appliances

Reply to: For whatever is worth, I called Monogram customer service and was told that the shape of the heating elements is circular and close together so they count on heat spreading through the cooking pan. I am sure this would be OK if low to medium heat is all that's required but may not be so good for other situations. As a comparison, the shape of Miele's heating elements is ovals adjacent to each other so by synchronizing them the effect is that a larger, almost rectangular cooking shape is achieved (i.e. a true bridge). A much bigger concern to me was actually about installation: the Monogram cooktop can be installed flush using the JXFLUSH1 kit, This is a design feature I actually want. The identical Cafe unit cannot, and they told me both by phone and on web chat that doing so would void the warranty on the Cafe unit. There was no justification other than "it is not allowed". I personally found that marketing gimmick really a turn off because the units are exactly the same except for the color scheme (they even confirmed that over the phone). If I have to pay an extra $1000 just to get flush installation and keep my warranty for an identically spec'd unit, I would rather go somewhere else (like Miele, same price as Monogram) where they won't play those kinds of games. Sorry for the ranting but it just happened and I'm obviously very frustrated by that.

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Reply to: Seems to me you have two options. Keep renewing the warranty or replace the unit. Both of which you already realize. I see nothing but negative reviews on these models especially the Cafe series. I also recommend you stay away from any model made by Samsung. I personally have a Frigidare Professional series cook top that has performed admirably with no issues. I actually wanted a Thermadore Freedom, however it has a host of negative reviews as well. I have a Whirlpool induction range in a rental property that I have had 0 issues out of. The model # escapes me at the moment, but if you like the next time I am over there I will get it for you,

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Reply to: You know how that goes, once we repair something, we often say, "why, that was easy". I'm an electronic technicia, who likes taking stuff apart, although, I do refrain from doing so if it's working OK. My pictures should help to see how I narrowed down the problem. The first step in troubleshooting is to read the fault codes shown in the service manual fault table. I discovered that the error code, which I talk about in my previous posts, pointed me to the cooktop RR induction coil had a problem. When I removed & inspected the Induction coil wiring terminals, I noticed a loose spade terminal of the red wires connecting it to the generator board. Anytime you have a high current device, that has a loosely secured wire lug at it's power source (generator board), the loose connection will build up carbon, and struggle to obtain the current & voltage its being commanded to heat to. I found that if you follow the troubleshooting advice in the service manual, and power down the oven for 3-5 minutes, and use the 3-butron key combination to enter the service state, you can reset the ROM error codes. By clearing the error codes, the GE oven will allow you to proceed as if there's nothing wrong. However, as soon as you command the defective see too do heat up, then the onboard computer will register that fault again, then auto-shut off all fun tion commands that follow. I could've kept my wife's GE oven usable, as long as I had first cleared the faults stored in ROM (read-only-memory), and not attempted to issue a command to the cooktop RR heating coil. It only costs me $240, for I was able to strip-back the coil wire and crimp/solder a new spade-lug onto the red wire, and at the same time, replaced the GE Generator Board. GE Parts Supply were too slow to ship me my parts, which are due to arrive this Saturday. I plan to refuse the shipment of these 2 parts: generator board & RR induction coil. If someone is wanting to buy them from me, and not have to order them from a slow GE warehouse, then let me know by emailing me @ barrypickens@yahoo.com, or send me a private Facebook message. Just look me up on Facebook, Texas, with that email address. I will edit my this post by Saturday.

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Reply to: My PHS920SF2SS range now appears to be fixed. As I stated earlier, replacing just the board with the blown capacitor did not solve the problem, and I have no idea how the GE service tech was able to ascertain that all of the parts he replaced were bad (my guess - "overkill"). I still have the suspicion that there might have been a design flaw -- two of the parts replaced were "issued under a new part number". I'm left to guess that the only reason you would issue a replacement part for a 18 month old range is a design flaw, but that is just conjecture. In any case, I'm glad that GE waived the service call fee - made the total cost $342. Here's another puzzler: The replacement parts - WB27X27186, WB27X21393, WB27X20891 - would have cost me $1,056 from GE parts online. The tech paid $243 for the parts. That is almost a 80% discount! Again, I have to wonder if GE is quietly discounting some defective parts to get them swapped out with more reliable ones. (Recall that GE told me that there are no recalls or service bulletins...). I would highly recommend that you call GE Customer Relations at 800-386-1215 (I believe it is option 4) and ask the same. They volunteered the $99 service call discount - I did not ask for one. If anyone is still interested in the photos for tearing into the range, let me know and I'll post.

