The Leucothoe prefers part shade. What is the purpose of the shrub border?

The Leucothoe is also pretty tall, can be taller than the Fothergilla.

Are you screening something? Do you want flowers?

saypoint: thank you. I forgot the part-shade part for the Leucothoe - it definately won't get that! The shrub border is to give a nicer structure to the backyard. Right now, that L is a chain-link fence with views of the neighbors back-yards. We don't need privacy per say and I don't mind seeing their back-yard somewhat, which is why the deciduous shrubs are ok. But, the yard will eventually have a large oval of grass in the center and this shrub border is supposed to help the transition from harsh lines of the fence to the nice curve of the lawn.

buyorsell:The 'scarletta' is a compact version, getting about 2ft. high. Also, I love flowers but the foliage is more important to me as I can grow perennials and such for the flowers.

Here in Portland 'Scarletta' gets double that height. As does 'Rainbow' they are very common here.

My 'Blue Mist' Fothergilla is only 2' high after five years but plants do grow differently in different parts of the country for sure.

well, that gives me something to think about: what if my fothergilla don't reach their full potential and the others grow larger than expected?

I guess my first question would be whether you are doing this border purely as a functional landscape or whether it has some role as a garden.

As a plant collector and enthusiastic observer of the minutiae of plant changes through the seasons, I would get profoundly bored with that much repetition, and with shrubs in the garden (like boxwood) that provide so little action to watch. I like repetition where it has a landscape function (and boxwood where it is hedged or otherwise shaped), that is to say where it provides symmetry to a lot or a pattern of some sort within a border, but the repetition you've got sounds somewhat random to me, and thus a little purposeless. In short, if I had this much space to work with, I'd be looking for a lot more interest and variety. Now I do realize that in the Pacific Northwest I can GET a lot more variety, but still...

Also, as far as winter interest is concerned, your choices have encompassed (barring the Leucothoe) sticks and green. Maybe some of your boxwood will colour up, but you could get some variety if you used some conifers, shading to gold, bronze, blue, and even orange if you use Microbiota.

Also, for floral interest, you've got spring and that's it. I can't name every non-spring bloomer in the book, but mine range from Hamamelis in late winter to Vitex and Hibiscus in late summer, and more. I know you CAN plant perennials for flowers, but if you're putting in this many shrubs, why WOULDN'T you plan for some continuous floral interest from it?

But that's the gardener talking. If you're just landscaping, then you probably have the right idea, at least to some extent. The relative sizes of the shrubs don't quite work for me, but then I didn't prune my Physocarpus for height for a few years and it got huge; too huge for the companions you have listed here, I'd almost say. My Fothergilla Blue Mist is also still pretty small after more than 5 years; you probably will get more height, not to mention better fall colour, from the species.

Not a criticism of you AE but isn't it a bit like trying to decide what clothes to put on a baby before considering what a baby will bring to a family and what kind of home you can provide for the baby? Jo asks "what is the purpose" which is a valid question and closer to my analogy than a list of plants or a baby shower.
To start with: following the 'L' of a chain link fence with a mixed shrub border may be a mistake, a fat baby in pretty clothes is still a fat baby (as an ex fat baby I am allowed to say this). Before my baby analogy gets completely out of hand I am going to switch it to ducks and swans. In my humble opinion a sucessful mixed border has more ducks than swans ('member that janandalan?) In other words your selection has too much variety, a boring variety as karinl says, but boxwood (?) "this shrub border is supposed to help the transition from harsh lines of the fence to the nice curve of the lawn." We must assume that the fence is a fixture from this statement but do you really want your new border to be a transition and not something stronger. I know these are only words but I would suggest that 'enclosure' might be more appropriate to what you want to achieve. I also know that this type of analysis is a pain in the ass for some but making babies is easy and bringing up children is difficult: unless you have the right motivation. We can talk about it here.

Ok. Lots to think about...

karinl: I am a gardener first. I love to garden and do so for the process mostly. But, I was scared of having too many random shrubs. I am probably more what people would call a plant collector. Maybe I'm being driven here by what I think I should be doing rather than what I want to do. You are saying more variety and inkognito is saying less.

Ink: I DO want it to be strong. It will,as you said, be an enclosure - and backdrop (sorry, my words are leaving me with regard to this, which sucks because I am a writer -albeit one that needs many, many revisions before what I am actually wanting to say is finally honed out of what I have actually stated out saying). So, ducks and children... what's the point you are trying to make with that? What is my motivation? Is that the question?

The ducks and swans thing refers to having mostly plants that set the stage for the stars, or swans, which will be focal points of the composition.

I'd love to see some baby pictures, Ink. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. That might be a fun OT thread, baby pics would be a hoot.

Repeating a plant in more than one place is done to create unity and prevent the plant from becoming a focal point, unless you want it to be one. You can repeat it in another part of the garden, they don't have to be side by side, just visible at the same time.

