's locally native to our county rather than our state. Most newbee native people want certain species that aren't locally native, like Blue Baptisia, Anise Hyssop, and blue Salvia azurea. I feel totally free now to grow whatever I like, native or not, but I make it a point to have the same palette of native prairie and woodland plants as all the other native enthusiasts whom I know. I go way beyond the normal native plant palette and grow a lot of obscure, unusual species to boot yipee!!!

Hi Jay,

I found your post so interesting. I have often been an experimenter, and if I had more energy, I’d have probably done even more of that. I really need to do my best to keep my gardening as low maintenance as I can. Not that any gardening does not require a lot of maintenance, but, when you have an aggressive plant, from my experience, you end up with a lot more work that you can’t even get rid of if you want to. You’re locked in. So I am particularly careful of what I choose to plant. That’s why I find your posts so interesting, because you fearlessly grow anything and everything, lol. Trumpet Vine…wow. I’ve seen photos of a very very old vine in England in a big garden that the trunk reminded me of a Redwood tree. LoL And I read about how far a new stem could grow away from the main trunk. I would have loved a vine that produced those pretty flowers and attracted hummingbirds, but, I knew right away I couldn’t accommodate that type of vine. And you seem to have tried many plants like that. You must have a lot of energy!

To me many natives are aggressive. And why would they not be? They were originally meant to cover large areas with no gardener caring for them. They had to get through whatever climate threw at them. But in today’s world, those circumstances exist in very few places any more. Certainly not usually on an individual gardener’s property. Some people are lucky enough to have acres. Might have an untouched pristine area to simply continue to support. But I’d think that is a rarity. Most people either live in the city, or an apartment with a balcony or a small suburban lot. And those circumstances are a whole other ballgame.

But, it was eye opening decades ago when I first heard that the local landscape had been changed so much by imports. None of us are old enough or could be to have lived in a time when we were exposed to a full native landscape environment. And it was such an ‘idealist’ idea and goal, to attempt to restore the native landscape. I loved the idea. But…like most people….I also had attachments to so many non native plants that had been growing here all my life. So, I never adopted the view that I would have a goal of turning my property into a reproduction of what a native landscape where I live would have looked like originally.

Just take one example…roses. In my lifetime roses were part of the landscape. How many people do we all know that love roses. I never knew gardeners growing up and still only have met dedicated rose growers on GW. In real life over time, I’ve known gardeners who garden on a small scale who might have a few roses. I lived in homes where there were a few roses existing on the property when we moved in. I have less than a handful of neighbors who grow roses and then only a few, but none of them are native roses.

Roses are one of my favorite flowers. And I enjoy old roses and the new hybrids as well. There isn’t another plant in my garden that has given me more happiness and satisfaction. So, to conform to a view that I should grow only natives, would require me to limit the roses I grow to natives. There are only a very few native roses in my area and I know of at least one that is quite an aggressive grower. The difference between growing one of those native roses and the roses I’ve grown is tremendous. While a native rose I’m sure has its charms, it is not a modern rose. To remove roses from the gardener’s palette and require them to only grow less than a handful of native roses, is just not acceptable in my way of thinking. I can’t justify it. And I wouldn’t make that choice personally. And that’s just one example.

Still…I was very interested in choosing native plants and making the attempt to try to reproduce what might have grown here originally to some degree. But at that time native plants were not available in local nurseries. There was only one place to find them and it was the wildflower organization. I did go there and purchase many inexpensive, well grown native shrubs. It was great. But I wished they offered flats of some native perennials so I could establish them easier. And then another organization took over the Wildflower Society and I hoped things would change and they would try to make it easier and less expensive for people to make that change, but that didn’t happen. It was no easier and more expensive. And there still was a lot of confusion about how native did you have to be. To me, you should grow what grew in your exact location. Not what was native to Virginia or California. That isn’t restoring anything, it’s simply importing from a closer location. [g] But I couldn't even stick to that as a yardstick. And if I'm going to grow a rose, then why should I limit what I grew to just my state. So, there you are. I suspect I am like many gardeners in the way my thoughts and choices about natives have evolved.

