So how do you know that out of the millions of things that change in your life every week that it is the Omega-3?

Brendan, YOU want the evidences not ME.
So I am not going to do the search for you.

Also even if steroids creams have clinical trials I do not want to use them.

You made the claim that it works, you need to back up that claim, If you want me to link to medical sites that say it doesn't I will happily do that. As it stands I have spend hours (probably more than one hundred) looking and I've not found a shred of evidence. I am asking you to withdraw your claim or to provide the evidence that you claim is readily available, I don't think that is unreasonable.

I just said that it works because I and my friends use it with a good result.
Those who are interested in Psoriaten can read the part of e-mail which I've received today from DHU company.

"Unfortunately, DHU products are not being distributed online or by a representative in New Zealand. Thank you very much for your understanding.

For ordering DHU products or to get informational feedback, you may contact, however, an international pharmacy in your country. These pharmacies are normally importing drugs for individuals and doctors from all over the world and will give you all information requested.

For your information, please find below the contact details of an international pharmacy in Hamburg. It is familiar with the procedure to deal with an order from abroad.

Internationale Apotheke email: Internationale_Apotheke@hotmail.com
Ballindam 37 phone: +49 (0) 40 30 96 06 44
20095 Hamburg fax: +49 (0) 40 30 96 06 33
Germany

The amount of delivery costs depends on the agreed mode of dispatch. We hope this will be of help for you.

Please do not hesitate to contact us, in case of any further questions. We are always pleased to help.

Best regards from Karlsruhe,

i. A. Naomi Krasucka
International Business Department"

Brendan, all I am saying is that for "sufferers of psoriasis" it may be worth a try to use omega 3's for awhile to see if it makes a difference. I had exhausted my specialist's Rx choices I felt I had to try something else. I started out with one capsule and kept increasing til I now take 4 a day which seems to keep the condition under control. May not work for anyone else in this entire wide world, but it works for me. The reason I believe this is that when I do not take them for awhile I have a recurrence and when I again take them the condition again clears. Good enough for me altho to you it may not be a scientific double-blind study. Sometimes those don't seem so important when results are what we need and obtain.

Double blind studies are there to let us know where the results are coming from, so we know what to recommend to people so that they can get the same results. The entire reason for them is to isolate a variable, at any point in time a whole bunch of things change in your life, and you can't be sure that any one thing is the cause until you do a study.

What is it about double blinded studies that makes people think that they would hide a true effect?

We get a lot of "Supplement/herb/drug XYZ (which don't work or haven't been shown to work for most people) helped me - go out and buy it and see for yourself". If you listed every substance ever recommended on the basis of anecdote in this forum for, say, arthritis, geographic tongue or psoriasis, you'd need a second job just to pay to try all of them.

This may work for others, doesn't work for me. I like having solid evidence for something before shelling out my hard-earned money.

The extracted oil from the Neem tree seed is used in Indian folk medicine, to this day for among other things, for skin afflictions. Readers who suffer without relief may want to investigate Neem.
Lest I be assailed by post: it is for relief of some peoples symptoms, is not permanently curative & the traditional degree of placebo effect is certainly possible.
Arguments of proof verses empirical evidence are becoming more nuanced
with new understanding of human genetic variation. Pharmacological ideal now is : the right drug/"herb", at the right dose, at the right time for the right person.

That ideal is true (herbs that work are drugs by the definition used in medical science). However that understanding has to be applied to a drug and studied, it cannot just be assumed.

For looking ahead at an expected criticism and using evidence to make the case that the criticism is unneeded, that is a very respectable thing to do.

Recalling the old Materia Medicas I've seen, they were largely plant based. Obviously some successful treatments occurred that were not placebo.
Why the modern response to the gamut of herbal therapy is, now a days, so marginal for westerners intrigues me.
I've journeyed to shamans, curanderos, traditional practitioners & indigenous
doctors in their own setting worldwide. The healing context, a socio-cultural belief system, seemed as crucial as the content of what they employed; although usually some plant figured in the equation (not always ingested).
Current USA diagnostic focus has the child population rife with attention deficit, autism & allergies to nuts. I never saw that in other countries, or when I was a gringo tyke. This seems like an example of a new construction of our medical priesthood in cooperation with parents as adherents.
I work with Haitians who regularly confound my scientific thinking with superstitious beliefs. Yet their recuperative ability using folk therapies have impressed me.
It is possible the "Voodoo" mind can be summarized as a mass hypnotic state, in which supposed limitations are overcome. Western history also has incidents of mass behavior quirks.
Strident belief in current modern medical infallibility is untenable. Published drug studies sometime show the placebo works, essentially, as good as the pharmaceutical drug.
Decades ago, in an African clinic, we kept red colored sugar pills on a top shelf for desperate patients who just knew they needed western treatment
above all other.
Today, across America, countless drugs & herbs are prescribed for symptoms the patients' genetic peculiarities may not respond to , or which their mind irregardless may.

Pharmaceuticals are always tested against placebo's (every single drug, tested in thousands of people) and if they are no better they are not legal to prescribe (straight placebo's are, but the pharmacologically active drugs have powerful effects and we like to avoid side effects, the notable exception to this is homeopathy, which is just a pure placebo but grandfathered in to be sold as a pharmaceutical). Much of what results in the medical benefit from traditional medical systems is the attention that you get from the medical person, rather than paying money for treatments that don't work and money for the attention of a healer you can spend your money on just the attention or the attention and if one exists a treatment that does work.