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Reply to: I too have a PHS920SF2SS. 1.5 years old, heard the "pop" a couple days ago and the unit is now a large boat anchor. Following goofyjumper's lead, I took the control unit apart and found the blown capacitor. (I took pictures during the disassembly and will post if anyone finds them useful). Noticed something interesting when searching for the replacement part - BOARD GENERATOR ASM WB27X21420. GE web site says, "No Longer Available. Item has been replaced by WB27X27183. This surely means that there was a design flaw with the original (it's a printed circuit board assembly). I'm going to call my dealer this week and press for some information about this. Am hoping that GE will do the right thing and offer to replace the faulty boards for no charge. I would encourage anyone who is contemplating a fix to do the same. I might also try to contact GE (ha!). In any case, I'll post responses here. Thanks to all of you for posting your experiences, too!

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Reply to: >>> "Does anybody have insight on what the best(reliable) induction ranges are these days?"<<< Unfortunately, there does not seem to be anything known to be more reliable than the GE models. (Maybe I should say anything known to be less unreliable?) This problem got me musing (yet again), about the conundrums of choosing a range for the long haul. They lead me to increasing pessimism generally about longevity of appliances in general and specific pessimism about finding other brands of current induction ranges with better reliability than than the GEs which are the subject of this thread. Doesn't my introduction sound nicer than saying I'm about to launch off on a rant about what seems to be an overall decline in the reliability of all appliances that rely on electronics? :>) Still, the proliferation of electronics is a problem and not just for induction stoves. Given that induction stoves have more electronics than most, it seems they are more vulnerable, but we really do not have any accesible information that shows they are worse than other kinds of ranges. That said, we know it is possible to build durable and reliable electronics that will survive a lot of stress. The military gets them (albeit with maintenance and replacement contracts) and we certainly have had automotive engine compartment electronics that last decades. It is received wisdom that consumer electronics seem designed to have short lives. Mostly not seen as a big problem with computers and smart phones because of the pace of improvement. For my video editing workstation, for example, the computer, monitors and software that I bought five years ago were (and still are) great for the HD video cameras I used. But, now, we're moving into shooting UHD video with four times the resolution and and four (and more) times the data rates. I now need a new system for the dramatically improved capabilties of the new cameras. So, if my old system were starting to fail, no big deal since I'm already going for new equipment, anyway. Not so when it comes to my kitchen. While some of the current crop of induction cooktops and ranges might seem a little better (in some ways) than the induction cooktop I bought five years ago, the differences seem to be minor conveniences --- at best. I have no reason to want to replace my stove or cooktop. I'm planning/hoping on my current induction cooktop lasting me ten or more years. Is that a good hope? Hard to say. I fear not. For guesses about probable durability/reliability rates, we used to be able to get some helpful information from the annual membership surveys conducted by Consumer Reports. CR still conducts annual membership surveys, but it lumps all kinds of electric ranges together. There is no break-out for induction ranges. Also, the CR survey now asks for breakages in the first three years of ownership. It used to be five years. (Not encouraging, eh?) In the fine print on the survey page for electric ranges, CR says that their survey results only include "ranges not covered by a service contract." Presumably, then, they are excluding range covered by extended warranties. One wonders why? Does not that exclusion seriously skew the defect rates that we are interested in? CR's surveys formerly showed the GE defect rate for electric stoves for a long time running at around a 5% breakage over five years (which presumably included ranges serviced under extended warranties). The current, redesigned survey is now showing 9% breakage rate in the first three years of ownership and excludes ranges serviced under the extended warranties. CR says that it has changed its survey methodology so the rates are no longer comparable. That certainly seems discouraging about the data's usefulness to us, eh? The current worst rate, according to CR's latest survey, is for LG electric ranges with a 15% breakage rate over three years followed by Samsung electric ranges showing a breakage rate of 14%. Leaving aside the question of whether folks who buy GE ranges are more likely to buy extended warranties than the folks who buy LG and Samsung electric ranges, all the other reported (major) brands are running between 11% and 13% rates overall for their electric stoves. The fine print on the CR survey data page says that differences of 5% and less are "not meaningful." The message seems to