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Thermador Versus Kitchen Aid appliances

Georgie Walker
October 2, 2013
Any opinions out there about Thermador appliances versus Kitchen Aid? Or any thoughts about other companies. We are building a home and will have a higher end kitchen, but it is not quite high end enough to put out for viking or wolfe.

Comments (241)

  • theapplianceguys

    hkwan what benefit or feature does the Wolf or Miele have that you like? When I look at a range top I look at the btu output how high and how low does it go? Is there something about cleanabilty or is it purely how it looks? I think you will get better life of service from the Miele oven. Pot filler, do you make a lot of pasta? The other thing is will you be selling your home in 3-5 years if yes then I would put it in. It is a small luxury item to have. One thing you have to be careful with is looking at refrigerators on capacity alone. "Manufacturers tend to boast about the capacity of their refrigerators, with some models from our latest tests touted as having as much as a 27-cubic-foot capacity. The companies arrive at those figures by counting every nook and cranny, but as our tests have found over the years, the claims often don’t measure up."

    So the largest Refrigerator is a 27 cuft it is the KRFF507E SS, WH or BL

  • theapplianceguys

    The 8 Burner 48" rangetop by Miele puts out 142k btu's but to be fair the 36" 6 burner Miele is 83,500 Btu's but the 36" wolf is 77,200 Btu's the Jenn air or KitchenAid 36" Range top is 90,000 Btu's This also raises the question what hood are you using and how many CFM (cubic feet of air per minute) does it have? The Jenn Air goes down to 500 Btu's Simmering occurs around 1200 Btu's. I can't find the Wolf's lowest Btu's. Again my opinion here I would not have a char broiler unless I only grilled vegetables, meats pop and splatter and make a mess on the grill and even Jenn Air's Chrome Infused griddle doesn't clean up perfectly, so if you are a neat person or have OCD the griddle will get ugly. The neat thing about chrome infused is that it is easy to clean up! If you look at my live JA griddle the griddle surface does stay nice but the edges get cruddy and they are hard to clean as is the side. My advice get 6 or 8 burners and buy a griddle from William Sonoma . Click here to see how the JA griddle Cleans up.

  • hkwan

    Miele and Wolf have been my dream range top. Had KA for 26 years old and we are having addition for our kitchen. Would like to get the Grill instead of Griddle-not sure it is a wise option /not. We might get Broan Commercial Hood-the largest CFM. I will check out the KA to see if price makes sense or not. We are staying forever at our home after this addition. Thanks

  • theapplianceguys

    you don't need the largest CFM take the BTU's and divide by 100 that's the recommended CFM. Do you care about noise level or cleanabilty on the hood? This is the only pro style hood Broan makes and its over kill on CFM Click here for Broan Hood it retails 1200 to 1500 dollars. That hood also requires a ten inch duct. The quiet, easy to clean and five year warranty Vent-A-Hood is around $2200.00 Both hoods have a 30 inch max mounting height. Click to see the V-A-H . Another option I like is the Liner Insert where you put a cabinet over it, they start around $1300.00. Example 1 Example 2 Example 3 Hope that helps and gives you a few ideas.

  • John Racioppi

    I can't comment on Kitchen Aid, because I don't own any of their appliances. I do own a Thermador gas cooktop as well as a Bosch dishwasher and Bosch double ovens.

    Regarding the Thermador cooktop, I have owned it for 14 years and generally been pretty happy with it....until recently. About a month ago, the two front burners would not ignite automatically. I looked into the problem and found that the ignitor electrodes had cracked and needed to be replaced. No big deal (I thought) this is a $15 part which I can easily install. I contacted Thermador and found out that they have discontinued supplying this part. They have no stock and no alternative replacement part. I am now stuck with a $4,000 cooktop that I have to light with a match! I have contacted Thermador multiple times and they simply give me a run around. THE BOTTOM LINE.... if you are considering a professional cooktop or oven you would be nuts to buy Thermador.

  • wgb123
    Please help! I'm overwhelmed. Thermador has a great promotion but I'm hearing Thermador double ovens have problems and multiple recalls on the 'free dishwashers'
    Sounds like Thermador doesn't keep replacement parts for older models which would be an issue later.