Autism rates have spiked, strangely enough they rose at exactly the same rate as the new far more lax qualifications were adopted more widely, its almost as if they didn't rise at all, because really they didn't rise much if at all. ADD has risen and Alergies as well, the Alergies do not rise with adoption of western medicine but rather with the rise of sterile environments, no other medical system known to man can claim to know nearly as much about the relationship between humans and our microfauna as the western system and no system known to man does anything that works to prop up these symbiots outside of the western system.

I just think we should focus on how well something works for the drug end, and the other problems associated with medicine should be dealt with one at a time, just because one thing might not work (doctor patient relationships, or billing issues) doesn't mean that giving up the drugs that literally doubled our lifespans is going to fix them.

Good greif, What was that you said brendon. Pharmaceuticals are always tested. My! My! You
are always so wrong!

What about Zyprexa. It was pushed big time by Lilly for use in Children and the elderly for depression (tho mainly to keep them drugged and shut up) It was completely untested for the elderly and children. After uncounted side effects including death by heart attacks, Lilly was sued for billions and lost. SUED MOSTLY BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR MEDICARE. Criminal charges were also thrown in for good measure.
That dear brendon and eric are your great Western medicine. And i honestly beleive there will be more and more revelations about how sick this system really is. Untill it is cleaned up BY DISENTRESTED people i'll stick to herbs. It is proving to be much safer.
For whoever told brendon to google for himself. He actually does'nt have a clue how to google.But i still would'nt look anything up for him. Cause he also don't know how to read very well.LOL and eric is so full of himself he don't associate with us mere mortals. except to puff himself up. I doubt he has anything to do with the medical field.
Calandula sounds like a good choice to me
Esp since the people in the know here seem to think it is good.Read over the posts here and decide who has good sense and who don't

I was talking about testing for efficacy, if you can show me one drug approved in the last 23 years that was approved with out being shown to be efficacious I will happily withdraw my statement. What you are talking about is contraindications not being found. For any given drug there are a million possibly contraindications, and if we took the time to do the studies to find them all more people would suffer and die than suffer and die from unforeseen side effects, this doesn't mean that there aren't some bad ones, and that mistakes are not made, I accept that we live in the real world and no matter what mistakes will be made and people will die.

Whjo are these disinterested people? Are they people Like Eric and I who stand to make 0 dollars and 0 cents off of the success of the drug companies? Or are you talking about people who don;t know or care about the system, who will make random and arbitrary decisions? Are you asking us not to use reason and interest?

Would you google it for me? I think I can google just fine, every time in the past that you have told me to google I've come back with quotes from reputable sources that disagree with you and invalidate your argument, in fact every time you have come back from google at my request you have posted things that disagree with you and invalidate your argument.

I would encourage everyone to look at evidence, statistics that have been generated off of large populations, rather than taking anything on authority of a living person or a person who has been dead for thousands of years.

What is seldom addressed in these ranting conversations about herbal (natural based) medicine VS. allopathic (pharmaceutical based) are dietary deficiencies. For years the allopathic system would not recognize the need for vitamin supplements of any type. More recently they are advising the benefits of a number of supplements. I live in a northerly climate and we are now told we cannot get enough vitamin D from the low level of sunlight here or from diet alone so daily supplements are recommended. The scientific community is finding this vitamin necessary for health and now admitting lack of it is responsible for many conditions. It's kind of like when limes were found to prevent scurvy.

I think this recognition is now happening with omega 3 oils. I also believe one's dietary needs may be related to one's genetics. Since all of my ancestors were from northern Europe and likely ate a fish based diet it may be that my body requires those oils.

I am personally acquainted with several people who have had very good results with adding omega 3 supplements to their diets. Since my skin had become very thin as a result of using corticoid ointments and they were of marginal benefit anyhow I really could not continue using them. The next step of taking heavy duty drugs to try and control my immune response was not a road I wanted to go down. Way too many known side effects there.

Sometimes it's necessary to be pro-active in one's health care and sensibly try relatively harmless natural products in the hope they will help.

For those of you who want to tell everyone that herbals don't work I suggest you walk a mile in the shoes of those of us who have tried allopathic medicine and found it sadly wanting. If I had the dollars back of every prescription that didn't work as advertised or that produced side effects worse than the condition it was supposed to cure I'd be rolling in clover. Or every time an allopathic doctor told me that I "shouldn't have had that side effect from a particular drug" WTH??? with that, every side effect I've ever had was well known which I found out later when I read the blue book.

I recommend others use herbals or supplements with caution and after doing some research but I believe they can be very useful in maintaining health. Unfortunately the pharma based allopathic system is slow in recognizing this altho occasionally there is a glimmer of hope.

Recognizing and eliminating vitamin deficiency diseases has been a success story of mainstream ("allopathic") medicine, not homeopathic or other alternative practitioners.
For example, you cite the example of scurvy. Scurvy was conquered largely through the efforts of Dr. James Lind, who was formally trained in medicine in Britain and made the observations and experiments that led to scurvy's elimination while serving as a naval surgeon.

What we've been seeing in recent years are claims that if a moderate amount of vitamin intake is good, megadosing must be even better. Sometimes reports of benefits through increased vitamin and supplement intake have come through recognized research channels, more often by word of mouth and anecdote via supplement dealers and alt med advocates. The initial promise doesn't always pan out (for instance, the SELECT study of 35,000 men was cut short after 5 1/2 years because it found that not only didn't vitamin E and selenium supplementation reduce prostate cancer risk, vitamin E supplementation alone might even elevate that risk).

Medical practice changes and adapts over time as new and better information becomes available. It's unfortunate that many alt med advocates, especially those who see their role as being antagonistic (rather than complementary to) mainstream medicine, are very reluctant to drop ineffective remedies that they've previously adopted.

