Container Soils in general
A Soil Discussion on this forum

The gel on the bottom is a bad idea - will be counter-productive, as would any 'drainage layer', unless your only intent is to reduce the amount of soil req'd to fill the container.

If you familiarize yourself with the soil threads, you'll see that the cocopeat would pretty much negate the reason for making the gritty mix (maximized aeration but with good water retention). Perhaps you can find pumice (lava rock), crushed granite, calcined DE (diatomaceous earth), or other gritty material. Ideally, you'll be able to find 2 materials with the right particle size, one with internal porosity, the other with no internal porosity so you can =/- these ingredients in combination with CHCs to get the ideal water retention. It sounds though, like you'll be facing an uphill battle.

Al

Hem,

If I may pls. take a moment, since I've tried to answer some of the questions on your others threads? In my opinion, you are making growing these plants way too complicated.

While I don't follow all of Al's technical discussions, I am a particular fan of the discussion of the perched water table & have sometimes used the dry wick to help ensure proper drainage.

I can tell intuitively that the polymer gels are a bad idea, as they are intended to hold & retain water, whereas what we want to do is facilitate & expedite drainage.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but I feel you'd really benefit by keeping things much simpler rather than focusing on special fertilizers, special soils, special pots.

You have special advantage being in the tropics, that's fabulous for the plants (I grew up in the tropics & remember the plants well, especially how well they grew w/ little or no effort). I believe they'll grow much more easily without half the extra care needed in less ideal climate.

If it were me, I'd put that special advantage to good use & try to focus on growing the actual plants; use some basic AV soil (if you can find it) & add extra perlite, since you may be having trouble finding some of Al's suggested components.

Analogous to comments on the other thread about buying all the gadgets, it's really overkill (meaning way too much). I'd take advantage of the tropics & check around w/ your friends & neighbors. Notice who's got lush & happy looking plants & perhaps try to befriend those people & ask them for growing tips.

I don't disagree with Karen. I'm not being sarcastic or a jerk, but it seems like you're pretty new at plants & I would hate to see your enthusiasm dulled because you couldn't find the ingredients for a particular soil. That said though, there are a large number of folks who WERE just beginners at hobby growing and had had various difficulties who tried the gritty soil and really loved it.

I think you would benefit considerable by gaining solid knowledge about the principles of how water behaves in containers, along with what is good and what is bad when it comes to soils. This will show you what to look out for and what to avoid. Asking questions can also lead you to successful strategies for coping with less than ideal soils. In the meanwhile, you can be on the lookout for materials suitable for building a durable mix that will retain its structure and air-holding ability for the life of the planting.

Perhaps you would be able to look for, and be able to find someone with more than a basic knowledge of soils/container media in your area. I might suggest that you actually walk into a botanic garden or public plant-related enterprise and ask to talk to the person there that takes care of their containerized plants or the one that builds specialized soils. I've established friendships with several people in these positions. We help each other often & regularly exchange new information and ideas. They are usually very willing to share what they know. They also usually have the valuable information that can lead you to sources for what is available locally.

If you can locate a bonsai club or practitioner in your area, the right person can be a treasure trove of information about where to find soil ingredients. I'll set myself aside from the treasure trove thing so I can say that I owe at least 90% of what I know about soils, probably physiology and many other aspects of plant husbandry, too, to the research I realized was going to be necessary if I was going to be able to keep large plants alive in tiny containers. Accomplished bonsai practitioners will always be excellent container gardeners - if they weren't, they couldn't be accomplished, so seek them out for the info you're looking for. Who knows - you might even fall in love with those lovely little trees.

Al

Al / Karen - just want to put things in perspective here - all and I mean ALL nurseries here grow plants in dirt and only dirt. Its a miracle how they get things to survive let alone grow and they all manage to do it. I must probably be the only guy in my area (or even state!!!) who uses the soilless mix (the rest of it probably gets exported or something). Therefore, I really cannot expect any help from nursery salesmen / botanists or well meaning neighbours. But you guys are probably correct - I seem to be trying way too hard - container gardening which is supposed to be relaxing is actually causing me stress!!! And I can now narrow down the reason to me being unable to keep a spider plant alive. I've single-handedly managed to kill six of them in a row. I'm probably going to give up on those and grow pet rocks instead!!!

Don't give up, hem_krish. Overdoing can be common among newbies, I did it myself six years ago and can fall into it again even now. I sort of enjoyed all the fussing, it was part of the hobby for me, but certainly if you are feeling stressed, its time to slow down. Al's two threads explain things very well - it took me awhile to get used to what he said here about principals rather than specific ingredients, but once I did, things began to fall into place. I use a mix that is as close as I can come to Al's, using ingredients that I am able to find in my area, and my plants are doing fine. Enjoy yourself and don't stress, you don't have to get it right the first time out.

Eileen

Hi
Curious as to where in India you're located?? Are you in monsoon areas?? Would think Cactus succulents would be tough due to the humidity?? Indoors or out??
So many climate zones in the area.
gary

I live in a state called Andhra Pradesh. It's not humid here at all as its not in a coastal area. Summers can get HOT. Cacti should grow pretty well here - a sunny south window or shaded outdoors I would say.

If it wasn't so expensive to send any igrediant you are looking for from my area, I would for you...