be that you will do better choosing a GE electric range over an LG electric range, but it is pretty much a crapshoot in choosing between GE and most other brands of electric ranges. The CR survey apparently did not get enough responses for any meaningful statistics on brands like Dacor, Wolf and Miele, but there is little reason to believe that those brands' electronics are significantly more durable than for major brand induction ranges. Miele reputably builds appliances for twenty-year life-spans, However, it only provides a 5 year extended warranty. (In Canada, you can extend that out to ten years.) What speaks well for Miele in that regard is that the warranty even covers electrical system damage such as surges and lightening strikes. Seems like considerable faith in the durability of their electronic systems, eh? So, one wonders why US buyers can't get the ten-year warranty offered to Canadian buyers? Well, for one thing, Canadian buyers pay a lot more for their Miele induction ranges. Base price (sans extended warranty) in the US is $7k. Base price in Canada (sans warranty) translates to around $8400US. Hmmm, maybe not so encouraging, after all?. Anyway, the Miele may not be significantly more reliable. Miele designs its appliances to be repairable. It sells the appliances at such high prices that it can seem reasonable to make repairs that would seem uneconomic on less expensive brands. Consider what you are likely to do if your 5½ year old induction stove's controller boards were to fail. (This seems to be the common problem identified in this now two-year-old thread.) Consider a Miele which you would have purchased for $7500US (with the 5 year extended warranty) as opposed to, say, a Frigidaire FGIS3065 slide-in induction range for which you could have paid around $1400 or a freestanding GE PHB920 for which you would have paid around $1700. (I"m leaving out the cost of the extended warranties for those, but guessing that the cost might be around $200.) Granted that Miele parts are going to be much more expensive, you would likely repair that $7500 Miele even if the new boards cost $2000. But, if you were looking at, say, $1200 to $1400 to replace the control boards in your $1700 GE or $1400 Frigidaire, you might well decide to dump the broken 5½ year old range and buy a replacement range. This situation can make Miele stoves seem more long-lived than GE or Frigidaire stoves without the Miele range actually being a more reliable stove. Early failures are not automatic for everybody, of course. Some ranges will fail in a few years and some will go on for a long time. My cousins have a thirty-something year-old Kenmore induction range (which my aunt bought in the 1980s). It is still chugging along as is the one purchased by a long-time gardenweb poster (whose name is escaping my aging memory at the moment.) For every story like that, however, there are plenty of others whose old Kenmores did not last. We have no way of knowing whose stove will last long and whose will not. Worse, we have no way of knowing the actual odds of longevity. If 10% fail in three years, that would mean 9 out of 10 would last longer. But how much longer? Do half of them fail by six years, nine years, twelve years? We presently have no way of knowing? You can sometimes gather some small sample from posts on, say, the Yale Appliance blogs. (Again, though, that is in pretty broad categories, such as how many service calls they get for a brand's stoves or washing machines or fridges. No real breakout by models or types.) It used to be that appliances were expected to last longer and the expected costs of long service were built into the prices charged for them. It seems that manufacturers are now going for a la carte pricing. One could say, in economic terms, that they have shifted the costs of warranties and product longevity into insurance that they make you purchase separately at your option. That makes for uncertainty about how serious they are in building durable goods that are, in fact, durable. This uncertainty led long time poster Kaseki, after his induction cooktop died at seven years, to suggest looking at induction appliances as lease transactions rather than purchases. Take the cost of the appliance (and extended 5 year warranty). Divide it by five years to compute a cost per year. Consider if you would be willing to lease a stove for that yearly amount. Say, you can get a GE PHB920 range and extended 5 year warranty for $1900. Would you be willing to lease an induction range for $380 a year? If it lasts for 7 years, your rental cost has gone down to $271/year. Would that be acceptable? If it lasts ten years, the annual rental would be $190/year. Would you be willing to pay that for a good stove? 3katz4me added a corollary suggestion to buy one of the less expensive models of induction ranges so that rental costs seems less financially onerous. (Kind of like leasing a Subaru instead of Mercedes, maybe?) All of the foregoing is not confined to induction stoves. Control boards are proliferating throughout most models of most major brand stoves these days. Same thing with fridges, too. This is all a very long way to saying that extended warranties are probably necessary and also an explanation for pessimism about finding any brand of induction stove that will actually have meaningful durability and reliablity greater than the GE products.

