Newly registered poster + immediate promotion of a commercial product = spam (typically).

"No Evidence of Success - There is no scientific evidence that a diet of apple cider vinegar will work. There is no competent nutritionist or dietician that will recommend an apple cider vinegar diet. Using apple vinegar to burn fat is just a myth.

If you try apple cider vinegar with the expectation of losing weight, you'll be very disappointed with the results. However, you will join thousands who have fallen for this diet scam. Don't be a victim. Use a sensible diet plan to lose weight."

to your response eric about no scientific evidence and basicly a myth.well i thought i could defend the truth and the fact many people cant be wrong and say theres is no scientific evidence that there is a god now is there but in all reality we know this world didnt come to be by chance as and example. all i can say is w/ out changing anything in my life eating good, exercising i had really bad stomache issues and could not lose weight.my so call test results resulted in no more stomache issue and weight lose along w/ other benefits.now i may not be a scientist but from my own personal experience and test it helped me lose weight and kept me from having to take prescription meds for acid reflex and bloating and etc..and hopefully that will be for the rest of my life.there are many people that have had many issues clear up from things that are not scientically proven. so are we all liars dreamers than what? and if there isnt something really out there other than what the drug companys wanyt us to believe than maybe you can explain why certain people are trying to get control on more natural things.

like i had mention in my previous comments about the bragg apple cider vinegar i eat 5 common sense meals a day invovling the basic food groups. i do not starve myself. i do not restricts carbs or healthy fats or eat high protien diets. i do exercise mostly pililates. for me i was working out eating healthy and not losing weight. i added this to my already healthy eating and exercise and over a period of severals months i lost 40 pounds.i dont consider what i do a diet. if you are going to try apple cider vinegar and starve yourself or not eat the basic food groups and not exercises to some degree than i dont recommend. its about loving ones self and wanting to take care of are precious gift of life that was giving to us. to me this is not a fad diet this something i could add to a already healthy never starving or restricting common senses food lifestyle.

If you do a search of this forum for "apple cider vinegar" you'll find lots of discussion of all the wonder cures ACV is supposed to provide, plus lots of negative comments from people who found it was useless, caused nausea or other symptoms, or both.

People can convince themselves of many things falsely, which is why testimonials are inherently untrustworthy. Plenty of us want to believe in a magic pill or cure that will allow us to lose weight without dieting and exercise and with no side effects. The magic doesn't exist. Losing weight takes dedication and common sense.

As to the Bragg product, aside from the fact that its touted effects have no scientific foundation, there's a lack of evidence that it is superior to plain, cheap vinegar you can buy at the grocery store. Those who want to experiment with vinegar can save money by ignoring product hype.

as for researching it really would be useless to me now that i have experience the benefits for myself. as w/ many things im sure what works for some may not work for everyone. i have done research of course before using bragg apple cider vinegar. as far as the price im not sure im getting you on that one. i get it for $12.99 a gallon and for me and trust me i live from week to week i dont find that expensive and compare to so many diets or fads out there and the price of meds for acid reflex thats cheap. now compare to store brand vinegar of course its more . but from the research ive done it not the same.as far as conviencing myself of false things as i mention earlier i eat exactly the same which is 5 well balance meals a day from the basic food groups no starving myself or low carb high protien and etc.. fads. and i exercise regularly as i did before using the bragg vinegar. no weight loss and stomache and acid reflux issues that i have realize your not defending. i added the braggs to my routine not changing any of the healthy choices i was applying and i loss the weight and as far as the stomache issue and acid reflux that i was told id have to take meds. for the rest of my life have disappeared. dont see how i can convience myself of something that i have experiences and know for a fact w/ out changing anything that it work for me.

Just came across an article in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology that lists vinegar along with things like exercise, a high fiber diet, fish oil, lean protein, moderate alcohol and weight loss as things that can improve post-meal metabolic function.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dietary strategies for improving post-prandial glucose, lipids, inflammation, and cardiovascular health.

What that article does not claim is that any type of vinegar alone is an effective weight-loss aid.

It specifically refers to a type of metabolic response after eating unhealthy foods that may increase the risk of heart disease, and suggests dietary and lifestyle changes to mitigate that presumed risk.

"Specifically, a diet high in minimally processed, high-fiber, plant-based foods such as vegetables and fruits, whole grains, legumes, and nuts will markedly blunt the post-meal increase in glucose, triglycerides, and inflammation. Additionally, lean protein, vinegar, fish oil, tea, cinnamon, calorie restriction, weight loss, exercise, and low-dose to moderate-dose alcohol each positively impact post-prandial dysmetabolism.

In terms of weight loss (the subject of this thread), calorie restriction and exercise would be regarded by the great majority of nutritionists as the keys to reaching that goal.