"For those of you who want to tell everyone that herbals don't work I suggest you walk a mile in the shoes of those of us who have tried allopathic medicine and found it sadly wanting."

First, no one here makes blanket statements that "herbals don't work". The second part of your statement assumes that no one who supports evidence-based medicine ever gets sick or suffers from debilitating or potentially fatal disorders for which outright cures are not yet available (or have friends and relatives who have such conditions). We also experience frustrations involving health care. It doesn't lead to outright rejection of science in favor of folklore and anecdote.
For my part, I (and many others here as well) try to partake of herbs wisely, know their benefits and limitations, and in general use the best available medicine (without regard to competing philosophies).

The entire concept of vitamins came from the western medical system (James Lind, who conducted the first ever clinical trial, the foundation and the gold standard of modern medicine), so I don't buy that story. The medical community follows the trials, if the clinical trails say Vit D helps Vit D is prescribed, if not then it is not. As it turns out if you are white your ancestors already came from an area with low sunlight and evolved to be able to metabolize enough vit D in the scant light available when bundled head to toe (that's quite literally why you are white, if you are ... oh, just read to the norther europe part)

If Omega 3's turn out in the literature we will know that they are a good idea, if they do not then we will know that they are not, its not our approach to life its what happens when we test reality that guides us.

its even better to test those things in clinical trials and see if they pan out, and not risk wasting money or effort or preventing someone from reaching a solution that is likely to help the problem.

Medicine cannot fix all of our problems yet, perhaps it never will, but substituting things that don't work for things that might work is not a good idea, and no one that I know who knows anything about medicine has said that herbs don't work. They have their place, but they are not always the right choice. Most side effects are rare, but they do exist, part of why we purify herbs is to reduce the stray compounds that cause stray side effects.

Not cool.

Since Jan. 6, 2009 post "Psoriasis-natural lotion for relief" morphed into a methodology discussion this link ideally will give more opinions an airing - the replies already there are interesting reading too.
Following is my comment, inspired by the others.
Reviewing medical anthropology leaves me in doubt that the plethora of pharmacy drugs are the main reason for current life span.
Working in underdeveloped regions left me with the impression that less death from disease through improved sanitation (clean water, human waste control, uncontaminated food) & the resultant proportionate increase in child survival significantly boost the average.
The utility of anti-biotics ( often fungii originally) in preventing infection promoting death is also a big factor raising the adult survival %.
Geriatric population in the west seems to be mixed between naturally robust
& those with genuinely poor quality of life. "Bionic" adults, with surgically altered parts, is obviously another reality.
It always surprises me how many Haitians tell me of their grand parent, in the 80's & 90"s, living out in the country side being active. (An arthritic Daniel Boone in his 80's apparently slept rough & hunted game in the wilderness.)
The modern sterile environment, mentioned by B.o/B, is a very astute observation regarding auto-immunity. I, personally, would like to see more discussion of this & how it may relate to variable efficacy of herbs.
Analysis for asserting a clinical diagnosis is by no means perfected & scientific crucial points seem to still be shifting (ex.: inflammation has focus
more now than cholesterol as primary coronary risk factor & the American Heart Association's low fat "healthy" heart diet is out performed by the old traditional Mediterranean's diet).

Those things were inspired by germ theory, a western medical theory, which came to be accepted through evidence based trials.

I'm not sure what you mean by the impacts of sterility on the efficacy of herbs?

We have roughly 100 compounds made by microorganisms floating through our blood streams.

"Working in underdeveloped regions left me with the impression that less death from disease through improved sanitation (clean water, human waste control, uncontaminated food) & the resultant proportionate increase in child survival significantly boost the average."

Let's not forget vaccination, which has dramatically reduced deaths from (for example) polio.

No doubt there are tradeoffs involved in living in a modern industrialized country. Higher living standards lead to increased obesity and cardiovascular disease. Cancer claims more people because they are living markedly longer life spans and don't die young from infection, trauma and malnutrition.

It's nice that some Haitians recall older relatives leading active lives (not that we don't have plenty of older Americans doing the same). For much of Haiti's history living into one's 80s and 90s has been an unusual exception.

"Reviewing medical anthropology leaves me in doubt that the plethora of pharmacy drugs are the main reason for current life span...The utility of anti-biotics ( often fungii originally) in preventing infection promoting death is also a big factor raising the adult survival %"

Don't you think there's a contradiction inherent in these two statements?

Thank you to everyone who gave useful information. Can i ask a simple question? Why do Brendon of bonsai and Eric-Oh keeps cutting in with medical information? Id really prefer they did'nt post to any of my questions as i'm looking for herbal advise and not medical advise. I'm not even intrested in it as i have my own doctor. So please don't post on any question of mine as your advise is not welcome. Thank you

Gringojay, How intresting you lived among Haitians. I've heard they use a lot of herbs. You seem to have comman sense so i appreciate your advise. I did want to make a comment on modern cleanliness as i know it started with Jewish people thousands of years ago.

Luckygal and Artulip, thanks for the info on omega3 oils i will look it up but think i'll stick with calunda first. I did want to ask though ,if they have a German website?
About those medical people and Oakleif, may i suggest you ignore them like i do, When i see their names i scroll down to the next post and stay ignorantly happy.
Thank you again for the information.
Janet

This forum is for the discussion of herbalism, the use of herbs for medicinal purposes.

Ignorance is bliss, for the ignorant one, it creates real problems for everyone else.

