Well, JMO, why don't you contact Spike and do something about it. Why not throw half of us off this forum, because we do some things in concrete and some things in hypertufa and sometimes both. Half the people I used to enjoy talking to here and experimenting with are gone, anyway. So you might as well take over and run this ship how you please. I will just go outside and make some things using cement mixed anyway I please because it is fun, it relieves my stress, and my garden benefits from it. I am not in the business of making things to sell. I don't need to add to my stress, anymore. Have a good life. And that's Just My Opinion.

When I posted pictures of my first pot here I received emails from regulars saying my pot was concrete, not Tufa and didn't belong here.
I was told to go to Garden Accoutrements, or find a concrete forum.
Since then I have displayed very little of my concrete work here knowing that I face the possibility of losing my account due to complaints.

I feel there is room here for all types of concrete art as long as it is clearly defined so newbies are less confused and try to do things with tufa that aren't really possible.

JMO, When I first started I was making my leaves with the tufa recipe and they didn't look the same as the others, It actually took me a while to find out what other people were using. I was very confused :( I think we should have in there so people like me don't feel discorauge and quit. AL

I agree, it can be very confusing.
It is really easy to come to this group and think the beautiful leaves posted here are made from Hypertufa.
I didn't think requesting a modification to the FAQ about this would invite a personal attack.
There are more posts here about leaf casting than any other during summer months.
It just common sense for heavens sake that this issue be addressed prominently in the FAQ to save folks from making discouraging mistakes that can be easily avoided.

I started to have fun with hypertufa 10 years ago without knowing anything about it, only a short instruction from a magazine. Never knew anybody who done anything with tufa. My first huge rhubarb leaf is still perfect.

I do not need somebody to tell me constantly how to do things better.

I do not want somebody to put his or her nose everywhere and comment on everything because they think they are the "experts" .

I enjoy to see different people's work, have new ideas from them, but to see the same person to comment on everything, posting again, again and pushing ideas is very boring.

We are not confused about anything, making tufa is not heart surgery, next time we make it better.

Very easy to see who are the talented artist, we can ask them if we need help.

Andrea

Whoa . . . I'm brand new to this forum, previously spending time in other forums. I wanted to find out about leaf casting, and this thread has sure made me feel that this is a hostile place to be, unlike other places in garden web.

My suggestion is that if you have issues with specific posters, send them a private email. These nasty posts make me feel unwelcome. Obviously I don't what the history is here, but I'm afraid to post anything, I'll probably get whacked for this post.

I think there has been a lot of reluctance for anyone to become the 'editor' in the FAQ's.
And over time the FAQ's (by the way not easily known that they are even there!) have been modified and utilized by dozens of people so that they can create a recipe or a design that is their very own, and works for them.
And yes it might be very wise for a side note that things made with certain ingredients accomplish certain things, and textures. Leaves cast with a cement, sand (all grades of sand) and with or without admix will give a different texture than leaves cast with a larger or coarser aggregate added such as vermiculite, perlite, coir, fibermesh or potting soil.
This discussion always seems to cause a stir, and I know it will come up again. If this forum was called the cement plus forum, that would be confusing too, but cement is the glue to all the other ingredients that make up the things we create!
I love when new people come here and are eager to have their question answered. I realized a long time ago that because I was so psyched about this, I would jump right in and answered without neer a thought that someone else might know or have an opinion. I would get up early, go to bed late just to see if I could answer another question. I have since LEARNED over and over again there is so much creative talent here, so many have so much to offer to the discussion.
The longer I visit here the more I learn from everyone and not just about concrete, mortar, cement, fillers, bonders, etc. The community here is as diverse as the recipes that each of us thinks is the right one.
The finer the mix the finer the final product will be.
Happy casting, and experimenting,
Dena

Hi Dena
You wouldn't learn much if everyone with a different opinion was afraid to post it.:)
I'm not afraid of the opinions of others because I never want to stop learning or improving.
When I joined this group it was mostly a vanity group for less than a dozen people, with very little new information posted at all.
Most information handed out was very basic 'what to do' with no explaination of why, leaving most newbies to sink or swim on their own.

