gailozarks

Apply Cider Vinegar - Why?

gailozarks
18 years ago

Since no one is supposed to comment in the other post on Apple Cider Vinegar other than saying whether it worked or not, I would like to know what you use it for. I've never used it so am very curious.

Comments (93)

  • rusty_blackhaw
    14 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Bile reflux does happen - but it's a small percentage of reflux sufferers, tends to be associated with conditions like peptic ulcers and previous surgery, and often coexists with acid reflux.

    Since the stomach pH is generally quite low to begin with, even with some bile refluxing into it, it's hard to see how drinking a mild acid substance like vinegar would have any effect on stomach pH. The worry again is that even mild acid has potential for damaging the esophagus.

    As I've noticed, reflux symptoms tend to come and go and severity varies a lot, so it's hard to validate any home remedy based on isolated testimonials.

  • snoggerboy
    14 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I have been taking ACV now since 2004. My regime is to take about 1 tablespoon Mixture of ACV and Honey first thing when I get up. I take it with a Glass of warm water. Then go about making Bfast etc. I have noticed fewer colds, less Low Bloodsugar episodes, bloodtests show lowered cholesterol levels (although still high-ish)
    In general I feel it a very positive and very natural regime.

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  • aclott
    14 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I don't know if ACV is good for any thing except salad dressings, but drinking it still has to be safer than coke products lol

  • rusty_blackhaw
    14 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Coke is somewhat acidic (though less so than the acid normally in your stomach) and soft drinks in general may worsen reflux symptoms in some people. This doesn't mean that drinking vinegar (which is mostly acetic acid) is a good idea either.

    Numerous old stories about Coca-Cola being hazardous (supposedly having the power to dissolve teeth etc.) have turned out to be urban legends.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "Do I have that about right?" No.

    I have never suggested that anyone who believes in cider vinegar as a remedy is "nuts", only that there is no real evidence that it does anything useful - only testimonials, pro and con.

    "It would seem to me that the scientific method requires the scientist to make personal observations, a kind of testimonial if you will, about the hypothesis being tested."

    Testimonials, even those coming from scientists, are not reliable. Controlled studies in large groups of people are what scientific method requires, and even those need to be repeated to make sure the results are accurate.
    I have had periods of acid reflux, but in the past couple of months very few symptoms. The only thing different recently is that I've had quite a few Xmas treats, including stollen. Maybe I should claim that eating stollen is good for acid reflux. I suspect, though, that it's coincidence, the same as for people who think cider vinegar is effective for reflux. Reflux symptoms come and go, and it's easy to give credit or blame to something that doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

    I think edennc misunderstands Occam's Razor (OR). OR is not some immutable law, but an observation that simple explanations generally are more likely to be correct than complicated ones. If OR has any value at all in this instance, it is to suggest that rather than a complicated explanation for cider vinegar's supposed value (that drinking a mild acid helps a condition caused by acid), the likely explanation for it seeming to help is coincidence, as mentioned earlier.

  • Rosemarino
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    My mom gave me Dr. Jarvis' book "Vermont Folk Medicine" sort of as a joke on our annual visit to the Vermont Country Store this year. It has been laying around the house now for a couple of months and I recently picked it up and I have to admit (rather ashamedly--I do so have a little crush on Eric's logical and sardonic approach to the other post on ACV) that I found it so inspiring! I had a bad cold and sinus infection and as I was reading the book one morning I began to determine that I would try ACV and honey immediately. I also read in the book about weight loss, and while according to Dr. Jarvis' Vermont calculations I am already at my ideal weight, I was intrigued. About six years ago I had the same sort of response to the silly (and yet, oddly spot-on) book "Eat Right for Your Type" book on blood types and healthful eating. I've been doing the vinegar doseage (2tsp 3x daily) for almost a week and one thing that I have noticed is increased energy. I am a chef at a gourmet take-out shop where we not only cook but clean our shop daily, and by the end of the day I'm usually using the mop as a crutch. After the vinegar (Eric! Forgive me!) I've been traipsing it around the floor like I'm dancing with Fred Astaire. My co-workers are calling me the bionic woman. I don't know about weight loss. Probably since I don't have anything I really need to lose, I won't notice anything in that area, but I'll let anyone know.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Well, according to the link I posted earlier in this thread, cider vinegar is good for both weight loss and weight gain, so anything could happen.