Have you done your plan on paper? Is there a style or look you are after? Have you researched the plants that will do well on the site?

I like the Fothergilla, I planted ten of them in the front yard last year and they put on a wonderful show in the fall, and are just starting to bloom now. They were almost invisible during the winter, just a few twigs, but the fall show was worth it.

There are a lot of plants that you can use that are more interesting than the boxwood and holly, IMO, though I have both of these in my own garden, used as backdrops rather than featured plants.
Jo

Thanks saypoint for trying to explain it to me. I guess I'm a little confused about what it has to do with my shrubs. All of them were repeated, thus none would be focal points. But I guess I need even less variety? Maybe I didn't explain my intentions well enough. There will be many perennials in the bed when I'm finished. My plan was to get the shrubs in and then work on the perennials. But I guess since these shrubs are the backbone of my composition, they need to have a focal point within them?

You are right to get the shrubs in as the backbone of your border before perennials.

We are all different with what we are trying to do with our landscapes.
I don't think you have enough variety and too many that are just green like boxwood but that is my preference.

I collect plants and I have a small urban yard so I would not repeat more than three of the same plant and even when I do it, they are different varieties. I don't plant shrubs that don't have more than one season of interest. I just can't take up the space. I have twenty dwarf rhododendrons but they are all different cultivars/species. When not in bloom they look similar and provide unity. I've repeated using color of flowers and foliage too.

My neighbor has a very nice landscape on his front yard that uses about ten different plants total. That is what he likes and it is done well and looks good.

Both the Leucothe and Fothergilla are great shrubs. I have Spirea 'Magic Carpet' and 'Limemound' but am not familiar with 'Van Houttei'. I'm not familiar with the ninebark. To me, boxwood is for formal hedges not shurb borders but many people like it. If you like it, plant it!

My concern with your plan is that I don't see much in height variation between the back row and the front row and I'd rather see the very back row all evergreens of different heights, textures and colors and see most of the deciduous shrubs in front of them. Again, that is just my preference. I'd want to hide the chain link fence. Which is what I think the fat baby in pretty clothes analogy was about. :)

ae, I was just pointing out the reason for repetition, which you have indeed provided for. It doesn't seem like there will be much going on in winter except for the big boxwood on the end, a couple in the middle row, and the front row of boxwood or holly, which will look very similar.
Also, the fence will not be hidden, which may not be important to you.

To identify the existing large shrub, boxwood has opposite leaves, holly has alternate leaves.

Yeah, I have been thinking about that winter thing: asking myself, do I care? I don't really go in my backyard during winter. The kids play back there if it snows but mostly we just stay inside. But I also think I would love it if the view out my back yard were a little more appealing and that would mean not seeing the fence.

Thanks for telling me how to identify the big shrub I have. I really like it even though it is essentially a big ball. Maybe because it sits next to a large, cone-shaped holly and the two grow into eachother and form a pleasing arrangement. I'm going to continue to think about this... sometimes I just don't know where to start. Thus the reason I started the thread about the right questions.

Sounds like you have a bunch of things to still think through before you can make decisions, but I think the bottom line is, are you trying to make a hedge or a shrub border? So far you are using hedging plants in a border arrangement, and it's not really working for anyone.

You might make a hedge against the fence, with a more colourful shrub border in front of it...

karinl: Good question: am I making a hedge or a shrub border? The more I think about my arrangement, the more it's not working for me. I like the idea of a hedge with more colorful shrub border in front of it.

I really love the way everyone here asks the tough questions to get a person to think about what they are doing. I will continue to think about it.

Thanks for the tip on identification...looks like the 30 or so "boxwoods" at my new house are actually Japanese hollies. That is actually good news because I was feeling guilty thinking that I was going to be ripping out a bunch of expensive clipped boxwoods.

Back on topic...About two years ago I planted some shrubs along my back fence. From the experience I learned that I did not like shrubs in rows. Even though they are staggered by a foot or so in the row, they still look like rows. I also planted a row of deciduous shrubs in the back with some evergreens in the front. The evergreen shurbs seems a little out of place in the winter with the void between them and the fence.

If I was starting again from scratch, I would use evergreens along the fence and not put them in a row. If I was not selling the house I would dig up one of the 4 Viburnums along the fence and move it forward.

I found this picture from last summer. The Mugo Pine (front right) died on me and I planted some ornamental grass over there. Last fall I planted 3 Thuja "Green Giant" trees behind the fence.

{{gwi:27134}}

- Brent

Hey Brent, can we use your picture for an exercise. I don't mean step ups on the little bench more like something that may move this discussion to another level?

Ummm...sure...you only have nice things to say...right? ;-) I could start another post if this is not related to amateur_expert's question. I have actually learned a lot from putting together this planting area, but I am always up for learning more. A decent bench was on my "to do" list for this year.

