We usually do a cleft graft of two types to the top, then a T-Bud to one or two sides

Steven, I have found it very difficult to produce multi-grafted persimmons. Persimmon grafts tend to die out where there is competition from other growing shoots. I do have a few multi-grafts but they were hard to establish; you need to have all grafts at the same "level" on the tree so one is not dominant over the other, otherwise the dominant one will grow and the rest will just sit there. I don't think it is a coincidence that nurseries do not sell multi-grafted persimmons. I would say to instead get four rootstocks and put them in the same hole. If you wanted to attempt a multi-graft I would wait until your tree had several main scaffolds in a vase shape, and graft a different variety onto each limb of the vase.

Scott

What Scott said.
It's very difficult to get multiple grafts established on a branched persimmon, and the species' propensity for self-pruning lower branches as it grows and ages usually result in whatever varieties you might have been able to foster on those lower branches eventually being deleted by the tree.

Hi, (and as always: THANKS for the replies),

What if I start with a young grafted 'Saijo' Asian persimmon, so that the newly in-grafted scions will not be that much behind what has already grown, and since this is a short tree (up to about 15'), I could always keep track of the main branch that began each in-grafted scions entry into the group and prune all other branches that interfere with their continued existence among the others.

Would I cut off some of the 'Saijo' branches and start the cleft grafts there, above the D. virginiana root-stock?

I started with a grafted Saijo, put one little limb of Fuji on top, and I am going to have no Saijo in a few years at the rate things are going - since the Fuji is on top it is getting all the energy of the roots. Thats the problem, try to shift the balance one way and you may overdo it, shifting it too far. The only way it works is to get one thing on side and the other thing on the other, and keep each part balanced. I have one success like that which did work (so far). And several failures.

Scott

Hi Scott,

1. Did you recommend, in the past, Maru as superior in taste to Fuyu/Jiro and most others?
2. Then I think I Would stick to three types, and maintain the tree in three-sides: Maru, Saijo, & Jiro. Sounds feasable - as long as I thoroughly monitor the progress of each of the three main branches and keep the three structured with 3 main branches and pruned to 12 feet. What do you think?
3. Do you think I can order a tree already grafted with two or all-three of these cultivars?

1. I have never tasted Maru but I personally prefer the PVNA types of which Maru is one. Last night I was eating some Chocolate persimmons I had in the back of my fridge. They were wonderful. The flesh was like the insides of a prune in darkness (and richness, of course with persimmon not prune flavor).
2. If you had two places to start off with you may be able to do this, but if you have not grafted persimmons before I put the odds of success as low - they are fickle beasts. I did manage to get one 3-way going and it was doing pretty well until the weedeater got one of the three. Keep nipping off the Saijo buds over and over, until the two grafts get going. At that point, and ONLY at that point, let only one Saijo bud grow.
3. NJ, as both Lucky and I stated above, multi-graft persimmons are a bear and I don't think any nursery would risk making one. As I also mentioned above, if you are keen on a multi-way tree just plop multiple rootstocks in a single hole. It is an easy thing to do, and it works. I have successfully put four roots only 2" (thats inches, not feet) from each other and angled each one out at a nice "crotch angle" so I have a tree with no trunk, just four scaffolds coming out of the ground at nice angles and with a different variety on each. The trees are angled but the roots are all intertwined with each other and prop each other up so each tree is not in a risk of falling over (I figured this out when I dug one of these guys up once and tried to separate them -- big pain!). An additional advantage of this method is you have a lower tree because there is no main trunk at all, just main scaffolds.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Although I, initially, looked passed the idea, it does sound like a very good one: to plant 3 trees in the same hole, spaced at about 2-inches apart from one another.

Couple questions:

1. Do you think that the set of 3 trees would have a long, sustained lifespan under these conditions? I want a set up that will endure decades (or at least a similar lifespan as a single specimen).

2. Would the collection of all 3 trees add up to about the same width (if not height) of a healthy single persimmon tree? (I consider a healthy full persimmon tree of a 'Saijo' or 'Ichie kei jiro' to be around 15' wide and maybe 20' tall).

