Cabjoe:

I haven't tried Jupiter, although have heard some of the same good things about it that you have. However, I have grown both seeded and seedless Concord, and there was no comparison in productivity. The seedless was such a shy bearer that I began calling it grapeless, and eventually took it out. The seeded Concord has its good and bad years, but in a good year, as 2006 was, we made over 6 gallons of pure juice from one vine using the steamer/juicer.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I'm confused by the post.I've read that the Jupiter variety is seedless , semi-crisp and not slipskin.

Murky,
You're right in that they are no slip skins. But as for seeded/seedless, I'm not sure if you're correct or not. Follow the link and they have it listed twice. Once as seedless and another as just Univ of Arkansas.

http://www.rakgrape.com/abc_vines.php?get=J

Jupiter is definitely a seedless grape.

I was going to pick up a Reliance (local) and order a Jupiter to plant. I guess it won't matter much which Jupiter I order from Double a Vineyard then..

Thanks for everyone's input... I still wish it was a slip skip like my Korean grape.

If the same vinyard is listing 2 different Jupiter grapes, one listed as seedless, and the other with seeds, I wouldn't by the grapes or anything else from them.

I second murky's satements, and so here's the site where to get grape cuttings for propagation. Quite reasonable prices! Has many good information on grape growing and different varieties. Jupiter is definitely listed in only the seedless section.

murky: what is the best SEEDED grape from the list? What I mean best is that Flavor is my number one criteria, then followed by disease resistance and care-free (not a lot of pruning) maintenance for a yard with itty bitty space.

Thanks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Grape Cuttings for Sale during dormant season.

Lon Rombough on JoeReal's link is a great source for grape cuttings. I bought some cuttings from him earlier this year, and had a 75-100% take with all but one variety. If you prefer rooted vines, Ray Ethel, listed at the bottom of the above link, has vines that are really large and vigorous for first year vines, with three and four branches each, at affordable prices. They arenÂt listed on his website, but he offered some of the newer varieties of seedless grapes, such as Thomcord, Black Diamond, Diamond Muscat, Summer Royal, Dovine, as well as Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, Neptune. Perhaps you could plant four in a hole, and yank the ones you donÂt like.

Wow Joe, I'm honored, but I think its pretty funny that you are asking me advice on fruit.

I've probably spent hundreds of hours reading in the last 2 years or so but my actual experience is quite limited. I'm only getting my first grapes this season and mine are all seedless except for my Muscat Ottonel. I'll be happy to share my experiences once I have them.

At the All About Fruit show last year they had dozens of varieties to sample but being a novice I only allowed myself a couple of hours and my taste buds were pretty shot from the hundred or so apples I tasted. I didn't really give the grapes a chance.

I've heard raves about Jupiter (seedless :) from more than one source. I haven't really considered seeded grapes, and I'm not sure Oregon grown samples would be representative of what you'd get growing them in California.

Disease resistance is important to me. I used to have a Gewurtz, but it was a lot more susceptible than all of my other grapes so I cut it loose and put in a Triple Crown blackberry instead.

Are you interested in them for fresh eating, or is it juice or wine?

Sorry for my longwinded non-answer. Hopefully others will chime in here. You might try the HOS website. There are a lot of grape growers in the Willamette Valley and I'm sure there are many in the membership who've tasted most of the ones on the list.

I'm sure Plumfan has tasted virtually all of them, since he's told me stories of visiting vinyards. He's one of the Jupiter endorsers.

I endorse it too,if we are talking about,table,eating grapes.It is the most flavorfull and easy to grow,possible.
I do not know if it will make a good wine or not.

Herman,

Forget wine.. I can get a bottle of Ripple, Thunderbird, Boone's Farm or whatever cheap! ;)

What I want are table grapes....

Joereal,

If you are looking for a seeded grape with intense fruity flavor and good disease resistance (probably extremely resistant in your climate), I would suggest you try a T.V. Munson hybrid called 'Delicatessen'. Lon sells out of this one quickly, so order cuttings early next year. It may a little more vigorous than what you are looking for, but it is said to have fantastic flavor in warm climates. I planted a couple this spring, so maybe I'll get some fruit next year.