The idea of "low to moderate dose alcohol" also has its appeal. ;)

In terms of the subject of this thread, the original posts and follow-ups did mention diet and exercise as being essential.

The article I cited above also concluded that a diet (like the Mediterranean and Okinawan) that included such foods (incl. vinegar) were anti-inflammatory and useful both for preventing diabetes and cardiovascular disease - ie, these foods should be included for their own sake, not merely as an antidote to an unhealthy diet as you suggest.

Here's another article that noted "In previous studies, vinegar has been shown to suppress renin activity of spontaneously hypertensive rats, to inhibit the ACE activity of the mouse pulmonary tissues in vitro, and to reduce blood pressure of the spontaneously hypertensive rat.'

So vinegars work against hypertension in various animal models - but it hasn't been researched in humans ... maybe because 'scientists' think they can understand the world without having to actually test hypotheses? Since "common sense" tells them that vinegar is inert except for the acidity, no need to see how it might really affect the human body?

Here is a link that might be useful: A red wine vinegar beverage can inhibit the renin-angiotensin system: experimental evidence in vivo.

"In terms of the subject of this thread, the original posts and follow-ups did mention diet and exercise as being essential."

The original poster suggested her weight loss was due entirely to the vinegar, and that she'd been dieting and exercising for several months without effect. It's common for people to believe that an alternative remedy caused positive changes, while disregarding diet, lifestyle alterations and drugs that probably were responsible.

Diabetes and heart disease were not mentioned until you brought them up in relation to an article that mentioned a variety of things (including diet and exercise) that may be beneficial in preventing them. There was nothing in that link to show that any type of vinegar has documented effects in preventing these ailments in humans. There's also a lack of evidence that vinegar is a wondrous weight loss aid (apart from testimonials and wild claims from vinegar product sellers).

"So vinegars work against hypertension in various animal models - but it hasn't been researched in humans ... maybe because 'scientists' think they can understand the world without having to actually test hypotheses?"

Hmmm...you're citing the existence of scientific research in order to claim that scientists don't want to do research?

It's commonplace for drugs and treatments to be tested in cell cultures and rodent models before they are tried on humans. Lots of ideas that look good in theory don't pan out in initial testing, are not promising enough to launch human testing, or fail in human trials.

Making sweeping claims based on very preliminary findings is a mistake typical of some alt med advocates, as is drumming up misplaced hostility against the scientific community for failing to embrace alternative treatments without good evidence that they work.

Hello. My father has(had) terrible heartburn/acid reflux. About three years he started taking raw unfiltered apple cider vinegar. He drinks about half a cup a day and he does not have the problem anymore. I guess most anything acidic would help with acid reflux. Just another example of natural remedies that "don't work" that actually do.

>> Hmmm...you're citing the existence of scientific research in order to claim that scientists don't want to do research?

No. If you read my message, 'scientists' was in quote marks - I distinguish between people that are actually doing research and those that use 'common sense' or other value laden systems to opine an answer a question that should be answered by research. When you look at the science about fermented foods, there is a lot there, and we are just scratching the surface.

The fact that a particular treatment is well researched (even in humans) doesn't meant that this knowledge will be widespread, or put into practice everywhere.

In the case of vinegar, the knowledge that needs to be widespread is that it's no wonder cure, for weight loss or anything else.

"Nutritional analysis of vinegar, including apple cider vinegar, quickly shows that it is not a good source of any nutrient...Given the scientific implausability behind most of vinegars claims, not surprisingly, there is no scientific evidence that it has any medicinal properties. The FDA has even issued warning letters to nutraceutical companies selling apple cider vinegar products for making unsupportable claims that it reduces cholesterol levels or hardening of the arteries; lowers risks for heart disease, heart attacks or strokes; or is effective for conditions ranging from obesity to arthritis. Even the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM), a division of the National Institutes of Health specifically tasked to investigate natural or unconventional modalities, has found no studies to support vinegar.

M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, Texas, concludes there is no evidence of any benefit of vinegar for:

Acne, amino acid source, anti-aging, antiseptic for gastrointestinal tract, appetite suppression, arthritis, asthma, bladder cleanser, bowel stone prevention in horses, circulation improvement, colitis, dandruff prevention, decongestant, dental conditions, detoxification, diarrhea, digestion aid, dizziness, ear discharge, eczema, fatigue, flavoring agent, food poisoning, hair loss, hair rinse, hay fever, headache, hearing impairment, heartburn, hemorrhage, hiccoughs, high blood pressure, household sanitizer, high cholesterol, immune enhancement, infections, insect bites, insomnia, itchy scalp, kidney cleanser, leg cramps, menstruation regulation, mental alertness, mineral source, nail problems, nervousness, nose bleeds, obesity, osteoporosis, queasy stomach, scurvy prevention, shingles, sinus congestion, skin toner, sore eyes, sore throat, strength enhancement, stuffy nose, sunburn, tired eyes, vaginitis, varicose veins, viral hepatitis, vitamin source, or weight loss.