    The site also claims that cider vinegar relieves fatigue and nervousness, so all bases are covered there as well.

    Or maybe you're experiencing a sugar high from the honey. :)

  • decolady01
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Eric, looking at all your examples of extremes, perhaps apple cider vinegar is a neutralizer.

    Becky

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Here's an interesting commentary on acid-base balance (belief vs. reality).

  • shaelee
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Perhaps one of the benefits is the potassium and other minerals found in the ACV that are readily absorbed into the system in balanced proportion for easy assimilation. Potassium is often lacking in the diet and us necessary for many internal processes.

    I too have done personal tests with ACV, raw honey and cayenne at the onset of any sickness- be it that or other lifestyle choices, I know not- but I either do not get sick or am well much sooner than anyone else around me that gets the same bug (like 1 night versus 1 week flu).

  • oakleif
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I don't know abt the proof of interior use of acetic acid. I recently developed bursitus and was sent for phisacal therapy at hospital where they used acedic acid on small pads and applied small electrodes as therapy for the pain and then heat pads with acetic acid pads still in place. It did wonders.
    oakleif

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    What oakleif mentions sounds like iontophoresis, where an electrical current is used to help in absorption of drugs into soft tissues. Acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) has been employed in this way to try to decrease calcium deposits in some conditions - with variable results.
    This isn't something you can do at home, though (although heating pads, which can relieve pain are available at drugstores).

    Here is a link that might be useful: Iontophoresis

  • alicia_2007
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I was hoping the person who starting getting acid reflux after taking the ACV had found a solution. I have taken ACV with water and honey for 3 days and have been experiencing terrible acid reflux...which I never had before...it's terrible and am open to any suggestions to help.

    Thanks!

  • lucy
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Stop taking it?

  • alicia_2007
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Haha! I did stop taking it...the day I posted. It took until this morning for the acid reflux problem to stop. Hopefully it will not come back.

  • buffburd
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Some think that the logical solution to having too much acid in the stomach is to take something to reduce the acid. But the body's likely reaction to a influx of basic (anti-acid) materials would seem to be to create more acid, exactly what you don't want.

    So it makes some sense that by providing a dose of acid now and again would limit the production of additional acid, since the body knows that acid is already present.

    A good movie, not a documentary as far as I know, but illustrative of the concept, is Lorenzo's Oil.

    http://imdb.com/title/tt0104756/

    The general concept of the movie is that Lorenzo has a disease where a certain type of food oil in anything but minimal amounts causes severe destruction to his brain. The initial approach adopted by doctors was to reduce the food inputs of this type of oil. Initial results were promising, but soon his body starting producing more of the oil itself (to correct the balance), and his condition worsened. His parents did some research and came up with an idea, give Lorenzo massive doses of another type of food oil, so that his body would stop producing the bad kind of oil.

    Its an interesting point of view and worth thinking about at least.

    I also included a link to a fable that illustrates this point more simply.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Persuasion is better than force.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    The logic behind diets to limit reflux is that certain foods or beverages either stimulate acid production in the stomach, or may irritate an already damaged esophagus (the tube leading to the stomach).

    Vinegar of all kinds is a relatively mild acid that hasn't been shown to significantly affect acid production in the stomach. What it may do if taken in large amounts is irritate the lining of the esophagus, especially if there's esophageal damage already from highly acidic gastric contents refluxing back into the esophagus.

    It's not good to take frequent doses of antacids long term, not because it will have a dramatic rebound effect on acid production in the stomach, but because it could potentially cause diarrhea and other problems.

    Vinegar in small amounts in the diet is fine (see recommendations here). There's just no evidence that it does anything beyond possibly hurting the esophagus, which is the source of acid reflux pain.

  • xamia
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Can I just make it clear to everyone that apple cider vinegar does in no way cause weight loss. The acid from the vinegar does not help 'melt fat away', as some diets claim. If anything the acid would actually help break down fats - making them easier for the body to absorb. Apple cider vinegar does not cause weight loss. The end.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    In one study, cider vinegar pills were analyzed and some manufacturers' products were found to have little or no vinegar components.

    Even if this company's supplement contains what they claim it does, the fact that it's making false claims for the product gives you good reason to steer clear of them.

  • lorna-organic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    It is possible to cause acidosis through taking too much apple cider vinegar. A symptom for acidosis would be extreme bad breath. The solution would be to reduce the amount of acv consumed.