Thank you people for all of your suggestions. I will of course graft those plants to my existing grape vines. I have successfully bark grafted Jupiter grapes early this year and it is bearing fruits already for me. One thing nice about Lon Rombough's grape cuttings that he is selling patented cultivars with just anywhere from $0.10 to $0.25 Royalty fee per cutting. I wish all other patent holders can sell budwoods or propagating materials like this and it will be no problem for us hobbyists to comply. Right now with other fruit trees, you will have to buy the whole plant when you only needed the budwood to be grafted to you existing plants and it is a big waste of money and time and the patent holders only gets the same amount.

Anyway, keep the suggestions coming, I may graft up to 10 grape cultivars together. I think it is about time that I would have multi-grafted grapes too. My existing rootstock is quite good when it comes to our soil, but the fruits are not that good.

I make wine, a lot of fruit wines. I also make grape wines from someone else's grape vines (friends usually, and have access to Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Zinfandel, Chardonnay, Viognier). I wouldn't make wine out of my grape vines in the yard as currently I am not producing enough. I have all the other 350 or so non-grape fruit cultivars, and you should imagine what is available from 725 sq ft of backyard orchard.

The main reason that I mentioned SEEDED grapes is to get the added health benefits from eating the grape seeds too. One of them is that it restores some color back to my grey hair, LOL. But the tannins in the seeds and some antioxidants are good too. Plus I would be eating more than my kids if the grapes are seeded. Anyway, I am used to eating guava seeds, passion fruit seeds, and so grape seeds are not a problem for me. It's sad that people want seedless this and that all the time in the market. But don't get me wrong, I too would eat seedless grapes with the same enthusiasm if it has unique or excellent flavors. Based on continued research and development, after achieving the seedless character, the researches are putting back the flavor and Jupiter grape is one such example of excellent tasting seedless grapes.

Regards to all,

Joe

A disadvantage to Rombough's grape cuttings is that he requires a 5 cutting minimum order for each variety ordered, and with a 75-100% rooting take, you wind up with a lot of extra grape vines.
Another advantage to seeded grapes, is that you can plant them in the front yard, even along the sidewalk, and be confident the neighbors, spoiled by seeded grapes, will leave them alone, after one taste.

At the farmer's market I would say that most anyone younger than about 25 years will not buy or eat seedless grapes or watermelon. They just won't. You run into some real interesting opinions and views on food from young people. Many of them just have no clue what it takes to produce food.
Not trying to hijack the thread, but alta's statement about the neighbors not bothering your seeded grapes just struck me as truth and something to think about for you city dwellers.
I haven't tasted a Jupiter yet, but I sure like Flame Seedless.

Correction: that should have read "seeded" grapes, of course. Pardon me.

Joe Real:A very flavorfull easy to grow,Black,deasese resistant plus,seeded grape is Alwood.I am very pleased with it,here in this GRAPE NOT GROWING region.

I highly recommend the Jupiter. This is one of the few keepers and it also makes wonderful juice, in case you cannot eat them all fresh. I suppose the wine would be outstanding as well.

One little thing I have noticed about its propagation is that it is not all that easy to root a cutting. If you can take cuttings in January or February and soak the lower end of the cuttings in a can of water for a month, and only after that stick them in the ground, they seem to root much better. To just prune the plant and stick prunings in dirt does not give a very high success rate. I have read somewhere that all grape cuttings can benefit by an extended soaking (bottom 3 or 4 inches with a node for the bottom portion: nodes are where the roots come out.). I leave the can of water out in the cold weather, but do not let it freeze. I do not bring it into the house at all.

Herman and others
I am looking to replace my row of 7 year old Chambourcin vines. I have never sprayed to control black rot and as a result only had one year where I was able to get the grapes thru to harvest. My one Concord vine produces without spraying. I was planning on the Alwood but the Jupiter sounds good too. I am in South Central PA with a southern exposure. The trellis is somewhat windswept in winter but the Chambourcin have been hardy. What has been your experience with disease or disease control on the Jupiter and Alwood? Do you spray and if so what and when? Would like to keep it organic if possible with no or little spray. I had intentions of wine making with the Chambourcin but table grapes, juice and jelly sound good too. Any tips on how to pull the Chambourcin vines prior to replanting? Any other comments or thoughts about these two varities.
Thanks
Jim
PS Herman, I follow your fig pinching technique and have tons of figs each year. Thanks for the tip.

plumfan,

I got 100% (2 for 2) success rooting dormant Jupiter cuttings under lights inside. I put them in a tray with roughly 2x2x6" cells under a humidity dome with a heat mat.

