I am a frequent "lurker". I work in a skilled trade (sewing) and I love following threads about concept and design. Believe it, or not, there are many parallels in our fields!

I'm more apt to post and reply to threads about "help me". I'm usually too intimidated to offer my own "take" on design concepts. I know what I like, I know what pleases me, but I'm not so sure I'm willing to jump into the fray and "go for it"... well, not USUALLY.

This is a really "tough" room, you guys. You can be brutally honest with newcomers; not sure that's bad, but it certainly doesn't elicit discussion, nor does it foster participation by the likes of people like me.

Actually, this thread seems to generating alot more action than many others I'm checking.

It generated a lot of action on other threads. It did last time too.

I agree Chelone,
The overall tone of this forum is odd and generally not comfortable. One gets the sense that the pro's would prefer that non-pro's not post here. It is clear that certain kinds of posts aren't welcome. Maybe we need a landscaping design for beginners forum and a landscaping theory for pro's forum.

I think much of the site has a knowledge gap chronically evident. Probably just a reflection of overall gardening scene. Some commercial interests are constantly telling the uninitiated that it's easier and simpler than it is, luring them in with false promises. Many consumers may have short attention spans anyway, hobby greenhouses, gardening tools and flower borders aren't the only abandoned things one sees around by any means.

Enough with the pro vs non-pro crap. I've been around here a few years and with the exception of one mean and unprovoked posting by Eric, have never been slammed here. In fact, quite the opposite! The intolerance that's perceived on this forum is not one of the pros toward the non-pros. It's one of the thinkers toward the inane fools who post with self-authority but really don't have a clue what they're talking about.

When I hit this forum the first time, I was such a newbie. I wanted a Bradford pear, I had just planted a row of Lonicera japonicus, and it had never ocurred to me that design could extend beyond perimeter plantings and tree rings. And it's not like I'd not read up on things. I'd already done the library trip, was a googling pro, and had been reading gardening mags for years. But lurking here refined my landscaping design eyes. I began to see design, to understand why things work the way they do. This has been a tremendous source of intellectual enrichment that I've missed sorely since I left a career in academia.

And I don't think it's all gone. I do think, however, that with fewer pros posting it's left to a lot of homeowners like me (and many other homeowner regulars) who know enough to know what doesn't work...but don't know how to formulate an answer that does. I think a lot of us hang back and wait for more experienced voices to reply rather than jumping in and killing the thread with our simplistic musings.

I don't think the pros object to amateurs posting here at all. The problem arises when a homeowner with little or no experience posts their intention to do something that is blatantly bad design, and gets support or additional questionable advice from other amateurs.

If the goal is to spare everyone's feelings, the design will go forward, with poor results, and no one will have learned anything of value.

If the goal is to learn and share information about design principles, the more experienced and pros on forum should be encouraged to disagree, and tell us why they disagree. Snarky comments, condescension, and ridicule aren't necessary, but sometimes even an attempt at a little humor is miscontrued as a personal attack. After all, one's taste is being questioned, isn't it?

Earlier in this thread I got drawn into an intemperate response to an uncalled-for personal attack, which I regret and am not going to repeat (ginger, I have no idea what you're referring to but I would welcome an e-mail so that whatever misunderstanding took place could be settled amicably).

As to controversy and heated threads, I think everybody enjoys them, at least on occasion (including the parties involved, onlookers in their lawn chairs and "scolds"). If handled right, they encourage forum participation.

What we should avoid is sending a message that certain subjects are trite or otherwise unwelcome. As long as they fit within the forum description, they belong - and can be responded to or avoided as one chooses. How-to threads (like it or not) are the bread and butter of this forum and reflect everyday concerns of members. I think this thread might better have been phrased along lines such as "We had some interesting discussions of X and Y aspects of gardening design awhile back. Does anyone have any followup?"

On the subject of complaints from gardeners about the tone employed in responding to their questions - occasionally this does relate to a limited sense of humor or hurt feelings about any real attempt at a critique. Often though, comments to the "uninitiated" do cross the line, and there's a sense that some people in the design field are relieving the day-to-day frustrations they would never dare to deal with so directly in real life. There are posters who (as we've seen here) like being "intimidated", but most will respond far better to a tone of respect.