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Reply to: Do you know if GE is giving you the new PHB920SJFF or the discontinued PHB920SFSS? It looks like the new model has even more electronics on it than our broken one. I've only seen one review so far that says the app that syncs the stove to the iPhone doesn't work right. I don't plan on ever needing to use that, but hope everything else works. On the other hand, it has a completely smooth glass top so food won't be caught in the rim around it and two of the top burners can be bridged for a griddle (although I doubt I would use that either.) I don't know whether to push for a replacement range of the model I have or the SJFF that is replacing it. What are your thoughts?

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Reply to: " I used to hear about problems with ground loops when two ground connections are made to different parts of the earth. Should I be concerned about this possibility when the neutral contacts the dirt someplace different than the water pipe?" In sensitive electronics circuits where measurement accuracy is important (think also phonograph signals), grounding approaches can be successful or unsuccessful depending on how they are configured. However, in many of these cases, the ground is carrying the signal return. For entertainment electronics, grounding errors lead to hum in the sound or distortion effects in the video. In residential electrical power configurations, the neutral returns the 120 Vac power, and (if compliant) connects to ground only at the service entry. No power should be carried by the grounding system. The grounding system is to provide a means of safe current transmission if a ground fault inadvertently occurs. Unfortunately for any electronics that might want a nice quiet ground, the allowable approaches to configuring the grounding system are really not ideal and depend on hardware connections that are ok for safety but not ok for weak signals. Hospital systems often have more elaborate grounding systems to avoid this problem. Ideally, your induction range should use a three- or four-wire connection that includes a separate grounding conductor that returns to the grounding bar at the breaker panel, and this ground point should go to the external grounding system (often city water supply pipe and external ground rod). (The four wire connection only applies if some 120 Vac circuits are used; some induction cooktops only use three wires -- the two 240 Vac conductors and a grounding wire. At a minimum this grounding wire is connected to metal chassis parts for safety and not necessarily to the internal "ground" of the electronics, which may be established separately -- that is, float -- by the power supply configuration.) Older three-wire (two power conductors and neutral) are still allowed for range hook-ups, but the preferred approach is to keep neutral and ground separated. It is still wise to ensure that good connections are maintained from appliance through the circuit path to the breaker panel. W.r.t. the temperature sensor, which I expect to be a thermistor, I can imagine ways that it could be intermittent. The cost in time to dig into an induction cooktop is so much greater than the cost of the sensor, in my opinion once inside the tech should have replaced the sensor if this is a factor in the fault code. However, good design would suggest that that fault should only apply to the hob that has the thermistor failure, not the entire cooktop. kas

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Reply to: Costco won't have the range on display or any knowledgeable sales people but other than that they are the best. In fact there is really no reason to go to the store. Just order online. Don't forget to use the Costco card and you have a free 4 year GE warranty. Costco has free delivery and removal of old range. Also free basic install with new range cord. All small things but they do add up when others charge for them. Costco also has a 90 day return policy. If you should end up with a lemon this is nice to have even if you just use it for leverage. Had mine for 5 months now and everything is still A-OK.

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Reply to: So in the coming month or so my wife and I will be pulling the trigger on the CHS995SELSS. First, any more impressions on this range? Still happy with it? Second, we are considering Costco because it will be nice to have a Costco membership, the cost is cheaper than the other places by $200, and it comes with a 2 year GE Warranty. My wife and I will most likely be buying an extended warranty as well. The only other place we may buy this range from is from a family owned high end appliance store down the street. They can only do a 1 year GE warranty and then we will need to look in to their extended warranties. Their servicemen do not get good reviews though on Yelp - enough to make me hesitant to even consider them. I have had zero interactions in my life with Costco. Those that have, specifically in regards to home appliances, can you tell me your impressions of them? Basically the same as dealing with a Lowe's or Home Depot? I've had positive experiences with Lowe's, but haven't had anything repaired, just bought, delivered, and installed. Thanks so much!

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Reply to: It sounds like they sent you JXFILLR1SS (GE Slide in Range SS filler kit). You need the part number I referenced above which they are showing as out of stock. If they don't ask for the filler kit back keep it. You will need it. A standard counter top is 36" high. The lowest you can get this range top down to is 36-3/8". Even if you don't have a void between the range and counter you still need this filler kit to make the height transition look nice.

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Reply to: kenstl, This may or may not make sense to you or be of any actual value but here is what I did. My range is registered on the GE site so I logged in and went to the parts list. In the parts blow up that back piece is listed as part number WB07X28824. I then googled that part number and found some sites that listed all the models it fits. One model being a JGS760SEL1SS. I then did some searching and found out that this model also comes in white under JGS760DEL1WW. I then went to a parts blow up for it and the back piece is listed as WB07X28822. I bet your range came with a WB07X28822 which is white and should have come with a WB07X28824 which is stainless. Both of these part numbers show as out of stock. I bet if the factory runs out of one they just use whatever is close enough.

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Reply to: kenstil, I didn't get any white rear trim piece but did see the installers put a stainless steel trim piece on the back that attaches with screws to predrilled holes in the range. The piece has vent slots on the top which vents a enclosed space behind the range. In my case this piece will back up against the wall behind it. Right now it's unfinished but as soon as I get around to it I will cut a piece of corian to match my countertop backsplash. Not to be confused with the vent slots that are actually part of the range that sit above and in front of this piece. The extra piece is not even seen being it sits behind and below. From page 3 of the installation guide.

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Reply to: "Currently 10% off on Lowe's. Wife is still saying not yet. Worried i won't find a better deal in the next few months..." You may want to consider joining Costco. I think their cheapest membership is $60. 10% off at Lowes is 3599. You get 1 year warranty and truck delivery. Costco is at 3399. ($68 less if you use Costco card). Costco has delivery window at only 4 days out. Costco includes free delivery, new cord, installation and removal of old range. Costco provides 2 year manufacture warranty (4 year if you use Costco card). Costco also has 90 day return policy.