3. What is the name of this technique - I'd like to look up photo examples, as this will be in my front yard (aesthetics).

Steve

Steve, such a tree will last longer than a normal tree since it has three stocks; if one rootstock dies you still have two varieties left. Thats not as good as three, but better than zero. I grafted six apple varieties to a tree two years ago and it died last summer so I lost all six varieties.

Such a 3-tree will grow a bit lower and wider since it is branching right from the ground. Overall it will be about the same size as a single tree.

The technique is called backyard orchard culture -- Google that for more information and pictures. Their approach is to plant them 1' apart and not angle the stocks out, the 2" apart and angled out is my variation on their idea.

The main problem with this approach is one tree can grow in the way of the others if you don't prune it back; if it gets too dense you will get diseases or all leaves and no fruit. Make it a vase shape by removing all the inward-growing limbs. Make sure no one variety shades out the others too much. Also it is a relatively new idea so there may be other drawbacks that have yet to emerge. Overall, if you want three persimmon varieties on one tree, I would say its the best option.

Scott

I have been reading The Grafter's Handbook, and I wondered if one could plant several trees together and then actually wrap them with something that expands but still could keep them taut together. After a while maybe a natural graft would occur and you would actually have one tree. Is this far-fetched? It seems to have happened in nature.

Hi Scott,

Well, since I have a real interest in Persimmons and I have room for three trees: I'll plant two trios of Asian persimmon cultivars and one trio of American persimmon cultivars.

1. From what I've seen on youtube, etc, when you plant them a foot or so apart, the look is not that great and becomes (allows for) more dense, whereas (as seen in only one example so far) you plant them 2" (inches, not feet) apart, they grow to look like a single multi-trunk tree. I just hope that planting them an inche or two inches apart will work-out. I'll also do this with wild black cherry (a tree which can, ordinarily, grow way too large for my yard) but I want as a butterfly host specimen (i'll plant 4 right next to each other).

2. Do you think that I should plant (just to make sure I got you right) the Persimmons (Asians and American trios separate) only 2 inches apart, instead of 1 foot apart. My hope is that, as the trunks expand, the 3 trucks will form an almost single trunk in years to come.

3. Do you have a photo of trees (particularly persimmon) grown in this manner - just inches apart?

NJBiology:

Planting several varieties of persimmon in one hole may eventually offer some interesting diversity of fruit, but I wouldn't call such an arrangement attractive as a lawn specimen. You will end up with a very large, bushy arrangement, not a tree. If you want beautiful trees in your yard, plant single trees, and make do with fewer, carefully chosen varieties.

It is not unheard of, but certainly unusual, to deliberately plant the eastern wild cherry (prunus serotina) as a lawn specimen. I don't know what kind of butterflies you expect to attract with this species, which is not a particularly attractive thing in the wild, and is usually valued mostly for its wood. The leaves are toxic to animals, but the trees are extraordinarily attractive to tent caterpillars. These trees can be found throughout the state of Virginia, and by mid to late summer, all of them are covered with tent caterpillar webs. I don't think those produce butterflies.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Hi,

Don: Prunus serotina is a main host plant to the Red-Spotted Purple, Eastern Tiger Swallowtail, and a few other butterflies - but a PRIMARY host plant for the two mentioned. It get's big, as you know - i'll keep it in the yard, but I'd like to keep the stand from growing large.

Btw, you're right - I'd end up with a bushy arrangement, so I wont do this in the front.

Scott & Don:

I think (doing this in the back yard) I should plant the trunks 14" apart because the trunks of the Diospyros virginiana, Wild Persimmon, understock can get to be 12" wide and I suppose in 10 years, the trucks will expand to bond (flushed against one another) and will have room to do that; in the meanwhile, I can prune the ranches in between them...?

Steve, I don't think its so bad if the trunks fuse, they will support each other better that way.