    During perimenopause I experienced a yeast outbreak. I spoke to a field biologist friend about my problem with the yeast, because seeing a doctor had been less than satisfactory. One thing the biologist suggested was to take a tsp. of apple cider vinegar in water. (I had a long-term outbreak of yeast in the creases where my legs join my body--very painful.) The man also suggested daily application of rubbing alcohol on the affected areas to kill the yeast. His advice worked. I finally conquered that nasty yeast.

    The biologist, by the way, had Arabian horses. One of his horses was prone to kidney stones. A new vet said that the horse needed apple cider vinegar poured onto his feed to prevent the formation of the kidney stones. The owner followed the vet's advice, and the horse never had another kidney stone.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Here's a good discussion of common misconceptions about acid-base balance in the human body.

  • grumples_gmail_com
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Wouldn't it be lovely if ACV in a glass of water twice a day rid us of excess pounds. I'm disgusted by the people who claim in this thread they've lost 5-14 lbs in a week using ACV pills. This is just BS. If they lost any weight at all, it's water weight, not fat. It takes a lot of energy to lose a pound of fat. If one consumes fewer calories than one burns one may lose 1-2 lbs every seven days. But that's diligently restricting calories and exercising i.e. getting your heart rate up and sweating and panting for at least 30 minutes a day. At least. There are no quick fixes.

    Personally I love my organic ACV. I use it in salads and in my bath water. Occasionally I have a glass (gives me a nice tingle). I'm sure it's not hurting me, and probably does contribute to my well being. But when I gain weight it's because I'm consuming too much and not exercising enough, ACV or no ACV.

  • apollog
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    There is no doubt that acetic acid is one of the things in vinegar, but it would be premature to reduce vinegar to merely an acetic acid solution, Eric. Red wine is not merely a dilute ethanol solution; it has other ingredients that have important pharmacological effects.

    Fermented vinegar likely contains other products related to the Krebs cycle. When the starting solution is apple cider, there may be significant amounts of quercetin and quercetrin or metabolically activated versions of those chemicals. As a probiotic/fermented food, it may have significant amounts of bacterial protein that may influence the immune system (there are a number of studies that show that fermented foods appear to lower the risk of respiratory infections in children).

    Distilled vinegar, the most common type in the stores, is distilled from petroleum or natural gas. It is unlikely that such imitation vinegar (vinegar meaning 'sour wine') is a significant source of probiotic proteins or complex organic molecules. It has acetic acid, and might have a few related simple compounds, depending on how it is distilled.

    Here's an interesting article that found that acetate, butyrate and propionate are all anti-inflammatory compounds, and that they may be of use in treating inflammatory bowel disease. Acetic acid is acetate, and naturally fermented vinegar contains signficant amounts of butyrate and propionate (in many fermented foods, the amount of butyric+propionic acids = 1/3 or 1/2 the amount of acetic acid that is present).

    Here is a link that might be useful: Anti-inflammatory Properties of Acetate, Butyrate and Propionate

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Lots of maybes and could bes in there.

    I see all kinds of vinegar in the stores - wine vinegars, cider vinegars, vinegar with herbs, plain unfancy vinegar etc. The only thing that seems to be special about apple cider vinegar is that a folksy country doctor-type wrote a book decades ago extolling it as a wonder cure for arthritis and various other things, and the bandwagon pretty much got rolling from there.

    There is nothing to show that cider vinegar has more "good stuff" in it than other vinegars, or that any particular ingredients are present in the right form and quantity to treat any kind of disease.

    As wonder nostrums go, it's fairly cheap and reasonably safe, if you don't overdo it. The real harm is mostly when people see it as a shortcut to whatever health goal they have (reducing reflux, losing weight etc.), and use it in place of the lifestyle and diet changes that actually have a good chance of being effective.

  • apollog
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Yes, there should be lots of maybes and maybes. The world is complex and it hasn't been adequately studied by science.

    But the paper I linked to (you can get the full text from a link on the abstract) actually does state that solutions containing butyrate and propionate have been successfully used to treat inflammatory bowel disease. If we accept the idea that vinegar is a generic equivalent, and that the acetate also has similar properties, then it merely becomes an issue of establishing an adequate, tolerable dose. If people with subclinical conditions and minor aches and pains can get relief from adding a dollop of vinegar to their diet, I say great.