I was doing figs and just put those in for good measure.

I didn't do any soaking or use rooting hormone. I think I used a potting mix cut with perlite and maybe pumice and I spritzed the cuttings with 10% Chlorox solution before setting them in.

Good to "see" you Murky,

You mentioned a concept that is pretty important, I think. That being oxygen access to the rooting node of a grape stick. I consider oxygen pretty important, as plant tissue does much better with O2 than with anaerobic environ. Your use of perlite/pumice was a good idea.

Sometimes I use a big heavy pry bar in the garden when I plant grape cuttings. I stab it into the ground and gently pull it out, leaving a nice deep skinny hole. I then position the grape cutting and backfill with sand. I think the sand allows for better oxygen access in my otherwise kinda gummy soil.

You say you did not soak your cuttings. But I have it on very good authority that those had been soaking in a can of water for up to two months before you even got them! :^)

touche Plumfan ;)

I guess I had figured the soaking was to affect the portion that is submerged.

Now I'm thinking it is meant to ensure that the whole stick is hydrated, correct?

Hi Jim:Alwood is best for people that want a seeded black grape for the health benefit The seed contain.That is why I mentioned it to Joe Real.
It does not mean is more desirable than Jupiter.
The Concord you got is one of theDeasese resistant Concord.
Note :That there are more than one strain of Concord.
Peoples introduced Bad strains of Concord,by growing it from Seeds.That is why is not ok to grow from seeds Unless you know what you are doing.
I had my first Concord bought in 1993,and it was nothin but black rot.
Then i bought another one and i discarded the old one.
I have no more problem ,and I believed i got the original one this time.
This alwood is as deasese resistant as the good Concord,but has a more complex flavor wich appeal better to my taste buds.That is why i recomend it over original Concord.
Also Alwood is unique in Flavor and you Know when you got it while concord are many strayns,and easy to get a bad one.
I Spray it only two times a year one before flowering and second time when grapes are like pepper bids(black).I only use Copper spray,or Bordeaux mixture,wich are organic fungicide.Jupiter is best if you do not like seeds.Peace

Murky, I think both your ideas are correct. Soaking softens the tissue area in the node region, and perhaps alerts primordial rooting tissue that it is going to be called on for activity, plus soaking helps keep the whole stick moist. I think that having that fresh-cut end sticking out of water gives off a certain amount of moisture until something inside (vessels) heal up and quit emitting moisture to the atmosphere. Until that happens, the stick can pull in moisture from the can of water.

I have a neighbor who stuck 40 sticks in soil and thought he was gonna strike it rich, with these Jupiters. He did not bother soaking them. Only one of them survived!

In 1854, David Mirassou's great-great-great grandfather Pierre introduced Pinot Noir to Santa Clara County by planting his prized grape cuttings he'd brought from his native France. It took some creative thinking to survive the journey. When the captain told Pierre he could no longer use up water for his grapes, Pierre negotiated to buy the ship's entire supply of potatoes. By inserting the grape cuttings into the potatoes to keep them moist, he was able to keep the grapes alive, and become the first to import the classic French varietal.

Here is a link that might be useful: Grapes and Potatoes

I have several seedless grapes that have produced for me. Reliance was always everyones favorite until my Jupiter vines began to produce. Jupiter is a great eating grape far better than the weak flavored Mars and better than Vanessa, Concord seedless, Candice, Einset, Marquis and Saturn.

Thats all the seedless grapes I grow except Himrod that hasn't produced for me yet.

Jupiter grapes are good but be careful because they can attract Phylloxera to your garden.

I google searched and found this article on phylloxera (information and how to tell if your vines are infected):

http://hubpages.com/_reader/hub/Grape-Vinyards-and-Phylloxera

Here is a link that might be useful: Phylloxera Infestations in Grape Vinyards