My work as a Tufa newbie is an open book and I love to share all my findings. I have no secrets. If I can do it, anyone can do it, and if someone is interested in my stuff I will help them in any way I can.
But because I'm constantly learning, an opinion I give based on my experience today can be different tomorrow.
That's why they are called opinions. Some here seem to confuse opinion with fact and that does create problems.

TE wrote " when I joined this group it was mostly a vanity group for less than a dozen people, with very little new information posted at all. Most information handed out was very basic 'what to do' with no explaination of why, leaving most newbies to sink or swim on their own"

Some members from the "vanity group" who posted ORIGINAL pictures of their fantastic work, terrific tutorials and shared their ideas for many years

Peakpoet
tango88
rustinj
Belgianpup
Billie ann
Buddyfly Marly
Butterfly Bush
DebZone8 Deb
Dena
dixiesmom
Garden Boy
gardenchicken
gottatufa
gomanngo
HALLNGARDEN
klinger8
Lazydaisy
Louisiana greetings
Mertie
mudmaker
paws4pets
redhead 70
Sarahsaid
etc, the list is too long to mention everybody, sorry

I learned a lot from you all!

Amen - and I agree so much w/ the idea of sharing, comparing, but feel my skin crawl - even though it ISN'T all that thin - when the climate changes.

I owe everything I learned to the FAQ section in this forum - and most of what I have done is NOT hypertufa, but rather some other cement based mix.

I never took offense at input - if I posted a photo - I welcomed any and all comments.

In any event -Tufaenough - you have the right idea - just letting it be known that we are a group that uses a lot of different recipes - and hypertufa is but one of them. Dena - you are right - a cement only group would be too confusing ....

.........and after a long vacation from creative pursuits, I can feel the juices beginning to stir once again.......

grins

Vicki

I have been playing in mud for over 25 years but still consider myself a newbie. Have been lurking for quite a while. When I feel confident enough to post pics, I know who's comments I will value more than others. The generosity of some members is why I'm here. A critical comment from a valued member is welcome-the others won't matter.

Ooooh! Yowie! Must've been a tough Monday for some folks...I don't think that TE was attacking anybody - just offering a valid comment. I've experienced exactly what he was talking about!

I'm a newbie to tufa/crete experimentation, but have lurked here for a while, and printed many of the valuable tips/hints/creative ideas from the folks on this forum. What pleased (and encouraged) me is the helpful, friendly atmosphere that exists...or has existed, anyway.

Having NEVER done a project like this, I'm one of the countless newbies that TE is referring to. I went to the FAQ, printed out all sorts of recipes and info, got my huge, gorgeous corrugated hosta leaf, made my TUFA recipe, cast the leaf.... and have been very puzzled (until reading this thread) as to why the details weren't as clear or distinct as other leaf photos I've seen here. (I wasn't wanting to cast a lumpy, pitted hosta leaf.) Now I know. Wrong recipe. Had a note been included in the FAQ about NOT using tufa for leaves, I'd have made the right recipe the first time!

The bowls, birdbath, grot and trough I made in the last few weeks all came out great! :) Tufa was the way to go! I now know what to mix for leaf casting, but sadly, most of the hosta and rhubarb leaves are now getting too crispy to cast (darn drought!) It kills me that I'm going to have to wait till next season to do the leaves...woulda, shoulda, coulda...

But perhaps the overly sensitive comments can be attributed to the "Monday Blues"? Hope so! Everyone here is so creative...sniping at one-another just doesn't seem justified, does it? Is it really such a big deal to add a note about leaf casting recipes in the FAQs? I mean, cement IS an ingredient in hypertufa, so a cement recipe isn't REALLY off-topic, is it? Or maybe I'm as dense as my tufa hosta leaf? :)

Enjoy the day -

- Lisa

Haven't been here for a few days due to clean-up from Katrina, but I see not much has changed, and I agree that this was a much calmer group as of a few months ago, but I still like to look and learn regardless of any comments! If I remember correctly, if we posted a pic or discussion, and we didn't explain EVERYTHING in detail, someone would be interested enough or polite enough to just ask :-) I am the worlds worst at trying to explain how I do a project, but I will try, when a question is asked.
bonnie