It is good to see such a determination to take care of your plants, and coming here is the best place to be, since seems like no one in your area can help you.
Hey don't feel, when I first starting to look for the igrediants you are looking for around here, people had no clue what I was looking for.
Have you ever tried going to e-bay and get some pumice? That is where I get mine. You can get alot from e-bay.
Al makes ALOT of sense and it took me a while to understand everything. Sometimes my mind tends to forget alot and I have to re read or re ask...
I wish you the best. Do NOT give up. You will find what you need!!!
Don't over stress yourself...Look at this as afun challange, and you will suceed!!:-)

MIke

Thanks for your vote of confidence Mike! I hope I find all the ingredients or atleast the substitutes. I sometimes wish I could be in the US just to buy this stuff - but then living in India has its advantages too - plant here cost the equivalent of a dollar or two. I read somewhere that plants out there cost even 20-30$!!! Anyway, I'll stay in touch, am determined to do this...

Hypothetically speaking, if I could lay my hands on coconut coir chips, crushed red brick and granite chips, would this serve the same purpose as Al's gritty mix? Could I add my soilless mix (peat + perlite + vermiculite) to this too?

It's all about size. If the size of the material you are working with is in the 2 - 4 mm size, it will work. It's ok if 1 of the 3 basic ingredients is a little smaller or larger than the others, but at least 2 of the 3 ingredients should be in the desired size range. Adding a peat/perlite/vermiculite blend to a mix designed specifically to be well-aerated would negate the very reason for using the soil.

Al

Cool - got it!. I'm curious as to what these individual components do - I am substituting cocohusk chips for the pine bark, granite for the chicken grit (or is it the same) and the brick for the lava rock. I know granite is for aeration, cocochips for the organic component - but what does lava rock do? Isn't that for aeration as well - then why dont we just use more of one ingredient instead of having 3 separate ones?

That's all explained in the links I left you. In the gritty mix, Turface tends to hold lots of water, pine or fir bark - a medium amount of water, and the crushed granite - little water. By keeping the organic component (bark) at 1/3 or less of the total mix for structural stability, and varying the other two ingredients, you can adjust the water-holding ability of the soil to fit your cultural conditions and growing habits. Options are good.

Al

One last question before I head out tomorrow to hunt for the ingredients - Will curshed marble serve the same purpose as crushed granite? I may have a better chance of finding marble. I use hard water to water my plants. Not sure if the marble will alter the PH levels of the soil.

The marble is mostly CaCO3 (calcium carbonate), and in large pieces (when talking about the solubility of CaCO3, 'large' is anything larger than a grain of table salt) is very insoluble & will do little to change pH. The problem is, you're not going to find it in pieces small enough to be useful in soil. You need a product that has most of it's pieces concentrated around that 1/8" size. Adding an ounce or so of vinegar/gallon to your irrigation water can neutralize some/all of your water's alkalinity & help stop the normal upward creep of your medium's pH.

Al

I finally went shopping yesterday and managed to find some, but not all of the substitutes. Unfortunately, coco husk chips is something I could not find. Here's my final list of items (sorry about the poor quality of pic - best I could do with my cell phone) :

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FnDTxnlY1D_jbmMN8twWpQ?feat=directlink

Clockwise from top - 1) marble chips, 2) soilless potting mix containing peat + perlite + vermiculite in equal proportions 3) stone chips 4) brick chips 5) Coco peat.

The coin in the centre measures exactly one inch in diameter.

1) I need to make two mixes - one for the succulents and one for the the other plants like peace lily, syngonium etc. What ingredients should I use and in what proportion? The soilless mix is in relatively short supply, I've got the others in plenty. I've manually crushed the brick to this size - can make it larger or smaller.

2) I am sure that the marble , stone and brick chips are not sterile. I got them from quarries. Do I need to wash them?

1) I don't think you need 2 mixes. I grow all my houseplants, succulents/cacti, and the woody material I'm growing on for bonsai in a very porous & gritty soil (the gritty mix), and it works very well - better than anything I've ever used, and I've used a LOT of different soils. I would crush the brick finer and use 2-4 mm pieces
5 parts 2-4 mm brick
1 part marble
1 part well-rinsed coco fiber

If you really think you need a second soil, try
5 parts well-rinsed coco fiber
2 parts 2-4 mm brick
1 part marble

If you have the means to crush the marble to half the size it is (2-4 mm), it would be an advantage.

When you adopt this/these soil(s), we need to discuss what's available to you for fertilizer & work out a nutrition supplementation program, too.

2) No need to be concerned with sterility of your soil components, but it would be helpful to rinse off the dust so it doesn't migrate to the bottom of the pot & slow drainage. Be sure to discard the mineral fines (smaller than 2 mm) or use elsewhere.

Al

Crushing brick is tedious work! I crushed some yesterday and it took me ages to do it. I'll do some over the weekend again. Unfortunately, I have no means to crush the marble any finer. Will have to live with what I have unless I find another source.

I am assuming the second soil recipe is for non succulent houseplants. Will eliminating brick in this recipe make the soil more draining than before?

I'll do some potting up and keep you posted. Thanks!

I still don't think you need the second recipe, but if you're intent on using it - just substitute perlite for the crushed brick. The brick INCREASES drainage, so eliminating it will make your soil more water-retentive

Al

Oh I'm sorry - I was not clear before. By eliminating brick, I meant replacing it with the marble bits. If I use 5 parts cocopeat and 3 - 5 parts marble bits, will the mix be more draining than a 5:2:1 mix of cocopeat, brick and marble. I'm asking this because I have a sack of the marble chips ready; the brick I have to crush myself. Seems to me the brick is porous and thus holds more water; the granite is less porous and therefore more draining. I've also noticed that the cocopeat / marble chips is more aerated than the soilless mix that I have. Also, its more heavy and the plants should hold up well (more support) in it.