And if one enjoys dealing in snark and condescension, do not be surprised or outraged if it comes back at you. Ironbelly is a good example of a poster who could take it as well as dish it out. I hope we see his contributions again soon.

Saypoint summed it up.

It is a free forum and ANYONE can ask ANY question.

Although I am not a psychologist, some of the psycho lessons apply. If I stick to the "I" approach and respond to the question itself, things should work out.
I don't speak for the forum as a group and I am not Queen Elizabeth; therefore MY responses should not be "WE need photos" or "if you would...then WE would.."
If I don't want to answer the question, I shouldn't try to tell the poster how he's such a dope for posting here. If the question goes unanswered, so what? If a poster then comes back and says, Why isn't anyone responding? and I WANT to say why "I" haven't or what would help ME, I may do so, hopefully in a constructive way. I should not try to say why someone else has not or say, "we usually expect....". And if NO ONE answers, so what? and if the poster says, you guys are no help, just ignore it, already.

I've read with interest the posts on this thread, and now feel a little sheepish about my newbie gardener questions. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents... I have SO enjoyed and learned from many of the posts in these forums, informational, humorous, and thoughtful, you guys are great writers. Sometimes someone's reply or suggestions will give me a lightbulb moment in terms of looking at the lanscape possibilities in a totally different way, break me out of my rut, so to speak, and while it's true a google search could probably answer some questions, often the advice of an experienced gardner can pinpoint the important aspects of some new information you are trying to gather, at least I appreciate the advice of people who have "been there/done that" when I'm wading through a potentially expensive project where I'm about to spend money on things I don't need or the wrong products.

I know that the experienced master gardners here probably get bored with a lot of the newbie questions, and like any group of artists, need a forum for the more conceptual discussions. Maybe there could be a new forum for just the relative pros to discuss all those creative gardening/landscaping nuances?

I have been a lurker/poster on an alternative health web site called curezone.com for the last 4 years or so. I started out just reading, then with a lot of lame questions, which many more experienced people were kind enough to answer, and now I spend time sharing what I've learned with the new crop of newbies, even when I don't have time, because I feel like I should, and I'm so grateful it was there in the first place and others were willing to share and be patient with me.

Anyway, I certainly appreciate the help I've found here. I was planning to post a photo of my front and back yard to see if I could get some suggestions, but I will definitely try to be as specific as possible. Yes, in a sense I'm looking for free advice, but I'm not lazy & cheap, we just can't afford to hire a pro, I have to do most of it myself, and I want to do it right. :)

"The uninitiated" is merely a brief way to describe a level of awareness of a topic, not a putdown--unless it is thought that not knowing much about a subject is a state of inferiority. All I'm interested in here is getting valid information across, that bum steers not be given. My beef was about those who bite the hand that feeds, that's the phenomonon that takes me back. As with other surprises, the solution is to just continue talking (posting), as though nothing had happened.

Eric, no biggie. I certainly don't take things personally. Like you said, most here enjoy the repartee. I was just meaning that I'm a non-pro and I've received what the others have received...no more and no less. Sorry, I was singling you out and I shouldn't have. We banter here. It's a good thing. And sometimes "innocents" get dragged into it. Life goes on. That's all I meant.

Since this thread had turned into somewhat of a "meet and greet", let me say that I am also a lurker on this forum, off and on, for a couple of years. I have experienced both being intimidated by the more outspoken posters and being bored by the "help me, help me" requests. The combined effect of both has prevented me from becoming more active.

Overall, though, there's one thing that drives me CRAZY (not so much in this forum as in some others) and that's the "I'm OK, you're OK, design is subjective" attitude. It makes me insane to see a posted photo of someone's piddly patch of mismatched flowers and the commentary is, "that's nice, so homey." Although I appreciate that someone's feelings might be hurt when his/her prize garden photo doesn't generate rave reviews, maybe he should think twice before posting if all he is doing is trying to pat himself on the back. Platitudes are not going to be helpful if there are bigger issues of scale and proportion that need to be addressed.