While apple cider vinegar is relatively harmless for most people as normally consumed, believing it can cure, prevent or treat health problems also puts people at risk who are deterred from seeking needed medical care for serious health issues. M.D. Anderson, according to Natural Standard Monograph (2007), also warns that theoretically, long-term use could diminish bone mineral density and interact with and increase the risk of toxicity of cardiac glycoside prescriptions, such as digoxin; and potentiate the potassium-lowering effects of insulin, laxatives and diuretics, such as Lasix."

The article (see link below) notes that people promoting vinegar for weight loss overlook the fact that it's also a folk remedy for improving appetite (in a previous thread on cider vinegar, I linked to a website promoting its alleged benefits in treating a huge list of conditions, which included both weight loss and weight gain).

I don't think drinking small quantities of any kind of vinegar is going to be harmful in most people. What bothers me most are the miracle cure claims and the subtext that one doesn't have to take any responsibility for making lifestyle changes or seeking out other therapies that are truly effective. For instance, how many people read testimonies like steph's (in the opening post) and figure that diet isn't important, all they have to do is drink a particular cider vinegar product and they'll lose 40 pounds?

"For instance, how many people read testimonies like steph's (in the opening post) and figure that diet isn't important"

anyone who read steph's post would see she also mentioned eating sensibly and pilates as part of her regime. If she posted that she lived on mcdonalds and pizza and still lost 40 pounds from the vinegar then that would be proposing a miracle cure.

If someone wanted to try losing weight without diet and exercise by drinking vinegar, that would be their choice, but just as with medication to lose weight, a doctor would still recommend dietary changes in conjunction but they wouldnt state that the medication doesnt work and that it's just a placebo effect and the pills don't really work, so why do you take this attitude to all herbal treatments eric? it's such a double standard you have.

vinegar does affect digestion so I dont think it's an incredible leap to think it could help promote certain things - note I said (help) promote not replace all other treatments. seriously how much research do you think drug companies for example have done on vinegar? where are they going to make money in that? the only research into these types of things will be done on a small scale where the final outcome is not solely aimed at producing a high selling medication. research into herbal remedies is always going to be way behind these proven artificial complexes which we all know have side effects - very few medications dont, and some of the side effects can be very serious, a little vinegar on the other hand isn't going to kill anyone.

I have had a problem with very low HDL chol for at least 3 years, and I read a few months ago that some studies have suggested an increase in vitamin c can increase those levels, I mean come on, vitamin c? so I have been taking it daily for the last few months not really thinking it would have much effect, but I figured it couldnt hurt. I received my latest test results the other day and my HDL has magically jumped well up into normal levels, this is something I have been trying to achieve for a long time by dietary means and I couldnt manage it.

I was stunned, my doctor was stunned, do I know for sure it was the vit c? about as much as I can tell if any medication is having an effect, but I do know something very dramatic has gone on since my last results just a few months ago before I started taking it. that doesnt mean I'm suggesting someone with cholesterol problems should try to treat it solely with vitamin c, that would be ludicrous, but if adding one little vitamin supplement can potentially have such a significant impact, it sure isnt going to hurt anyone.

"anyone who read steph's post would see she also mentioned eating sensibly and pilates as part of her regime."

Anyone who read her opening post would have seen this:

"i can honestly say i have not change my eating habits...work out on pilates which i have not increased at all. i can say for me personally this (taking cider vinegar) has been a life changing experience...i did not change anything although i do admit that i do pilates but i was doing that before vinegar w/ no change for almost 4 mths before."

So yes, she's giving cider vinegar the credit for her weight loss instead of diet and exercise.

As noted in many previous posts, there's a ton of research being done on potential plant-derived medications and supplements. Here's one major review currently in the news regarding hazards of some common antioxidant supplements - ones commonly taken by people who think they're avoiding what you termed "these proven artificial complexes which we all know have side effects".

As I said, I doubt consuming small amounts of vinegar daily will be harmful (although see the most recent link I provided). The real problem involves people neglecting proven interventions (like diet, exercise and limiting alcohol intake) in favor of some magic pill that they are encouraged to believe will solve all their problems.