Hi Lisa
I wasn't attacking anyone I never have done that.
I only started this thread because I had received a number of emails from folks new to concrete art struggling with their leaf castings and asking for my help.
I don't cast leaves at all and after looking around I realised how easy it was to come to this group and get the wrong idea about it.
I offer this Weblink (not specific to leaves however)and it will help quite a bit but first we have to get past the confusion between concret/mortar and Hupertufa.:)

Scoll down the page for some great Q&A about casting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Excellent casting information

Constructive criticism is a good thing.
After I posted the picture of my first bowl in this group one long time regular posted right here in this group that she hoped it would break.
I didn't consider that very constructive.:)
Another emailed me that it looked like a cheap Christmas ornament.
To be far I have received tons of positive comments on my stuff as well, but I still found the nastiness disheartening.

Well, I never sent you any e-mails wishing your pots would break. I actually thought your colored pot on a stand was very good. I owe you a public apology for today. I was a little out of line. (personal health tragedy in family, I am very stressed right now) But...... I did e-mail you a while back that you come on a little strong and people tend to get their hackles up sometimes at your way of saying things. At the time, I did not know you were getting "hate e-mails" Personally, I wish you would quit repeating that you can't show images because you will be attacked, and just post your pictures. You talk like you have done a lot of projects, and you talk up a good theory or idea. Show us your work. And I will try not to read an "attitude" in your way of saying things. Maybe it's just how and who you are. Again, sorry I let off steam this morning. I really want this forum to be a fun place to share our projects and ideas. BB

tufaenough , it is one thing to claim that Little and Lewis encouraged you after you first posting (BTW nobody believed you), but very different to bad mouthing and accusing people on this forum.

I remember your first posting, very good job, your ponds and waterfall. I remember that somebody suggested to post it on other forum where they post similar work. It was a friendly suggestion, nobody banned you from this forum. When you started to experiment with stain, paint, etc, everybody was very nice to you, welcomed you to this forum and helped you.

You ruffled feathers when your accusation ended with L&L been kicked of from this forum . You post other people's work, very often with catalog for selling their products.
Is that OK?

BTW you have good ideas, gave us lots of information. We would like to see your work.

I would be a lot more interested in opinions on how we can prevent newbies from getting the wrong idea in regards to fine leaf casting.:)
That is the reason I started this thread.

And while you are considering your opinions on that subject give some thought to this one for the FAQ.:)
We all have our own pet recipes and all of us with a little experience can actually make a trough with Portland in a weak ratio. We can do this because we understand mixing, hydration and curing. These thinks all done properly can make even a relatively weak recipe into a strong trough.

But for newbies it's not that easy.

Surely this group can come to an agreement on a simple and strong recipe that newbies should consider for their first project if they want the best chance at success.
Here is mine, and my reasons for choosing it.

No less than 25% FRESH Portland cement. Portland cement can loss strength pretty rapidly after the bag is open. Save that old Porland in the shed for a future project.
25% sand, good sand, sold for use in concrete. Playsand is the most common and OK. Sharp mason sand is better.
No more than 50% peat. DRY peat. Dry peat is better than damp peat for strength.
If you are using a coffee can for a measure press the peat in until it just pops back to a full can. I consider that the equal of a can of Portland or sand.
Mix these dry materials together until you think they are thoroughly mixed then do it again. It is very important that everything get a nice coating of Portland BEFORE you add the water.

Use only enough water so that you can form a tennis ball sized lump in you hands that sticks together but doesn't drip water.

ADMIX. This recipe if properly cured doesn't need admix but ADMIX is a newbies best friend for other reasons.
It causes the tufa to set up faster with better early strength, meaning a much less chance of the trough breaking when removed for the mold.
This is when disaster happens so often. Just a little acrylic admix, or Elmers wood glue in the water can be the difference between success and failure.

So my Tufa recipe I consider about as foolproof as it can get is as follows.
1 part FRESH non lumpy Portland cement, no less.
1 part sand sold for use in concrete.
2 parts DRY Peat.
Mix the above very well, then mix it again.:)
Enough water as needed with 20-30% admix or wood glue added.