    As far as distinguishing between cider vinegar and other forms of vinegar, I don't think that is nearly as important a distinction as between real (fermented) vinegars and the imitation stuff that .

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "Yes, there should be lots of maybes and maybes. The world is complex and it hasn't been adequately studied by science."

    That's what science is for - reducing the ifs and maybes. If cider vinegar enthusiasts can come up with something besides anecdotes (which cut both ways), terrific.

    When it comes to something as important as one's health, taking chances based on ifs and maybes doesn't make sense.

  • apollog
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Sure, real science is about reducing the uncertainty. But dismissing things out of hand is not science.

    Vinegar enthusiasts 'have come up with something more than anecdotes'?? I just provided a solid study that shows that vinegar contains three anti-inflammatory substances that have successfully been used to treat IBD. They reduce a number of cytokines that are over-expressed in arthritis, psoriasis, and other diseases.

    Your response? FUD - fear, uncertainty, doubt. Not based on any evidence, but based on the fact that science hasn't gotten around to looking at those issues, combined with a preconceived notion that it must be nonsense to begin with.

    Does it help with psoriasis or arthritis? I don't know. The studies aren't there. But there is a very plausible mechanism that might account for some of these anecdotes that vinegar helps with arthritis. What are the guidelines for using anti-inflammatory foods to treat arthritis or a headache or some other condition? Lots of research out there on various dietary approaches to common complaints, but individual response varies and science doesn't hold all the answers.

  • lorna-organic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Sensible stuff, apollog. I worked at the University of California Berkeley for twenty-seven years. I saw first-hadn how studies can be skewed both for reasons political and because a researcher didn't do good thinking in setting up the premise for the research.

    For example, one Ph.D. in Optometry began a study on peripheral vision deterioration in older folks. As he told me about the premise for his new study, I inquired why he hadn't thought about the effect of eye exercises on peripheral vision? He looked at me blankly. I demonstrated a couple of eye exercises, and explained to him that these exercises had increased my peripheral vision. (I was in my thirties at that time.) The doctor was dumbfounded. He thanked me, and said he was going to have to rethink things. Mentioning that his first step would be to try the exercises himself.

    Many times studies are so narrowly focused that they prove worthless in the long run. The fact that numerous factors were not considered eventually comes to light, causing negation of the original findings.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "I just provided a solid study that shows that vinegar contains three anti-inflammatory substances that have successfully been used to treat IBD."

    The study abstract you linked to refers to measurement of certain compounds in tissue cultures from mice. It does not show that these compounds can be used to treat inflammatory bowel disease in humans. It doesn't even show that they are useful to treat the mouse equivalent of IBD. It also doesn't mention vinegar.

    When you see a supplement touted as being effective based on a "scientific study", it pays to look closely at what that study really involves. Studies that are not based on well-designed human clinical trials are not to be trusted as tools for marketing supplements or drugs.

    Your response? FUD - fear, uncertainty, doubt.

    You can label it that if you wish. Lots of people long for a magic bullet that will cure all manner of ills. Having seen lots of of diets and supplement pills promoted this way and then fallen by the wayside, I maintain a healthy skepticism where evidence is lacking.

    By the way, exercises have a very limited role in helping eye problems. Exercise-based eye quackery flourishes, though.

  • apollog
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Actually, the study says "Importantly, several clinical studies demonstrate beneficial effects of butyrate in IBD."

    And then it goes on to demonstrate that acetate and propionate have similar effects.

    No, it doesn't mention vinegar. Just acetate, butryate and propionate, which are the primary ingredients of vinegar. Should we assume that this generic form of AcBuPr has none of the effects of the stuff studied in the lab? I thought an article of faith among the medical community is that the generic form of a chemical is equivalent to any proprietary form - that once the effects of a chemical are proved, it doesn't matter where it comes from provided it is the same stuff.

    I'm not marketing miracle vinegar products - I'm interested whether ordinary vinegar from the supermarket might be useful for my health. Given the lack of patentability for vinegar, I don't think we'll soon see the type of large scale, double-blind, placebo controlled studies on humans that you deem essential.