So, let me sy that I've really appreciated the "big voices" of the heavyweights around here. I, too, would like to see more theoretical discussion going on. So, who's going to post a starter question?

PS--I'll update my page so you can know who I am--if you are at all interested.

I should have written, "...taste is subjective," because, in my opinion, far from being subjective, the principles of design are quite defined to the point of being mathematical. Then you bring the art to the execution.

Banter. I like it "Earlier in this thread I got drawn into an intemperate response to an uncalled-for personal attack" my heart bleeds. The guy once had a pop at me for my sentence structure. What does he mean in this garbled sentence I wonder? Eric has a record, don't trust me look it up, of rudely directing people to a place where the question is more appropriate according to him. Now he feigns innocence. Puleeze. "What we should avoid is sending a message that certain subjects are trite or otherwise unwelcome" like improper sentence structure?

I can't believe I just read through all these posts! Being a newbie here myself, I had no idea what laag was talking about, but something about his original post made me want to continue reading. And, I must say that having read all of it, I was giddy thinking about what the forum must have been like when it wasn't all gone. Even though I certainly have no professional experience and my idea of gardening is more about the process than the finished result, I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to see theory discussed. Maybe there are more people like that here, maybe, like me, they just didn't know that's what this place was for.

When I started posting, I had no idea who the professionals were or weren't. There's nothing that I saw on the forum that said what in particular it was for. In my mind, the "we" was all just a bunch of gardeners sharing their experience and ideas. I must say that knowing how many professionals are on here makes me kind of nervous. But, then again, as a doula you wouldn't think I'd could make better decisions about births than and obstetrician - but so often, that's the case. I know enough to know that doing something doesn't make you good at something and having head knowledge doesn't translate into skill that has heart.

I also know that I tend to speak my mind too quickly and too aggressively sometimes. I try to be nice but typing words to a screen name on the internet doesn't give the same motivation to be civil as a face-to-face chat. So if I'm a really nice person *grin* but still come across as a jerk sometimes, then I guess I have to figure that's happens with everyone else at times too.

In any case, start your discussions back up. I don't know if anybody would care what I have to say, but I'd certainly love to read them.

What adamante keeps erroneously referring to is a thread started by another poster awhile back to berate him for his rudeness in other discussions (the thread has apparently since been deleted). My contribution to that thread was rather neutral compared to a general tone of disapproval. It included a comment that a few things (including your being from Canada and your sentence structure) reminded me of the then absent Inkognito.

Since you keep insisting that my comment on that linguistic similarity constitutes harsh criticism, it would appear that you believe there is something deficient in the way Inkognito expresses himself. Which is rather rude, don't you think?

The previously noted similarities aside, the way you're obsessed on this subject might make us wonder if you share something else with Ink. Like the same DNA. ;>

Verry interestink, but stoopid. All Canadians share the same DNA? Earlier in this thread I got drawn into an intemperate response to an uncalled-for personal attack but I shall ignore it, even rise above it, sentence structure intact.

I remember that thread, and was aware that Eric's comment on nationality and sentence structure meant that he thought you might actually be Ink, with a new name, thus the DNA comment. I've wondered the same thing myself.

Amateur_expert, a lot of the older really good threads are still there. Just start on page 34 of the threads and work forward. One especially good thread with an especially boring name was "New Front Bed" which was started by GreenGuy.

A lot of other good ones were started by janandalan, mjsee, prairie_love, miss_rumphius_rules, inkognito, laag, shag, mich_in_zonal_denial and so on. (I hope I haven't left anyone out...)

Sharon

Here is a link that might be useful: New Front Bed

It's rather absurd that hailing from Canada is a major factor influencing some posters to wonder whether adamante could actually be ink under a different name.
It's a big country folks.
And no, we don't all live in igloos. We don't have moose wandering the streets of all our cities either....
;) Lizzy

Sammie, I like you! Perhaps, since we're both from the Pacific Northwest, we share the same DNA? "piddly patch of mismatched flowers" will keep me grinning all eve!

And hey, about old threads.... did you know that old threads never die, they just fall off the page? Pick a post, any post, off any page in the forum, and respond to it, even with just one word (it's called bumping up a thread), and bingo it will move to the top of the forum. Mind you, many picture postings probably won't work anymore. And sometimes, a topic or idea does need a new start.