Most of my negative experiences with native enthusiasts have happened online. I was not able to participate in any local organizations that would have furthered my interest in natives, so I don’t know what their approach was. I just felt locally they could have done a much better job of interesting gardeners and making it easier for them to do that.

But…I really had little patience for people in an online discussion who attempted to push the idea that everyone should only grow natives and anyone who didn’t should feel guilty. But…there’s only been maybe 3 times that I have run into that problem, so I don’t really know how prevalent that approach is in the natives community.

I couldn’t understand how someone came to these conclusions and developed expectations that every gardener should be doing this. Without even knowing the gardener that they were speaking to online. I think this approach and the really very nasty encounters with some, seem to have caused some gardeners to ignore natives, when they might have been very interested in adding natives here and there and then liking them enough to grow a few more and the native movement might have gained a lot more enthusiasts. And the reason I say that is because of the comments I’ve read on some of these threads with arguments about this. More people than I expected joined these threads to oppose what the native enthusiast was suggesting. I was surprised to read how many people had a similar negative encounter like I did. I often read people angrily posting that they’d grow what they wanted to grow, period.

But, really, I think cooler heads prevailed in the end, and enough native enthusiasts did not follow these negative examples and gradually, I’ve noticed I don’t see that happening online any more. And natives are becoming more and more available at local nurseries. So, I think that’s a good thing.

I enjoy having a chance to see natives growing in your garden, so keep on posting lots of photos. :-)

Hey Prairie, I have a couple native friends who have groups and are also moderators, and they are vehemently opposed to people giving their native plants the Chelsea Chop. They think it's sacrilage to alter their natural form. 😳😂 Ridiculous I say. They must think everyone has like 2 acres to garden on? If I never cut anything back, dozens of my plants would be suffocated. And chopping back native plants could be a nenecessity if your HOA has stringent rules? My native perennial morning glory Ipomoea pandurata belongs with the Trumpetvine, Honeyvine and Pipevine thug club. I think the Honeyvine takes the prize for the most agressive, since it has travelled 60 feet underneath a brick patio. Things would be worse if the Chinese Yam hadn't finally given up the ghost hehe. I prefer getting all my exercize gardening instead of going to a gym. Someone here once said you have to keep moving ir else you'll rot.

Wow....that's amazing, 60ft under a brick patio! That makes me gasp, just thinking about having that problem. How did you ever get rid of it?

So...let me get this straight, there are people in your local group, actually moderators who lead the group and give the official position on natives, who insist that no one should deadhead a native? Again, hard to understand what they are thinking that they could take that position. Have you shared your personal experiences with thug native plants? It seems to me to be a disconnect somehow, and I can't help wondering if you are correct, that many of these people are having a very different gardening experience than the majority of people.

My very casual and limited observation of the local groups here, are that they are people who have time on their hands and have large spaces that they garden in and they work on the properties of Botanical Gardens, etc., so they are really not understanding the circumstances that most gardeners are working with.

So, it would be fine to me, if they enjoyed their larger spaces and the time and opportunity to work on the properties like Botanical Gardens where they could put their ideas to the test if they didn't then take it a step further and without understanding other gardeners, attempt to make rules for everyone and tell everyone what they should do.

I'm glad you have been enthusiastic about natives and have had what seems like a lot of fun growing all these unknown native plants, but I'm glad that you are coping with the reality of aggressive plants in the way that is sustainable for you. I think that's not only reasonable and realistic but smart.

Yes, keep moving or you'll rot. Use it or lose it my Mom used to say. :-)

"Another native thug that doesn't play well with others is the Northern River/Sea Oats, Chasmanthium latifolium."

Oooh, I love Chasmanthium latifolium! I love the overall plant form and the fact it can grow in semi-shady locations and give some needed height under shade trees. And yes those dangling seedheads that look like minnows bouncing in the breeze! There's really nothing quite like it, not that I'm aware of anyway.