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Reply to: So far, Haier has not messed much with operations of its acquisitions. GE support is likely to be the same for near term. (There have been differing opinions here on whether that is a good or bad thing.) Of course, there is no way of telling how long that may continue into the future. Chris, for better or worse, you are not going to find many reviews of the Cafe induction range yet because, according to an appliance salesperson I know, GE is just starting to deliver the Cafe dual-oven induction range to customers. You might infer some things about performance and reliability from other GE ranges which use the same components. The stove-top induction burner layout is pretty much the same one that GE has been using with its cooktops and its slide-in induction ranges for the last several years. The knob controls are just a rotary digital interface. The in-pot probe control system (for the largest burner) was developed by GE's tech spin-off, Paragon, and has been on offer for a year or so with Cafe induction cooktops so there might be some buyer reports there. (Paragon also markets a stand-alone version with a portable induction cooker.) The double oven is the same set-up that GE has been offering for at least a couple of years in its dual-oven radiant-electric and dual-fuel Cafe and Profile lines of ranges. Those would be worth researching to see how much you might or might not like the GE's double oven set-up. As with any choice of ranges, the Bosch Benchmark and the GE Cafe reflect differing design and engineering trade-offs beyond the immediately obvious ones like the knob versus touchpad interface, one not-so-large oven (Bosch) versus GE's two smaller ovens, Bosch's burner timers versus GE's probe control of the largest burner, and Bosch's flex-zone versus GE's linking of controls on two separate burners. The Bosch induction ranges seem to have generated fewer complaints about failing electronics than those on the GE induction slide-ins ---- you have seen the the long-running thread here on the GE slide-in induction range problems? --- but that might be a reflection of GE selling a lot more induction ranges in the North American market. You might look at the respective installation guides --- Bosch has somewhat unique requirements for placement of the electrical hook-up and that might or might not be a consideration for you. Will your installation leave an exposed side of the stove? The GE comes with finished side-panels but Bosch does not (nor does the company offer any as an accessory, either).

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Reply to: Among six tested induction ranges, two slide-in, Consumer Reports rated the GE Profile PHS930SLSS the highest. There are 276 consumer reviews on Home Depot which should give you a pretty good idea of how it preforms. (At $2350 it's also $750 less than a Bosch induction range sold by HD.)

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Reply to: Let me try to take a shot at responding to what seem to be topics. Cast Iron: the advice on gradually heating cast iron applies when you are heating an empty pan (as you would for, say, searing a steak) rather than bringing something to boil. For boiling, you've got a medium (water or other liquid) which can spread the heat and there is much less stress on the pan than when preheating an empty pan. Also, boiling mostly doesn't need evenly heated pan bases. You can put a dutch oven or deep fry pan full of water on the big GE burner and use the full 3700 watts to bring it to boil if you want. For preheating empty pans for sears and sautes, the advice is different for several reasons. Start with the nature of cast iron cookware. Basically, cast iron does a great job at holding onto heat but is slow at absorbing it and not great at spreading (conducting) it so it takes quite a while to evenly preheat it. Then consider that the induction field (what generates heat in the pan) is a toroidal shape (aka donut shaped). You can see actually see this when you put a cast iron pan onto boil water --- you will see a calm center "bulls eye" area surrounded by a ring of bubbles and then another calmer ring beyond that. The area of the bubble will be the hottest area of the pan. (FWIW, something similar happens with regular capped sealed gas burners, too.) When put an empty cast iron pan on an induction burner cranked to max, you quickly get a ring of screaming hot surface and an area inside and outside of it that are much less hot and take a lot longer to get hotter. It takes a relatively long time for cast iron to spread the heat evenly for searing and sauteing. If you crank the heat as high as possible and then try to dial it back -- something a lot of people do on other stoves --- you can wind up with parts of your empty cast iron pan being way too hot while the rest of the pan is much less hot. You get a quicker and better result by heating that empty iron pan by gradually ramping up the heat. Also, if you are using vintage cast iron, you want to ramp up the empty pan's heat more gradually for another reason. Induction can heat part of the pan (again empty) so much quicker than other because overheating just parts of the pan can produce stresses that crack the old cast iron. Another aspect that sometimes is not understood by folks new to induction. You spent time seasoning your cast iron pan (or maybe you have carbon steel pans that needed seasoning, too,) When you crank an empty pan with max heat, some parts of the pan will get hotter than 600° and completely burn off the seasoning. Consider also that lead melts at something like 621°F, IIRC. Better to ramp up a little more gradually What does heating gradually mean for cast iron? Five minutes on low, then five on medium, then higher may work okay, but you'll want to experiment a bit with your pans and your stove to get the timing more exact. Note that I said "higher" rather than "high." Again, you don't want to crank that big burner to max power because parts of you pan will then shoot up into lead melting temps, burning off seasoning, and leaving you waith an unevenly heated fry pan. FWIW, something like your 5-5-5 approach has worked work pretty well with my enameled cast iron dutch oven but my big old Lodge fry pan takes a more gradual ramp up if I want an evenly heated surface for searing. Actually, for even searing temps, I've had much better luck following the recommendations from Serious Eats and Cooks illustrated which is to put the big iron fry pan in the oven, crank the oven temp to 500°F, and leave the fry pan in for 30 minutes. Then move the pan to a stovetop hob set to medium to medium high. That gets an excellent sear. Using Max Heat For Boiling Versus More Gradual Heat For Saute/searing with Stainless "Clad pans: Again, no problem using max hob heat for bringing water to boil or lots of oil to temp for deep frying in most any kind of pan. Similar story to cast iron for preheating empty clad pans except the "overshoot" is less severe because clad pans will drop heat more quickly than the cast iron skillets. Demeyere pans (at least the ones I have) are pretty heavy which makes them a bit of a special case.. Their mass holds heat nearly as well as cast iron but they grab it more quickly and spread the heat a lot more evenly. Blasting a pan on induction with 3700 watts will get it screaming hot very quickly, and maybe way beyond what you want -- again are you looking for quickly getting to lead melting temperatures or something more reasonable for sauteing etc.?. The mass of the Demeyere pans results in them staying at way too high a heat level for longer. They will get to and hold desired heat levels more quickly and more evenly if you don't crank the burner as high as possible and then try to let it cool back down to usable levels. With less massive clad pans (e.g., All Clad, Cuisinart Multiclad, etc.) cranking the pan too quickly to extreme heat can cause warping or loss of tight bonding between the layers of cladding. Again, why scorch your empty pans with lead melting temps and then wait for them to cool down to usable heat levels when it is more efficent to just start them out on the middling heat levels where you want them to be, anyway. How to tell when a pan is heated to a sizzling enough heat level: Try using the Leidenfrost effect aka the water droplet test. (For those who don't know, your pan is the right level of sizzling heat when water droplets act like balls of mercury and roll around the pan. If your pan is hot but not hot enough, the water droplets just bubble away. If the water droplets shatter into tinier droplets that rapidly skitter around like spilled bbs, the pan is too hot.) You don't need all 3700 watts of power to quickly get, say, an All Clad fry pan to the "mercury ball" stage and if you do use full power, then you are likely going to shoot way past your desired heat level. Does the foregoing help answer your questions?