And with all those commas in a row I probably shouldn't mention sentence structure at all, but... Adamante and Ink??? Puleeze is right. I admit I always enjoy your expressions, Adamante, but structure... I dunno. By the way, I think Adamante might ALSO be thinking of the two threads (not just one but two) that criticized him (is him right?) for being mean, which is a line every refreshingly outspoken person occastionally crosses.

And Eric, I think the Ginger issue had something to do with (yum) Niersteiner Splese, unless another kind of wine also comes in blue bottles...

Cheers!

Hmmmm, sure is more than the usual amount of sniping around here, but before the Canucks get too bent out of shape, let me ask this:

>>>>Do you know how to view and read the code in page source?color>

The two Canadians in question, Ink and Adamante, seem to share more than DNA. They are posting from the same computer. Take a look; it's right there in green and white. Coincidence? You be the judge.

The "they are one" suspicion seems to be more than a couple of 'mericans stereotyping their neighbors to the north. When you read and communicate with someone for enough years, writing patterns become evident. I only wish I had been as observant.

Thanks for the detective work, vicki.

Long before I ever saw GardenWeb or ever heard of this forum, I discovered Eric's previous, wonderful website about Texas gardening. It was an inspiration to this midwesterner who'd been transplanted to Texas. So I owe him big and don't want to be crabby, but... Eric! Some of us who spoke about being intimidated didn't necessarily LIKE to be intimidated!! You make it seem like some Ess and Emm thing. Maybe some of us just PUT UP with the intimidation factor because we like the class so well.

Sammie talks about other forums that post photos and affirm each other. The Texas forum is one that does a lot of this, but they also pass along genuine down-in-the-dirt advice, experiences and information. I like that forum a lot, too.

Nearly forty years ago I was in college, enjoying some exciting classes with daring discussions and snarky professors, especially those teaching political science, art and philosophy. There were also other classes that were more cooperative in nature, taught by friendly teachers, like freshman science or some of the French classes. Too many nice classes and it's snoozetime; too many cranky ones and it's ulcer time.

I've had both kinds of 'classes' in these forums, and I like that!! I just hope that this one can retain its edge, and let the words fly free, even if some of them do come from us amateurs.

Annie
PS To take the class analogy to its cheesy limits, of late I have even been giving myself 'tests', reading the new questions but not peeking at the 'answers' until I have formulated my own imaginary reply ... then whooping like mad if my idea comes anywhere near that of someone like laag or saypoint. Told you it was cheesy.

Burp!

Thank You Inkognito

There seems to be a hole that has been ripped into the fabric of space and time and the Villages defenses are down. You are safe until Trudizilla is informed

I want to publicly say thank you Tony/Inkognito. Our sparring was the spark that got me writing. I do not know where it will go or if anything will come of it but I am no longer thinking about it. I am doing it.

Friend or Foe, I like to think friend, you took the House Across the Street with such royal grace. Life can be difficult among the Goody Two Shoes. They fuss and complain but they are very much entertained.

Cyberspace is an immense and fascinating place. Whole new worlds exist outside the Villages garden walls.

I move on, better for having been here.

Illicium, we were just thinking of you!!!

AnnieinAustin, I'm blushing, but I really need not be mentioned in the same breath as laag, who is a Landscape Architect, with capital letters, and I but a lowly student of landscape design, lowercase, at the local community college. He and the other pros and talented amateurs make this forum different from the others, and I miss the participation of some who have gone.

Ummm, does this mean it was actually ink who was so fond of the wooden bending-over in the garden ladies on the tzotchkes thread?

Saypoint, you may not have the capital letters but I bow to your intelligence and creativity. At the same time, wouldn't it be wonderful to have the mix of writers that were here last year?

Annie -

I certainly don't think most posters want to be intimidated. There does seem to be a remarkable tolerance for unnecessary abuse for several reasons (referring to the actual targets and not the onlookers who enjoy the show). Some folks have gotten the idea that this approach is linked with creativity. For some, being told in effect that their ideas are worthless takes them off the hook - they don't have to contribute any thought or study, but can depend on someone else's skills to do the job for them. And then there are people who tolerate or tune out intimidation and concentrate on garnering useful information.