I have my clumps directly under a maple tree and in the general vicinity of another maple tree, which I think keeps them in check because of the intense root competition from the maples. I do find seedlings here and there, but they're easy to pull and because they're distinctive they're easy to spot what they area. At my other house I had a really large clump. That one, too, was under a giant maple; it turned into a gorgeous vase-shaped clump but stayed within bounds.

I tried the variegated variety quite some years ago. No vigor in that one, it petered out quickly.

Planting Joe-pye weed in a former garden was a mistake. It grew and flowered well, but it also reseeded in multiple places where it was unwanted, and once they got a foothold, the resulting plants were hard to dig out.

I am pulling Pycnanthemum virginianum like mad-it is taking over the entire side bed (30'x5'). Sigh. I hesitated to plant any sort of mint. Should have listened to myself.

I had that plant for a short time and pulled it but I'm still pulling out seedlings here and there. We just used mint in a pot for the summer and I'm hoping it's not creeping under the pot into the soil. It's a big 22" pot, so fingers crossed.

We've been enjoying mint this year, I have avoided it over time for the most part. But, yes, you hear something is in a family known to be aggressive and you hesitate and the next thing you know you've put it in your cart. Been there done that.

Prairiemoon, Exactly. I should have used a pot!

I just thought of another native I pull relentlessly! Sassafras. My goodness it drives me insane. I've been pulling it out of beds, cutting it down when I can't get the roots (which is often) and mowing it down in "lawn" areas for 30 years.

I had several large (20ft+) sassafras trees along the road, with MANY other smaller saplings, which the electric company cleared out two summers ago, along with some other trees. It's still popping up everywhere. I don't think I will ever be rid of it.

The only good thing about it, is I've noticed (especially on some of the 3-foot high ones that have escaped my clippers, eluded me, and suddenly I find them!) that they attract Japanese beetles. I don't have a big JB problem, so when I see them on the sassafras I am hoping (perhaps naively) that they are staying off the other blooms!

:)

Dee

Dee, I had a friend with a native grove of Sassafras in her yard. They are very pretty trees, aren't they? Great color in the fall, I thought. She used say how the root system would just spread and that's how they became a grove.

I still have some Northern River Oats. I watch them like a hawk. Carex magelanica has similar seedheads, but it's impossible to source.

Yes PM2, they do have nice color - lol that's actually one of the "only good things" I was going to mention but for some reason decided not to. I would love to have ONE sassafras tree. But apparently when you have one, you have thousands lol. And I don't think I'm exaggerating by much, honestly. They're everywhere!

:)

Dee

There's probably regional variance in "aggressiveness", but I wouldn't mind having a small grove of sassafrass trees for the fall color. We have two young, widely separated trees which have shown no signs of spread. I remember one venerable specimen standing alone in a field in central Ohio for many years, blazing with color every autumn.

That's crazy rusty_blackhaw! I honestly couldn't keep count of not only what's out there now, but how many I've pulled or cut back over the years. Last weekend I spent two hours pulling them out of an area that is probably 35' by 15', and covered in cardboard and woodchips. They didn't cover the WHOLE area completely, but they were dotted all over it, even coming up through the cardboard under the layer of woodchips. And of course ALL around the edges of this area. And beyond. I would say that I have been pulling/cutting shoots in an area that is about 30 feet in radius from where the mature trees were. Lol which includes my vegetable garden. Sigh...

:)

Dee

There are many that I pull regularly. Pokeweed, Greenbriar with it’s merciless thorns, enchanter’s night shade, Late Boneset, and Virginia Creeper all come to mind.