"Can i ask a simple question? Why do Brendon of bonsai and Eric-Oh keeps cutting in with medical information? Id really prefer they did'nt post to any of my questions as i'm looking for herbal advise and not medical advise."

Earlier you thanked me for providing information (I posted on the possibility of using curcumin for psoriasis, and linked to a site that covered a variety of plant-based options including oatmeal, aloe vera and other botanical products).

A lot of people would also consider it useful to hear about botanicals and other, non-herbal remedies that don't work and are not worth wasting time and money on (such as homeopathic "liniments"). My comments are for everyone who reads the thread, not just you. Feel free to ignore them if you wish.

Eric, Did'nt you say this person liked your advise? I have'nt heard anyone that seems to appreciate your advise. Why don't you find a suitable medical forum to go to and quit bothering all these people who are intrested in herbs. I can't think of a single soul that has shown any intrest in you or your medical advise.
Id love for someone to speak up in your defence except Brendon of course as he shares your hatred for herbalists.

Would sunflower oil be good to use with
calandula?

I'm with guana,please don't respond to any of my threads bren and eric. Of course you two are the only ones on here that would intrude where you are not wanted and of course you two have the only right to intrude in your eyes.
I love it!! Have to look and see if anyone else has told you two to butt out.

You should try to read more carefully Oakleif"Thank you Fatamorgana,drjs, and eric_oh."

Your request for free reign to say whatever you want unopposed in an open forum has been noted.

"Pine Tar Soap has traditionally been found to soothe eczema and psoriasis, dandruff scalp and other frustrating skin conditions."

My mother had psoriasis, and when I googled alternative cures I found black tar soap. I picked some up at the local health food store (approx $2 a bar) and brought it home. Within a few weeks she had no issues, and hasn't since.

I like black tar soap on my hair/scalp, usually will use it once a month. It's a good "deep cleaner". I also like it on my face. It feels very clean after use.

What I like most is that by using the plants at their source, rather than synthetic derivatives, a lot of side effects are avoided. Google psoriasis for a bunch of western medicines that are effective as well, but have shocking side effects. Only side effect of black tar soap is a faint scent of pine. IMO, go natural first!!

If you google "tar soap psoriasis" you'll find that it's been used in the mainstream treatment of psoriasis for about a hundred years. The American Academy of Dermatology lists it as one of the FDA-approved topical treatments for mild to moderate psoriasis.

More info on tar soaps from the National Psoriasis Foundation.

Both coal tar and pine tar soaps are ultimately plant-based, so could be regarded as a form of herbal therapy. They are not without potential side effects (mainly skin reddening/irritation).

Eric...
Does it have to be considered "mainstream" in order for it to work? Are you against herbal therapies? I could be misinterpreting your post, but you seem a little know-it-all and antagonistic. Do we need the FDA to tell us something works? (and I'm not against the FDA, I just don't always think they have our best interests at heart) People were using salicylic acid (the basis of aspirin) since Hippocrates time. Yes, popping a little white pill is more convenient now... as is hopping in a car and typing this rather than beating on a drum. That doesn't mean the past methods were not effective. ALL of our modern day drugs are based on plants. Now they are chemically based and enhanced, modified and regulated. One could say that ALL medicine is herbal therapy. And so what? Herbs and herbal remedies are critical to health and well being. And I, for one, would rather seek them at the source when possible rather than ingesting chemically enhanced, lab created versions.

Yes, you are right. COAL TAR may cause "mild" skin irritation, but I was talking about PINE TAR. There is a difference, and preparation methods also can alter the outcome of product (smell, irritation). Also, coal tar may cause cancer... which is why I recommended to the OP and purchased for my mother the PINE TAR.

Taken directly from your link to the National Psoriasis Foundation:

"Tar is derived from coal, wood and pine. However, coal tar is the type most commonly used to treat psoriasis. Pine tar, derived from pine trees, is a vegetable-based alternative to coal tar. It is a natural moisturizer with cleansing and antiseptic properties. Tar can help slow down the rapid growth of skin cells and also help reduce redness, itching and scaling. Coal tar is an ingredient approved by the FDA in OTC concentrations of 0.5% to 5% specifically for the treatment of psoriasis. More information about tar as a treatment for psoriasis is available in the National Psoriasis Foundation's educational booklets Topical Treatments for Psoriasis and Scalp Psoriasis. Some of the products listed may not be available in California due to guidelines regarding labeling of tar products in that state."

"Side effects of using tar
Tar can irritate and redden the skin. Test a tar product on a small area of the skin first. If reddening occurs, try applying the tar on top of a moisturizer. Or, have a pharmacist mix 5%, 10% or 20% Liquor Carbonis Detergens (LCD), a prescription coal tar, with Aquaphor, an OTC moisturizing agent.

It may be more difficult to find OTC tar medications in California, due to state guidelines regarding tar products. As of January 2002, California requires OTC coal tar shampoos, lotions and creams that contain more than 0.5% coal tar to be labeled with cancer warnings. As a result, some companies have stopped selling their products in California or replaced coal tar with another active ingredient. However, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) maintains that OTC products with coal tar concentrations between 0.5% and 5% are safe and effective for psoriasis and that no scientific evidence suggests that the coal tar in OTC products is carcinogenic.

Studies show some of the chemicals in coal tar may cause cancer, but only in very high concentrations, such as in coal tar used in industrial paving. Anyone using tar regularly should be aware of the signs of skin cancer and have a dermatologist recommend a skin cancer checkup schedule. "

Wood tars suck too. Coal is just plants that have been baked under high heat and pressure over several thousand years. You can jump up and down about how bad coal tar is all day but that doesn't mean that Pine tar is a side effect free alternative. Having made and worked with wood tar (a wooden boat in Kodiak) I can tell you that it is not pleasant stuff.