The teachers who've inspired me most in school settings have been more on the Mr. Chips end of the spectrum - highly skilled in their fields, but oriented towards building up and encouraging their pupils. The crochety or borderline abusive teachers/professors I've had were generally looked upon as hurdles to get over, and not as inspirational or particularly helpful (still, I'm glad to say, none ever publicly told us our ideas were nonsense*, flew into a tantrum when contradicted, and fled the classroom, only to return in a fright wig and noseglasses :)

Thanks for your comments about the website (long dormant, thanks in part to a balky ISP). I hope to incorporate the plant database into a new site dealing with subtropical gardening sometime in the not-too-distant future.

*One classic exception was in an upper-level science class where the course director took pains at the start of the year to tell students that they should participate freely, that no questions were stupid etc. One instructor, a stern Eastern European lady was lecturing one day when a student asked an offhand question. She fixed him with a steely glare and said "THAT is the STOOOPIDEST qvestion I have EVER heard!"

So much for good intentions. ;)

Thank you too illima, if you are crediting me as the inspiration, or the kick up the ass, for your sensitive writing seen elsewhere I am flattered. Hail fellow, well met.
Perhaps the detectives could come up with a reason why one might want to have a voice without intimidation and why, if a name above a post inspires a hit, a negative response regardless of the content you might want to change that name, it was INKognito in the first place for heavens sake for the same reason. It is not fun. I wanted to be able to post without that immediate knee jerk jerk deflection.
He says that "Landscape design has never been one of my prime interests in gardening" whereas gardening has always been a major interest of mine in the designs I work on, being a gardener myself. Settle this difference off forum I hear you say. Once when he suggested that I had imbibed too much Canadian beer I did email him asking why he was so against and me 'so on' feeling free, man to man the SOB posted it here anyway.
I actually respect his input on plant knowledge and said so many times but I have no respect for him as a person nor him me.
Sure I have good intentions, there are several posts above to support that.
This is what I want, will you Eric, refrain from picking on me? I can give and take criticism of what I say which is what happens in a forum. Or will you continue to bait me for some reason not connected with that? Will you explain why you think you should stand as arbiter on a subject you are not interested in?
I am really sorry that you have had to read through this, I may speak my mind but there are those like karinl who didn't like my way of expression, nor me hers and we arrived at a mutual understanding of personalities that may be called growth. Hey, I even challenged the svelte Irish girl once and survived and when I was unwell, what do you know?
All this means is that I don't like the nit picking that Eric brings to the table when ever he sees my name and I want to share without the constant niggling. Can we do this?

Why is it that people who are extremely brilliant and creative often act mean and snobbish and so many others who are in awe of their brilliance and creativity allow them to act so because they believe that excentricity goes with the territory of a great mind?

I worked for a floral designer like this once. His creations were famous. But tell him you didn't like one, suggest he actually look at the ticket before starting the job, or even ask him what time it was at the wrong moment in his thought process and you were liable to get a florists knife thrown at you. His brilliance was an inspiration - I had hoped to learn so much. But really I couldn't handle it...

I always think the idiots are the ones who fall so easily into awe, not those who inspire it.

But... I think one problem is that we need to put someone in a place, be it a pedestal, a doghouse, or whatever the place is where one puts idiots. As a species we are not very good at taking each other as the complex human beings we are, with good qualities and bad. And when someone on a pedestal speaks rudely... we sooner justify it than face up to having to readjust the height of the pedestal.

Saypoint:

Hmm. Is it that wrong for an amateur to offer their opinion? Can't they also learn from putting their wrong opinion out there and then learning what others say? I can completely understand professional irritation at these kind of scenarios. I have similar issues on my own professional forums. However, I think there are ways to handle it well and ways to do it poorly.
In my humble opinion the best response is to speak up, with grace and honesty. Many do it here well. Some use ridicule and condescending comments. This is especially brutal when splashed on an unsuspecting newbie. Some may find this entertaining. I'm among those that don't. Frankly the people who do that, don't do their profession any favors. The amateurs that do it quickly get moved into 'ignore her posts' mode.