Re: the looks, I think it can look nice this way but it is certainly not your standard look. It will look more like a bush. A pomegranate or blueberry has a similar look since they have multiple trunks. Just tell your friends its a persimmon bush and they will never know the difference :-) I don't have many plantings like this since I have all of my trees in closely spaced rows. I do have a couple of these within these closely spaced rows. Below is a picture of a peach tree 3-way:

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These trees I grew from seed and they are three years old now. They are more like 4-5 inches apart. I probably should have angled them out a bit more than this, when I planted this one I did't know how well the roots will stabilize the leaning trunks.

This tree hasn't been pruned yet, it has some low sprouts I will need to remove and the middle will need thinning out a bit more. You can see angles in the trunks where in past years I pruned out the inward-growing branches and left the outward ones.

Scott

Hi Scott,

I'm thinking: one day, the trees will grow and, angled outward, the limbs will be weak and unstable, and once heavy enough could snap/fall.

What if I just bough a bunch of these trees and just prune them (forever) to just around 6 feet - will that cause the trunk to continue to expand and also stress the tree?

Steve, there are lots of big trees with big limbs going out which last for a very very long time. Trees are designed to support weight like that. That said, there is a "too far" point. I don't think the angle I have in the above picture could ever cause any problem at all, it is so small and the roots are supporting each other. I keep all my trees 8' tall and with that height a greater angle would work than the above. If you did not plan to limit the height I would keep the angle something like the above to be on the safe side.

The fruit trees I have seen which went "too far"and split are trees that have extremely low angled branches on very large limbs, e.g. the angle with the ground is less than 30 degrees.

Scott

Scott,

I'm doing this big wildlife project in the yard which will involve me solarizing my lawn so that I can seed native grasses and wildflower in the fall. However, in the refrigerator, I have a number of native persimmon and paw paw seeds that I want to begin as seedlings this spring season.

I need to keep them in containers, starting them off in them until I can plant them in the upcoming late fall, after I've removed the plastic sheeting covering the lawn.

What size containers would you recommend that I order online to start them off? Secondly, what (larger) size would you recommend if I were to grow them in the containers not just for this year (until fall), but all of this year and next year also?

I'm thinking 3 gallon containers?

I use quart pots for trees I start early for planting out in the spring, gallon pots for things in pots their first year and .. well thats about all I do. 3-gal sounds good for one more year.

This discussion inspired me to make a 3-way persimmon tree just now. Two years ago I had put some persimmons in a spot where they were too shaded, so I pulled out three of them and made a 3-way at the end of the row. The roots were pretty big but I got the trunks about 6" from each other. I leaned them out a bit more than with the peach above.

Scott

Hey Scott,

I just ordered a bunch of 3 gallon containers. I'm going to purchase a 'Saijo' and one other Asian persimmon. Then, in addition to my 'Meader' American, I'm going to purchase a 'Szukis' and one other American cultivar.

I want to experiment, after these threes are established single (well-pruned specimens) in producing an Asian Persimmon duo multi-graft (Saijo and one other) and produce an American persimmon trio (Meader, Szukis, and one other). If they don't work out, it will be ok since I'll have them separately growing (pruned).

1.Since you highly recommend the PVNA Asian types, in addition to the 'Saijo', I want to grow one PVNA (perhaps 'Chocolate'); I live in Zone 6b, and I know that 'Saijo' is said to be cold-hardy down to -10F. What would be a recommended variety of PVNA that would be cold-hardy for zone 6? From what I've read, 'Chocolate' is not an option (whereas other sites contradict this, claiming it would work out in zone 6).

2. What varieties of American persimmon (flavor) are you familiar with? Some have suggested 'Szukis' is the best and that 'Meader' is not necessarily the best tasting variety, comparatively.

3. Do you think that I can, forever, continue to summer prune an American persimmon tree - if I wanted to keep it under 10' feet, or would this eventually stress and kill the tree years down the line?

4. As for the 'Saijo' and PVNA Asian varieties, can I place the tree only 8' from my pavers/walk way - or will the roots destroy the paves? I intend to prune the lowest branches so that the lowest limb is above 6' off the ground so that it can spread without obstructing the walk-way.