    Here's a link to an interesting study that found that short chained fatty acids like AcBuPr increase leptin production. I'm not saying that Pompei Brand Red Wine Vinegar is a miracle weight loss product, but the possibility of changing the body's chemistry to produce more leptin (which signals satiety and reduces eating) might be a good thing. Given the cost and safety associated with adding a bit of vinegar to my evening salad instead of adding ranch or blue cheese dressing, I just might give it a try. Even in the absence of conclusive proof.

    It won't negate other principles of dieting (like eating less) but it just might make it easier to eat less.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Inverse regulation of leptin mRNA expression by short- and long-chain fatty acids in the cultured bovine adipocytes.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I'm not sure where you're getting the conclusions about IBD to which you refer (the abstract you linked to doesn't mention them), but assuming there eventually turns out to be a significant role for these compounds in treating inflammatory bowel disease:

    We'd still need evidence they are present in sufficient amounts in vinegar (any kind of vinegar) to be medically useful in inflammatory bowel disease.
    We'd also need to know if these substances would be broken down in the body by digestion so that they'd be useless in treating IBD.
    It could be that these substances are present in other foods in greater concentrations and more available forms than in vinegar.
    And so on.

    Lots of ifs and maybes.

    Of course, treating inflammatory bowel disease is not the reason people have jumped on the cider vinegar bandwagon (obesity and arthritis are two of the more common conditions for which people drink it, although there are claims for virtually any disease process you could mention). There's still no good evidence the stuff works on IBD, obesity, arthritis, or any of the other "subclinical conditions and minor aches and pains" for which you're promoting it.

    "Given the lack of patentability for vinegar, I don't think we'll soon see the type of large scale, double-blind, placebo controlled studies on humans that you deem essential. "

    This overlooks the vast amount of research that's been done and is still ongoing on non-patentable drugs and supplements, such as aspirin, vitamins, black cohosh, St. John's Wort etc etc.
    The study you cited on butyrate et al, by the way, was produced by people affiliated with AstraZeneca. Since you can't patent a short-chain fatty acid like butyrate, why's Big Pharma doing research on it? Mystery of mysteries...

    Oh, and by the way - the medical and scientific community shies away from assumptions and articles of faith. It's one major factor separating evidence-based medicine from alt. med.

  • lorna-organic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Very few institutions would fund a study which would prove that something as simple and inexpensive as apple cider vinegar actually does this, that or the other. Science has become a capitalistic enterprise. Many old-school scientists believe that funding has become a moral and ethical dilimma. The faculty at UC Berkeley holds debates on the subject. Sadly, the bottom line is that the people holding the purse strings, the funding agencies, ultimately have the most power.

    The Department of Chemistry at UC Berkeley is now largely funded by oil companies. The folks providing the funding get to choose what studies are done, and how those studies will be conducted. The funders can prevent proven results from being reported, if it does not suit their purpose. That is a form of skewing reports or data, which is definitely not in the best interest of the public.

    Drug companies have a vested interest in keeping the public on prescription drugs. They don't want people to be able to cure themselves with herbal remedies, or natural substances. Herbal remedies cut into the profits of the drug companies because herbals cannot be controlled by drug companies.

    Marijuana can cure glaucoma, but the drug companies cannot control marijuana because it is easily grown. In most cases of natural substances, which have been declared unlawful, the drug companies are behind those laws having been put on the books. Laetril is another example.

    According to a film I saw in the early 70s, "Detail Men", which refers to the drug company employees who promote drugs to the medical profession, drug companies are no longer doing research which would result in a cure for anything. The focus is on researching drugs which people will take for life. For instance, there will never be a cure for diabetes, because insulin is a big money maker. Why would drug companies want to provide a cure, when that would undermine their profit base? Hypertension drugs are another big money maker, as are the cholesterol drugs.

    Studies have been published which state that the drug companies control the medical schools and the curriiculum. Therefore, they control what doctors are taught to believe and to prescribe. There is a mavrick group called Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM). PCRM provides some interesting reports, much of which contradicts what the AMA espouses or endorses.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "Very few institutions would fund a study which would prove that something as simple and inexpensive as apple cider vinegar actually does this, that or the other."

    As indicated in my previous post, lots of studies have been and are being done on a large range of supplements and "natural" therapies by major institutions. This includes herbs. The National Cancer Institute (via the National Center on Complementary and Alternative Medicine) is spending millions of dollars on research. The amount of money out there available for medical research is finite, and naturally the most promising therapies are most likely to get funding support. Sometimes alternative/traditional/folklore remedies are supported by research. Often they are not. One can choose to believe that the underlying reason is a conspiracy by the Medical Establishment, or accept that folklore is often wrong.