All that said, I have been coming here for years and keep coming back because many of the discussions are interesting and educational. Oh and I fully admit to snarking at an unsuspecting newbie on my own forums and feeling bad afterwards. There are some days you should just not post.

Speaking as an amateur--when I chip in to offer advice or commentary, I expect that input to hold up to critical review. I welcome constructive criticism and, by airing my opinions in a public forum, I believe that I invite whatever commentary comes my way. CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM--not flaming!

I'm here at the forum because there is no one in my community with whom I can discuss design ideas and because I have no outlet for my ideas about landscape design, design in general, and horticulture. I'm a quick study and, when I undertake to learn a new discipline, I get tired of becoming the most passionate and educated one in my peer group. Here, I am not the most educated or experienced and I appreciate the opportunity to learn from others--although I also realize that I've just cast you all in the role that tires me so endlessly.

Lastly, I think SOMEONE has to point out that being a "professional" in any field does not, by itself, guarantee that a high level of skill or insight is present. I'm sure that plenty of diligent but uninspired folks have put in the time to get the degree--and that's just not good enough!

"Is it that wrong for an amateur to offer their opinion?"

No, that's not what I meant at all, and I'm an amateur myself. If you read on, the very next line in my post was the point I was trying to make.

"If the goal is to spare everyone's feelings, the design will go forward, with poor results, and no one will have learned anything of value. "

I'm guessing here, but when I see a post from someone who makes it obvious that they have very little gardening experience, followed by replies from other relatively inexperienced posters congratulating them on their garden, I've noticed that the pros sometimes decline to participate in the thread at all.

The reason? I don't know, maybe the poster's problem is not interesting. Maybe it's easier to move on to the next post than to disagree with what's already been contributed to the thread. Maybe it seems the OP has already decided on (or completed) a project, and criticism, however constructively intended, doesn't seem like it's going to be helpful. Or welcome.

I've been disappointed sometimes when I would have like to read what some of the pros think about a design problem, only to find they pass by the thread altogether.

karinl: I think you are right. It's easier to just accept it. Maybe, because we feel it says something about us if we held a person in high esteem and they turn out not to be worthy of that esteem - for instance, we lack the ability to judge character. Also, we all probably have a little bit of tendency to want to schmooze with those we admire. There's probably a little bit of idiot in all of us. And a little brilliance.

I also understand the tendancy to not want to participate in discussions that start out seemingly ridiculous. On my childbirth board, if someone gets on and says "We scheduled an induction because we want better control over the labor." And some other uninformed person says, "Yeah, that's a great idea, good thinking." My first inclination is to not even join the conversation. Then, I have to resist the urge to jump on them for not doing their research better. I imagine some of the people here are as passionate about landscape design as I am about birth. It really gets under the skin to watch the discussion of two ignorant people (that's ignorant in the true sense of the word - without knowledge)congratulating eachother for dumb decisions.

Why I join discussions like I mentioned above is based on one thing: why I do what I do. I do what I do to help people. So if I can give someone information that will help them, I have to push down the tendency to treat them like they are stupid and give them the information in the nicest way possible. If a person isn't here to help joe homeowner have a better yard and garden, then why say anything? It probably is much easier to pass the conversation by.

After adamante's exposure as a sock puppet of Ink on Wednesday I wondered how long it would take before Ink or a supporter claimed that I forced him to do it - compelled him to create a false persona as an amateur in garden design and obliged him to offend multiple posters as a sock puppet in various threads (in which I did not participate) resulting in one or more complaint threads against him by other posters. The irony of course is that "adamante's" deception would have gone unnoticed awhile longer had he not been driven to complain in threads like this about how I had "insulted" him (the insult consisting of one post in which I commented that his style was similar to Ink's).

Now, instead of apologizing to forum users and the posters who stuck up for you here, you're flaunting your sock puppetry (in your newest thread).

"I have no respect for (Eric) as a person nor him me."

I reached that point when you belatedly admitted that in postings to this forum you'd faked having cancer (for what purpose? I (and maybe others) was fooled and offered you assistance by private e-mail, but I never got a response or saw any real apology for this behavior).