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Reply to: A few points re the GE, I am sure the wattages you were given ARE boosted watts. Every major manufacturer induction range/stove I have seen in USA/Canada has a boost setting on all 4 cooktop hobs and those watts seem similar to GE's non-Cafe ranges. The cooktop temperature probe on GE Cafe sounds useful. Both Frigidaire and parent company Electrolux's induction ranges DO have high heat self-clean. Their controls face up so a little easier to use. The more deluxe featured Electrolux is in similar price range as the GE Cafe and Bosch but the Frigidaire is a low price bargain for an induction range and might be worth a look. With any modern induction range I would buy the longest extended warranty I could, my 3 year warranty saved me from repair bills at year 2 1/2 when the power company shorted out the neighbourhood while moving a power pole, denying compensation. 3 years later our Electrolux is still working. None of these modern appliances will give you 42 years of service or at least not without expensive repairs along the way. As for cooktop scratch prevention clean up any salt/sugar spills immediately, do not slide pots, and do as some of us have done as per long-time poster Kaseki suggested and cut small circles from a standard coloured silicone baking mat-not a SILPAT-and arrange in a triangle pattern on each hob for your pan to sit on. The overlapping cooktop models are probably designed for a standard 36 inch countertop but check height adjustment range if your new countertop is higher. I would only pay double for a Wolf if they are claiming a 20 year life if it came with a warranty for those 20 years, and Wolf has had ongoing blue oven enamel chipping problems, along with a class action lawsuit, so no.

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Reply to: Wannakow2, The folks who were "thrilled" with the 15.4 x 10.6 Demeyere were posting in the thread on the current Bosch induction ranges which can be found here: [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/brief-review-of-newest-bosch-induction-range-hiip055u-dsvw-vd~4725146[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/brief-review-of-newest-bosch-induction-range-hiip055u-dsvw-vd~4725146). You can probably use the Demeyere plancha over the paired 8" burners on the GE cafe. For one thing, the Demeyere planchas do a remarkable job of evenly spreading heat when placed over two adjoining burners, so the space between the burners should not be a problem in that regard. Also, IIRC, the Cafe's manuals lists 5" as the minimum pan size for each of those 8" hobs. If you think of those hobs as two 5" hobs there should be enough hob coverage for that plancha to work over the paired hobs. Also, there has been a general rule of thumb here that a pan will work on an induction hob if it covers least 60% of the hob. With that Demeyere plancha, you've probably got more like 80% coverage of both hobs. Of course, "should work" is not always "will work." If nobody posts here with actual experience with the plancha (or something similar) on the Cafe, you might try contacting GE customer service by phone or on the website.

