Neil,

I grow a lot of plants from seed indoors and, in my opinion, the special purpose fluorescent lights are an unnecessary expense. I just use inexpensive 4-foot fluorescent shoplights that use the T8 bulbs. I now prefer the very cool white bulbs that are rated at 6500K. They cost less per bulb if you buy them in 10 packs. A home store like Home Depot or Lowe's is a good place to shop.

When I first started growing indoors a few years ago, Home Depot had two-bulb 4-foot shoplights for a little over $6 each and I bought 10-packs of 4100K Philips T8 bulbs for $19.95, which made the bulbs cost $2 each. I now pay a little more for 6500K bulbs.

People discovered that the ballast alone was worth more than the $6 price of those shoplights, so the price rose to $8. That is where I bought most of my fixtures. That fixture was discontinued by Home Depot and replaced by a narrower fixture (using the same Park SL15 electronic ballast). Those fixtures looked just like this one, except that fixture apparently has an even cheaper magnetic ballast.

I needed more fixtures, so I bought 6 of them from Home Depot, also at a few cents over $8 per fixture. This fixture was narrower than my original shoplights and I liked that you could hang them closer together over the plants. I hang four 2-bulb shoplights over a 2-foot x 4-foot shelf. I had to notch the corners of the reflectors of my original shoplights to do that, but the new narrow fixtures fit without any modification. I place four standard 11" x 22" seedling trays per shelf.

Cheap fixtures have cheap ballasts which do burn out sooner than more expensive fixtures, like this one. However, I like the form factor of the narrow fixtures, so I bought a bunch of better ballasts to replace the cheap ballasts as they expire. I am also using those ballasts to "overdrive" some of my fixtures. I did the overdrive modification to one of my narrow fixtures today. The overdriven fixtures are very bright. It almost hurts your eyes to look at them. My plan is to eventually overdrive most or all of my fixtures. You might want to go over to the Growing under Lights forum for more detailed information. Seedlings benefit from a lot of light.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it a lot. :)

Should I leave it on for 8 hours daily? How long do you leave your flourescent lights when germinating seeds?

the special purpose fluorescent lights are an unnecessary expense.

===>> zen knocked it out of the park .. but let me summarize it concisely ... and yell

THEY ARE A WASTE OF MONEY ...

any common light ... replaced every season..

kept about 2 inches above the plant... on 16 hours.. off 8 .. with a timer ...

the most lights you can have are best ... a bank of 4 is better than two ...

its really easy.. so go big.. because your success will dictate wanting more growing area ....

i was once told.. one on/off cycle in the middle of the 8 hours off will confuse the plants into believing that they are getting 24 of light ....

here is what you can do.. if you get really carried away
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sterilize EVERYTHING when you start.. and avoid many problems later.. see link for sterilizing soil ... 10% bleach on absolutely all other things .....

and the ABSOLUTELY MOST IMPORTANT VARIABLE ... planning out your timing ....

it will do you absolutely no good.. to have garden ready plants.. IN MARCH ... in your zone ... i seem to recall you are z5 ... which means they will go out in late may ... read your seed packs.. and if they are to flower in 90 days.. then 90 days prior to planting date means not starting until February or so ...

last idea.. do NOT plant all your seeds of a type at one time.. in case of failure.. you can try again ...

ken

hosta seedlings above.. conifer cuttings below
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these were culled and potted up to cups ... started in flats ...
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Here is a link that might be useful: link

Neil,

"Should I leave it on for 8 hours daily? How long do you leave your fluorescent lights when germinating seeds?"

Ken summarized it nicely, "kept about 2 inches above the plant... on 16 hours.. off 8 .. with a timer ..."

I use small square plastic pots in white plastic trays to start my zinnia seeds early.

{{gwi:18189}}
I use Premier ProMix BX, purchased locally, as a sterile growing medium, and I usually add some Perlite to it for better drainage. It already has some Perlite and Vermiculite in it, along with the basic Sphagnum Peat moss and an inoculation of beneficial mycorrhizal fungus. I like it because it is clean and odorless and apparently doesn't need to be sterilized. Premier ProMix makes a variety of products, but I use just the ProMix BX with the beneficial mycorrhizal fungi. I use it for everything: seed starting, re-potting, and even growing plants to maturity indoors.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

hey zen

looks like an operating room there... what is your protocol for cleanliness???

i used to rely on the bag stating a product was sterile ... much mold and gnats later.. i dampen my media.. and bake it in a dollar store turkey alum pan.. or nuke it ...

you only need to end up with hordes of fungus gnats circling your head all winter IN THE HOUSE... to learn not to rely on marketing statements.. lol .. the TV.. the lamps.. the kids ... etc ....

ken

Ken,

"...what is your protocol for cleanliness?"