I welcome any tweaks that you folks might consider to make this the best user friendly recipe for newbies EVER.:)

Sounds good to me :-) I liked your Christmas colored pot. Sometimes you do come on a bit strong, and some of us are a bit more thin skinned than others, I guess it would depend on wether I have had my hormone shot for the month or not on how I take some of your comments. Seems like every now and then you (tufaenough) like to ruffle some feathers?) And I for one would also like to see pics of some of your projects.
By the way, I did make one of my first leaves with a tufa mixture, and it looks ok,and it is still in one piece,yahoo.
bonnie

Here is a link that might be useful: tufa leaf

Tufaenough, and others
In my opinion this is where the 'discussion' gets trickly. If the recipe you posted in your above post is Your best recipe for leaf casting, it certainly is not my best recipe.
If you decide to modify, add, or edit the FAQ's and add the above recipe, please do not refer to Tufa in a sentence about casting leaves, (see above where you talk about admix). Especially if you are not wanting to suggest it as an option for casting leaves. The finer the mix the finer the final product will be.
If you are wanting to provide a disertation on percentages of the identified proper leaf casting mix it may be confusing to then switch to a coffee can for measuring.
Please try your recipe for the intended use before offering it as a 'leaf casting'or other recipe.
Tufaenough,
In other posts you have painstakingly given information about what and how and how much you you use. If you have not tried leaf casting I encourage you to try it, and modify your idea of the ideal recipe to what works for you.
dena
There are times that some write me and ask questions about a certain process. I may or may not have an opinion, recipe or know about the process. But I do suggest that the person writing me also post their question here or on other forums which will elicit some ideas and a discussion about options, even if a similar question has been posted (several times) previously.
Happy casting, and experimenting.
Dena

Good morning all, I guess I am one of the "vanity posters" that was refered to. I thought we were all sharing lot's of ideas and info, and having fun.. I don't know why any one would have wanted to join in the groups if there was no info shared.
Any how, I have made leaves with many different types of mixes and have had some beautiful ones with a more traditional tufa mix, and more refined with a finer mix. Part of all this is experimenting and playing around with the mixes to see what may come of them. Vicki, I am so glad to see you back here. Maybe we will get this forum back to a bit more of a fun place, It really is meant to be fun.
Cindy

Yikes! Sorry about adding to the confusion.
The recipe I posted was not intended as a leaf casting recipe at all, but a good basic recipe for making a tufa trough or bowl.
I don't cast leaves so I don't have an opinion on the best 'roll your own' recipe for that.
I used to think topping cements would be very good (good slump for definition)but others have convinced me mortar based products give more control over the leaf edges.

If I had to give my best guess for casting a fine quality leaf I would have to say a product like QuikWall sounds pretty good. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be sold in Western Canada.

Maybe I'm wrong but there is a forum for showing off your work. It's called the Hypertufa Gallery.
I always considered this group to be a place for discussing how-to, and techniques and pictures of works in progress.
When I first came here I was surprised to see long threads being bumped month after month with absolutely no how-to content at all. Just post after post saying basically 'great job'. Those posts belong in the gallery.
It was very frustrating when you are new and trying to find practical information.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if so what is the point of the Gallery?