As I've noted that my prime interest is in gardening (and less so design) and you have indicated minimal interest in plants, our paths need not intersect much in threads here, especially airier theoretical ones, and if you can resist the temptation to denounce people for engaging in discussion of mulch or similar practical matters (or for showing a sense of humor).

In the end, I don't think my suggestions for lowering the incidence of confrontation will matter - you'll continue to seek out new targets to flame and scold, become outraged when they answer back in kind, threaten to leave, get begged to stay, and disappear (voluntarily or not) for periods of time. You obviously enjoy the drama. Regardless, it would be an excellent idea for "adamante" to steal off into the Quebec sunset and not return. Message boards frown heavily on this sort of behavior.

Don't MAKE me put on my "Mama Mel" hat.

;~)

melanie

Could we pretty please keep the discussion to landscape design? I'm getting an ulcer.

Not all ideas we consider ignorant really are. It's shocking, I know, but sometimes we ourselves are the ones who just don't get it. I generally trust the pros on this forum (and certain talented amateurs like vicki and saypoint) because they are willing to discuss ideas rather than simply cast down lightning bolts of self-righteousness from above. Even in threads where averyone has been indignantly raked over the coals for being "snarky" and rude there are interesting posts and good information to be found.

Although I've been following it with interest, I declined to enter this thread earlier for fear it would ultimately descend into the "pros versus amateurs" argument these types of posts tend to do. Happily, it does not seem to have happened, yet.

Let me offer these thoughts. I can't think of any of the professionals who frequently post here discouraging the input of the non-professionals. Rather, I find many of the comments and observations of the regular non-pros to be extremely refreshing and remarkably insightful. A degree or title or business license does not carry with it the exclusivity to design skills nor does it necessarily guarantee that the holder of such credentials possess these same skills and talents. I'd venture to say that the only thing separating some of the non-pros from the pros are those credentials and the fact they don't earn their living plying this trade - their design sense is extremely well-honed and their contributions highly valuable.

But this is not a blanket statement to cover everyone posting to this forum and not all the information/advice offered is relevent, appropriate or even sound. The crux comes when the new poster seeking advice is provided with dubious stuff and they have no way of evaluating the source or quality of suggestions given. How do they know who is skilled or not, a pro or avid amateur, or simply Joe or Joleen poster offering an unfounded opinion? How do they differentiate between valuable advice/critique or just the uninformed pat on the head supporting what may very well be a design eyesore? Obviously there is a tendency to lean towards whatever comments support their contention in the first place, as the garden is such a personalized extension of the gardener, "sound" design concepts aside (if even considered). Comments provided then by pros (or even astute non-pros) seem to be met with a double whammy - both the OP and the responders often get their back up and the defensive and cutting replies follow. What should be a helpful learning experience for all concerned degrades into a battle of personalities and a "them versus us" conflict. This seems to happen more often than not and is one of the primary reasons why I tend to avoid most of the help-me requests.

As to the lack of substance to the forum discussions over and above requests for help, they exist but perhaps not so much to the same degree as the others simply because there HAS been attrition of some of the pros and they do tend to be the ones most involved in both posting and responding to these subjects. And on a more personal note, this is rapidly ramping up to be the most active and intense period of time for my business and I simply don't have the energy or brain power left at this time of year to pay much more than lip service to ANY topic, meaty or otherwise.

And on an entirely unrelated note, I would encourage both INK and Eric to grow up, get a life and keep your petty little disagreements off the forum. They are inane and tiresome and detract from both the subjects under discussion as well as the skills both of you obviously possess and the valuable contributions you are able to make. They demean you both.

Hear, hear!

As usual, gg zooms smack to the heart of all matters.