For the record, here are the plants in this bed:
1 x Crape Myrtle 'Sioux'
4 x Miscanthus sinensis 'Purpurascens' (small, by the CM)
2 x Miscanthus sinensis 'Adagio' (not shown)
4 x Viburnum x Juddii
3 x Pieris japonica 'Mountain Fire'
3 x Peony (5 planted...3 survived...all mislabeled, behind the bench)
5 x Daylily 'Strawberry Candy'
1 x Hosta 'Knockout'
3 x Thuja 'Green Giant' (not shown)

- Brent

Hey - I don't mind you highjacking my thread! I'm here to learn also.

Not sure if this is a nod or a wink but if a hijack is uncool we could do it elsewhere and start another thread, I am just trying to be polite. I see some similarities with the amateur's question and the situation you show although she does come on a bit strong. I have some observations we could talk about but only if it will be constructive. This is not Billy Graham over here.

Do you have a later photo, Brent, or some seasonal shots? Juddii is deciduous, I think, so winter - well, I suppose you have snow, but still - would look a little different?

Sounds like you are free to proceed.

I am curious what you have to say. I know that I have recommend to others that they plant a mixed border of shrubs, small trees and perennials. This is my attempt and I think it will look pretty decent once the plants fill in a bit more. This was before my Hayward inspired "gotta be engaging" kick.

Another lesson that I learned here deals with plant sizes. At first I was going to order a bunch of cheap 1 gallon shrubs via mail order. That fell through and I purchased most the shrubs locally in #3 or larger sizes. Even shrubs that look pretty big at the nursery look pretty small when spaced 8' apart.

- Brent

Hey inkognito... what does that mean: "she does come on a bit strong" ?? It sounds like an insult, although I am more inclined to take it as a compliment ;)

Please, please, go ahead and highjack the thread! Totally serious!

I am obviously not telling you anything about yourself that you don't already know ap and mine was neither insult nor compliment. On another thread there is some talk about 'form' and it being the lap dog of 'function'. 'Form' can also mean shape and what struck me about the photo, note that this sets its time and place precisely so that should be taken into account, is the difference between the forms inside the fence and those just outside it. Perhaps I am also coming on strong but, reference the original post, it is necessary to have a complete enclosure if that is the plan. Otherwise the surroundings have to be taken into account. Should Brent borrow or block the view?

My #1 suggestion to amateur expert is to make sure you've taken into account the mature sizes of whatever shrubs you choose when planning the border. As someone else mentioned, Physocarpus 'Diablo' (an excellent shrub with multiseason interest) does get big if not continually trimmed back (mine is about 4 x 4 feet and still has some growing to do).

Providing some screening from the neighbors and the chain link fence, as well as growing coveted plants seem like worthy goals. Once you have a list of candidates that are compatible in terms of soil and sun exposure needs, you can further narrow it down based on desired season(s) of interest, pruning requirements (are you going to be able to get to that hedge behind the shrubs to manicure it, or will an informal look be OK) etc.

The practical limit on how much variation you'll have in that border is size - you won't be able to squeeze too much into that space considering you want a hedge, shrubs and perennials as well.
I'd sacrifice repetition to interesting contrast and variation, given the available space and the plan for a "unifying" hedge.

ae, if it makes you feel any better, I don't know what Ink is talking about either. I haven't seen you post anything that sounded like "coming on strong". Quite the opposite.

Should I borrow or block the view? I think that the answer is that I obviously should borrow as much of the view as possible. The mature trees in the neighborhood are a huge selling feature and part of the reason that we purchased this house.

This planting area used to be filled with out of control running bamboo along with a Pin Oak that blew down during hurricane Isabelle. I debated a little about what to plant in the void behind the fence. I would have liked to plant a couple deciduous trees that would have tied in better with the surrounding view. I decided on the evergreens because there is a house back there and many of the trees are on their property (towards the right there are more trees on my property and the community owned common ground). There is also a path right on the other side of that retaining wall.

BTW...I snapped a few pictures today and uploaded them to my flickr account. I thought about a quizzing the group to see if anybody could pick out the rather major change since the previous picture, but figured that it would be too hard to pick out. The neighbor recently had the fenced moved about 5' so that it was on the property line.

{{gwi:27135}}

- Brent

Ink: I can call you that, right, since you called me "the amateur." My name is Christine, by the way, nice to meet you. It's hard to offend me so if you were losing sleep over it, don't worry : )

saypoint: thank you - you are very generous. I know I can seem to come on stong in black and white on the cold computer screen. Then again, I seem to come on strong sometimes in life - don't we all? But, whether coming on strong is beautiful or not - the eyes of the beholder, right. In any case, Anyone reading this can assume that I NEVER mean to be mean, insulting, arrogant, rude, or anything like that. In general, I try to get along with everybody.