    Other statements in lorna's last post are well beyond the scope of apple cider vinegar, but I'll briefly mention that marijuana does not "cure" glaucoma, regulations banning sale of certain "natural substances" are in effect because they are useless and/or dangerous, not because of evil Big Pharma, and laetrile has fallen into deserved obscurity, because it is ineffective against cancer.

    The link listed below is a good source of information on the abundant research currently being done on unpatentable herbs and supplements.

    Here is a link that might be useful: PubMed

  • lorna-organic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    You have no proof of your statements about laetril or marijuana, Eric. The tone of your delivery is meant to belittle my opinion, experience and knowledge. What makes you behave that way?

    I've done my homework in well-rounded fashion. I know that the drug companies have curtailed helpful substances because of vested interest, and that reporting and research can be skewed.

    A scientific survey is worded to produce desired results. Research protocol is designed to produce desired results.
    Disinformation is just as prevalent in society as real information. I know this from personal experience in a major university environment.

    I've seen famous scientists exhibit jealousy, resulting in back-stabbing techniques aimed at undermining the work and/or credibility of their colleagues. As you point out, Eric, funding sources are limited. When a number of scientists are going after a limited amount of funding, some of them are going to play down and dirty in an effort to be the one who wins the funding.

    I've seen one famous researcher brought to his knees by the Feds because of conducting wrongful research. His arrogant malfeasance cost the entire university research community dearly. I've also seen scientists support each other. Some of my favorites are paleo-anthropologists who research the origins of man, and natural history field biologists.

    I daresay, Eric, you have not spent a career working in a major university. I have twenty-seven years of university experience. I daresay you do not have experience working in the medical field. I have eight years hands-on experience. Clearly you do not have a background in herbal study. I have thirty-six years of herbal study and experience. (I am fifty-four years old.) When I do research, I evalulate all sides of an issue. I do not jump on the first thing which apparently supports what I would prefer to believe. It is in my best interest to properly evaluate all pros and cons.

    I very much appreciate the thoughtful approach many posters take to exploring an issue. I enjoy discussing things. I appreciate an exchange of information, opinions, ideas and experience. I thank those of you who conduct yourselves with the purpose of sharing information, thoughtfulness, good grace, and civility. You folks make my day!

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Laetrile quackery.

    Marijuana does not "cure" glaucoma. (there's limited evidence that it has a short-term effect on intraocular pressure, but is not a cure).

    "I daresay, Eric, you have not spent a career working in a major university."

    My career includes being on the faculty of a major university.

    "I daresay you do not have experience working in the medical field."

    I'm a practicing physician.

    "Clearly you do not have a background in herbal study."

    I do.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist responding to your appeal to authority. However, that tack (along with espousing conspiracy theories and personally attacking other posters) tends to go over poorly in this forum. What impresses most people is good solid evidence.


  • celcius
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    There is a proper way to use ACv that is beneficial too good health it raises your pH level and mineralizes your body!
    In a 12oz glass of water, preferably filtered or distilled ass one tblspn of ACV ,one tblspn of BSM(blackstrap molasses a pinch or two of Magnesium Sulphate(epsom salts)
    and Coral Calcium in the amount you desire!
    This is a tried and true energy drink that may bring you amazinf results if you give it time! Some see results immediatly ,others it may take a week or two! Drink it slowly at first sipping it through out the day !
    There are many sutudies that show the value and nutritional value of ACV and these other ingredience these just two below!

    ~Celcius

    Scientists have measured 90 different bioactive substances in ACV, such as 13 types of carbolic acids, four aldehydes, 20 ketones, 18 types of alcohols and eight ethyl acetates. ACV provides enzymes and important minerals and trace elements such as potassium, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous, chlorine, sodium, sulfur, copper, iron, silicon, fluorine and other trace minerals. ACV's vitamin content includes vitamin C, vitamin E, vitamin A, vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B6, beta-carotene and vitamin P (bioflavonoids). ACV also contains malic acid, acetic acid, tartaric acid, propionic acid, lactic acid, numerous enzymes and amino acids, as well as roughage in the form of potash and apple pectin.