I rely on two products, Mosquito Dunks to prevent fungus gnats and Physan 20 for everything else.

I place a Mosquito Dunk in a big Ziploc bag, put the bag on a concrete floor, and pound the Dunk to powder with a small hand sledge. I pour the powdered Dunk into a gallon jug of water and shake it up well to produce a stock solution of Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis. I add a dash of that stock solution to every gallon of dilute nutrients that use. That makes my growing medium immune to fungus gnats.

If an adult fungus gnat flew in the door and laid eggs on my medium, the Bti (Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis) would kill the eggs on contact, preventing fungus gnat maggots even before they got started. Incidentally, you definitely want to prevent fungus gnats, not just to avoid the clouds of adults in your house, but more importantly you want to prevent their maggots from devouring the root hairs of your plants. The damage done by fungus gnat maggots feeding on your plant roots will seriously stunt your plants, and possibly kill your plants. An infestation of fungus gnats is bad news for indoor gardening. I know how bad fungus gnats can be and that is why I always use the Mosquito Dunks in my indoor gardening.

Mosquito Dunks are a known control for fungus gnats. The adults don't eat the Bti, so they aren't affected, and that has been the reason why so many people have reported that Mosquito Dunks are ineffective against them. But Bti is very effective at eliminating fungus gnats at the egg-maggot stage in their life cycle. Incidentally, the adult fungus gnats don't harm your plants, except to mate and lay eggs on your growing medium. It is their maggots who do the damage.

"i dampen my media.. and bake it in a dollar store turkey alum pan.. or nuke it ... "

I would never do that, because it would kill the mycorrhizal fungi in my growing medium. My growing medium is a living thing, and I want to keep it that way. The mycorrhizal fungi form a beneficial symbiotic relationship with my plants.

Physan 20 is very useful to me in many ways, as that link indicates. I sterilize re-washed pots with it. I use it to prevent bacteria from destroying my zinnia cuttings. I spray it on leaves to prevent bacterial infections. I make up a stock solution of 1.5 teaspoons of Physan 20 per gallon of water and keep it handy. I keep some of that solution in a hand sprayer. I moisten a paper towel with it and wipe things down, much as you would use Windex. Physan 20 is also used a lot in greenhouses. And I understand that hospitals use it in their mop water. I also use it outdoors in foliar sprays on my hybrid zinnias. I bought a gallon jug of the Physan 20 concentrate, because I use it so much.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

Few more questions, are those shelves enclosed or can they be open?

Is the 16 hours also applicable to seeds that haven't germinated?

Thanks guys for those very detailed HOWTO! :D

my rack is in a cement closet under the front porch in the basement ... that is why it looks so enclosed ..

as it is imperative that the lights be movable.. up and down .. that is how you get your access ... look at zens last pic... the lights are on hardware chain .. and can be suspended from large teacup hooks ... and infinitely adjusted as the plants grow ...

seeds are encapsulated.. and i would suggest light is irrelevant.. but i have no science behind that gut reaction ... and i would not be surprised if i am corrected ...

BUT.. seeds need media heat ... that is why they sprout in spring in mother earth .... when the soil temp hits the magic bingo number.. like all that science??? .. lol ...

so.. in the great white north ... IF YOU ARE DOING THIS in the COLD basement.. a heat mat will help ... they are sold at beer brewing stores to germinate whatever [are you near Milwaukee .. somewhere up there i know.. they have beer dont they .. lol] ... (and no.. i would not use a heat mat from the bed, since it is probably not rated for water exposure, and i fear the whomph monster .. the last thing you hear as you are electrocuted) .. see link

you can see it under the conifer rootings ..

in the alternative ... the top of the fridge is usually warmer than other places in the house ... though i seem to recall that it might not be so on newer fridges, but for the fact that the room might be warmer near the ceiling ...

if you are running a forced air furnace.. humidity management will be very important.. as the plants like a lot more humidity than a heated house up north might have ..

unless you are talking hosta.. or impatiens ... i think you are going to have to do some web surfing to get specific info on your seeds .... unless zenny knows all ...