Thanks,
Steve

1. The most hardy PVNA type I know of is Maru. Maru is really a family of persimmons, not one variety, sort of like Fuyu. I have a Maru from a tree on the eastern shore of Maryland that has survived 50 years of winters here. Some nurseries on the west coast now sell Maru. That said, my Chocolate has survived several winters with 0F lows and one of a -2F low.

2. I don't know American persimmons - no room for them.

3. Yes; the pruning doesn't affect the life of the tree.

4. I don't think anything would happen at 8' away, the roots are deep enough and thats pretty far.

Scott

Scott & Lucky:

What about the following common technique, to assure the success of a multi-grafted persimmon tree; so that the lower limbs of the trees are not eventually dropped/replaced, succeeded by the dominant cultivar variety.

It's a variety of cleft graft known as a 'rind graft', that you wait until you have a 3" diameter understock and insert 3 separate (slender) scions side by side. This way you have no future downside of loosing a variety when the tree grows and sheds the lower branches which may be of one cultivar. This is poorly written. Will it work to do a rind graft, as they do with apple trees? I think if the understock is wide enough to support 3 in grafted separate branches to form the tree, all you'd have to do is maintain the 3 from the start of the graft upward to see that no side dominates, via pruning.

Let me know, thanks.
Steve

p.s. does the understock HAVE TO be a male American persmmon, or would female work also?

"how can you in-graft scion wood when in situations where there is only a single truck" ?

Do several chip-budding on your single trunck.
Chip budding is the most recommended and most effective graft method I have done with Diospyros spp.
(graft with dormant scionwood march-april...)

Explains about chip budding (in french) : http://www.greffer.net/?p=409

Steve, you can try any kind of graft at the same height and you may get lucky. Like I wrote above, I did get one 3-way to work. Oulala, Re the chip budding, they need to be at very similar heights or there is a risk of the dominant one being the only one budding or thriving. I have done chip buds all over my persimmons as backup grafts (in case the main one failed); they are however hard to get to grow reliably if there is competition. Many of them did grow their first year, giving me some budwood to graft to another rootstock later to save the variety.

Scott

Hi Scott,

I re-read what you've written, after being much more informed since. Before I continue one, I feel that my constant re-thinking of this issue may not be a waste of time, because if a solution that works comes of this, this could be useful to a LOT of fruit gardeners. The plan bellow, if it works, would be ideal.

No one responded to milehighgirl's question: would the multiple trees in one hole at 2" apart eventually naturally approach graft/fuse together - kept taut together.

What if 4 bare-root nursery-grafted saplings of the same height (less then 1" diameter) were wrapped flushed/tightly together with tape [so that there is no room in between each other were planting in the ground]? They would be wrapped around the base, midway up from ground level, and a third tape wrap at the top. Since they are young, wouldn't they have thin-enough bark exteriors that they would form a single trunk as they expand? I feel strongly about doing this... I don't want to make a mistake and cause the 4 to rot, instead of fusing, however. I've seen a wiki link that showed 4 trees of 4 cores growing next to each other showing that their 4 cores migrated to the center - cross-section/fire wood.

Steve

Steve,

I am also very interested in this. Besides getting multiple cultivars in one tree-space, I would like to see if I could use suckers from my pear tree to re-bark part of it. It's at least 50 years old and I would like it to keep on going. It seems that if I used suckers, or grafted it's own scion onto it near the roots, I could eventually even nail the suckers in the space where the tree is missing bark. My hope is that the suckers would eventually join up with the old bark. My dilemma is with the multiple piths. Will they continue to grow, or will they eventually be incorporated into the tree. Is there a way to remove the pith once the suckers are well established and their tops grafted up high on the tree.

I don't suppose any one has any ideas about any of this and I probably sound crazy!

I think I will try the inosculation technique on a couple of cherries I have on Colt. I thought they could be wrapped in some kind of loose mesh that would allow sun to penetrate and not allow pests to hibernate (although maybe small nails would work too). I would love to do it with peaches, but they are so fragile and short-lived I don't think it would work as well.

Anyway, I think I'll experiment and see what happens.