I'd love to grow Sassafrass too but I don't have room for more trees. I see many sassafrass suckers at a nearby sand prairie, where the park district is trying to eradicate it. I love the thorny Smilax tamnoides. The thorns prevent the deer from eating it into oblivion. I love Virginia Creeper. It makes an attractive groundcover. Once you remove all the sprawling vines you can see that they eminate from an easily removable, small clump of roots. Enchanter's Nightshade is another great native groundcover. It's also a great plant to use in establishing new shady beds. Our native Enchanter's Nightshade is a breeze to pull out, unlike the tenacious, rhzomatous European Emperor's Nightshade. I just harvested Circaea canadensis seeds and scattered them underneath an old, declining blue spruce where I'm establishing a new bed. Smilax and Parthenocissus would be welcome in that new bed .Late Boneset is a great pollinator plant. I don't need to grow it because it always shows up on its own. I pull the Late Boneset plants out after blooming. I let a couple Pokeweed plants grow every year in out of the way places, but I religiously pull any other Poke vollunteers out. My plan is to gradually replace the Virginia Creeper and Enchanter's Nightshade with spring ephemerals, Camassia Scillioides, Blue Cohosh, various native Viola species, etc. Diervilla would also be nice in the blue spruce bed. I have a few Coralberry in that bed currently, but Symphoricarpos orbiculatus has a tendency to become a thug over time. I also have Wild Ginger, Asarum canadense var recurvata.

My philosophy is always right plant, right place. I had the same experience with Joe Pye weed in a garden as rusty blackhaw and would never plant in a garden again. But I have a large stream floodplain and have lots of boneset and Joe Pye there and they are lovely. Pokeweed is menace in my cultivated areas, but I let it grow in other areas for the critters. I love Virginia creeper in the woods and wild areas, but when it starts encroaching on planted beds, it gets removed.

In Wisconsin, I live in a neighborhood of manicured lawns, so while I have lots of my favorite noninvasive nonnatives, at the back of my property I am adding natives to work well with the prairie planting on the drainage easement that is behind me. But I am trying to stick with plants that will behave well in a suburban setting.

NHBabs- your NH garden was very wild-ish. Do you chafe at maintaining the suburban landscape?

DEE- sorry i cant find the post where we talked about giving you geranium macrorizzum. I used to know how to communicate personally - email- with people who shared their emails (somehow) . is there still that feature? ill look for it…

I see ”email” at bottom but you have to be in my contacts. you might be….

but you are not.i need your personal email or phone to text …

Click on her name icon, then click activity, then Message - hopefully that helps you.

After being 'stung' by one of its glochids, I'm about to remove Opuntia cacanapa Ellisiana FROM MY LIFE. (it was always in a pot, not planted, because it's just barely hardy here) Yes, I feel bad, because it's the one wantonamara (sp?) in Texas was kind enough to mail to me years ago. But there's something really dangerous and annoying about a cactus that can look totally harmless, but isn't. The splinter feel fades after a couple days, but even one 'envenomation' is super annoying! I have one other cactus that is in the garden, and I've managed not to be 'bitten' by it in the 10 years it's been there since I created that dry garden. (it's the lovely claret cup - I forget the scientific name)

I've ripped out and threw away my Opuntia cespitosa 3 times because of the thorns. I can't live with it or without it.

I feel like you all must live in another world. One without deer! The deer pressure in my NY metro area makes native plants very difficult to protect. In unfenced areas there is no regeneration of oaks for example. Wooded landscapes are dominated by invasives. We gardeners still are committed to restoring native plants but it requires a whole lot of strategy, and many compromises.

Gee I live in a fairly rural suburb - old farms, protected open space, patches of woods - and I have lots of wildlife, including deer. There's a deer path straight through my yard. I hardly ever see any deer damage to my natives. The sassafras is never touched, I have oak saplings, maple saplings, and lots of other small trees that I'm constantly removing from garden areas (they may not all be natives but I think there are cottonwood and juniper trees in there). The virginia creeper is never touched, nor the poison ivy, and I don't know if they are native or not, but lol the weeds are NEVER touched. Seems the only thing deer and other critters go for is my planted garden plants - hostas, daylilies, phlox etc. Maybe there are enough "cultivated yards" so that the deer have developed a fussier palate!

:)

Dee