    Any suggestions on the Bosch Benchcraft or 800 series double oven and Bosch silence plus dishwasher?
  • gardnerjill

    Applianceguys, I've read so many reviews from various sites that I am now totally confused and fearful that I made a terrible decision. Today I bit the bullet and replaced a 15 year old GE Profile built-in oven due to the costs of repairs. I purchased a Thermador single wall oven professional series POD301J. It won't be delivered for a week, so I think I can cancel the purchase based on your recommendation. Since this was an expensive purchase, as well as unexpected, should I look at a different brand???

  • Suzanne Sheldon

    I have a 4 burner, free standing Thermador. I'm not really sorry I bought it, because I probably couldn't afford anything much more expensive & I don't know that spending more would take care of the problem. My only complaint is that the oven has a cooling fan which is very loud. My husband & I are very sensitive to noise & had no idea what we were getting into. I've read that all powerful ovens have these fans now. Personally, I would run out & listen to every oven fan I could, to determine the difference. Otherwise, I love the looks & am learning to work with the much more powerful burners & the oven works fine. I don't usually use the convection for no particular reason. Good luck gardnerjill!

  • jmr1969

    Jill I would ask you a few questions before I answer yours. Question one did you purchase your oven from a dealer that does repairs? If they do that's great, if they don't then I might consider making a purchase from some one who services it. Also if they do there own service I would buy the service plan as long as its not outrageous say under $400.00 for 5 years. I would not be super quick to cancel the order but I also understand that you are concerned. Did the dealer offer installation? Its very very rare that one oven just fits with no modification to cabinets or electrical. Do they guarantee that the Oven will fit? Do you have it in writing? There is no such thing as plug and play wall meaning it will just fit in and your wiring is correct, let me rephrase that if it does plug and play go buy a lottery ticket. I find it entertaining that Thermador lists the wattage of there broil element but none of the other elements. Do most people need a rotisserie in there oven?

    I hope this helps.

  • Susan Oliver

    We are doing a complete kitchen reno and I am having a very difficult time between the Wolf 36" and the Thermador. Any thoughts between the PRD364GDHC-dual fuel with electric griddle versus the Wolf DF364G-dual fuel with electric griddle? I have read various complaints regarding both. I am just wondering if I go all gas and just buy a separate griddle and put it on for the 4 times a year I might use it.....? Cleaning is important to me as I'm a total virgo and will obsess if the unit looks dirty.


  • theapplianceguys

    Susan Griddle's can be awesome but I think you should get six burners and Find a nice All Clad griddle for the 4 times a year you use it. As to which range well that's a matter of few categories.

    1 Burner performance how high and how low do the burners go ? keep in mind 20k btu's is the highest and anything below 600 btu's is just fluff.

    2. Changeability Burners will be the main thing you want to look at here.

    3. Style this is what strikes your fancy any cool gadgets fall into this field as well.

    4. Don't buy a Wolf or Thermador Hood Look at Vent-A-Hood. Unless you can here the W or T hoods first.

    Its tough I like the looks of the Thermador but I don't like the Wolf 20K burner

    Look at the other appliances they might help you decide this do you like the W or T Refrigerator

    I hope this helps!

  • Suzanne Sheldon

    I have a Viking range hood & love it. I know someone who got a Wolf range a few years ago & absolutely hated it. When we had our Thermador installed, it fit perfect with zero adjustments to anything.

  • Susan Oliver

    Thanks so much theapplianceguys! We are going with the red knobs...I just have to have them....just like my shoes...I can't help it. We will check out the Vent a hood as an option. We may ugrade to the 48" wolf now of all things....so venting will be important! Thanks!

  • Molly Darrow

    Honestly, appliances are going to make me lose my mind. I hear bad things about almost every brand. We have 8 year old Kenmore Elite appliances and they've been good-great and not a single service call. Now that we are remodeling we were going to "upgrade" to a gas stove top or range top, hood insert, double ovens with a microwave above, dishwasher and a built in fridge. Appliance Guys, we need a summary. I'm not sure I can have the best appliance from every line. I want them to match. It seems like everyone is spending a lot of money to choose the lesser of evils. It feels backwards to be looking for the best warranty and extended coverage because we are bound to have problems. Anyone-- Which company or specific items are definite NOs? What line consistently has the best products? Which choices are worth not matching? Design some great packages for us all please.