BTW.. zen ... i may want to steal your mosquito dunk idea... and spread it around my hosta friends ... any problem with that ...

and zen, my VERY cursory review.. seems that the physan is just a substitute for 10% bleach ... being a cheap son of my mom ... a buck and a half for bleach.. i can go a long way before having to buy your stuff ... is there any down side to bleach and soap??? [like a lysol disinfectant]

listen virt ... presume to fail ... and be wildly surprised at success ... its not really that hard.. and i think we have hit the basics ... and frankly.. fear your success .. lol

but again i will stress ... TIMING IS EVERYTHING ... i once.. only once.. got all excited around 1/1 .... you know.. holidays over.. lots of time.. winter doldrums ... and by 4/1 .. 90 days later i was all set to go outside with it all ... and then by 6/1 when they could go out.. a total nightmare failure ... as i kinda lost track of the indoor project when the weather broke and i could get into the garden in mid april ... and forgot all about spending time in the dark basement ...

so i figure you have about 2 months to get this all put together ... before you actually start ...

and zen did mention one other thing.. i used a gal. milk jug ... 4 actually ... filled with tap water.. so it could stand, come to room temps.. and shed chlorine and fluoride ... and about 1/4 teaspoon of soluble fert in each.. a little food every time they got a drink ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: flip tot eh images side ... and buy one big enough for the trays you will use ....

Awesome! Everything answered and even the question that I'm about to ask, you also answered it! :D

Thanks again!!!

Ken,

"i may want to steal your mosquito dunk idea... and spread it around my hosta friends ... any problem with that ... "

No problem at all. Fungus gnats are our common enemy.

"...seems that the physan is just a substitute for 10% bleach...is there any down side to bleach and soap?"

I don't know for sure. Bleach is good for a lot of things, and I have been using it to "disinfest" explants for tissue culture experiments. I suspect that bleach is much more phytotoxic than Physan 20. And Physan 20 may be more persistent and long lasting as a residual. I use Physan 20 to sterilize zinnia cuttings, and in their rooting medium. The sodium hypochlorite in bleach is very chemically reactive and I suspect it would try to "bleach" the ProMix and thus de-activate itself. Physan 20, unlike bleach, does not try to chemically react with everything it comes into contact with.

But I suspect that you are right, that bleach could serve just as well in some of the applications I use Physan 20 for. For example, bleach would probably work as well as Physan 20 for sterilizing re-washed pots and work surfaces. You have piqued my curiosity about possible uses for Lysol.

ZM

Neil,

"...are those shelves enclosed or can they be open?"

My shelves are ordinary open chrome wire shelving. They are on casters to make them easy to move around. The shelves can be adjusted up or down in one-inch increments.

{{gwi:1768}}
However, I place a humidity dome over a tray to keep the medium moist until the seedlings emerge. As soon as a seedling emerges in a pot, I take that pot out from under the humidity dome. Otherwise, it will stretch and become gangly. If you look close in the picture above, you can see several humidity domes that have been "parked" on top of fluorescent fixtures after all of their seedlings emerged.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

hey zen...

your electric setup reminds me of christmas story .... with all those duplicate plugins on the left rack ... lol ...

make sure your plug expanders have fuses ...

note all the standing milk jugs ...

looks like a freakin operating room in the hospital ...

my wife would kill me if i had a sprayer in the house .... mostly for the atomized smell rather than what is sprayed ...

i am surprised you havent protected the wood floor.. though i suspect you dont have young kids in the house ....

noting the hardware chain ... why is it important that the shelves move in one inch increments???

so many questions.. so little time.. lol ...

oh.. and where did you get the racks??? .... bed/bath and beyond type of kitchen store????

if you know ANYONE who is an electro-magician .... and will work for beer ... ask them how to make.. or make for you ... a safer plug system ... in my world.. water and electric are not for mixing ... especially if there are crumb crunchers around ... see pic below ...

my stand started back about 20 years ago .. saw a $500 stand at the yuppie garden shop ... wasnt going to pay that.. so i asked if they could sell me just the trays ... and 4 trays were less than $75 ... then i just went to work with 2 x4's and screws and a dream ....

i really like the trays with edges to aid in dripped water ... or spilled ...

ken

{{gwi:26625}}

if you look real close.. under the metal plug box .... there are screws to hold an 8 plug expander with a breaker fuse .. like you might use under your computer ... the key.. is that it is all 3 prong ... a little more safety ...