Man-oh-man! How do we get in this spot! Last night I was taken to a Neil Diamond concert and found myself getting irritated with a group of young people in front of me who seemed to be making fun of the experience. (I had written a grad school paper on ND's use of segue and beat, so I wasn't exactly a die-hard fan.) My irritation at these kids--their obvious ego pleasure at "making fun" of the people who WERE rabid Diamond-lovers( some of whom even cheerfully stated that they were reliving their lives fromtwenty-thirty years ago) "called up" a mischievous, aggressive piece, dormant inside this well-dressed, apparently cheerful matron. I pitched small pieces of ice from my pepsi at the backs of their necks, taking great pleasure in their consternation at not being able to figure out who was perpetrating this heinous act. It also quieted their antics. Then, I figured out that being hostile had ruined part of my evening and that I MISSED their exhuberance. So I revealed myself as the ATTACKER FROM DOOM. The end result was a great conversation, a lot of information for later short story writing, and one of the best two-hour talks Tom and I have enjoyed with kids thirty or so years younger...and no animosity. I NEVER think of myself as angry or irritable, but there I was---it's in the air these days, and it just takes a tiny bit to hook onto that energy, misunderstad, misdirect, and "ride its back." I've been contributing money to this site for two years, have tried so many things..concrete and hypertufa...some reasonably successful and some not. (Remember...I'm the one whose first project was cemented to my patio for my new husband to pry off.) I've never posted pictures..not because I'm afraid of criticism, but I'm so lame with the computer--and I have a trillion failures, which wouldn't be interesting to anybody. BUT, having said that, I rely on all of you generous souls. You tell me what works for you. I have 3-ring binders full of stuff that I can't even retrieve half the time, but my mind is full. I have learned that I can make anything if I can break it down to its parts (thanks to people who tell how they've constructed lanterns, etc..) and, then, have the creativity to see the shapes in other things. I've learned to use duct tape---rolls and rolls of duct tape (Peak). And when Tom and I lost a brother---and when I've became very ill, I received personal "atta girl" emails from zillions of you....too many to even respond. I try- and value all the suggestions, discoveries, etc..(some work--some don't--I figure the difference is humidity, brand name, but probably my inexperience, but I still try......If I can add anything from my working background, it would be that people here simply continue to share what they do, what works, what gives them pleasure, and do so with an idea of "adding to" rather than replacing anything (no problem with adding a post script--people will try and use or discard that which does or does not work anyway). I've never felt that I couldn't add my two-cents worth, even tho I am obviously not one of the "stars"..and everyone's been kind to me (but perhaps one is always kind to those of seemingly deficient intelligence)..but I would grieve if I couldn't see Dena's little fairy village....or be told privately by Peak that the way to gain access to something is this way or that.....Tufanough has given me recipes, stains, ideas...Marly is brilliant. I've left out valuable people, but faux bois---I wouldn't have known what this was without you people. I lurk here when I have moments like this-before I "swing into action"...The thing I find extraordinary is that every time that I've asked a question, usually pretty dumb, someone has painstakingly answered....either in the forum or by email. And, by the hurricane gods, if someone should make any nasty comments to anyone personally, forward them to Spike. If he/she/it doesn't squelch that garbage, I won't recontribute next year. We need to stop throwing ice (me too) and get back to playing in the mud while the weather holds. Now I've got to get thru the forum...I've been gone for a month. I hope I haven't been too presumptuous. I'm fond of all of the personalities here. V

I would love to post pictorial how-to's related to my work for those interested. It is a lot of work trying to take pictures when you are up to your elbows in mud but if the interest is there I'll do it. I'm just about to start one on my multilevel Japanese lantern made with balls but it is not Tufa. Anyone interested in this probable calamity can email me, it keeps me motivated to not quit and start something else.:)
I find it interested that some of those asking me to post pictures of my stuff here are also the most active in trying to get my Gardenweb posting privileges cancelled. I'm sorry, but that has to make me a wee bit suspicious of your motives.:)

I have been warned once already that according to the rules under which this forum was created concrete is basically off topic here.
I'm a wee bit concerned that posting pictures of my light weight concrete projects would be used by a group of people to complain on mass to Gardenweb.
This has been a very effective technique used in this group to remove 'troublesome' unwanted posters in the past.

I will however be posting pictures of a couple Hypertufa projects I have planned. There was interest in how to make a straight sided trough 14 inches deep without using a mold or any reenforcement.:)
I will do a how-to on my method for doing this in about a week.

Hi Tufaenough,

Thanks so much for the link! While I haven't had time to go through all the information contained there, I've carefully bookmarked the site so that I can learn...

Hope you didn't get the impression that I thought YOU were attacking folks here!

Far from it - it seemed to me that your valid suggestion (about a note in the FAQ regarding mortar recipes used by members to get the crisp, smooth, detailed leaves showcased on this forum, vs. the more rough, less detailed, pitted leaves that result when tufa is used), caused hackles to rise in the members who posted follow-ups. Folks' reactions confused me, cuz I didn't think your post was offensive...
I just hoped that Monday had affected 'tufa karma' here! LOL!