I found this site a year ago. We had moved into a house that needed a lot of work, both inside and out. The question that I posted was a typical "help me" question. The previous owner had landscaping that many would consider to reflect the era and the architecture of the house, but seemed too sloppy for my taste. It was difficult to take over a property that had a landscape design on the exterior that I believed "fit" the house, the other owner, the neighbors admired it, but it wasn't me. The same held true for the interior. The owner had hand painted and stenciled a lot of it, I admired the work,but it was not me. I had to hire an interior decorator to give me permission to paint over the former owner's work--and I have a fine arts background! I found this site because I needed "permission" to perhaps try something different on the outside, yet that something, for me, had to be an improvement. If I had worded my question in a more interesting manner, instead of "HELP ME", I might have gotten a greater response. I did not know who the experts were on the board, as I had not lurked for weeks before I posted. I did not receive many pieces of advice, but I really appreciated and considered the advice that I did receive. It addressed exactly what I needed. Permission to "rip it all out", referrals to pertinent prior discussions that dealt with the same frustrating issues that I had (formal walkway), etc.

My quandry was about design. My questions were not well formulated or thought out, but some took the time to zoom right into the heart of it, regardless. The willingness and graciousness to overlook the naivete of a poster shows a true love for one's vocation or avocation!

Interesting thread.

When I said this is a "tough room", I meant it. It's actually one of the things I like most about it! This forum is rather specific, and its specificity lures professionals in the field of landscape design. I have been the beneficiary of very astute and considered advice when I asked about how to deal with relocating a magnificent natural fern bed if we decided to build a garage... Mich. was especially helpful and encouraging, as was msjee. Laag has also been accomodating as have others; the replies that benefitted me most were those that addressed the most basic questions and then asked ME a question, FORCING me to think about something more... and encouraging me to step back and appreciate the forest by taking my eyes off the trees.

I work in a skilled field, too. I used to post frequently on a more general forum, and know well how tiresome it is to relentlessly repeat the very same things that could be gleaned by using the search button. Since the "changeover" in January (and a deluge of "send me an e-mail" questions) I have curtailed my participation greatly. I have become miserly with what I offer (hard for me because I love my trade) relying on interesting thread titles to beckon me. It's hard to offer your hard-earned experience and honest criticism of a JOB only to be faced with an angry, hurt OP. It bothers me that my own particular "style" is often misconstrued as "abrupt", "haughty", or "snotty"; I try not to take it personally (and nearly always try to clarify any "questionable" phrasings), reminding myself that not every person works in a trade that is so inextricably tied to daily criticism and that they don't understand that criticism of WORK is simply that... criticim of work.

Had I read this quote from a long-ago post, I would have understood immediately ink's motivation in offering-up the comment about the necessity of flowers under the trees...

"Just in case any of you are wondering ... Some take umbrage at some of the Inkster's pointed questions like those earlier in this thread. He likes to provide the questions just in case you have not been asking them yourself. In other words, he is encouraging us to think about our landscape decisions. He is also often trying to extract additional information by providing a format for a poster to elaborate."

I get it now...a little slow on the draw. Actually, I always appreciated the teaching technique employed by a high school teacher who didn't tell you to do or to think something but rather asked a question which would cause you to think of the answer by yourself.

I was never angry about that question (the "grounded thread" ) but I won't mistake the technique again.

Chelone--

I have NEVER thought of your postings as snotty, haughty, or abrupt.

melanie

I posted a "help me" type of question here earlier and would like to add my two-cents worth, if I may. I am an amateur gardener, so I always try to do as much research as possible; and I considered asking for help here as part of my research. I also read gardening books, search Google and online gardening shops, and ask questions at my local garden centers. The problem is that I often get conflicting info and so, being an amateur, I try to get a variety of advice and opinions before deciding what to do.

I'm finding more and more that the info that comes with plants (info tags on plants or descriptions from online sources, or even books) does not jibe with people's actual experiences with those plants. For instance, I recently did some research on a plant I wanted to buy. The tag said "semi-shade," but an online search of gardening forums led me to believe that most people find that this plant does better in full sun. Being on a budget, I can't afford to do a lot of trial and error, and I find that real-life experiences are more accurate and valuable than mass-produced generic info tags or info given by some kid who's got a summer job working in the garden center at Lowe's and knows about as much as I do, if not less. (We live in a small town, which only has couple of sources for plants and, obviously, is woefully lacking in seasoned pros.)

So I really appreciate advice I can get from forums like this. Getting different perspectives and accounts of actual experiences really is invaluable to me. And I always do take the time to say Thanks.

Thanks!

Liz R.