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Reply to: I don't recall who, but I remember reading a comment from someone within the last few years who was thrilled to see this Demeyere plancha/teppanyaki on sale, which is again at the Zwilling website (for $129 "slight visual imperfections"): DEMEYERE 15.4" X 10.6" TEPPANYAKI PLANCHA GRIDDLE - VISUAL IMPERFECTIONS. Will this work on a GE Cafe Induction range with the two paired 8" elements? I was wondering if it would be too small because there's some space in between the two hobs, so total length would be greater than 16" and also the 10.6" width might be too small. Thanks!

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Reply to: The same unfortunate thing happened to our then 3-yr old Bosch oven when I tried running the self-clean function last year. Not within warranty period, so best I got was a discount on the replacement glass. Saved some money by installing the new glass ourselves. Ironically, I heard of the same thing happening to other brand ovens when I was in the process of purchasing. I guess any oven can get a defect in the glass which results in this. I just stay away from self-clean now.

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Reply to: >>>"After my current Electrolux, I'm rather skeptical about those baking drawers on the bottom of the oven actually being useful to me for much more than roasting veggies and so I'm not sure I can count on the slide-ins having two useful ovens."<<< Me, too. Some posters here have called the E'lux baking drawer a "warming drawer with delusions of granduer." :>) An oft recommended alternative to a baking drawer could be one of the Breville Smartovens. The thought is they have similar capacity but rather more versatility and at a more convenient height --- assuming you have the countertop space for it. >>>"The KA Double oven (love the double oven but not real thrilled with the large burner in the back and the remaining 3 are smaller than what I've currently got) . . . .... So I've got the KA ordered but they said it will be about 10 days to come in. He said if I change my mind before then, he can change the order so I do have a few days to think about this."<<< Besides the idiosyncratic burner layout of the KA/Whirlpool/Maytag double oven induction ranges, you also might want to think about the stovetop burners having only ten power settings. It may or may not be a concern for you, but there are no half-steps as you had on your Electrolux. (If your Elux freestanding range replicated the controls of the slide-in, you also had some quarter-step settings at the low end of the heating scale, too.) Of course, not everybody cares about that: witness the numbers of happy owners, for example, in the recent threads here on the Miele and Kitchenaid/JennAir slide-in models. A second thing to ponder is that Whirlpool induction products have had a reputation for somewhat coarse heat modulation in the low burner settings, too. Might be a concern, for example, if you regularly want to melt and hold a cup of chocolate in a small pan. (With six kids, though, I'm guessing that small quantities might be rare occurrences at your house.) Also, with your small army to feed, would you have any use for a burner-straddling griddle? IIRC, Kitchenaid sells one as an accessory to the double oven induction stove, but you can find a much better one by Demeyere at the clearance page of the website of ZwilingUSA, the parent company. The link is here. The Demeyere plancha/griddle is specifically designed to straddle induction burners and provide even heat across the entire cooking surface. (Most griddles give you hotter spots over the burners and less hot areas around them). I bought my Demeyere before Christmas when the price was a bit less than it is now. It works every bit as well as advertised. By far the best rectangular griddle I've ever used. Also, I've found its highly polished stainless steel surface is almost as easy to clean as non-stick and seasoned cast iron cooking surfaces. The thing works very well as a shallow roasting pan, too.

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Reply to: Ron: Have not seen the "Regular" model much less seen the Chef and Regular side by side, so cannot comment on any differences in feel. On feature differences, what I recall is that the "Regular" does not have the divisible flex oven, it's oven elements pull a bit less power, and it lacks an oven temp probe, but it adds some kind of smartphone app for monitoring the stovetop and oven. (IIRC, the app is only monitoring, not controlling the stove.) "Touchscreen" meaning "touchpads" for burner control? I ask because, AFAIK, only oven controls have actual touchscreens. As far as burner settings, my recollection is that the Electrolux induction stoves have the most burner settings by offering quarter-steps at the low end in addition to half steps for the rest of the settings. I think the Elux total is 23. 3katz4me has an Electrolux and can give you the exact number. Next most settings would be the Frigidaire and GE ranges which have 19 including half steps. Next is the Bosch with 17 or 18, IIRC. Miele is next with 12 settings. Everything else seems to have 9 or 10. ETA: While looking (unsucessfully) for theinductionsite grid, I see that the site is reporting that the very expensive Viking induction ranges are supposed to have continuously variable burner controls. Dunno if that is actually the case. It is possible and might be contributing to Viking's very high price. Garland-Manitowiac has these kinds of controls on its expensive commercial induction products (staring at $1600 for their least expensive single burner unit). Cooktek, Viking's corporate sibling, comes close with 100-step induction controllers and burners for its commercial induction products. Given the Viking's pricing ($2k more than the already very expensive Miele), and Viking's apparently iffy reputation, I'm guessing that having continuous burner settings would not change your opinion that the Viking is too expensive.