    The secret of ACV's amazing nutritional value goes beyond the nutritious apples that form its basis and comes from the fermentation of apple juice to hard apple cider, followed by a second fermentation to ACV itself. This natural product retains all the nutritional goodness of the apples from which it was made, and it's also fortified with the extra acids and enzymes produced during the two fermentation steps. It's the sum of all these ingredients that give ACV its amazing health benefits. Be aware that if you choose to buy white distilled vinegar, it has none of these beneficial constituents

    http://www.kitchenmedicinebook.com/016806.html

    http://www.geocities.com/pathways2eden/ph_balance.html

  • celcius
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I tried to edit my message for spelling error and tried to repost twice and was rejected! This is the most rediculous forum to navigate I have ever been on ! I doubt I will post here again! I apologize for the spelling errors! I have tried to post my message now six or seven times and was either deleted or rejected! Good luck folks to those who try to post on this forum!
    Celcius

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    There's no edit function available to users to correct posts. You could request one in the Suggestions forum.

    "Apple cider vinegar is anything but a storehouse of nutrients. A nutritional analysis of one tablespoon (more than the one or two teaspoons suggested to make a tonic) reveals that the golden liquid contains less than a gram of carbohydrate: minuscule amounts of calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium. copper, manganese, and phosphorus; and a mere 15 mg of potassium. The fiber, vitamin, and amino acid content is zero."

    Link.

  • oakleif
    12 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    eric and opollo

  • zzackey
    9 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I have been able to buy cloudy cider vinegar at the grocery store. It is alot cheaper and works just as well. I mix 1 tsp. of cider vinegar with 1 teaspoon of honey. I'm surprised I like the taste of it! It has to be cloudy to have the Mother in it...alive with the healing powers.

  • rusty_blackhaw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    What cloudy bacteria is "alive" with is bacteria (the same ones that convert alcohol in wine to acetic acid) that are creating a carbohydrate byproduct. The cloudy gunk is called "the mother" because it can be used to make more vinegar.

    Interestingly, cooks who see it are mostly concerned that it will impair the taste of their vinegar, but it can be removed.

    "Some vinegars, if stored improperly or too long, will develop a cloudy look. This cloudy substance (called "mother of vinegar" since it can be used to make more vinegar) can be filtered out with a paper coffee filter in order to salvage the vinegar. However, if either the mother or the vinegar smells bad or rotten, discard both immediately."

  • zzackey
    9 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    we have found the mother in store bought vinegar. Just look for cloudiness that means it is alive. Somehow it misses the process to eliminate it! When I drink 1 tablespoon of apple cider vinegar with 1 tablespoon on honey and about 1/2 cup of hot water my joint pain goes away. We used to always buy Bragg's apple cider vinegar at the health food store, but we have found if you can find cloudy apple cider vinegar at the grocery store it works the same and it is a heck of alot cheaper!

  • BR549dawn
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    My grandmother used to take acv for whatever "ailed" her. There are so many posts... good for you, not good for you! Helps to lose weight. Don't help! I started sipping on some yesterday. I have Lupus, hypothyroidism, diabetes, degenerative arthritis and have lots of pain. I guess I'll just see for myself...how it works!

  • dlmbrt
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Billyboy posted, "I am in the process of trying Bragg's Organic Unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar with the Mother to remedy my acid reflux problem. As a singer, this problem has been detrimental to my career. However, I've been mixing the vinegar with an equal amount of honey and 1 cup of water. does anyone know if the honey will weaken the effectiveness of the vinegar? I would truly appreciate any help... thank you everyone who has contributed to this forum. I found it very infomative and helpful."

    Two tablespoons each of ACV and honey in a glass of water is an old folk remedy for whatever ails ya. I grew up drinking it, and I'm still drinking it in my 60s. I am in ridiculously good health.

  • kk1515
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    ozark gail,

    hi neighbor! i'm an herb and gardening fanatic from the ozarks too, nw arkansas, but living in colorado for a couple years while doing an apprenticeship here. even tho i'm enjoying my time in the rockies sure do miss my ozark home. where are you located?

    kk

    ps gardening here at high altitude with low annual rainfall is proving challenging, everything dries out so quickly. the bright side (pun intended) is that plants love the intense sunlight we have up in the mountains.

  • LazyLassie
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Hey!