  • Heather Macdonald
    I'm also looking for appliances for my new house. Here are consumers reports for this year. Stoves-
    Gas 30" - #1 and 2 - Samsung # NX58F5700WS,
    Samsung #NX58h9500WS. 4 Samsungs were rated in the top 6.
    Gas and duel fuel - #1 Kitchen Aid kdrs407vss duel fuel
    #2 Wolf df304 duel fuel.
    Let me know if you want the rating of other appliances
  • Suzanne Sheldon

    Samsung is made in Korea, I'm presently boycotting anything & everything from South Korea. Their track record on animal abuse is abysmal. (Extreme understatement) After reading about & watching video of their dog & cat for meat practices, Which make cruel factory farms & slaughterhouses look like petting zoos, I urge consumers to do a little research before purchasing.

  • Molly Darrow

    Thank you hmacgarden. I really appreciate your help. I have looked on consumer reports but find their reviews a bit misleading. Appliances that are top choices often have lower reliability reviews. Samsung gets incredible reviews and they look great but supposedly they are very hard to get serviced and the company is not customer friendly. Hmmmm . . . what to do?

  • hkwan

    I decide to purchase 48 inch WOLF's Range/Cook Top -Miele Double Oven and steamer oven. YALE is the store carries all this brands, I love the SAMSUNG CHeF 4 doors Fridge ( dnt like counter top) w/ extended warranty from YALE- and they will do the service. Trying not to change my mind again. BUt I wont never purchase Samsung Range- go with KA or Jenn Air

  • norma castelo

    What did you decided? I am in between Thermador and kitchen aid for all our appliances!!! Please give me your feedback, thanks

  • tutl

    My Thermador 48" range has given me a multitude of problems even after they changed out the unit for me. The column freezer has a faulty ice maker which doesn't stop so it overflows the ice drawer into the drawer below. Although the products look beautiful and the customer service has tried to be helpful I have two extremely expensive products that do not work as they should. My Thermador dishwasher, fridge, and steam oven work fine. Unfortunately you can find comments like this on every brand. Next time I will not buy Thermador but that doesn't mean I'd be any happier with something else. Pick best pricing and look to decide.

  • norma castelo

    Hello I heard you were a chef and just change for all Thermador in your new kitchen, how has it worked?

  • norma castelo

    Sylvia did the kitchen aid worked out?

  • S What!

    Georgie Walker rwucky1 33carol gabethan ehb1701 nmfb duval77 sylviasroses quienerez scooper25 amykhart bunkyborr 14169rango woofwoof hkwan msyjupiter 1fitnessnurse tcufrog Mary McDermott Geordon Francisco Garcia jeffhapp scgeyer wgb123 gardnerjill Susan O Suzanne Sheldon mmdareo hmacgarden norma castelo tutl To all of you who were or are remodeling/building...what did you decide and how would you rate the items purchased? To those who commented on appliances you have and use, do you still feel the same after several months/years since you first commented? Your feedback is appreciated! We are deciding this week on our wall oven/micro combo (no idea yet on brand!), range top (likely Wolf), downdraft (Wolf again), fridge columns (Thermador with panels), dishwasher (Miele with panels ---thank you to all who commented raving about your Meile DW!), Steam Oven (Miele because they are the only company who offers hard plumbing), ice maker (no idea brand yet). I'm also not sure if I'd rather go with a Double Oven and find another place for the microwave. Thank you for feedback!!! Its appreciated!

  • hkwan

    I decide to purchase the Range top Wolf- HOOD from BROAN( dont buy from WOLF for the hood), Miele for Double oven and the steamer oven ( I dnt want to hard plumbing since you need to clean those all the time). Miele has the best steamer oven. Anyone knows how hard to clean those burners on WOLF vs BS (Blue Star)? I just read another thread saying they really LOVE BS- I might need to check it out:


    alexrander Apr 11, 2015 11:59 PM

    I recommend the Bluestar. For one, the flame pattern is much better, and that means a more even cooking surface. You can raise the grates to smooth out the flame pattern even more. There is just no comparison to anything else.

    Also more heat is available if you need it. And food doesn't stick or burn on the thick cast iron bowls underneath the burner. This is a fairly common complaint about Wolf, that the spill overs burn on to the thin enameled surface and then gets scratched while trying to get it off.

    The Bluestar grates and bowls ARE heavy, but they come off each burner separately and there is nothing else to deal with. That is, each burner has it's own grate and it's own drip bowl that is also cast iron.