Sorry you misinterpreted my post.

You were citing tar soap as an "alternative cure". As I noted, it's not. That shouldn't discourage someone from using it, of course. I think we should consider using all effective remedies, whether or not they're stereotyped as "mainstream" or "alternative", don't you?

Pine tar products may irritate the skin as well as coal tar products. More info available here.

I found an interesting remedy in my local drugstore (Rite Aide) which appears to be helpful.

It is called Flexitol Naturals Eczema & Psoriasis Cream, "natural homeopathic alternative". It comes in a little box and is about half the size of a small tube of toothpaste. Active ingredients are listed as being borax, Graphites,Kalium Sulphuricum, and Natrum Muriaticum--all homeopathic, and not really replicable safely, as some h. remedies are poisonous in larger quantities.

Inactive ingredients include water, a form of alcohol, parafin, zinc oxide, Lavender oil, Avocado oil, Chamomil oil, Licorice extract, a form of urea, Evening Primrose oil, tocopherol acetate, and aloe Vera gel, along with a couple of other unpronounceable ingredients I can't quite figure out because of the small print.

By the time you accumulated all of the ingredients, I suspect you would have been better off purchasing the cream. Among its other attributes, it dries to flesh color on white skin and has a mildly pleasant smell, to me, at least. I think the 2 oz tube cost about $9; maybe they have a larger size that would be more economical.

The inactive ingredients might be helpful. True homeopathic ingredients would be inert at the extreme dilutions typically used.

The homeopathic remedies are listed as being toxic in large quantities but really its whatever they put them in. James Randi used to do a talk where he would read the warning labels off of a homeopathic sleep medicine (if you take more than four contact poison control) and proceed to take something like 72 of them, the are made of lactose and taste awful apparently.

Hi Eric,
I don't think I misinterpreted your post. I was saying Pine Tar soap is an alternative to using medications. Since you're being pedantic about definitions, alternative may both mean "in place of" and "pertaining to unconventional choices". I meant it in the most simplistic terms.

I do think all options, whatever label one chooses to slap on them, should be considered. The OP was asking for "Natural lotion for Relief". I gave an option that was not yet mentioned. I cited one reason that was appealing to me was that it is made of natural ingredients.

Brendan,
I hardly think I'm jumping up and down, but I understand what you are saying. Yes, tar, or the sticky sap that comes out of trees, is not pleasant. But it is natural. The OP was asking for natural relief.

I also understand what coal is, and the difference between the two. The difference is also recognized by the FDA.

I'm specifying the difference because coal tar, not pine tar, has been recognized as being cancer causing. Yes, so is charbroiling anything... so "cancer-causing" does not mean one will drop dead after holding a bar of the coal soap. I'm clarifying, since obviously my mention of this product is being over-analyzed.

I would expect anyone receiving advice on this forum would do research on their own before trying something out. A little redness is negligible in my opinion, especially when compared with steroid cream or the topical creams that are sold that may cause glaucoma or are dangerous if rubbed on genital areas or left on the hands.

Erics point was that Tar for psoriasis is no less a part of the evidence based medicine arsenal than those prescriptions that were talked about as being unacceptable, and that it like all other medications has side effects.

My point was that complaining about the side effects from Coal tar does not get rid of the side effects of pine tar, which are very similar, because the products are very similar. Pine tar and pine sap are very different things, pine tar is made my dry roasting pieces of wood, you are left with charcoal and tar, Coal tar is made by dry roasting pieces of coal, you are left with coke and tar.

The FDA does distinguich between the two, both are made by processing two similar naturally occurring products (wood and coal)in the same way. Coal tar does contain carcinogens, Pine tar does contain carcinogens, Tobacco tar does contain carcinogens, Tars always contain carcinogens (the even used to add asbestos to roofing tar).

Everything has its side effects, for some people the redness and irritation off of tar products is worse than the symptoms, steroids are naturally occurring hormones, many of which are already produced by your own body, this does not mean that there will be no side effects, but its not as "unnatural" as you might be assuming.

Brendan...

"My point was that complaining about the side effects from Coal tar does not get rid of the side effects of pine tar, which are very similar, because the products are very similar."

Why is it that when I post FDA approved information about the known cancer-causing properties in Coal Tar (that has not been diagnosed in Pine Tar) it is seen by you as complaining?

I agree the products are similar. But there are differences as well. Mainly, that the FDA has proven Coal Tar to be related to cancer.

I'm sure for some people the redness and irritation would be worse.

Caveat emptor!

(for those among us who would listen to any of us and take our advice at face value without doing their own research and consulting with their personal physicians)

Thank you again gypsygal, I ve found omega3 capsules at wallyworld and have started taking them.
Silversword, i hope you stay around. a common sense approach to herbs is so important. Our economy is so bad and hurts so many of us on fixed income That some of us need to do everything we can to cut costs. As i have said i don't know anything about herbs but i can research any information i get and decide for myself.But we all have to have a starting point.

My thanks to ebrim also. i did'nt find
any Flexitox locally but will look when i go to a larger town next week.

My great grandfather was a doctor many years ago in Kansas. Our family tradition says he used local herbs as he learned about them from settlers and Native Americans. What medicines were known were in the far away east and mostly unavailable. He was never lynched. LOL! He did die of pnumonia caught while driving a horse and buggy in a cold rain going to check on a patient.
My grandmother said they were never rich but always had more than enough to eat. Maybe i could pay my doctor bill if i could pay in food i raise. LOL

silversword: "...the FDA has proven Coal Tar to be related to cancer."