That said, casting media IS a matter of personal preference, and I didn't mean to irritate anyone who KNOWS they want tufa leaves, and make their mix accordingly. If I did, I apologize! It just wasn't the look I was after, and I didn't know....cuz all I saw were pics of those detailed, gorgeous, leaves....and the recipes for tufa in the FAQ!

I'm counting on learning from - and hopefully, when (if?) I figure this out, sharing with - ALL of the members here. Like painting, drawing, weaving, there are so many ways to reach the desired result!

On a side note, the other items that I made with tufa pretty much followed your basic tufa recipe in this post. Is that luck, or what?! I played with adding some Copperas to some of the recipes, and am hoping for a nice blue-green patina at some point. We'll see...my pieces are in a water bath right now. Once done, I'll borrow a digital camera, and figure out the appropriate place to post pics! ;)

Thanks to all who contribute info for newbies like me!

- Lisa

Ooops! I fogot one thing....Thank you, Louisiana Greetings, for the link to your tufa leaf photo. It's gorgeous! I'd love to know what you chose to color the leaf, as it seems to have stayed very vivid and rich. If that's off-topic to this thread, feel free to email me directly!

Perhaps if I had access to something that large, the overall scale of the intentional 'defects'created by tufa recipes wouldn't seem so overwhelming to me? The hosta leaf I cast was only about 10" long, and maybe 5" or so wide, so every pit seemed ENORMOUS! LOL!

Happy Tufa-ing!

- Lisa

Hi Lisa
Thanks for the kind words.
I still have hope the terrific leaf casters in this group can get together and write a paragraph or too on the best approch a newbie can take to have success making fine leaf casting.

Hi All
Well I'm a a newbie and I appreciate all the info I got from all of you especially Dena and tufaenough. It's a lot of reading as I have been reading 3 hours a night for the past 4 nights on the subject of Hypertufa and especially Fake Rock but the only message that really ever bothered me negatively was the message from the long-winded guy in the Fake Rock forum that wondered why people didn't just buy rock instead of making it. Wow he just didn't get it.

I'm a 5-year (mostly)lurker here. When I got around to leaf casting I wasn't necessarily confused about tufa, but had to search to find the basics. I applaud putting leaf casting info, or a link thereto, in the FAQ. And I agree with TE, in recent years it's been tough sledding for newbies. If we have room for a gallery, do we have room for a topical compendium?

So who the heck does edit the FAQ here?

How about the Hypertufa, Leaf Casting, Concrete forum? The three names work great for the Soil, Compost, Mulch forum. I would estimate 4% of the traffic is on soils, 1% or less on mulch, and 95% on compost. Just a thought.

I am also a newbie. Only been a member for a couple days, but been lurking for quite some time. I am also very surprised to learn that the leaf casting is not done with hypertufa. I just assumed it was, because it is discussed so much in this forum. Can someone please tell me what you do use to make the leaf castings?
Thank you for any info you are willing to share.
Debby

Hi Debby I'm new here two
I have to say that jannoel has a good point.
maybe some thing like Hypertufa/and other concrete
I am a newbie,I have not made any thing yet hope to start
soon,trying to learn a little befor I start and I thought
that the leaves that I have seen on here where hypretufa
always nosnod

I use Portland and sand 50/50 to make my leaves.
small leaves about 1/4 " thick
Just a quick note, and it's already been said...

Start leaves now! Winter is coming and there won't be any!
Make 'em now and paint'em later.

Marcia

Marcia, Thank you so much for posting your "recipe". I'm hoping I can get a couple of these made soon. Working on something else right now, but hopefully as soon as I finish it I can start some leaves and then I will have them to work on this winter when I can't be outside making them. lol
Thank's again, Debby

You can make leaf casting using hypertufa(portland cement, sand & peat moss). It depends on what look you're going for.
Also the word "hypertufa" has come to mean a lot of different things on the forum over the years. The original recipe was portland cement, sand and peat moss. Now people add many different things like coir, vermiculite, perlite,etc as long as you are happy with your ingredients and it works for you have fun. Billie