    Wolf has a grates that go over 2 burners so it's twice as heavy. And underneath the grate is not a removable bowl, but a thin sheet metal surface that doesn't remove easily. You clean it there, on the stove.

    You can clean the Bluestar on the stove as well, but you have the option to easily remove the individual drip bowl. And food will not fuse to it like the Wolf. Bluestar also has a second drip tray that's stainless steel and slides out from the front. That's because the top drip bowl has gaps so that spills don't sit on top, or in the case of the Wolf, flood the burner.

    Finally, besides the flame pattern of a star instead of a circle, the Blue star flames are 'open', that is, not covered with a circular cap.

    That means that the flames go straight up and not out sideways. And you don't have a dead spot in the middle. Also the higher you turn the Wolf 's gas up the more the flames shoot to the edge of the pan- causing poor heating to the pan bottom and more likely causing a burnt ring of food on your edge of the pan. So you're heating the sides of the pan or the room. Yes, you can turn it down, but that's not the point if you want high heat or even if you have a smaller pan.

    Both brands have a small circle burner for small pots. But a small pot heats more evenly on any of the Blustar burners- and you can raise the grate as well. And even on Bluestar's small burner, the flames go 'up' not 'sideways' as you turn the flames up. Looks are personal...

  • S What!

    hkwan Thank you so much! The Bluestar sounds awesome! My husband would like a $1500 GE Cooktop and I'm trying to get a $3800 Wolf Rangetop. I know he would not pay the $4300 Bluestar price tag, although it sounds like the best one! I'm getting my Thermador 30" fridge and 30" freezer. :) How do you like your Miele double ovens?

  • hkwan

    I have not bought but did a lot of research for the Miele double oven- full of gadget- if you dont need them- feel KA double oven would still make me happy. I stay with WOLF since each burner have their own flicker but Miele shares it so in the long run, it will be a run off-but Miele has very good reputation-I was advised to purchase this items at the store that has excellent and offer service.

  • norma castelo

    Amy did you finally upgrade to a 48" Thermador range top? How does it work? Is it a good option, because I realized the double ovens are a headache

  • norma castelo


    How do the Thermadors been working so far?

  • S What!

    theapplianceguys "Burner performance how high and how low do the burners go ? keep in mind 20k btu's is the highest and anything below 600 btu's is just fluff."

    The appliance salesman was saying that 500 BTUs would be used for "warming." Do you think the lower BTUs are not useful, or rather that the 600 vs. 500 won't make a difference when you're cooking?

    "Its tough I like the looks of the Thermador but I don't like the Wolf 20K burner"

    How come you don't like the Wolf 20K BTU burner?

    Im trying to decide on our range top. The salesman also says that the Thermador "clicks" when its turning off and on in the "simmer" mode? Is this something that people complain about?

    Also, I will have to get a downdraft with the cooktop in the island. There seems to be a spacing issue with the Thermador cook tops where the downdraft cannot be directly next to the cook top because of the venting underneath. Do you know anything about other downdraft brands?

    Thank you!

  • PRO
    Sophie Wheeler

    Downdraft do not work with high BTU gas appliances. They barely work with old coil top electric burners. You need an overhead vent. Or to move the cooktop to a better position.

  • PRO
    Stanfield Homes,llc

    I have a Jenn Air Dual Fuel range and side by side refrigerator, both running fine for 20 years now. At that time I put in a GE dishwasher to match the wall oven and microwave. The wall oven is fine and the microwave oven quit just a couple years ago. The GE dishwasher died at 5 years and was replaced with a Whirlpool that did not last 3years. As a builder we started to put GE and GE Monogram appliances in our custom and spec homes, having everything match, except for the dishwashers. We went with Bosch and have not turned back. Everyone loves them and they are the quietest for the money. We also started using Vent-A-Hoods over all our ranges and cook tops. They are awesome for under cabinet vents and they are very reasonable in priced. ($700) Their "fancy" hood covers are better priced than the upper end brands. Our high end homeowners of course go to the brands everyone mentions above. (Thermador, Wolf, and with Viking... getting the lowest score).