"According to the National Psoriasis Foundation and the FDA, coal tar is a valuable, safe and inexpensive treatment option for millions of people with psoriasis and other scalp conditions. Coal tar concentrations between 0.5% and 5% are safe and effective for psoriasis, and no scientific evidence suggests that the coal tar in the concentrations seen in non-prescription treatments is carcinogenic."

Here is a link that might be useful: Coal tar preparations and psoriasis treatment

Brendan, I feel you are being pedantic. If you read my post, you would see I know that the FDA approves coal tar. But there is still the knowledge that in large does, over time, it has been known to cause cancer.

In case you want a citation on my opinion that you are a pedant...

"A pedant, or pant, is a person who is overly concerned with formalism and precision, or who 'makes a show of learning'...some people take pride in being a pedant. On Internet forums these individuals are known as grammar trolls."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedant

But in the interest of knowledge I will repeat myself.

Taken from my post on Mon, Jan 19, 09 at 17:47

"As of January 2002, California requires OTC coal tar shampoos, lotions and creams that contain more than 0.5% coal tar to be labeled with cancer warningsÂ.However, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) maintains that OTC products with coal tar concentrations between 0.5% and 5% are safe and effective for psoriasis and that no scientific evidence suggests that the coal tar in OTC products is carcinogenicÂ.Studies show some of the chemicals in coal tar may cause cancer, but only in very high concentrations, such as in coal tar used in industrial paving. Anyone using tar regularly should be aware of the signs of skin cancer and have a dermatologist recommend a skin cancer checkup schedule. "

"Pine tar, derived from pine trees, is a vegetable-based alternative to coal tar. It is a natural moisturizer with cleansing and antiseptic properties."

I am saying, if there are two products, one which is known to have cancer-causing agents (NO MATTER HOW SMALL) I would recommend using the product which does not have that risk (as known by us anyway).

I live in California. Those Prop. 65 signs are everywhere, including over the drive thru window at fast food restaurants, on cars, on boxes received from Office Depot, on the front window of our County clerk's office.

Extreme? Yes. Necessary? Yes. I would much prefer knowing what has a potential for cancer so I can avoid it if I personally think it is a risk to me.

I am not claiming that if someone puts coal tar on their body they will fall down with skin lesions and croak. I am recommending the 'more natural' option to my friends on this board.

This is my personal opinion. Use pine tar, not coal tar.

Hi Goshen,

"As i have said i don't know anything about herbs but i can research any information i get and decide for myself. But we all have to have a starting point. "

I totally agree. I see this forum as a good place to discuss what has worked for us and if more information is needed (as it would be, since none of us are physicians and have the medical charts of the other forum responders) we can seek that information and discuss it with our medical representatives (Western, Eastern, whatever we make the personal choice of utilizing).

Interesting knowledge about your Great-grandfather. My great-grandmother was a midwife in the Western US. She rode a horse to get to her patients and often had little more than extract of cannibis. Interestingly enough, when I just googled cannibis extract to get the spelling ;) I learned that "The most advantageous methods of extraction were determined, and the bactericide effect of the hemp substances experimentally proved in vitro on Gram-positive microorganisms: Staphylococcus pyogenes autreus haemolyticus, Staphylococcus aureus --- resistant to penicillin, Streptococcus beta haemolyticus, Streptococcus viridans, Pneumococcus Cornyebacterium diphteriae, and Bacillus anthracis." http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/medical/konopi.htm

A bit off topic, but pertinant to the MRSA conversation!

My grandmother never lost a patient, mother or child. She also had little to no access to today's socially acceptable medicines and relied on native and historical knowledge of herbs and remedies. Amazing that she did that without the modern conveniences that are making childbirth so much safer! (sarcasm, in case anyone missed it!)

One claim I've seen online is that the vast majority of pine tar products contain creosote, which can be toxic in high enough concentrations (the report also comes from a maker of pine tar shampoo who claims his product does not contain creosote).
If you look at pine tar MSDS data sheets, what comes up under carcinogenicity is "unknown" - which leads me to wonder if it just hasn't been studied enough to make conclusions one way or another.

Regardless, I'd consider getting a physician's advice before using either pine tar or coal tar soaps and shampoos for psoriasis on a long-term basis, seeing as alternatives are available.

silversword: "Brendan, I feel you are being pedantic...In case you want a citation on my opinion that you are a pedant...

"A pedant, or pædant, is a person who is overly concerned with formalism and precision, or who 'makes a show of learning'...some people take pride in being a pedant. On Internet forums these individuals are known as grammar trolls."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedant";

Here's another definition from Wikipedia:

"Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly damning character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions."

Ok, so you are fine with coal tar being proven carcinogenic and do not recommend one consults with a physician when we are discussing it earlier, but then reference an unknown source about the unknown carcinogenic properties of pine tar and think a consult is necessary?

As posted by me on Wednesday:
I agree the products are similar. But there are differences as well. Mainly, that the FDA has proven Coal Tar to be related to cancer. Caveat emptor! (for those among us who would listen to any of us and take our advice at face value without doing their own research and consulting with their personal physicians)

Do you really feel it is accurate to label me as argumentum ad personam when I have logically debated your (and Brendan's) tiring and (as this one is) pedantic arguments? I feel I have addressed the substance of the issues you both have brought forth. I think actually it is you who is portraying charactaristics of argumentum ad personam.

Goshen, it was Flexitol ending in L, not an X.