I'm glad the point about using the view was brought up. While I was revising my plans for my shrub border, I was doing a perspective drawing - as I read somewhere they are helpful. Well, I thought the perspective I drew looked really good... but I did not draw or even factor in the mature trees in my one neighbor's yard and the shed in another's.

I love the view behind brent's yard and I would definately borrow it. In fact, I would try to make my property look as though it was part of that - so that, from the perspective from which the original picture was taken, you couldn't really tell that my property ended abruptly at a fence but rather it appeared as one seemless whole.

I seemed to have rubbed some people up the wrong way with my unskillful observation of Christine's style which is shakey ground from which to offer cticism, so I will bow out with apologies.

Now, now, Ink, don't run away. I certainly haven't been rubbed up, the wrong way or otherwise, so if by "some people" you include me, no need for apologies. I just didn't read anything into Christine's posts that sounded "strong". One of the pitfalls of posting on the forums is that there is no body language, tone of voice, or facial expression to give us cues to someone's intentions. I just didn't understand what you read that would cause you to comment on it, but I do try to be generous when reading posts and always assume that nothing ugly is meant when something can be taken more than one way. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

O.K then. Moving on. I live in a a totally agricultural area. Across the road to the North the environment has been sacrificed to genetically modified and chemically boosted 'food' production. Hedgerows have been mutilated or eliminated. At the other side there is a polluted river that looks fressh after rain and that the willows on my bit over hang. The farmer to the east has a fence made from whatever bits and pieces he feels do the job. The other side was once part of this property and is owned by someone who doesn't live there and is neglected.
Where does this fit in with Brent's situation? I hope I painted a picture vivid enough to explain that I want my "small acre" to stand apart from the way farmers treat our land. To do this, in my spare time, I want to emphasise the view I like and block out as best I can the other. This means that I draw the willow banked river in and reject the fertilised, herbiciced or round-upped.
Brent has a fence (two different fences actually)where one is not required aesthetically as the woodland up behind is very attractive. Then the forms of the shrubs further establishes a separation from the more natural forms of the woodland.
This is the basis of what I think would be worthwhile to talk about.

Emphasize the view you like and block out the others as best you can. Sounds like grand advice. I think that is probably the problem with most of us trying to design in our cookie-cutter-house neighborhoods - everyone is looking at their own property as if it existed in a vacuum and there were nothing outside the boundaries to "use."

Going back to brent's situation, he has at least one view that is great and should be capitalized on. I said behind his yard but that might be beside. Anyway, it is the one with the woodland in the background which is, I agree with Ink, very attractive. Thus my comment that if it were me I would try to make my yard seem to be part of that woodland behind.

But - and this goes into the fuzzy world of the two f-words, form and function, that are so philisophically being discussed on another thread - brent hasn't really told us what sort of garden he is going for. Obviously, if he doesn't like the "woodland" look, then he might not like to make his garden seem part of that. However, if he likes the view, it would follow that he might not mind the woodland-type garden on his property - am I right or wrong, brent?

If I recall, there is a "common area" behind Brent's house with a walk, and I suspect the fence was installed by the developer. The board fence is the neighbor's, resulting in two different fences.

So, the fence at the back creates a division between his yard and the woodland that is difficult to ignore. I wonder if a gate in this fence, even if it's kept closed at all times, would make the woodland feel more connected to the interior yard? That might make a woodland-style garden on the inside seem more fitting, and plantings that appear to cross the fence could lead the eye out past it.

I would probably plant a fairly dense mixed shrub border, maybe leaning heavily toward native plants, or at least those that don't look too "tended", to hide the neighbor's board fence, assuming the kiddies playspace wasn't needed or could be relocated.

There must be something about this picture. One of my first questions to this forum was about my plans for this area. I got two or three responses. Looking back, I understand why my query did not generate many responses. Last year I posted this picture in a general thread about benches and perimeter gardens and generated a number of responses. Now once again this picture has prompted some responses.

The privacy fence on the left belongs to my neighbor. My wife and I built the 4' fence with the primary "function" of containing our dog. The impact of fences on a garden space is a topic worthy of its own thread. I have learned to appreciate the fence for a number of reasons: it provides a level of continuity to my landscape, it provides a backdrop for plants, it gives a sense of enclosure, and it defines the area of my yard that I maintain..hostas on this side...poison ivy on that side.

I struggled with trying to unite the right and left side of my back yard. The right side has several 50'+ trees with a mature Magnolia where the left side was a big void. I figured that what ever I did would not balance these areas out for the next 20 years.

I have probably rambled on enough about my garden. Hopefully this house will soon be sold and I will have a few dollars to spend on my current landscape. The view here is not so picturesque. My challenge will be in transforming a lawn surrounded by too many deciduous trees planted in straight lines into an engaging landscape. Stay tuned.

- Brent