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Reply to: Kim -- I believe the doubleoven Kitchenaid KFID500ESS induction range also has the smaller oven on top. That said, the stove might or might not otherwise be to your liking. Joanna --- If you have not already seen it, [this recent thread here [(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/ge-cafe-induction-range-questions-dsvw-vd~5031170)discusses the Cafe induction ranges and most of the posters who bought and used one have been pretty positive. Every stove model is a mix of engineering, design and budgetary trade-offs and compromises. I agree with Sophie's point that: " There are not a lot of bad choices in induction. Mostly good to very good choices." The trick is figuring out the most acceptable mix of trade-offs for you. Sophie mentioned considering whether you will want half-step power settings, which some of us like for finer heat control. Others find finer steps unnecessary for their cooking and are happy with 10 or so power settings. For others, it is a matter of indifference. That's a personal preference to consider. FWIW, the Electrolux induction ranges offer quarter-step increments in the low power range. For even finer control, the GE Cafe ranges offer what amounts to infinitely variable settings. The trade-off for getting the infinitely variable power is that the GE Cafe models do not provide the kind of digital read-out that other induction ranges offer for displaying the exact power setting in use, a feature that makes it easy to replicate a heat setting. This is neither good nor bad; it's just a trade-off. There can be all sorts of factors and aspects to consider depending on what matters to you and how much. For example, some of us strongly prefer rotary digital interfaces for burner controls (i.e., knobs like you find on the GE Cafe models). Others strongly prefer one or more of the kinds of touch pad controls you find on other induction ranges. Others here have no particular peference one way or the other. Some burner touchpads are integrated into the cooktop surface where other ranges segregate the controls in a rectangular panel. Some use plus and minus keys to change settings where others might use use sliders or direct access pads. Because there is a lot of personal preference on such things, it can be very helpful to find a stove available for demo so you can figure out what may work or not work for you. Some stoves these days offer a "demo mode" which allows customers to play with the various settings without heating anything. At the very least, it is a good idea to download the user guide/operating manual to get a sense of how the stove may or may not work for you. Also, check out the installation instructions, particularly the specifications for the required minimum amperage and location of the electrical connections. Some ranges, such as the Bosch & GE models, can be installed to a 40 amp circuit. Others, such as the Electrolux and LG slide-in models, specify a 50 amp circuit as the minimum. If you want a "50 amp range" and your house has a 40 Amp circuit, then you'll need to consider how easy or hard it would be to upgrade. Outlet location also should be checked as there is variation in where manufacturers want the outlet placed for particular stove models. I note in particular that the Bosch 800 and Benchmark models have some unique requirements for locating the electrical connections --- flush mounted into the wall at 12 or 15 inches above floor level. Best find those things out before buying a range. Even if you were buying new construction or doing a down-to-the studs remodel, you would want to get those things sorted while the walls are open and it is easy to place the outlet and run the kind cable you need where you will need it.

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Reply to: >>>" Is the lower double oven large enough for a turkey"<<< The double-oven version of the GE Cafe's has a bottom oven is rated at 4.1 cu. ft. That will easily hold most turkeys. For reference, my non-GE stove's 4.2 cu. ft. oven had room to spare with the 25 pound bird we had one Thanksgiving.

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Reply to: Joanna - Further on the Kitchenaid slide-in induction range. 1. You might find these two threads helpful , if you have not already you seen them. There is this long running thread: [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-kitchen-aid-induction-range-dsvw-vd~2992220[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-kitchen-aid-induction-range-dsvw-vd~2992220) As that thread started before the stove actually got to buyers, you might want to skip to the second half which has the posts from buyers after receiving and using their stoves. There is also this thread which was running until earlier this year and focused mainly on the topics of bridging and power cycling at low power settings: [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/two-questions-about-kitchenaid-induction-range-dsvw-vd~4324202 [(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/two-questions-about-kitchenaid-induction-range-dsvw-vd~4324202) 2. Adding to what boba1 said, you might want to check out these two long running threads on "AquaLift self-cleaning" if you haven't seen them already: [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/aqualift-technology-on-maytag-ranges-oven-cleaning-dsvw-vd~2293510 [(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/aqualift-technology-on-maytag-ranges-oven-cleaning-dsvw-vd~2293510) and [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/do-not-buy-whirlpool-aqualift-range-dsvw-vd~4654971 [(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/do-not-buy-whirlpool-aqualift-range-dsvw-vd~4654971)

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Reply to: I don't have a 5" pan, but I do have this set: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Tramontina-8-Piece-18-10-Stainless-Steel-Tri-Ply-Clad-Cookware-Set/19581112 The smallest pot and pan both work on the biggest hob. Supposedly, you can have up to a 1.5-2" variance and it will work.

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