In my Rite Aide drugstore it was on the top shelf in the same section with zinc oxide, etc. They seem to be selling more over-the-counter remedies for psoriasis, including shampoos and creams with salicilic acid in them.

Testing has sometimes found stap as well as other germs in psoriasis lesions, which has usually been discounted by medical practitioners because staph is a commensual of skin, afer all. However, there is always the possibility that some could develop an allergy to a common microbe which would cause a rash such as psoriasis.

In any case, because a chemical fight with staph sometimes ends up with it becoming increasingly resistant, if a lesser step, such as a homeopathic salve, helps, it would be worth trying that first.

To stop spread, though, you might want to try using zinc oxide as a skin protectant, especially in nonvisible areas. I have had skin problems that I just alternately cleansed with the Cetaphyl cleanser and then covered up with zinc oxide for about a week or so. Eventually, the affected skin just sloughed off with new, unaffected skin underneath.

I read somewhere on the internet that zinc oxide can sometimes be contaminated with other, harmful metals such as lead. If you find zinc oxide is not helping you, try a different brand. They also have this mixed in baby diaper salves; go for the highest concentration of zinc oxide, but the A & D put in some of them can also be helpful.

Because of the possible staph connection, I would avoid oatmeal or other salve constituents that are "edible" to microorganisms. Apparently the Cetaphyl brand is noncomedonic, and also, the lotions have a relatively new natural lipid in them that can be better at skin moistening.

Mineral oil is probably not edible by staph, and it is used in a lot of skin care products, but it is my understanding that mineral oil can pass into the blood and leach out vitamins from the body. Vaseline is also petroleum based, and inexpensive; a doctor recently told my DH people didn't realize how useful it can be. He was told to cover an incised area where a mole had been removed with it to protect it while it was healing.

Dermarest apparently reformulated its shampoo and application for psoriasis to include a zinc compound as well as salicylic acid, so you might eventually want to also check that out as an alternate to the tar shampoos (Neutrogena puts out a good tar one, available at BJ's cheaper than at Wal Mart).

silversword Pine tar Potential Acute Health Effects:
Very hazardous in case of ingestion. Hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant). Slightly hazardous in case of
skin contact (irritant), of inhalation.
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
Very hazardous in case of ingestion.
Hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant).
Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of inhalation.

It contains Wood Creosote (and its often cut with coal creosote) which itself is made of such fun compounds as Cresol Which is Corrosive. Toxic by ingestion, inhalation and in contact with skin. Severe skin and eye irritant. May cause skin burns or discoloration. Chronic exposure may lead to kidney or liver damage. Typical TLV/TWA 5 ppm. Typical PEL 5 ppm. O-cresol Highly toxic. May be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed through skin. Experimental neoplastigen. Human mutagenic data. Readily absorbed through the skin. Very destructive of mucous membranes. Causes burns. Inhalation may cause spasm. Severe skin and eye irritant. Guaiacol which "CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. MAY BE HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN." and 4-Ethylguaiacol which Respiratory system, eyes, skin.

Potential Health Effects
Eye: Causes eye irritation.
Skin: Causes skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.
Ingestion: May cause gastrointestinal irritation with nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. May be harmful if swallowed.
Inhalation: Causes respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

All of this doesn't mean that pine tar is bad, it just means that its not a side effect free alternative. It is rare to find something that works that doesn't have side effects. I think that Tar products are probably the answer for a large number of psoriasis sufferers, and pinetar is probably the better choice, but its not infinitely better.

Looks like some other debate/discussion fallacies need to be clarified.

silversword: "Ok, so you are fine with coal tar being proven carcinogenic and do not recommend one consults with a physician when we are discussing it earlier, but then reference an unknown source about the unknown carcinogenic properties of pine tar and think a consult is necessary? "

Strawman arguments here. I've never said I am "fine" with "coal tar being proven carcinogenic". I pointed out that in the low concentrations used in topical treatments, it's never been shown to be carcinogenic and in fact is an approved treatment for psoriasis according to the FDA and National Psoriasis Foundation. I said that there should be consideration for consulting a physician as to the advisability of long-term use. One can mention approved/effective therapies in a post without having to specify in every post that a doctor should be consulted (there are posters here who find that irritating). I did not reference an "unknown source" but specified MSDS data sheets which are easily found online. For instance, this one.

"Do you really feel it is accurate to label me as argumentum ad personam...I think actually it is you who is portraying charactaristics of argumentum ad personam."

I suggested that your style of posting falls into this category. It's a distraction from the topic under discussion and detracts from a positive forum atmosphere. Trying to turn this against me is both inaccurate and a form of tu quoque argument, which doesn't fly either.

"Tu Quoque is a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser. This is a classic Red Herring since whether the accuser is guilty of the same, or a similar, wrong is irrelevant to the truth of the original charge."

I look forward to further discussions with you that avoid insults and other unnecessary distractions.