    One thing to remember about ACV and other home remedies is that they have been effective for thousands of years, and in my book that's a lot of empirical evidence, AKA science. Think of "modern drugs," such as the lowly aspirin based on the biochemistry of Willow Bark, in many cases are pharmacological equivalents of these natural medicines.�

    As someone pointed out, modern medicines (and their drug company manufacturers) are motivated by profit. Synthesizing natural components allows these folks to use the empirical history of these common folk medicines to produce safe drugs that they can fancy up with a quasi Latin/Greek/Utopian name and call it a breakthrough: Avandia, Lyrika, etc �

    There's a wonderful book out there titled Anti-Cancer: A New Way of Life by David Servan-Schreiber. He explains the biology of cancer. Simply put, �the body becomes "inflamed" (think arthritis, infections, bad colds), weakening the body. In this environment, wild cancer cells which we all have (and more created all the time by environmental carcinogens as "free radicals") settle down in weak parts of the inflamed body. The microtumors then start to grow, especially helped by high blood sugar.�

    Servan-Schreiber explains the profound effect of diet in this process, namely that the Western high fat-high carb/sugar/high salt diet produces many of the preconditions of cancer and that eating foods that have anti-inflammatory and free radical-controlling properties can nip cancers in the bud and even reduce tumors' size. He explains the biochemistry of these factors and HOW they work.�

    My point is that these long-lived "home remedies" can work, including ACV, by balancing the body so that our diseases of excess can be mitigated.�

    Yes, everyone's results may differ. This goes with any allopathic medication as well.�

    For me, ACV has already (positively) affected my blood sugar and energy level. My daughter has been using it and it cleared up her acne. I'm hopeful about the weight loss and other benefits, realizing some of tge benefits may take a while.�

    On another note, the book Sugar Blues documents the transformation of beet/cane sugar from luxury item (1600s through ca. mid-1800s) to increasingly available (industrialization + British imperialism/trade) general food enhancer. In the late 1800s sugar was declared to be a poison, probably because of all those rotten teeth, diabetes, and other side effects. Then - surprise, surprise - the sugar lobby (probably one of the first with all those tropical perqs - cheap labor, rich tropical land, etc.) had thaw law reversed. Soon the Western world was awash in candy, cheap pastries (think: twinkles, those nasty artificial mass produced chocolate chip cookies) and sugar enhanced foods (ketchup, hot dogs, French fries, etc.).�

    So when in doubt grow your own food and make it yourself. Ever tasted a sun-warmed tomato? �There is absolutely no resemblance to the hard, flavorless things in the grocery store. I just made a (sooooo simple) batch of pickles, nothing like what Safeway has to offer.�

    The point is if you make it or grow, your food doesn't need all that sugar, salt, and fat to make it taste good. �Trust your own taste buds and don't trust those seductive dietary demons.�

    Sent from my iPod

  • rusty_blackhaw
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "Yes, everyone's results may differ. This goes with any allopathic medication as well."

    What about aspirin (not to mention lots of other "allopathic" drugs)? Its success is based on being effective for practically everyone.

    I wish "thousands of years" of anecdotal use made a drug or supplement safe and effective, but given the poor records and short life spans of our ancestors, it's risky to judge a product on the basis of folklore.

    By the way, Servan-Schreiber died of cancer at age 50.

  • theherbalist2012
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Eric:

    What's the latest modern statistics for the increased life span contributed by modern medicine. I'm curious.

    thanks.

    theherbalist

  • rusty_blackhaw
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    There's some information for you here Charlie, and I'm sure you could find more via a Google search (including the continuing decline in cancer deaths). Discussion might be more apt somewhere other than an herbalism forum, though.

  • theherbalist2012
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Eric:

    Article says " In 2007, life expectancy in the United States reached a high of nearly 78 years, up from 77.7 a year earlier." I'm not sure the article attributes the longer life expectancy to modern medicine, though.

    Regardless, here's something interesting: "In themselves the days of our years are seventy years. And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years." Psalms 90:10.
    Apparently, man is living the number of years that were established long before modern medicine's influence was felt.

    My uncle died last year at the age of 104 in Pennsylvania. He never took a pharmaceutical. But he did drink an extract of poke berries every day. More importantly, he said that he never over-ate. When he was full, he stopped. I believe that in itself greatly added to his longevity.

    Thank you, Eric, for looking up that article for me.

    charlie
    theherbalist

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