  • erineger

    Hi everyone! I've been enjoying reading all of your posts. We are doing a complete kitchen remodel Our kitchen is currently down to the studs. My husband and I have differing opinions regarding our cooktop or range which will be placed in our 10' island. We have been looking at the 36" bluster range, 36" thermador cooktop and also the Bosch cooktop and wall oven. Any advice/suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thx

  • spur63
    Recently, the compressor on my 5.5 year old KitchenAid refrigerator. $700-800 repair estimate, so of course Have to buy new one. Repairman said estimated life is 8-10 years, which to me seems short for such an expensive appliance.
  • PRO
    Sophie Wheeler

    8-10 years is average for any appliance. Expense doesn't come into it. You're paying for features and the name, not longevity.

    No cooking zones on an island, especially 36" in an 10' island. The island is too small for two safe zones for prep and cooking. It would be overly crowded. Then there is the issue of the 10K ventilation choice that a high BTU island cooking station will need. Real life ain't the cooking channel.

  • Suzanne Sheldon

    Personally, I would rather have a 10' island free of a cooktop, a sink would be a better choice. When you're cooking, you're focused on cooking. Washing dishes allows you to visit, watch tv or just look around & daydream. I have a 7 1/2' window (horizontal) over my sink with a view of the backyard, woods & mountains beyond. My stove is against the wall with easy outdoor ventilation. I have a Thermador 36" range, we like it except for the blasting oven fan. We hate that! Our friends have a Meile everything & I think they're pretty happy with them.

  • erineger
    Thank you all for your comments. Due to space issues - we have a galley type kitchen - we have decided to put the cooktop in the island. Honestly I don't really like the idea of having a sink there. The island is what separates our kitchen from the living room, making it a large great room. We only have 1 dedicated wall to put appliances in after removing the other walls to open the space up.

    I think we will end up with a thermador 36" cooktop and a single Bosch convection oven. We already have a oven/microwave combo that we are reusing which will be on the wall.

    Any advice on the thermador cooktop? It seems to have conflicting reviews.
  • mradkie
    Kitchenaid customer service is a nightmare! Had to replace a dishwasher after less than 2 years and it took me months of daily phone calls and emails to get them to stand behind the product. Not just difficult but they were rude and condescending . The part was under a five year warranty and I purchased extended warranty. They could not provide the part.....main control panel.....after less than 2 years! Also major repair on gas range after 1 year! Never deal with Whirlpool!
  • Suzanne Sheldon

    When we purchased out Thermador range, we also went for the discounted dishwasher which I think is actually made by Bosch. Unfortunately it sits in its box in our basement. The racks won't hold our plates & many other dishes. The appliance owner/manager treated me like I was an idiot until I brought in a collection of various dishes & then he had to agree that the designer must have never loaded a dishwasher. Luckily, our Kenmore Elite model is still in great shape & looks as good as the Thermador range & Fisher&Pakel built in fridge. Advice-take your dishes into dealer to see how they fit before purchasing.

  • erineger
    Suzanne, how do you like your Fischer paykel fridge? I'm also looking for a new fridge and have looked at the Fischer paykel but do not know enough about their reliability
  • Kivi
    I've had a Fisher Paykel fridge and double dishdrawer for about 7 years. No issues at all with either. No regrets about the brand. I would just say pick a brand that you can get serviced in your area...if needed.
  • Suzanne Sheldon

    We've only had it since December and so far we like it just fine. We wanted something that would last and was quiet. Doing research, it seems to have good reviews and does last. We purchased the one with French doors above and freezer below and the built-in model. It seemed the best built of all of the F/P models we saw (3). The only review complaint my husband found was that the ice maker had issues that were a real problem for some. We don't use much ice so we chose not to hook the fridge up to a water line. The doors aren't perfect, I have to kind of shove them shut rather than a gentle push towards closed. Still, we aren't sorry we bought this one. The built in model did end up being about $4,000 plus we had a builder fashion a cabinet around it. However, unlike the dealer & literature told us, it did not need to be bolted to the side walls. I love the lighting and shelves, but there isn't a ton of space like many American refrigerators. That's not a problem and our kids are grown. It's also very quiet which is VERY important. Our friends have had theirs for ten years and are also very happy with it. They have the single door above & possibly a freezer door below. There aren't a lot of bells and whistles so not as much to go wrong, we're hoping. Another thing, after having it awhile, I think that a very large person might feel the opening wasn't adequate. The right side can't quite open the full range, but then I checked out a couple of other models the last time I was at Home Depot and they seemed about the same. One last thing, the installers did a lousey job. They had to come back. This time my husband stayed home and helped, making sure they did it properly. I don't think it had anything to do with the brand, but they left parts in the truck, etc. It doesn't pay to just trust the job will be done right. Good luck!