Hi Goshen,

Here are some homemade salve recipes (I have not personally tried any of them)

First one from http://www.bushka.cz/archiv/mastEN.html

Ingredients:

White or yellow (non-refined - better for allergies) Vaseline, leaves and lower buds of cannabis, optionally a pinch of mint crystals or 0,1 l of hempseed oil.
Proportions:

For 1 kg of Vaseline it is necessary to use 100 g of dried leaves and 50 g of lower buds
Preparation:

1. melt one half of the Vaseline in a larger pot

2. add roughly crushed leaves and let them slowly fry during 20 minutes

3. after cooling the mixture pour into the pot 4 liters of water

4. bring to the boiling point and slowly cook during 90 - 120 minutes

5. let it cool and put it into the fridge overnight

6. take out the fatty cake and press it in order to eliminate the rests of water

7. spread the cake into a wider recipient, cover it and let it ferment during 3 weeks in a dark place at room temperature

8. again put the mixture into a larger pot, add the other half of Vaseline and melt it

9. slowly cook the mixture until the disagreeable smell of fermentation disappears

10. drain it through a strainer and pour the resulting light-green colored liquid into a recipient immersed in a water bath

11. add finely crushed lower buds and cook in the water bath during one hour until a light skim forms on the surface (dont forget to stir frequently)

12. let it cool and store it for 1 week in a dark and cold place

13. repeat the cooking in water bath and put the recipient into a cold place again for another week

14. melt and cook the mixture as in the precedent point, drain it first through a kitchen strainer and after through a fine canvas (do not throw the canvas with the drained buds, store it into a freezer - it can be very efficiently used as a warm compress in case of asthmatic problems, bronchitis or joint pains)

15. the salve is now ready to be poured into small cups if you want to use it pure - otherwise you can improve it with a pinch of mint crystals (for muscular and joint pains) or with 0,1 liter of virgin hempseed oil (for dermatologic problems)

Pure or mint salve may be stored in a cold place, but they do not deteriorate for at least 6 months even at the room temperature. In the contrary, the salve with the addition of hempseed oil needs to be stored in a cold place and should be used within 6 weeks.

And here's another one from http://www.natural-skin-care-info.com/herbal-healing-salve.html

Basic Recipe:

1 cup herbally infused oil 1 - 2 oz. Beeswax 10 capsules Vitamin E Oil ½ tsp. each tea tree and lavender essential oils

In a small pan, gently heat the herbally infused oil and beeswax until barely melted. Cut or poke the vitamin E capsules open, and squeeze the vitamin E oil into the beeswax/oil mixture. Remove from heat, and add the essential oils. Pour a tiny amount of the salve mixture onto waxed paper or into a container to cool. Test it for thickness - if you'd like it to be harder, add more beeswax. If you'd like it to have a thinner balm, add more oils.

When you're satisfied with the consistency, pour the balm into clean, sanitized jars and let cool. This all-purpose salve can be used for cuts, scrapes, splinters, diaper rash, burns, rashes, or for dry skin.

To make a herbally infused oil:

In a saucepan, combine dry herbs and a vegetable oil (we like extra virgin olive oil, but just about any kind will do). Specific proportions are not important - use a few generous handfuls of herbs and use enough oil to cover them. Heat over lowest possible heat for several hours - three minimum, we usually try for 12 or 15.

Alternatively, use a crock-pot on the "low" setting. Strain out the herbs and use your herbally infused oil to make balms, or as a massage oil, bath oil, or as a great winter moisturizer.

Some Herbs to try: chamomile, comfrey, sheep sorrell, turkish rhubarb, St. John's Wort, calendula.

And one more from http://natural-homemade-skin-care.blogspot.com/2008/02/coconut-and-neem-oil-salve.html

Use this salve topically for chronic skin conditions such as acne, eczema and psoriasis. Coconut oil and oregon grape root can also be taken orally for added efficacy.

You will need:

78g coconut oil (solid)
20g neem oil
3 x oregon grape root capsules
1ml cedarwood essential oil

Method:

Melt the coconut and neem oils in a double boiler. Take off the heat when melted, and stir in the contents (herb powder) of the oregon grape root capsules. Add the cedarwood essential oil. Stir until cool and set, and put into a clean, dark glass jar. Keep refrigerated as the oils have a low melt point.

I've had good luck helping people with psoriasis & eczema with a cream of honey, calendula, balsam of peru & a just a little benzoin resin (may irritate if you use too much). I put it in an apricot/beeswax base-- very little beeswax (1/4-1/5 of total oil.) If the cream is too thick, take out a little, heat it up & re-emulsify it with MILK (as long as you don't have a milk allergy). Without the milk, you can keep this cream for a year without fear of it going rancid, so only add the milk to a little bit each time you use it if you want to use the milk. The resins & honey coat & heal; the milk softens. Calendula aids in new cell growth. Apricot oil is the same weight as sebum, so most skins don't glut up with it.
Your skin is your largest excretory organ (among its many other purposes)--so issue which affect it on a large scale primarily originate in the liver, because if the liver can't handle getting rid of the toxins, it's going to try to send them out through the skin. Auto-immune diseases have multiple causes, but all of them are triggered by stress even if we think we're handling things well. Adrenal supports like siberian ginseng (eleutheroccocus) can be effective in rebalancing adrenal function. Immune supports,such as astragulus and digestive supports (yoghurt!), further enhance rebalancing. I caution, however, against using echinacea as a long term immune support-- it excites the bone marrow to produce white blood cells and seems to "continue the battle" with immune-compromised individuals. And I have not found it to be affective with skin issues. Rather, "blood cleansers" such as red clover, and lymph cleansers (cleavers) help clear toxins from the body & allow the liver to "refocus". Start with a little of ONE herb & see if it does anything for you (give it two weeks). Add or try a different one. You will find, as your condition changes, that your herbal needs will change. SLOWLY--Unless, of course, you have a sensitivity to something, then you'll know immediately :o The cream helps the symptoms while the internal herbs are doing the rest of the work. As others have mentioned, it is not in itself a cure. Good luck!

I forgot to mention that you should always check for counterindications with prescription drugs when you start an internal herbal regimen. Germany's Commission E report often lists them, but perhaps other people in this forum have more info where up to date info can be found.