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Here is a link that might be useful: looks like the price went up ... next post.. clearance s

Thanks for posting your pics. That helps me a lot. :)

I think I have extra 2x3 or 2x4s that I can use for this project. I'm going out this weekend to check for cheap flourescent lights and fixtures.

check out the clearance rack in general..

and the link specifically .. looks cheaper than buying just the trays ...

you would have to add the common shop lights... either a 4 light fixture.. or most likely .. a pair of two light fixtures would be cheaper... the reflectors are the important part ... the bigger the better ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Hi Ken,

"...make sure your plug expanders have fuses ..."

Those are actually surge protectors, each with its own switch. (Electronic fluorescent ballasts are sensitive to voltage spikes.) I got the cheaper surge protectors from Home Depot, and they don't have their own circuit breakers. My setup is dependent on the house breaker box, which would kick in if the current draw got excessive.

"...my wife would kill me if i had a sprayer in the house ...."

It's not for spraying. It is for delivering nutrient solution. I removed the nozzle so that I could use the sprayer wand to deliver water to hard-to-reach pots. I use a finger-pump spritzer for any spraying of foliar feed, GreenCure, or Physan. The spritzer spray is very course, and doesn't get into the air.

"...noting the hardware chain ... why is it important that the shelves move in one inch increments?"

The shelves are adjustable up-and-down on the vertical posts, but they grip onto the vertical posts in one-inch increments. There are grooves around the verticals at one-inch spacing, and plastic shelf mounting pieces fit into those grooves. That is the scheme that most wire frame shelves use. It is rather ingenious because a wedge action makes the attachment self-tightening.

"...and where did you get the racks?"

I got them from Northern Tool by an Internet purchase a good many years ago. They were on sale at $129 per rack, including four 2' x 4' shelves and 5-inch casters, and I got three of them. They were actually classified as material handling service carts. Shipping was free. They would cost considerably more today, but I believe that particular item has been discontinued. Even slow inflation has an insidious compounding effect on price increases.

"...the reflectors are the important part ... the bigger the better ..."

We will have to agree to disagree on that. In my opinion, the smaller the better, because narrow fixtures allow you to hang more of them in a particular area. My favorite shoplights are only 5 inches wide, so that I can easily get four of them over a 2-foot by 4-foot shelf. That gives me 8 T8 bulbs per shelf, and for even more light, I overdrive the fixtures. I have even considered using strip lights instead of shoplights, because their reflector-free design would allow them to be mounted more densely than shoplights.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

with reflectors.. i only use 4 lamps per shelf ...

i dont see 8 per shelf in your setup .. but i believe you ...

bottom line.. WHATEVER WORKS... WORKS!!!

ken

Hi Ken,

"i don't see 8 per shelf in your setup .. but i believe you ... "

You are right that in the picture I posted on Fri, Dec 17, 10 at 2:28 some of the shelves had less than four fixtures. I believe the two bottom shelves were fully populated with four fixtures then, but the middle and upper shelves had less at that time. That picture was taken early last year. In the plant stand on the right, those gallon jugs were moved to the top of the stand and that middle shelf was equipped with shoplights to allow four more seedling trays to go there. If you look closely in the first picture that I posted here in this thread, you can see four chains supporting the four fixtures there. (The fourth chain is just visible on the right-hand side of the picture.)

We are renters, and this Spring we moved to a bigger place, for more room both inside and outside. We moved about 15 miles from an in-town place to a rural area. By making multiple trips, we were able to move everything in the back of our minivan (we took out the back two rows of seats temporarily, to make room for the bigger items.) An advantage of having mobile free-standing plant stands was that we could move them with us, which we did. I disassembled them for the move.

There is a nice place in the basement here for my plant stands, and I have re-assembled one stand and populated it with two shelves of zinnia cuttings that I took this Fall to "rescue" some of my favorite "breeder" zinnias from the impending killing frost. I will have room here for all three of my plant stands. I will be re-assembling my other two 2' x 4' shelving units and expanding my indoor gardening as the Winter progresses. Thanks for the vote of confidence. "Trust but verify" is still a good policy.(Grin).

ZM

You've answered the questions I had also. Thanks to both of you! I had purchased the T5 bulbs and fancy setup because people went back and forth about what was appropriate, and it just confused me. But after reading this, I feel certain that any other units I buy will be what you mentioned as far as lighting goes. I'm currently looking to buy two separate racks that will give me eight more shelves with lights.

Seeing the gallon jugs reminded me one time when I answered my front door holding a jug with Miracle Gro water in it with latex gloves on. My sister said I looked like a mad scientist! :))

Thanks again!
Alicia