  • erineger
    Thank you! My husband and I looked at the built in fridge with freezer at the bottom. We may take another look at them! I really like their simple yet elegant design.
  • db531

    I stumbled across this thread researching appliances. In my current home I have a 48" Thermador rangetop with six burners and a grill, 30" Thermador double ovens (with convection/convection roast), 48" Thermador pro hood, Thermador dishwasher (Bosch knock off) and a 42" side-by-side Sub-Zero. I had these all installed in 1999 and I am still using them. I have replaced two control boards in the ovens and recently repaired the dishwasher. It needed a plastic part for the control panel that had a tang break off. It was a $35 dollar fix and I did it myself. I did have the SubZero fixed a few years ago right after the warranty expired with a known problem with the evaporator. In general, I have had no other issues with theses appliances. I would not get the grill on the rangetop again. It is a complete mess to clean up. I use my outdoor grill instead. I should add that I cook on a daily basis. I am in the process of building a townhome and down sizing (kids grown, on my own). I can get whatever appliances I so choose as long as it fits a 30" space for the range. I cannot go with wall ovens as there is no room. I can get a hood as I have an end unit. My builder is big on Kitchen Aid. I am tempted to go with Thermador given my past experience. I would likely get a dual fuel range. Given the current packages from Thermador (free hood and dishwasher with a range a refrigerator) it seems to be a good deal. Any opinions on this will be greatly appreciated.

  • tutl

    I have noted things above, but my Thermador products purchased in 2013 do not work in the manner I would expect for such pricey items. The range has a constant problem whereby I have to go to my fuse box, shut off the fuse, then turn it back on to to clear the system. It's very inconvenient, but since I've changed the range out once already, and the problem persists, I live with it. I think the computer component is faulty in all of them. The freezer has no way to stop the ice maker and I have constant overflow. The Thermador repair man has tried to fix all of this but without successful results. Would any other brand be better, I have no idea.

  • Suzanne Sheldon

    db531, as I mentioned above, if you're considering a Thermador (Bosch) dishwasher, check the racks thoroughly. It won't even hold my dishes. I'm waiting for them to redesign the racks & hopefully, I can exchange them, even if I have to pay.

  • Jen Berkowitz

    I was doing appliance research as well and stumbled on this. Our kitchen (and almost the whole house) is down to the studs and I need to place my appliance order. I've priced out W/SZ and Therm. You just can't beat the deal of the Thermador. Though, I'm getting increasingly nervous after the reviews on this site! We do cook often and love the look of these appliances. I'm also not seeing glowing reviews about their service when things go wrong. Ugh...

  • db531

    It does seem that if you get Thermador appliances without problems, all is well. On the other hand, if you have issues, well, good luck. My own ethic has always been value for money and I always appreciate good quality. The Thermador vs Wolf-SubZero question is a conundrum. I just want to cook and not have things fall apart.

  • Suzanne Sheldon

    Our friends has Wolf and were very unhappy, issues and service was poor. They built a new house and purchased all Meile appliances and seem to be quite happy with them. The only Meile appliance I have is my vacuum cleaner and I do love it.

  • britneyk

    Anyone have either a Thermador T36BB810SS or Kitchenaid KBBR206ESS refrigerator? I am considering both but they are so expensive that I want to make sure they are good and will last trouble free. Thank you.

  • PRO
    Haute Shoppe Studio
    I had the highest end thermador double oven for 15 years. It was temperamental and repair company was always difficult to find. Just replaced it with a Kitchen Aid double oven. I shed some tears at the thought of having to step down BUT let me tell you it is a much better oven. MUCH quieter and truer to temp. Thermador would shut down after broil and not work for a couple days. I even lost power on it for Christmas. That was the last straw. I tried to repair but the cost was half of a new kitchen aid. If I could afford the best I might try Wolf. But I’d never buy Thermador again. I have a Wolfe electric stove top. Works fine but beeps constantly. Kitchen aid dishwasher. Much sturdier than the Bosch in the same price range of 1k

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