"ones commonly taken by people who think they're avoiding what you termed "these proven artificial complexes which we all know have side effects".

eric, by the same token how many people see headache/pain medication on the shelf and assume it is completely safe? and yet many of these medications contain codeine which addictive, paracetamol which can cause liver damage and ibuprofen which can cause very serious damage to the stomach and intestine. the problem with your arguments is that all of them can be applied to proven medications as well.

"The real problem involves people neglecting proven interventions (like diet, exercise and limiting alcohol intake) in favor of some magic pill that they are encouraged to believe will solve all their problems."

exactly the same thing can be said for taking medications, many people use them this way instead of doing other things in conjunction. You can not stop people from trying to take the easy way out if that is how they approach their health, but to assume that this is the norm is not giving people credit for having the ability to take their health more seriously than that. e.g. if steph did not take her health seriously, she wouldnt bother with eating sensibly and exercise, vinegar may have been the component which tipped the scales for her.

steph is simply doing what people do, whether it be medication or alternative therapy, she is reporting her own observations, just like I did with the vitamin c, that is how people determine whether something is working or not, by observation, the same way people observe changes in their body good or bad with regular medications. your interpretation of this is slanted though, if it's herbal or alternative, you automatically assume it doesnt work and that any improvement is due to other things.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

I have not suggested that people take medications to lose weight, rather that proven methods for losing weight involve lifestyle changes (i.e. exercise and diet).

I think you're the one with the agenda here, going on about drugs which are not relevant to the subject of weight loss*.

Feel free to depend on testimonials and anecdotes. Many of us take our health more seriously than that.

*By the way, codeine and paracetamol are not generally available in over the counter medications in the U.S.

"I'm not sure what point you're trying to make."

my point is your double standard towards herbal or alternative treatments. you keep repeating the same arguements over and over about them, without even noticing that these same arguements apply to all medications, not just herbal.

"I think you're the one with the agenda here, going on about drugs which are not relevant to the subject of weight loss*."

and every time someone makes a point you cant disagree with you accuse the poster of going off topic. I could accuse you of having the agenda for spending so much time in a herbal forum just to naysay and criticise every post you read

"*By the way, codeine and paracetamol are not generally available in over the counter medications in the U.S."

so what? does that mean if people live in countries like I do where these medications are freely available over the counter, it doesnt count if it makes them sick? I noticed you left out ibuprofen which is probably one of the most commonly used these days and one of the most underestimated IMO.

"Feel free to depend on testimonials and anecdotes. Many of us take our health more seriously than that."

eric you assume everyone here is looking for a quick fix, you dont know me, you dont know what health issues I have to deal with or how I have dealt with them, so dont try and tell me how seriously I take my health.

I request that you stop mischaracterizing my statements here and elsewhere on the forum.

I do not have a "double standard" towards alternative treatments; I've repeatedly said they should be judged by the same standards as mainstream therapies - whether or not there is solid evidence that they work, not selective testimonials and advertising hype. When it comes to cider vinegar and the vast array of claims made for it, anecdotes and ad hype are about all the "evidence" that exists.

Your posts follow a well-worn path in this forum - when inconvenient facts (or the lack of them) are pointed out, the response all too often is to try to change the subject or attack the poster presenting the evidence.

These tactics are a sure sign that the poster using them has nothing meaningful to contribute,

If you have any evidence to cite regarding cider vinegar and weight loss I'd be happy to discuss it.

I just started the ACV diet yesterday 3/12/13 and I feel better already. I have more energy. I have spinal stenosis and 4 buldging discs in the lower part of my back so heavy or even moderate exercise is not an option for me.I will keep you all posted on my weekly results.

What is this apple cider vinegar diet about? I use it to gargle and freshen my breath and used it as a deodorant... But...

Joe

Hi Joe,
It is helping people loose weight. I use 1 tablespoon of apple cider vinegar with a little bit of apple juice at the same time I eat so we will see in a week. Good luck all.
shckrswife

So it's really not a diet... I would think the fresh apple juice would do more than the ACV. Did you get this from Mr.Bragg in his books or ? I heard that his fasting book and others were really good... Don't know about this "diet"... I hope you aren't getting the gallon plastic jugs, as apple cider vinegar is acidic and the plastic would leach into it! As for true weight loss, I advise you to lookup "Dr.Robert Morse" on YouTube.. You need to address the cause of the problem, not treat the symptom... Any questions, let me know.. Wish you good luck... Let me know how it goes... By the way, what are you going to be consuming diet wise?

Joe

Vinegar is a component of salad dressings, so if you used ACV to make relatively low-calorie dressings and ate lots of salads instead of high-calorie foods, you'd probably lose weight. Or if you drank a lot of vinegar, it'd taste nasty enough so that your appetite could be affected and you'd lose weight.

Otherwise, for a diet plan as for the other "wonder" uses of ACV, it's massively overhyped.